Since the Introverted Dual is so Often Passed Over by the Extraverted Dual~

[waddup]

I think I understand what you are trying to say, but I still think Ne is related to having a "broad knowledge base." Speaking of myself, specifically, I cannot follow an interest if it is only further repetitive, with the main pattern(s) not changing at all. That sounds extremely dull and uninteresting. Ne users do seek out several different interests, which contributes to their "broad knowledge base" - even if it isn't "deep" as you claimed - though I would argue that Ne is complemented by other function(s) that certainly deepen the understanding to a satisfactory level for the Ne user.

If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree...

But yes, repetitiveness sounds really dreary and is probably an anathema to most Ne users. I just can't do it. I can't. I cannot follow something if it doesn't interest me anymore. Perhaps SX is involved in this as well (not because I am SX dominant, or anything like that, but because the Sexual instinct is often the "driving force" if you will, when it comes to what many people spend most of their energy on, in general).

There is a difference between knowledge and fan facts.

Just because you visited a Auto parts store and learned about your engine doesn’t make you knowledgeable in automechanics.

This is what squark is alluding to. Knowing a little bit of everything doesn’t make you knowledgeable in everything.

[waddup]

(unamused)



Yeah, I know. Which is why I offered a reason why they do deepen it, though not by seeking out the same of something they have clearly gotten bored of, but by bringing in their own individual/original framework (Ti or Fi for instance, Ni would also play a role) in order to deepen their understanding of it.

For sure. Still, we all know those Ne types of any colour who arrive on the scene a little out of their depth. (As all people can yes yes yes we get it) aka: I read a book once and now Im basically a pro.

Did you spend the hundred practise hours in highschool math learning the material? Boring, but necessary and also teaches you how to logic your way through problems. Knowledge also comes imo from experience, which isnt something you can just “opportunitize” your way into.

[waddup]

I don't know, I haven't encountered an Ne user who is like that, if they are out there. I certainly don't do that. People may perhaps be reticent about how much they know or don't know, specially if they have E5 influence, but I wouldn't brag I know more about something than I do.

That’s good : ) What I said is in the literature and I’ve noticed it as well.

[squark]

I didn't even look. Just skimmed to grab a couple things which was plenty enough to demonstrate. I also brought in information that has been tested that is outside of socionics. So, if it's true (and it is) that people are happier in relationships with others who share their own degree of openness, then either openness (and the facet of openness involving intellectual curiosity) is not Ne, or socionics has relationship dynamics all wrong. Either answer is fine with me.

[Adam Strange]

... So, if it's true (and it is) that people are happier in relationships with others who share their own degree of openness, ...

@squark, do you have a link?

[squark]

@squark, do you have a link?

You can start HERE The sections on work groups, strangers and friends, and marriage and family all have information about relationships,

and then there's several pages of references at the end of the chapter where you can look through actual studies and also use those as jumping off points to find more information as well. Or if you'd rather, just a google scholar search brings up quite a few studies.

[sbbds]

I didn't even look.

Sigh

Just skimmed to grab a couple things which was plenty enough to demonstrate. I also brought in information that has been tested that is outside of socionics.

*slow clap*

They weren’t related to Socionics claims at all.

I noticed you were careful to no longer try directly repeating your previous claim that Ne has nothing to do with (intellectual) curiosity.

Oh but we can just forget about that and move on.

[squark]

Sigh

Because within seconds I was able to prove the premise incorrect, there was no need to go any further.

They weren’t related to Socionics claims at all.

They are directly related to the claims that hotelambush is making. Directly. I'm sorry you're unable to see this.

I noticed you were careful to no longer try directly repeating your previous claim that Ne has nothing to do with (intellectual) curiosity.

Oh but we can just forget about that and move on.

Nope. I'll repeat it right here. Ne has nothing to do with intellectual curiosity. Any type can have intellectual curiosity, and it's found in different degrees within individuals of any type, and among all of the types of the socion.

[sbbds]

Because within seconds I was able to prove the premise incorrect, there was no need to go any further.

Lol did you set a timer?

They are directly related to the claims that hotelambush is making. Directly. I'm sorry you're unable to see this.

No, they arent. Because they aren’t related to your or other claims on Ne. I guess you can’t show me or others how in a few seconds?

Nope. I'll repeat it right here. Ne has nothing to do with intellectual curiosity. Any type can have intellectual curiosity, and it's found in different degrees among all of the types of the socion.

“Nothing to do with” contradicts “found in different degrees”. I’m sorry you’re unable to see this.

[sbbds]

I clarified my post as you were quoting it because I knew you'd misinterpret it otherwise. And you did. I said earlier, and I'll say again, one Ne lead can have more or less intellectual curiosity than another Ne lead, so yes "found in different degrees." This is not saying that Ne types are more or less intellectually curious than other types which is how you're reading it.

I didn’t misinterpret you, you explained yourself wrong the first time and had to go back and correct your post.

I notice that you didn’t answer or comment on any other of my comments about your flawed/lacking arguments and my touching upon your flippant way of responding to some others in spite of them.

[sbbds]

@squark BTW, I was even kind enough to paraphrase your words for you. What you actually said was “Curiosity has nothing to do with Ne”. Which I disproved with source Socionics material and succinctly explained how and why it does seem to directly have to do with it. Within “seconds” you could say lol.

You have your opinions, I guess. They aren't backed up by anything though.

[Lord Panda]

I'm sure each function is curious in its own way. There's plenty of stuff I'm curious about but I'm not sure if I'm an intellectually curious person, unless the subject matter happens to align with my interests. I can imagine any type being curious.

[Minde]

I'm fairly confident that I'm currently with an LSE. There's been nothing that's pointed me away from it. So here are my thoughts based on the assumption that I am in a dual relationship:

1. Entering into their world.
2. Emulating or at least visibly expressing value for the dual's ego functions.
3. Crisis or some sort of external trial that encourages or forces teamwork.
4. Leaning into your own ego functions.

As I hypothesized in the Delta Lounge, I think one helpful way for duals to encounter and then notice each other is for one of them to leave their own comfort zone and enter that of the other. For Deltas, the explorer probably would have to be the Ne-egos (EIIs and IEEs) because the STs seem to tend to find what they like and then stick with it (sometimes for entirely too long).

I met my LSE when I organized a fairly significant hike up a mountain. I enjoy the outdoors, but it's not my comfort zone and hiking a mountain is not something I'd done before. I have done organizing of people, though, so it wasn't entirely unfamiliar. I was looking to increase my level of physical fitness as well as literally expand my horizons.

The group of hikers needed to be a certain size, and some of those who had initially said they'd go dropped out. So one of my friends recommended this one guy as a potential gap-filler. I'd heard his name before by some of our mutual friends, always well-spoken of and he seemed like a reliable person. Plus he had tons of hiking experience and was even a volunteer SAR. So I accepted him as a member of the hiking group.

We had one pre-hike planning meeting (he, our mutual friend, and myself), which is when I first actually met him. I almost immediately determined he was Te-ego, if only because of his amazingly endless patience with my deluge of data- and Te-opinion-gathering questions, lol. When I feel unsteady (as I did with this hike) I become a data glutton and much to my delight he was a fountain of knowledge. For his part, later he commented that he was impressed with my planning prowess, the thoroughness and how I communicated to everyone.

Long story short, while on the hike he ended up needing to rescue me. It was very, very embarrassing to me, and while it strongly highlighted my pathetic Se, my overall response to the situation made a good impression on him.

Later, when we had a chance to debrief, I took the opportunity to try to repay him by active listening and letting him unravel the feeling side of things. I figured if he was indeed LSE then Fi would be a nice gift. I don't think he realized at the time what exactly was happening, but after that conversation was easy and he started seeming to seek it out.

It was a few months before we started dating, but that entire experience put us into contact and definitely put me into his awareness. Without it, he probably still wouldn't know me and I'd only know of him (and probably just admire from afar).

[Xaiviay]

@Minde you shared some really really good advice, thank you That's very helpful.

Congratulations on your dual relationship!!
*currently thinking of where in town I can go to meet ILEs in their element*

[Xaiviay]

@silke After thinking it over, I've realized that I should have shown more appreciation and gratitude for your response to my thread. You had a lot of constructive input. I didn't mean to be so rude and dismissive (I was in a 'trouble-shooting' mode of thinking) but I see now that my response was inconsiderate - and selfish. I am sorry, and I thank you for your advice and input on here.

[silke]

@silke After thinking it over, I've realized that I should have shown more appreciation and gratitude for your response to my thread. You had a lot of constructive input. I didn't mean to be so rude and dismissive (I was in a 'trouble-shooting' mode of thinking) but I see now that my response was inconsiderate - and selfish. I am sorry, and I thank you for your advice and input on here.

At this point it seems like our individual values and social interaction styles are too incompatible. I will refrain from responding to your threads in the future, since it looks like we cannot achieve an understanding.

[Exodus]

@silke After thinking it over, I've realized that I should have shown more appreciation and gratitude for your response to my thread. You had a lot of constructive input. I didn't mean to be so rude and dismissive (I was in a 'trouble-shooting' mode of thinking) but I see now that my response was inconsiderate - and selfish. I am sorry, and I thank you for your advice and input on here.

Why are you apologizing? silke was the one who randomly lashed out at you for no reason...

[sbbds]

@silke what the fuck

[silke]

@silke what the fuck

the fuck in what, guess you deleted the "sorry" which i don't mind

[sbbds]

the fuck in what, guess you deleted the "sorry" which i don't mind

Lol. Ok BBL

[Skepsis]

Cookies. Chocolate Chip.

[sbbds]

With Nuts

[Xaiviay]

@Venus Rose and @thehotelambush I appreciate your support. I just think it was rude of me, to write so much about how I didn't like the idea Silke was suggesting, without showing more appreciation for her input (especially since I'm asking for feedback in this thread). @silke However, it was not my intent to criticize you personally. But, if you don't want to talk with me anymore, that's fine. Maybe you're right about how we don't have enough in common social-style-wise.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I do think IEIs get crushes way too easily, though it's not because we are naive morally perfect angels like some people think (we're not EIIs or SEIs) - it's because we secretly hate most ppl and wish a piano would fall on their heads. But we lack the Se/Te to get that point across, and we manipulatively can act like better people than we are with other functions. So yeah, then when we do finally meet somebody we don't loathe, we can get too excited and idealistic.

ILE/SLE is good balancing force for us, cuz they accept people more neutrally.

[YXPR]

I often feel like SLEs are too busy for me. Like irl they always seem to be doing something very important or going some place they really have to be.

I myself am never busy. Even when I'm doing something important I'm not busy.

At work there is an SLE that always come to shake my hand even if I am on the phone or working on something.

When I was at school there were an SEE and an SLE that would always shout my name out of nowhere from afar even though I was talking to somebody else. It fascinated me.

From my end I just wouldn't dare to come and disturb them like that. They seem to be so impactful whatever they are doing that I don't want to get in the way of that. I would rather leave them with other serious people and do my thing on my own.

I wouldn't say that I feel like they are too good for me though. It just makes me feel like we are not made to get along so well.

[lemontrees]

Lol.

So I've experienced ppl who I thought were "too good for me" but them actually being nice and emotionally available didn't make me think less of them. If anything, it made me feel like they were even more too good for me. I didn't like too much of the brash energy b/c it made it harder for me to take up space.

Not an IEI, just my perspective as an IxFx.

[Xaiviay]

@Viktor thanks so much for your feedback! It's good to hear an Exxp type's perspective on this, and know that it's not only we introverts who sometimes feel a little intimidated by our duals

And your last post made me think - What ages were the IEIs you were talking about (that lost interest in you once you opened up emotionally)?

That's something that I might have done as a teenager when I was more unhealthy and anxious. But not anymore, now I feel even more drawn in by a guy who opens up his heart to me. I don't know why it sometimes turned me off when I was younger, maybe I just already felt too vulnerable and insecure, and dealing with any more emotional softness on top of that just made me uncomfortable D:

But at any rate, I'd think you should be able to be your whole self, eventually (including emotional vulnerabilities) with your dual - it doesn't seem healthy or fulfilling otherwise. I'm not IEI, but my heart softens when Fi-PoLR types seek help with their Fi and Fe from me - I feel like it's a privilege when a normally closed-off logical sort of person decides to trust me with their feelings. IEIs have demonstrative Fi too, so it seems like they should feel similarly.

If any IEIs would like to confirm/contradict this, go right ahead~

[waddup]

SEI back peddling classics.

[Xaiviay]

I think you shouldn't get feely with them until you've won them over, and even then you gotta be careful, because I do think they need us to be a hero, which is fine by me because I prefer not to get feely in the first place. Them believing in me actually makes me feel more powerful, so it's almost better if I just keep being amazing and they can reinforce the belief, idk.

@Viktor Ohhh that's interesting, it would have really bothered me if my partner wanted me to be more stoic, or if my partner never ended up feeling like he could open up to me about his feelings 100%. But if you're happy with keeping up the hero character and holding back your feelings, then more power to you. It seems like you and these IEI girls you mentioned compliment each other.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I think that, if we stopped acting important and started being more sincere and friendly, you wouldn't be interested in us.

In my view, it's incredibly attractive when a person is more sincere and friendly AND self-important arrogant bad-assy at the same time. They don't have to be fighting with each other. SEEs are our semi-duals for that reason, right? Kindness is not weakness, but being mentally insecure about it (like some ILEs I know, sorry ILEs) would be off-putting. I am drawn to those that can be compassionate and fight-y at the same time.

Only wanting some evil narcissist dictator is a phase I think mainly teenager IEIs go through and we can grow out of it. True some never do. I know a few IEIs pushing 40 that haven't really grown out of the 16-year-old want a psychopath thing.

[JadeHorse]

IEE normalizing is the only type which makes sense for me at this point and im pretty ambiverted with ocd, maladaptive daydreaming (confused for ni base) and adhd .

If my subtype dual is SLI dominant, it might be the other way round. I used to think I was IEI but the descriptions felt wack "spending my days in the gardens of my imagination" was a result of extensive childhood trauma so for most of my life I probably acted like a pseudo depressed iei-smiley fe, most istps just thought I was a distant loser lol and my dual is probably slightly more extroverted and estp like.

Real Estps on the other hand seem obnoxious to me now, mutual respect and attraction on their part but then I end up disappointing them after the second or third contact.

I think it depends on subtype and how messed up you are a long the way.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes it’s all true. LSE and plenty of them passed me up mostly because I looked boring. I had a routine I did every day...get up go to work, read drink tea write on online forum and when I dated I usually didn’t have much to say. I looked boring. ESTj like fun women, outgoing, erudite. Well I know a lot you just have to ask me because I’m not an extrovert. I don’t offer up verbal information openly and readily and I didn’t engage in social drinking or other types of social meet ups and fun. I just took dancing classes. Anyway yes it took me a long long long long time to make any type of a noticeable entry. But, I made that entry to the right person and it worked liked God intended it to. The wait was worth it. My mil is a certified mbti practitioner, 30 years she assessed types. We have some great conversations she typed me too. What an awesome woman. Idk LSE are a strange bunch. They are so hung up on looks and sexual appeal. I am a conservative dressor. I like being covered up. One LSE who lives in the community kept coming up to me to ask his type. I kept telling him. He ended up with an IEE. Another LSE loved Asian women - Thai Asian to be more specific. Another LSE wanted an IV league graduate in the same par as himself. Another LSE wanted an IEI -got into a conflict relationship, so many got with SEE. Yes passed up or overlooked is the right way to say it. Overlooked. But that’s okay I’m very happily married to two LSE, not just one. Two for waiting twice as long for the right person.

[gone]

Damn

[roger557]

The premise in this thread is true. Often duals seem uninteresting/bland/lame/weird to each other at first glance, but when they start interacting and triggering the duality intertype, everything changes. Semi-duality or activity are much easier to start.

[Olimpia]

Semi-duality or activity are much easier to start.

In my experience, my extroverted Semi-Dual usually spots me first, and then he just goes for it. Haha. I don't have to do anything. I am not looking at him (or not even seeing him at all), not paying attention, and suddenly he is at my side and introduces himself and asks me several questions haha. Assuming my Semi-Dual is SEE, it could also be a matter of them being Se lead. It could be different if your Semi Dual is Ne lead, or even more so if they are an Introvert.

My Activity partner is introverted, and in those cases, there is usually more of an initial back and forth. I am assuming another guy I know is LSI-Se, and he did not approach directly, but started being more interested once I was being humorous and sending positive signals. With SEE, I don't have to do anything at all, I just have to exist and be close enough in their vicinity haha. With introverts, I usually have to be a bit more active.

What helps with Semi Dual (and Activity), is that they are easier to meet, because you don't have to go out of your way/comfort zone as much. The last time I got approached by an SEE, I had to go out of my comfort zone a bit, I went to a fairly big social event (big for my usual standards haha, in the past I would not have gone). But it was manageable. Similarly with the LSI-Se, but there I went to something that's more technical, also a bit out of my comfort zone (to which I prob wouldn't have gone in the past either). Whenever I don't go out of my comfort zone, I mostly meet IxFx types and some INTx or LSI-Ti, with the occasional ENFx or ENTj.

[roger557]

In my experience, my extroverted Semi-Dual usually spots me first, and then he just goes for it. Haha. I don't have to do anything. I am not looking at him (or not even seeing him at all), not paying attention, and suddenly he is at my side and introduces himself and asks me several questions haha. Assuming my Semi-Dual is SEE, it could also be a matter of them being Se lead. It could be different if your Semi Dual is Ne lead, or even more so if they are an Introvert.

My Activity partner is introverted, and in those cases, there is usually more of an initial back and forth. I am assuming another guy I know is LSI-Se, and he did not approach directly, but started being more interested once I was being humorous and sending positive signals. With SEE, I don't have to do anything at all, I just have to exist and be close enough in their vicinity haha. With introverts, I usually have to be a bit more active.

What helps with Semi Dual (and Activity), is that they are easier to meet, because you don't have to go out of your way/comfort zone as much. The last time I got approached by an SEE, I had to go out of my comfort zone a bit, I went to a fairly big social event (big for my usual standards haha, in the past I would not have gone). But it was manageable. Similarly with the LSI-Se, but there I went to something that's more technical, also a bit out of my comfort zone (to which I prob wouldn't have gone in the past either). Whenever I don't go out of my comfort zone, I mostly meet IxFx types and some INTx or LSI-Ti, with the occasional ENFx or ENTj.

Okay, that's good. But how do you feel about ILE's?

[The Reality Denialist]

Okay, that's good. But how do you feel about ILE's?

Be aware that her parents have breed super hyper mutant crazy ILE by feeding him calculus books (they just dissolved those into liquid phase) instead of giving plain breast milk.

[Olimpia]

Okay, that's good. But how do you feel about ILE's?

Some things they talk about can be fairly interesting, but I'd never seriously date one. That applies to all Ne/Si types for me. There's an IEE guy who kind of asked me out before, but I don't think it would work. Maybe if we didn't share mutual friends I'd go on a date with him just-because (he's interesting/attractive enough hah), but it's just too awkward and too much pressure. Going on a date with opposite Quadra seems useless to me overall. ILE... I've never personally met one that I found attractive, afaik. But I also rarely meet any. I almost never meet ExTp.

[roger557]

Some things they talk about can be fairly interesting, but I'd never seriously date one.
That applies to all Ne/Si types for me.

There are ILE's that are more Se-ish... look at Christian Bale..

[Olimpia]

Guys who I type as ILE... Seth Green, Neil degrasse Tyson (Ne sub), VSauce (Ti sub), WheezyWaiter (Ne sub), Linus Sebastian (Ti sub)

I'm fine with those guys, and i found Seth Green oddly attractive haha, but I cannot see myself being with ILE.