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Last edited by FarDraft; 12-15-2018 at 11:43 PM.
I know a guy whom I type as LIE-1Ni, and he is a fairly good leader/director, not that ambitious, tall, thin, shaves his head, very frequently asks other people to help him with doing mundane tasks (low Se), doesn’t tell people what to do directly but will ask for their help when he wants to start a project, doesn’t seem to seek power over people, likes to work with an LSE, let’s his wife rule his life, is good with writing reports and talking with vendors.
He is much less assertive than I am, and keeps everything on an impersonal level.
I think that in many ways, he is better suited to running an established company than I am, although he almost certainly could not start a company.
He is more cerebral than I am and less able to rally the troops or inspire people to either follow him or give him work.
He has the sexually non-PC LIE sense of humor.
Basically, a very nice, competent guy.
"I was ready to play. I was excited to play. Once the game started, it became the norm. It became reading defensive situations. You know, positioning of my teammates. Just overall strategy and tactics. And it felt good to get back to that."
I'm just illustrating what an LIE Ni subtype looks like. Just LIE with an emphasis on the creative function.
I wouldn't say they come across as an ILI because LIE and ILI have different creative functions. The way Ni surfaces in LIE vs ILI is different, regardless of subtype.
Sure, they have similarities, belonging to the same quadra, and both being NTs, but they shouldn't be conflated.
Creative function:
This function describes the primary mode of application of the base function. If the base function forms the core of the individual's personal quests and interests ("What's in it for me?", "What do I want to be?"), the creative function describes his main instrument for interacting with the rest of society ("How do I make contact with other people?"). For extroverts this means creating a context for people to interact within, and for introverts — creating a product worthy of being included in interaction.People use their creative function less than their base function and attach less personal significance to it, although due to the nature of blocked functions it is usually used in tandem with the base function. In their value system, their creative function activities seem less personally significant than their base function activities. When other people try to make this function the main criterion for everything, light irritation can arise, and the person may try to "correct" the other person's emphasis by presenting a perspective from his base function and suggesting that this is more important. Also, when other people express problems having to do with this information aspect, the person quickly takes interest and tries to present solutions — but always through his own base function. For instance, an SEE will try to help other people solve their Fi related problems (relationships and understanding between people) through a Se perspective (making sure you know what you want and are trying to achieve it; understanding the territorial aspect of interaction; recognizing the obvious "dumb things" that people are doing that are ruining the relationship). When people get to use their creative function to help others' problems, they feel needed and fulfilled and begin to live more fully. Likewise, criticism in this area is more sensitive and unpleasant than in the base function.Use of the creative function — while frequent and effortless — seems to turn on and off. One moment the person may seem highly interested in this aspect, and the next — totally indifferent. This may jar people for whom this aspect of reality is of more supreme importance and who expect more consistent attention and effort in this area. A good example of this is one's interaction with their mirror partner; each person's leading function is subject to the other's creativity function, so even though both partners do share similar worldviews, they are apt to 'correct' or add on to the other's rigid and finalized points.
According to model A, a connection between ILI and LIE is that they both have Ni in their ego block. Therefore, they have high proficiency with Ni, Ni is one of their most conscious functions, and they value Ni. Compared to the other types, a base Ni individual and a strong creative Ni have an exceptionally high preference for Ni. Nevertheless, the LIE is still an extravert who leads with Te and an ILI is still an introvert who leads with Ni. So, as far as subtypes are concerned, we're looking at a spectrum of preference; LIE Ni employs Ni more than the default profile and ILI Te employs Te more than the default profile.
That's not conclusive evidence for you being LIE; all gammas value Se and what they want plays a significant role in how they develop their vision (Ni) of how to get it.
Meged and Ovcharov have postulated that subtype preference for the creative function increases strength of the 3rd and 5th functions. Emphasizing The first function strengthens the 4th and 6th.
I think there is something to this idea.
So, LIE-Ni has more developped Fe and Fi and seems closer to a beta NF, whereas ILI-Te has better develloped Si and Se and thus seems closer to delta ST.
Last edited by Ave; 10-10-2018 at 12:32 PM.
Ah I'm pretty sure this is the football fan from another thread looking forward to talking to you soon
I agree E initiates contact with people but not the loud part really, I think any type is capable of that more than the other
I consider myself a really loud(scenario by scenario basis mostly) person
Yea
I think Hugh Grant and James Woods
Hi. How are you doing? I really appear as an ESTp, which is meh. I test as an INFp, which is wrong for too many reasons. I also test as INTp more often than not, and even INTj a few times. So, I tend to be more or less alone in my head, actually generating other entities and such to practice conversation with. It's fair, as I am a very musical and hearing based individual, so I can imitate people's tone of voice in my head. I don't prefer this, but often the ideal is better than the real thing.
I am that guy who picks a random table, sits with people, watches them, talks very sparingly, leaves, and then assigns myself to that table. This is irrespective of whether I enjoy it or not, and is often incredibly awkward. It is also very irrational.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
Hello, I am apparently a Lie-Ni. I have to say I don't know so much about socionics nor MBTI, but out of all the times I have taken the socionics test, vast majority of my results have fallen into the Lie-0 to Lie-2Ni spectrum. In fact I was introduced to socionics by some people who initially suggested that I might be an ENTJ with a well developed Ni (with my MBTI results being almost evenly split between INTJ and ENTJ with INTJ coming up slightly more often). Socionics however has been consistent, to the point where I even tried to be more flexible with questions prioritizing those that favored answers like societal needs over productivity and being a humanitarian over improving own position and it would still give me Lie, my enneagram seems to be 8w7 which is also seems to be common to ENTJs.
I don't really know what you would like to know, but I definitely see some general difference between the perceived stereotype those found in ENTJs and me. There is a comprised reading list for several MBTI types online, and the list that is prescribed to INTJ appeals far more to me for example. There are a lot of common themes to me that are common to ENTJs, even as a child I always took charge, never liked being told what to do and was always very competitive. I liked playing with toy soldiers, was naturally attracted to chess and captained projects and sports teams. At the same time I was always fascinated with space, theoretical and abstract concepts. ENTJs are known to be out of touch with their feelings sometimes, and in parts this is very true and in part it is not with me. I know I can be very blunt, and rude especially those that cross me but at the same time I always went out of my way even as a child ti give away my lunch money to the homeless or to feed stray cats and dogs. I was also very good at acting and speeches, I would always be the lead in all school plays.
I don't really know what much else to tell you. There is already a description about Lie-Ni and Lie-Te on the sociotype website, but that would be me just regurgitating some material and not really me giving you answer from my perspective. So if there are some specific things you still want to know, ask away and I'll see what I can come up with if I don'tr forget about this thread.
As a celebrity: Elon Musk, works 120 hours and has much passion and vision. He shares the passion with the EIE-Ni, who has the most comparable Ni
One male friend of mine started a company also works 120 hours, and talks 120 words a minute. makes lot of money, but is very greedy. I'm not sure if they share that much with ILI, since the temperament is so different. But same quadra so, get along great. He's Sx/So.
One female friend I knew, talked like 2 hours on the phone and the phone automatically disconnects after two hours lol. Pretty dominant and agressive. Attack before they attack you. Though maybe due to Sx/So.
Just some random thoughts.
I have a class mate that I type as an ENTj-Ni. He is an international student from India studying graphic design.
Supposedly, I am an ENTj-Te 8w9. The superficial differences between us:
ENTj-Ni
-Much more social and friendly
-More erratic energy
-More humorous
-Less judgmental
ENTj-Te
-More concern regarding efficiency and productivity
-More aware of power dynamics
-More assertive
-More judgmental
LIE-Ni tends to be less confident in being LIE while LIE-Te tends to be overconfident whereas not being either indicates ideally-balanced; and similar is true for all types. Behavioural differences within a type can be solely linked to perceptions of one's potential for success and is something that can vary over one's lifetime. In a sense, sub-type is an illusion, which is why trying to determine it can sometimes be like trying to pee cleanly through a rolling doughnut......
a.k.a. I/O
Here are some very general differences.
Te subtype has one or several of those traits:
Stereotypically extroverted; more impulsive; more invested in science and/or technical (e.g engineering) subjects; more into sports.
Ni subtype has one or several of those traits:
”Ambiverted” (can be mistaken for an introvert); more focused on societal issues and the welfare of society; more interested in psychology and spirituality.
An Entrepreneur who falls into both categories more or less is mostly likely the No subtype kind.
– from my blog post
It depends if you mean Harmonizing subtype (Ni subtype), or Creative subtype (emphasized Creative function - Ni in LIE).
So Harmonizing LIE is imo Elon Musk.
Creative LIE is imo Quentin Tarantino.
So this is the DCNH perspective. I dont like the 2 subtypes system because it seems like it often confuses functional emphasis with subtype function. But that's a different story.
Last edited by Tallmo; 01-21-2021 at 02:44 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
LIE Ni
Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert
Yeah, especially as Type 8.
Yep, See above.
Not ambitious? In my experience, Wrong. Never came across an un-ambitious LIE before. Not ruthless? Depends on how you define it, they can be "ruthless" in the sense they won't be afraid to "harm your feelings" if necessary.
They tend to be a mix of both, yes their Se HA is less strong, but they actually value Ni/Se more than LIE-Te for instance, so they will want to be active in some way, it will come in bursts. And they are still Te lead at the end of the day, so they will still be productive and "do" rather than just think, that is more of an INTx especially LII occupation.
"Love to shoot the shit" I guess yes? Depends on what you mean, I'd like more clarification ^^'
They can be aware of formalities and tend adhere to them in social situations, being Fe Role.
The LIE-Ni people I have known were often concerned with fashion (when SX first) but not necessarily too good at it. SX last LIE-Ni does care less, but they still don't want to look shabby.
Yeah it is not as bad, but it still takes a toll on them.
Good critique..................I can try to clarify my generalizations, which can scream clarity as they are generalizations.
Ambitious Ruthless? Don't want to be the boss and don't want to control others at all. Not a stand alone in the wilderness entrepenuer. The need to micro manage others is horrid to me. My job is essentially as a fixer, putting out the fires started by others, so I stay very active and have freedom and authority and am accountable to one person and essentially work for myself in a large organization. This is ideal for me, I am fixing problems and not people. May answer the thinker vs doer assertion.
Shoot the shit? Love to talk to everybody who I find interesting. Love to talk and talk. LIE Ni............very talkative.
Formalities? Don't show deference to authority, position, status or go out of my way to put others at ease. I'm not clingy, and I don't like clingers. I am interested in friendly relations and don't like tension. I liked
Fashion? Of course I meet the minimum of fashion standards, I am not a clothes horse is all........clean, presentable, clean shaven fresh haircut etc........just not interested in being Elton John. More interested in feeling comfortable than looking good.
Generalizations again, but these one way communications beg a clarification that rarely met.
Essentially not the stereotypical CEO savage.
*Technically. I don't know if yes or not. I haven't been screened in a method more than ad hoc Occam's Razor and the subtype test.
Yes. vvv
"Speak unfiltered
Not confrontational, but not afraid to shut people up
Not ambitious or ruthless
More of a thinker than a doer
Love to shoot the shit
Formality does not exist but wary of people who are too friendly
Fashion tends more towards utility than presentation
Being alone is not unbearable as an extrovert"
I also refuse to format my quotes correctly. It's not worth my time.
Although, there is a caveat, I do have ambition, but I rather consider them pointless projects.
Oh yeah, another thing, not afraid to try to shut people up. Whether it works or not? Unknown.
SHOOT. I'm not LIE. How do you strikethrough. Got it. Sorry, I test as ILI-Ni subtype. Although I *could* be LIE-Ni subtype, I really don't know, but I'm currently leaning on INTp/ILI-Ni subtype.
I misread LIE as ILI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
An optimist - does not get discouraged under any circumstances. Life upheavals and stressful events only toughen him and make more confident. He likes to laugh and entertain people. Enters contact with someone by involving him with a humorous remark. His humor is often sly and contain hints and double meanings. Easily enters into arguments and bets, especially if he is challenged. When arguing his points is often ironic, ridicules the views of his opponent. His irritability and hot temper may be unpleasant to others. However, he himself is not perceptive of this and believes that he is simply exchanging opinions.
http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=LIE_Profile_by_Gulenko
THIS. I can relate to this. Especially for an ENTJ enneagram 8, there you go.
Thank you.
Not this. I can see this is the part where 8w7 is different than 8w9.
8w7 is more in your face. I'm never blunt or rude, I graciously explain what could be wrong when you do this, but if you cross the line I just end you.
I'm actually confident in being an LIE. How can an LIE not have self confidence?
What I think is the way they act.
LIE-Te is in your face. The stereotype LIE.
LIE-Ni is more balanced.
This is why I said LIE-Ni is more balanced, because they develop more Fi and Fe (compared to LIE-Te).
That explains why I'm still ok befriend my conflictor lol.
And if we can say LIE-Te seems closer to LSE, then LIE-NI is comparable to EIE.
LIE-Ni can definitely be mistaken for an introvert (ILI) especially if they're Sp/Sx and 8w9.
But sometimes they look like an EIE, because they have good Se. (Hence the name look-a-like intertype in socionic)
Thank you. Ambitions and taking charge are what basically make us alive.
Less and over was with reference to the average LIEs, those who don't have a subtype. LIE-Ni subtypes spend twice the amount of time acquiring information than they would spend actually rationalizing it (50-50 is the ideal). Being 5% extra on the Ni side doesn't make one a subtype. Having a Ti-subtype like I have indicates a data-acquisition handicap.
I've met more than a few LIEs who lacked self-confidence with aspects of their lives (two drank themselves to death) so they're out there.
a.k.a I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 01-19-2021 at 11:08 AM.
I nearly drank myself to death. It wasn’t from lack of confidence, though. I was very self-confident. It was from hating parts of myself and being unable to act to change my external situation. Unfortunately, drinking just makes these things worse while reducing your ability to see this as it happens.
LIE’s do not love themselves. They are best off when they are able to use their abilities constructively and when they feel obligations to a team.
Without those things, the energy and drive gets turned inward, and that is very much not good.
No, sometimes you know that your chances of success are very slim, but if you project confidence, you can increase the chances of success. I don't think I ever do things just to make a point. I do them to get some result, and I always try to calculate the odds of success. If the odds are zero, or if the costs clearly outweigh any potential benefits, then I'll switch my efforts to something else. I'm not fundamentally trying to impress, I'm trying to do. Impressing someone is only in the service of getting something done.
Also, a lot of my confidence comes from being stupid about the odds against me. Like, "I can drink 24/7 and still hit home runs in my life." And I can be very confident that it will turn out fine. But, that's just stupid.
I would say that a LIE with a strong Ni subtype would have a better command over Fi than LIE-Tes do, they will seem more introverted than LIE-Tes, and their sensing functions will be weaker than a LIE-Te. They might confuse themselves for an introvert.
I know an LIE-Ni, and he does seem introverted. He doesn't push like I do, and he kind of hangs around an LSE guy like a puppy, saying "How can I be useful? What can I do? What do you think?"
Weirdly enough, he really wants kids and is married to a woman (not a dual. I think she's SLI, like my ex) who seems not to want any kids, and he's letting her make that decision. "Oh, well", he says. "If it happens, it happens."
In comparison, I married a woman who then told me that she didn't want kids. I told her that I did, and I was going to have them, and I hoped they'd be with her, but they didn't have to be.
I wanted three, she wanted none, and we compromised on one. I still feel stupid about that.
Quentin is not lie, afaict.
He's an extrovert. Beyond that.........I am not seeing LIE desires and foci when it comes to how he interacts, what he wants emotionally from an interlocuter, what pleases him about his work, what he focuses on, nor to what he draws your attention and HOW he draws it.
Gammas feel more reptillian, even the easy going, democratic, charismatic LIE, ime.
LIE will raise your spirits, make jokes, act gallant/attentive. It's difficult to imagine Tarantino offering to move something heavy for someone.
Maybe I just don't know him well enough, but I don't get it. I liked the acting by his Shoshana character, but the over all theses of his movies don't feel LIE to me.
Last edited by nanashi; 01-20-2021 at 12:43 AM.
I would think that Ni-subtypes would be the more image conscious but they all seem to be to an extent. Yes, I agree that LIEs tend to be very deliberate, and calculating of odds and effect. I realize that my experience is anecdotal; however, those that I've met (even those with obvious, overriding, personal problems) seem to want everyone to leave with the impression that they were a force to be reckoned with. I've witnessed several who deliberately went after (in a corporate sense) people who made them look bad; I was targeted by one because I refused a position he offered me and he may have made promises. Life for the LIEs, with whom I've had dealings, seems to revolve around total control of the overall program; maybe this changes with age. To an observer, the only admission to any lack of confidence was them not trying or steering clear and this could likely have been a result of them calculating the odds.
a.k.a. I/O
@Rebelondeck, I think you’re right about “total control of the whole program”, but not all the time. Only when we care about the program.
Most of the time, if the program is your program or is not interesting, LIE’s just don’t care about it at all. I mean, it’s your problem, you deal with it.
But if it’s my program, then I get to set the goals and the schedule and who does what.
I wasn’t always like this. When I started my beloved first company, I shared (gave away) control and just assumed that what I wanted was what everyone wanted and they’d all work and sacrifice as much as I would. I was pretty stupid. Eight years and about half a $M out of my after-tax income later and my partners had control of my company and didn’t share my vision and took it in the wrong direction and bankrupted it. The fallout from that cost me more thousands.
Most people are not going to share your vision and are not willing to sacrifice or sweat blood and work as hard as you are to make that vision a reality. Fine. They get paid for their services, they don’t get ownership. If they get paid to spend time working for me, they need to do what I need to have done. If they deviate, it should be in the direction of bringing more talent to the job, not less.
I’m not god. I don’t know how to do everything. I get around that by having a good sense of how good other people are at their jobs, and I like to work with very competent people. The more competent and experienced and social (in the sense of fitting into the team without needing a lot of attention or interventions), the better. I can’t stress this enough. They do the actual work, and great people are worth a lot. But they just don’t usually assume the obligations that you have to assume to keep the whole process going. That’s fine. Not everyone is so screwed up that they make their work their life.
Everybody wants to rule the world. Very few people are willing to work hard for it.
OK, now that my rant is over, let me say that from what I’ve observed, LIE-Te’s are better at starting a company from nothing, and LIE-Ni’s are better at running a business that already exists. You need tremendous drive to start a company, and you need very good people skills to run it. I’ve never seen anyone who has both.
Initially, the company grows by sheer force of will (and customers). Later, it grows by acquisitions. The two processes are very different and require very different skills and mind-sets.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-20-2021 at 01:40 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
@Adam Strange
Your theme song from your dual
Olimpia is a really good judge of types. Not immediately, but eventually, she seems to be able to piece together things that other people don't have the patience to discover. I trust that her typing of Tarantino as IEE-Ne is accurate.
He is random like an IEE but doesn't seem to have the evangelical streak that EIE's can have. His movies don't lead to lessons or global Ni insights, but rather are just one random thing after another, strung together to make a story. Kind of.
I feel unqualified to type him. I think you're correct on extrovert. But I feel hesitant to guess about him. He's just very unlike me in the microexpressions and such. And I can, usually, recognize a similar mind to my own in all the ENTjs. I don't sense it in him.
Have you ever seen him around LSI? The interactions there might be useful in typing him. Often erratic extroverts seem peaceful around their duals, etc.
I don't know him enough to type him. I just have "Other" as a response
This is a guy I know personally. I type him LIE harmonizing.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)