ILIs/INTps and being ambitious

[FarDraft]

Deleted

[ashlesha]

Can you say more about what your ambition actually entails in terms of what you do on a daily/weekly basis?

I don't think that would help me answer your question because i'm not good at these questions lol but i'm curious and I think it would provide clarity to anybody else interested in answering.

[FDG]

ILIs can be as ambitious as any other type. They´ll just go at it in their usual lazy way, wearing pijamas at home while calling potential business partners, or wearing old worn clothes with holes during some sports competition. (of course SEEs or ESIs can help with the presentation)
The person I know who´s like this is also a ILI-Te. He´s different from me because he cares less about image in a way, he´s kind of nicer with people but has some big social faux pas that he completely does not understand.

[Adam Strange]

just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!

Damn, maybe I should try going back to some of the places I visited when I was in my twenties. I didn't know about Socionics then. I just liked being around naked women. Still do, to tell the truth, although I've changed my venues.

As for making friends, there was one girl at one club who wanted my opinion on her clothes, told me her car is paid for, she makes great money and she's a great cook. I was just there for the entertainment, but your point about making friends is well taken. She def believed in regular exercise.

[Sol]

They prefer intelligent work with good money. This may motivate some of them for good career.
It's mostly about men.

[vesstheastralsilky]

just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!

Gamma SFs & sex?

I'd more expect to find them on luxury liners, haute shopping for favorite brands and exploring luxury car dealerships - Se values material status much more than sensation-seeking sensuality which is Si. Some ESIs with demonstrative Si can be a fake tease in this regard - the closest you might get are the ones who get fake boob jobs and plastic surgery wear tons of makeup when in the mood yet mostly keep to themselves after their rare Se quickie. These types with creative Se - LSI and ESI - make any rare extenuating sex for more than 15 minutes seem like an ordeal. Not that I would know (ahem cough*cough). You're far more likely to find SEEs and ESIs waitressing than making a lifestyle at strip clubs.

[Adam Strange]

Gamma SFs & sex?

I'd more expect to find them on luxury liners, haute shopping for favorite brands and exploring luxury car dealerships - Se values material status much more than sensation-seeking sensuality which is Si. Some ESIs with demonstrative Si can be a fake tease in this regard - the closest you might get are the ones who get fake boob jobs and plastic surgery wear tons of makeup when in the mood yet mostly keep to themselves after their rare Se quickie. These types with creative Se - LSI and ESI - make any rare extenuating sex for more than 15 minutes seem like an ordeal. Not that I would know (ahem cough*cough). You're far more likely to find SEEs and ESIs waitressing than making a lifestyle at strip clubs.

Re: Bolded part. The duration of sex with the LSI's I've dated has centered around one hour. It has been as short as two minutes (mostly to show affection) or as long as four hours, but I'd say the average is around one hour. And they didn't seem to view it as an ordeal. Quite the contrary, they were better at and more eager for extended sex than I was.

[vesstheastralsilky]

Re: Bolded part. The duration of sex with the LSI's I've dated has centered around one hour. It has been as short as two minutes (mostly to show affection) or as long as four hours, but I'd say the average is around one hour. And they didn't seem to view it as an ordeal. Quite the contrary, they were better at and more eager for extended sex than I was.

My exfiance was LSI, had another 5 year relationship with an ESI and a fling with another LSI. Sex was rare and not priority for any of them and this was back when I was in shape and was young and attractive. Such wasted years. I should've known my type and exited sooner. So much wasted.

[End]

just head to a strip club and you'll be surrounded by them :-) great opportunity to make some new friends!

Hahaha! Now that just caused me to remember that one and only time I went into one. I have to say, the strippers took what seemed to me both unusual interest and pleasure in my company (I made them all smile somehow and it felt good when they did). I didn't drop too much money I think, but it was enough to cause me to not wanna do it again any time soon. Still, I didn't know about this stuff at the time. If females are in any way more likely to become strippers than an male wandering into their lair would draw them to himself quite effectively I would imagine.

Damn did they get close to getting me to give in now that I remember. Damn near thought that one extra sexy dark skinned girl was a legit succubus in my alcohol tinged mind... Only paranoia and faith kept me from following her into that room I was sure would have ended in us doing things that violate my religion's stance on that sort of thing. Married couples only on that score...

[The Reality Denialist]

It makes me wonder what kind of dynamic monster duo they become when they get dualized.

Just basing this how my SEE-N sister respects external integrity of the world aka Ne. Although I think that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Just like the main character in the Daria does.

I suspect some kind of environment where they can push through obstacles makes their dualization optimal.

[Skepsis]

It makes me wonder what kind of dynamic monster duo they become when they get dualized.

Just basing this how my SEE-N sister respects external integrity of the world aka Ne. Although I think that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Just like the main character in the Daria does.

I suspect some kind of environment where they can push through obstacles makes their dualization optimal.

It is interesting you mention that ILI would supply the needed Ne. Personally, I find myself doing that when needed, as well as supplying ideas and random humor, but it is very limited in scope and duration. It can be exhausting and even annoying. Mostly, I think I use it to show that I have the ability like others because a lack of it demonstrates close mindedness, imo. It is like I've been pushed to demonstrate. People often mistaken any certitude on a topic as a lack of open mindedness, when I have already thought about it and decided other ideas or points of view are very likely to be incorrect because they are flawed. I think it difficult for Ne types to dismiss various points of view that they find as equally possible, thereby, making them skeptical of people who are confident that their worldview is correct.

The difference in approach is apparent, even though the end goal is the same, for ILE and ILI. Both want to know what is "really real", except the ILE is more willing to explore various possibilities to narrow everything down to one objective reality. ILI wants to know objective reality as well, but is just much less motivated to explore when it comes to figuring it out. ILIs want the shortest possible route to the answer and will avoid anything that intuitively seems like a dead end. ILE explores many more paths, ILI very few.

ILIs are not lazy or unambitious, but they may be perceived that way when misunderstood.

[Skepsis]

I do want to add that ILI and LII are basically the same when it comes to Ne, with the exception is that LII are more literal and rigid about things what I find to be a hard to describe manner. The focus on logical correctness at all times seems pointless, as you have to have some idea to be supported by logic. It is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People who constantly point out logical inconsistency and errors are just annoying. They can't just let it go. Grammar and logic nazis. They make me have to focus more in these areas...the bastards.

[FarDraft]

I do want to add that ILI and LII are basically the same when it comes to Ne, with the exception is that LII are more literal and rigid about things what I find to be a hard to describe manner. The focus on logical correctness at all times seems pointless, as you have to have some idea to be supported by logic. It is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People who constantly point out logical inconsistency and errors are just annoying. They can't just let it go. Grammar and logic nazis. They make me have to focus more in these areas...the bastards.

Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.

[Skepsis]

Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.

I'm a typology heretic. I don't buy into rigid functional use. I look at the dominant function as being representative of a person's overall tendencies. The Ti of LIIs make them more rigid, even if they still prefer intuition. They are a dominant judging type. Their intuition isn't on all the time like their Ti, which isn't that much different that ILI using Ne when they find use for it. LIIs also use Ni occasionally, making the types very similar. Instead of looking at TiNe and NiTe, look at INTj vs INTp (judging vs perceiving INTs) and the type of person the theoretical functions are suppose to describe. The cognitive functions are themselves merely decriptions, not causes.

[myresearch]

I'm a typology heretic. I don't buy into rigid functional use. I look at the dominant function as being representative of a person's overall tendencies. The Ti of LIIs make them more rigid, even if they still prefer intuition. They are a dominant judging type. Their intuition isn't on all the time like their Ti, which isn't that much different that ILI using Ne when they find use for it. LIIs also use Ni occasionally, making the types very similar. Instead of looking at TiNe and NiTe, look at INTj vs INTp (judging vs perceiving INTs) and the type of person the theoretical functions are suppose to describe. The cognitive functions are themselves merely decriptions, not causes.

I don't care about grammar mistakes or any mistakes that has insignificant importance. I don't point out other people's logical inconsistency all the time, I also think that is annoying. Ti base is more about building logically consistent model for yourself or analyzing things in order to understand, rather than focusing or criticizing other people's logic. ILI is called the critic and LII is called the analyst for a reason, that's why I am surprised by your post.

Perceiving does not directly correlate with openness, if that was the case, then all irrationals would be more open than all rationals, do you think that is the case? if so, could you explain it further, if not, then we have to look at the information elements, in order to choose a singular route, one has to ignore other routes, so that person has to be close to considering other routes.

[Skepsis]

I don't care about grammar mistakes or any mistakes that has insignificant importance. I don't point out other people's logical inconsistency all the time, I also think that is annoying. Ti base is more about building logically consistent model for yourself or analyzing things in order to understand, rather than focusing or criticizing other people's logic. ILI is called the critic and LII is called the analyst for a reason, that's why I am surprised by your post.

Perceiving does not directly correlate with openness, if that was the case, then all irrationals would be more open than all rationals, do you think that is the case? if so, could you explain it further, if not, then we have to look at the information elements, in order to choose a singular route, one has to ignore other routes, so a person have to be close to considering other routes.

Openness to Experience strongly correlates with MBTI Intuition. It makes sense that intuitive dominants would be the most open, which are your perceivers. It is more complicated than this because Openness to experience isn't just about being open to the arts and ideas.

I don't think of cognitive functions the same way. They are more descriptive than prescriptive. Someone is Ni because they are INxp. Perceiving types should be more easy going and less reactive. Ijs are reactive types and less open. INxjs are more open than ISxjs.

The archetypes are a bit mixed. For example, ILI has been called anything from the critic to artist to scientist to mystic.Furthermore, one can be critical of ideas that seem flawed and yet still polite and open to experience. It just means the person may be low on Agreeability, an independent dimension.

[vesstheastralsilky]

Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.

& @Nebula

The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.

[FarDraft]

& @Nebula

The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.

Honestly, in my experience, the true grammar/logic nazis tend to be ENTp's since ILI or LII are too focused on their internal world to care about minor deficiencies in what other people say. I've heard that an ILE's Te manifests in "showing off", if you will. Think Sheldon Cooper. ISTjs are also often like this - Nazi-like, that is. Perhaps it's a causal-deterministic thing? That doesn't seem like a bad hypothesis, actually.

That being said, NiTe being really technical and pedantic does make sense, given that Ni can be detail-oriented and Te cares about competence. People have observed and often commented on my technical nature in the past, especially when it came to Taekwondo. However, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to NiTe. Ti caring about the logical correctness of things would be a perfectly valid perpetrator of Nazi-like behaviour. But it's more likely that Ti users refrain from speaking so as to maintain social harmony. Similar to the different between INTJs and INTPs in MBTI. INTJs are more outspoken, whereas INTPs are less so.

[Skepsis]

Honestly, in my experience, the true grammar/logic nazis tend to be ENTp's since ILI or LII are too focused on their internal world to care about minor deficiencies in what other people say. I've heard that an ILE's Te manifests in "showing off", if you will. Think Sheldon Cooper. ISTjs are also often like this. Perhaps it's a causal-deterministic thing? That doesn't seem like a bad hypothesis, actually.

That being said, NiTe being really technical and pedantic does make sense, given that Ni can be detail-oriented and Te cares about competence. People have observed and often commented on my technical nature in the past, especially when it came to Taekwondo. However, I don't think it's mutually exclusive to NiTe. Ti caring about the logical correctness of things would be a perfectly valid perpetrator of Nazi-like behaviour. But it's more likely that Ti users refrain from speaking so as to maintain social harmony. Similar to the different between INTJs and INTPs in MBTI. INTJs are more outspoken, whereas INTPs are less so.

I agree that the Ni concept would theoretically make someone less inclined to be vocal in such a way as to obtain the title grammar nazis. I think even The Critic is a bit much. I could see artist, scientist, mystic, skeptic, etc, but Critic is not quite right. It makes very little sense. Ni dominants are communicatively distant. Maybe the ones that are more extroverted and less agreeable would? I'm not sure. Their melancholic nature is more of a self imposed standard as opposed to a standard to impose onto others. I would think ExTj would be most inclined.

I'm very tech savy and science oriented. I am very stubborn with what i know and I know it well, but I'm not imposing or intimidating with it. It is just too much effort to put into such things. Of course, there are contradictions in socionics theory, so I can see where it is confusing for everyone. I do think that ILI(INTp) is more similar to INTP in MBTI just based on the descriptions and temperament. LII is more similar to INTJ. It is the difference between Ips and Ijs. Forget the functional stack, just look at overall picture. ILIs are also light researchers, hardly the type that would make a great critic. You have to have people that aren't as lazy as ILI in acquiring knowledge to make at least a good critic.

I know this is the reverse of what people are used to with the theory, but I think it makes more sense.

[FarDraft]

& @Nebula

The Nazism you describe is Ni Te not LII.

This is why true ILls are often happy as auditors, accountants, CFOs, computer programmers, general paper pushers and legal document scrutinizers, professionally. It goes beyond just spelling words correctly and the like.

ILIs are likely to inadvertently ignore or yield Ne to others, such as new goals or questions of conceptual image or beliefs. Ne is their so-called Ignoring 7th function.

I should also say that I would probably never take a career as an accountant, paper-pusher, or anything of that sort. It's just too boring. I'm detail-oriented but doing something that precise on a regular basis wouldn't satisfy my creative desires. A programmer, on the other hand, combines the detail-orientation and efficiency with creative problem solving and pattern recognition. Things I enjoy. I assume most Ni bases, and intuitive types in general, would agree.

However, the point you bring up is interesting. I've always considered the high level description of the ILI to be a mix of each IxTx type in MBTI; however, I haven't seen someone so explicitly state that an ILI would take jobs that are more commonly associated with sensing types in MBTI. It's something I've always expected but never confirmed.

[vesstheastralsilky]

I should also say that I would probably never take a career as an accountant, paper-pusher, or anything of that sort. It's just too boring. I'm detail-oriented but doing something that precise on a regular basis wouldn't satisfy my creative desires. A programmer, on the other hand, combines the detail-orientation and efficiency with creative problem solving and pattern recognition. Things I enjoy. I assume most Ni bases, and intuitive types in general, would agree.

Creative? Nahhh you sound Alpha to me. I hope you haven't been relying on Gulenko data to define your type.

[Skepsis]

Wouldn't LIIs be more open to using Ne though since it's in their ego block? Sure, they may be grammar or logic nazis, but with valued Ne and alpha values, the childish Ne archetype should be present.

Not necessarily. The Creative function isn't always "on", like the dominant function. Compare extroverted intuition as a creative function vs ignoring; not that different really.


Ne in different functional positions: (different ways to say the same thing?)

" as a creative (2nd) function (LII and EII)

The individual likes to apply his insight to specific situations, relating them to the bigger picture. He also enjoys discussing idealized circumstances or what could be rather than what is. Consequently, he usually has high standards, even unreasonably so, for those around him.
He does not pursue ideas or new opportunities merely for their own sake, but for their application to specific questions and issues that he feels are important."

The last sentence is like Ne ignoring


" as an ignoring (7th) function (IEI and ILI)

The individual understands "external" connections made between different areas of knowledge and experience, but prefers to focus instead on "hidden" connections that have a special significance and help understand the mysterious, hidden nature of things. He is able to readily grasp the intrinsic potential of a given thing or situation, but prefers to restrict indulging such assessments in the face of understanding the latent processes underpinning said things."

Both LII and ILI will use Ne if it is of importance and of value to them. Either way, both of their use of Ne is "restrictive" when compared to Ne dominants.

*substitute "hidden" connections with

Wikisocion Composites:

"2. Extraverted Intuition

The LII often applies in an academic field such as mathematics, one which allows for abstract speculation to be realized in concrete conclusions. The LII does not much care for implementation or hands-on work, requiring some degree of independence from material demands in order to develop his own ideas. If the LII feels made to do a task he perceives as boring, he will try to find an original way to do it, if simply for the sake of developing an interesting idea. The LII can think on his feet, and is able to consider multiple viewpoints, although if he feels that he has fully analyzed an idea in the past, he may dismiss it out of hand with .
The LII is always in tune with the "big picture", looking at things from the most general perspective possible. Given this frame of reference, he sees many ways ordinary life could be changed to meet his vision of how things should be. Thus the LII is often seen by other more practically-minded types as naively idealistic.
The LII does not come up with ideas simply for their own sake, but tries to relate everything back to "the main point". He quickly becomes impatient or disinterested with discussion that is simply meant to generate ideas, instead of realizing them"

hmmmmm.....again, creative has overlap with ignoring(bolded)


"7. Extraverted Intuition

Although ILIs may have the ability to brainstorm and develop lots of new and unconventional ideas, they prefer not to do so while interacting with others. ILIs often believe that a well-developed understanding of a situation is of greater importance than an understanding of several potential outcomes. To an ILI, it would be a silly and pointless exercise to simply list an infinite number of possible outcomes without assessing their relevance or the likelihood of their realization.* In contrast to leading types, ILIs are likely to be relatively immotile in the ideas that they consider. Whereas leading types may jump from idea to idea in succession, ILIs are likely to focus closely on a more limited batch of mental themes. ILIs are also often critical of new ideas which do not correspond to their overall understanding of a subject.*
ILIs may be more apt to take a more practical approach to evaluating the outside world. They seek to expand upon aspects of their own internal realities, e.g. thinking of possible characteristics or plots for inner mental universes. Additionally, they prefer to use their imagination to solve real-world issues, like those regarding economics, politics, or the development of modern society.
ILIs often have difficulty adapting themselves to new intellectual interests. They would rather limit the amount of new information that they have to learn. Consequently, they may be prone to recycling interests until the same interests become a drudgery, even so much that intellectual progress becomes stunted."

*This really isn't all that different than LII. These descriptions are to contrast LII and ILI with Ne dominants. The difference in emphasis though is to direct these types into different quadras, because that is the objective of socionics.

[Alomoes]

What ambition?

[Skepsis]

Deleted

[End]

The "ambition" of an ILI? Oh, I can tell ya what it is. You are the martyr nobody knows of. You are the shadow nobody remembers, just another ignorant fool...

Yet, in that one act (metaphorically speaking) that none comprehend the enormity of, you reshaped reality itself. You unmade a dark destiny and forced it to become a luminous one because you had to. The cost was your existence perhaps, but that's a bargain all things considered and you took that deal gladly .

[Skepsis]

I went to a juice bar, full nudity, when I was about 19. I was tagging along with people I barely knew at the time. They were very extroverted types. That was some time ago. It was an interesting experience and an overall wild night. I almost ended up in jail just for being with these guys. I do remember one girl. She wore leather and chains. She seems to like me a little bit. When she liked someone, she would roll up your money and put it in your mouth and then take it out with her mouth. Her lips touched mine, which they're not supposed to do. I remember her touch as being very light and tender.

There were definitely some loner types in the crowd. They were older men and I remember thinking that I was not going to be one of them. I still haven't been back to a strip club. So far, so good.