INXp, but not sure which

[Bertrand]

also engineering is a profession not a cognitive function

adam: out of hand rejects a bunch of possibilities. declares one to be true with the most made-up rationale i've ever seen. posts picture of self, says person reminds them of himself before he came alive. what the fuck. I hope she stays dead if this is the future. agree that you "use" Fe to try and ingratiate yourself though, which usually takes the form of making awkward compliments to anyone who will listen. adam wishes he could come across as an asshole. its more like hes creepy, but has no teeth so asshole would be more of a compliment than he deserves

[senki]

LIE's use Fe in self-defense against not being liked. We can turn it on to ingratiate ourselves into the good graces of a crowd, but after we see the initial signs that things are going well, we drop it and let our true nature come through (which, unfortunately, often makes us look like assholes).

I definitely do relate to this piece to some degree, though I need to say I don't have some kind of real antagonism toward the expression of it or people who use it, (though I can feel real irritation toward a person who is trying to make me act in accordance with certain social norm or mirror a certain kind of behavior). I rather view it as something I just don't understand the use for on a lot of levels, and as such, feel very awkward performing. I just want to jump ahead into the meat of it and talk to people for real since I don't really prize polite, formulaic communication, which is why I kind of don't enjoy meeting new people for the first time. It takes a lot of energy for me to make sense of how a new person feels towards me.

However, I am finding it hard to believe that I could be EJ temperament. A lot of my time is spent alone thinking about and refining my attitudes or understanding of things. I wouldn't describe myself as especially proactive, and even come off as rather avoidant. This is an actual criticism I've received multiple times. Once again, I think my perception of EJ is biased because I keep thinking of ESXj's that I know and how they act, and oh my god can they please calm the fuck down. . . It is possible that it's very different from how the temperament is expressed in intuitives, though.

I also to some degree don't understand how I would be 'becoming' myself (aren't I always myself?). I imagine having confidence issues is possible for all types, but wouldn't the source of one's confidence issues more likely come from the weaker functions, not from some hesitancy to use their strong functions? I guess if one has been in an environment in which the weak functions are valued and forced for a very long time and the strong discouraged, it seems plausible that the strong functions could be suppressed, but I would imagine one would find outlets. Also, I live in Germany, and really cannot imagine that anyone is trying to suppress Te and play up the Fe around here.

[Singu]

Don't bother with this place or Socionics, all you have gotten so far is just a bunch of conflicting and contradicting information. There's probably a reason for why. And you can't find any helpful insight into yourself that way.

[Hope]

I think it may be more useful for me to talk about the things I don't like, as I tend to have a stronger reaction to those things and feel more certainty in them.

In terms of things that I don't like in relationships, I would say communicating in a formulaic, prescribed, or linear way. An example I have of that is that I have a friend (who has somehow remained a friend, against all odds) who whenever she messages me or talks to me is like 'hey, how are you?' and then proceeds to ask what I would regard as extremely mundane questions, like, 'How is work going?' or 'What did you do this weekend?' as if we're having small talk at a water cooler at work or something---but we've known each other for almost a decade! When I ask her questions, she seems to answer in this very superficial manner that doesn't evidence any unique inner attitude or perception in regards to what she is talking about. She will talk a lot about series she's watching, or when her next grad school class is starting. . .I just find it entirely unstimulating and it takes a lot of energy to keep up communication with her. She also often nudges me to do yoga, which I regard as mildly irritating, especially because it's been like 5 years and you'd think by now she'd understand that I'm uninterested and it just isn't going to happen. She is definitely a well-meaning and kind person, though, much kinder than most, but I just can't keep interested. . .it's just baffling to me, because I get the sense she feels stimulated by the interaction.

For jobs, this has been a really difficult area in my life. I've ended up working in administrative and clerical positions, which I really believe is the worst thing I could possibly be doing. Reasons for that are, I really don't particularly enjoy answering to an authority figure when I lack respect for them. This lack of respect can be for all kinds of reasons...whether it be that I think they're just an asshole, or I think they're not intelligent and make stupid choices. In any case, I really loathe positions where I am asked not to think and just do as someone has ordered. I would not do well in the military.

Another problem professionally has been how I am socially. While a lot of colleagues seem to like me, it's more due to a certain naturalness, as I'm not particularly friendly in that formulaic, socially coded way as I described above. When it comes to service jobs like being a receptionist, I just feel bizarre. Like I don't know whether to smile at people when they walk in a room, or what. Often I just look up and say 'Hi' and go back to whatever it was I was doing or working on. Asking if they want coffee feels weird. Being super subordinate in that secretary stereotype way seems wholly unnatural to me. I don't even know how to *act* cordial it would appear. . .it just seems so strained. I also cannot STAND micromanagement. If someone gives me a task, I want to be granted the autonomy and the ability to focus to complete it. I don't want someone always over my shoulder nitpicking about nonsense and details that I would regard as extraneous and insignificant to completing the task or just painstakingly obvious. Because of my reaction to this kind of micromanagement, a recent boss (who was a dick, but also happened to be a very intelligent one) said to me, 'you really need to find a job where your work with other people is limited.' Welp. That about sums it up.

I think LIE works. I see that you seek for Fi more than Se in relations, like when you say that you dislike pre established social codes and weather talks, so, unvalued Fe. Your friend who does yoga sounds like alpha SF. So you feel like you can't have a connection.

You talk about being uncomfortable in subordinated positions, seems like Se HA. Plus, you say that you dislike serving coffee or being cordial and in assitant roles, which means no Si at all, no caregiving attitude, possibly Si PoLR.

ILI-Te could be, but you seem and sound more like LIE to me.

[niffer]

Don't bother with this place or Socionics, all you have gotten so far is just a bunch of conflicting and contradicting information. There's probably a reason for why. And you can't find any helpful insight into yourself that way.

Actually the most sane post in this thread. Only you can help yourself lol.

That’s it, let’s waste this poor girl’s life making her read dissonant textwalls. Just because we’re so sure of ourselves.

[senki]

Actually the most sane post in this thread. Only you can help yourself lol.

That’s it, let’s waste this poor girl’s life making her read dissonant textwalls. Just because we’re so sure of ourselves.

While I appreciate the sympathy, and it's true that the input is contradictory and thus somewhat confusing, I actually do not think only I can help myself here or that I have some special knowledge regarding my 'true self'. I think asking here (and asking other people in my daily life) will prove more informative, as I think the view from the outside is more valuable and less delusional than whatever I imagine myself to be. I don't really think people are anything else than what they appear to be to other people.

I also have gotten a few suggestions for types that I NEVER would have considered if I had not posted here, as well as a few methods and pieces of information that could help in determining type. So in short, thanks everyone for that.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think if you really suck here now details it would put you towards very low Si. ILI's are still quite capable of taking some care of that and they can be quite meticulous with details. Surely you are not EIE.

LIE makes sense.

[idontgiveaf]

ILI ftw Fe subtype

[niffer]

@senki what are your thoughts on your usage of Fi and Ti? I don’t think you mentioned those in your video.

[senki]

@senki what are your thoughts on your usage of Fi and Ti? I don’t think you mentioned those in your video.

I am finding from this entire discussion that my grasp of some of the functions is questionable (i.e. conflating things like disorganization and lower energy with Sensing vs. Intuition instead of temperament, and a few other dubious judgments, but I will try.

Fi seems a lot easier to talk about for me, because I would describe myself as 'preoccupied' with it and sometimes rather uncertain, especially romantically speaking. I can't tell you how many times I've freaked out from trying to analyze someone's behavior, or sometimes even assumed people were 'abandoning' me when they weren't at all. I really find it uncomfortable when the actions of someone I like or am dating don't point to an obvious positive regard of me. I certainly feel almost incapable of initiating any social or relational bonding (whether with friends or lovers). A good example would be basically NEVER initiating any kind of social outing with people I'm close to. It is very rare that I ask someone to hang out with me or spend time with me. I am also not very direct when expressing especially positive feelings toward someone, because it just feels fucking silly. My brothers will often end a conversation with me by saying 'I love you,' and not only does it feel awkward, it somewhat feels forced or not genuine to me...and I think that's the problem I have with it, not so much the fact that someone is telling me they love me. If someone tells me they love me and it feels like it's happening in a genuine, intensely emotional moment, then I can really appreciate that. That's why I'm not a huge fan of kissing people goodnight 'just because' or saying 'I love you' when I end a phone call with my boyfriend because that's 'just what you do.' Unless it's really being felt in that moment for some special reason, it feels otherwise ridiculous and also somewhat disingenuous.

Ti is much harder for me to describe in myself, because I think it seems like something really automatic that I don't even think about it happening. The only time I can really isolate it or observe it is when I am having arguments with people. I tend to hone in on inconsistencies and disparities in belief or thought, but really quite automatically without doing too much work. One example is, my neighbor started talking to me about transgender people the other day (why someone would bring that up as a conversation topic without any real lead-in is a discussion in and of itself, but anyway). . .He started telling me that being transgender is unnatural, and that it's a choice someone is making. First, I told him that I am pretty sure there's a body of research that largely suggests that the brains of transgender people appear different than those of cis people. He said there wasn't (which isn't true, but he wouldn't listen otherwise anyhow). I then asked what he thought of homosexuality--is that also unnatural, is that a choice? I was expecting him to say yes, because any other answer given his supposed belief system seemed unlikely. . .but to my amazement, he said that no, homosexuality isn't unnatural and that apparently, dudes liking dudes was A-ok by him, he had some gay friends. He couldn't quite explain to me why one deviation from the norm wasn't unnatural and the other one was, but I'd already pretty much decided he was a bit of an idiot at this point so I didn't see much a point in proceeding, because it was clear he'd never concede or learn anything.

Hope it helps.

[Adam Strange]

^ For what it's worth, this is a pretty accurate description of what I'm thinking or doing most of the time, but I just never, ever, talk about it. The only exception is that I can now say "I love you" to a SO or family member without freaking out or saying to myself, "I shouldn't have to say this. If they can't tell from my actions, then something is wrong". My ex-wife taught me to say "I love you" with some grace, though. I didn't learn it on my own.

This doesn't mean you couldn't be ILI. It just means that you and I have similar motivations and internal dialogs. And yeah, once I decide that a person is an idiot, I pretty much stop trying to casually engage with them unless there is a good reason to do so.

I have a lot of ILI friends, and to be honest, I think their internal dialogs are a bit different from what you just described. But I don't know for sure, of course.

*EDIT* Wait. I just thought of an ILI test. Ask your friends if they think you can be a real dick to a person on first meeting them. Most ILI's do this, whether it is some shit test for SEE's or just their Fe-PoLR, IDK, but they tend to do it. LIE's, on the other hand, tend to be charming upon first meeting someone.

Hey, after writing this, I went back and looked at the first few seconds of your video, which was your way of introducing yourself to the forum, and you seem way more charming than dickish.

[senki]

*EDIT* Wait. I just thought of an ILI test. Ask your friends if they think you can be a real dick to a person on first meeting them. Most ILI's do this, whether it is some shit test for SEE's or just their Fe-PoLR, IDK, but they tend to do it. LIE's, on the other hand, tend to be charming upon first meeting someone.

Hey, after writing this, I went back and looked at the first few seconds of your video, which was your way of introducing yourself to the forum, and you seem way more charming than dickish.

No, I am not an asshole when I first meet people. It's kind of vague what you mean by being an asshole, I guess? I'm certainly not effusive, and like, 'turning on the charm' as it were, and I always maintain a certain naturalness. . .maybe I will say something inappropriate/strange when I meet someone for the first time, as long as it's also in the company of friends, or will just be negative somehow. Oftentimes, this 'negative' quality comes out in a manner that I'm a bit irritated or frustrated--not to or about the person I'm talking to, but rather telling or story or talking about something that happened that I find ridiculous or stupid for whatever reason. I'll start cursing and just being generally acerbic, regardless of strangers and whoever is around. The right people usually find it amusing, though.

[Bertrand]

Adam lives in a world of stereotypes, the idea that ILIs are dicks on first impression and LIE is "charming" is dumb and something Ive seen him repeat before. any thinking type with a sufficiently developed persona will be able to socially interact quite well, and the elements of personality that make them who they are endear them to just as many people as it may alienate. turning on "charm" is its own form of annoying to just as many people, to boot. the thing with Fe, especially weak (role) Fe is by definition it is "more is more" which is precisely what reduces out a lot of flexibility and irritates people with its effusiveness. you could just as easily say LIEs are cunts and ILIs are charming for this reason and it would be just as (in)accurate

[senki]

any thinking type with a sufficiently developed persona will be able to socially interact quite well and the elements of personality that make them who they are endear them to just as many people as it alienates. turning on "charm" is its own form of annoying, to just as many people to boot

Yes, it seems also somewhat hard to believe that just after observing social interaction long enough that one wouldn't be able to adjust themselves a little bit as needed, even if uncomfortable. I don't want to keep bringing gender into it, but I do think it's especially true for women that we become very sensitive to what's expected of us in a social situation and act in kind, but I think most men pick up what's appropriate as well, even if we all think it's absolutely stupid and detestible.

Then again I will always remember an incident when my father, who I've always considered to be SLI, and I were at a restaurant and the waitress kept hovering and asking us questions throughout our meal. She finally came over and after inquiring for about the 5th time if we were enjoying everything, followed up with, 'Is there anything else I can do for you??' Of course my ever charming dad just said, 'yeah, you can do me a favor and buzz off' The right person may have found this funny. . .but yeah. . .no luck for him that day.

[Bertrand]

lol I waited tables for years and would have loved that if someone said that to me because its one less thing to worry about. I'd just give them a wide berth and clearly they're not afraid of just telling me if they need something and then I can attend to whoever else actually likes that kind of hovering. to me the most annoying patrons were the large packs of vapid women (or men) who could never make up their mind and always sent me on piecemeal non stop errands that ate up my time, then tipped like shit and thought because they were super "nice" about everything it meant I worked less or something, or that perhaps it should be sufficient having the privilege of serving them. although such things happen, sometimes people are legit funny and entertaining but its never the false sense of niceness, its when the patrons really converse with you and say interesting things, not empty pleasantries. also when they don't run you around for no reason. honestly people are dicks to waitstaff in a million different ways, the language doesn't even bother me, its more what they really require of you. the people who put a gloss on bad behavior and think that's whats important are the worst customers from my point of view, but other people get really pissed over "rudeness" which in my opinion is only superficial. I think this is a Te valuing thing

[senki]

sometimes people are legit funny and entertaining but its never the false sense of niceness, its when the patrons really converse with you and say interesting things, not empty pleasantries. . . . the people who put a gloss on bad behavior and think that's whats important are the worst customers from my point of view, but other people get really pissed over "rudeness" which in my opinion is only superficial. I think this is a Te valuing thing

Yeah and I guess that this is the whole point of this system in that the perspective you're coming from is the main determinant of whether or not a behavior is acceptable. I feel somewhat similarly to you, though I haven't waited tables.

Speaking of nonsense 'charm' though and how disgusting it really is: Some years ago I had a boyfriend who was meeting my brother and his girlfriend for the first time. We all go out to breakfast--have the whole shebang, coffee, breakfast with sides, bloody mary, etc., and when the bill comes, it's naturally quite expensive. Everyone reaches for their wallets to pay their share. But the boyfriend halts them, and says, 'No, no, please. . . I've got this.' My brother was pretty surprised and says, 'Really man? That's super nice of you, thanks. . .I really appreciate it.' Well, on the way home with my brother and his gf in the front seat, I notice that my ex boyfriend is unusually quiet....pensive. I ask what's wrong, but he refuses to answer me. Finally, we get home, go up to my bedroom, and I ask it again, 'What's the problem with you???' And he says, 'I can't believe your brother just sat there and let me pay that bill.'

What in the actual fuck???

Relationship didn't last much longer.

[Bertrand]

lol yeah that ending really surprised me, like um dude you lead everyone to believe that's what you wanted, what did you expect?? further bloody marys are my favorite mixed drink I don't care if its not manly, I will drink bloody mary's all night. but not if its super busy because they can take a while to prepare

I really really don't understand how someone can pass themselves off as altruistic with the expectation other people will stop them. it completely explodes the notion of altriusm, no wonder these people don't believe it exists. they're literally only trying to create the impression of it, like its a total joke and doesn't really exist, yet nevertheless in some sense trying to extract the benefit from it all at the same time. this is precisely how you know there's a Ti/Fe Te/Fi divide and its super real. i mean whatever you want to call or categorize it is fine, but its definitely a thing that people cognize the situation from very different sides

Bad is Gaben, who does not dream of being an intuitive ethic. One young but capable and very characteristic representative of the type spent a lot of effort to prove that he Yesenin - naturally, with the opposite result. However, according to the analysis of speech, they can indeed be mistaken: quests, dynamics and positivists.

Those who do not pass the qualified typing of Gabenshi sometimes assure themselves and others that they are Huxley. However, and from the version taken from the ceiling of Hamlet or Esenin they are unlikely to refuse.

In general, of all types, Gabeny experiences the greatest doubt as a result of typing - at least as well as with the suggestive intuition of possibilities. After touching a bunch of strange and unprofessional diagnoses, they greedily try on them - and sometimes instead of one correct version they are proud to wear a good half of the sotsion.

source

[niffer]

Yeah and I guess that this is the whole point of this system in that the perspective you're coming from is the main determinant of whether or not a behavior is acceptable. I feel somewhat similarly to you, though I haven't waited tables.

Speaking of nonsense 'charm' though and how disgusting it really is: Some years ago I had a boyfriend who was meeting my brother and his girlfriend for the first time. We all go out to breakfast--have the whole shebang, coffee, breakfast with sides, bloody mary, etc., and when the bill comes, it's naturally quite expensive. Everyone reaches for their wallets to pay their share. But the boyfriend halts them, and says, 'No, no, please. . . I've got this.' My brother was pretty surprised and says, 'Really man? That's super nice of you, thanks. . .I really appreciate it.' Well, on the way home with my brother and his gf in the front seat, I notice that my ex boyfriend is unusually quiet....pensive. I ask what's wrong, but he refuses to answer me. Finally, we get home, go up to my bedroom, and I ask it again, 'What's the problem with you???' And he says, 'I can't believe your brother just sat there and let me pay that bill.'

What in the actual fuck???

Relationship didn't last much longer.

Your reaction to me makes me think strong yet unconscious Fi

You haven’t verbalized to us what you find “wtf” about it, just did an o_o face and implied it.

Externally emoting like this is Fe btw

[Dee]

Hi, i think you are Estj rather, because you are alike to my Lse cousin. Your periodic jerky (in the sense abrupt) moves and visible tesion give away Ej.

[niffer]

Hi, i think you are Estj rather, because you are alike to my Lse cousin. Your jerky moves and visible tesion give away Ej.

Oh wait sorry I thought this was Delilah’s typing thread and I clicked constructive sarcastically because I thought it was so retarded but nevermind oops

I think it’s retarded anyway though tbh

[senki]

Hi, i think you are Estj rather, because you are alike to my Lse cousin. Your periodic jerky (in the sense abrupt) moves and visible tesion give away Ej.

Haha, I might be jerky and awkward af, but I am definitely not ESTj. My ex husband was pretty surely ESTj, and I don't even know how these people exist without having a heart infarct by their mid thirties. If I am in fact ESTj, I am the most languid, lethargic one there ever was. I have been accused multiple times in my life of being unengaged and not proactive enough for people's tastes. It's a big reason why I keep leaning toward Ip temperament, though some here have also suggested Ij could be a possibility.

[Myst]

If choosing between IEI and ILI that would be more like ILI. You do not speak like IEI and you appear thinking. The description of Te in socionics or MBTI is not some super-accurate for everybody, and very often to have it their way you need to have it properly developed, so you need to work hard on that. If you don't work hard then you wont have ANY personality.

Also, if you are woman and you are confused whatever you are IEI or ILI then it's likely ILI. It's because it's thinking type and as women are more feeling regardless of the type, so it's harder to settle on thinking type. And you don't say that IEI is obvious but you have doubts.

You do not appear to have Fe expressed on your face, and in women it's quite easy to spot, but not every time but that's my guess.

Another possibility would be that you are IEI-Ni so you don't express much of Fe. But hey, just go and try doing something ILI can only do and not IEI. Maybe try computer programming and see if you are good in it. But again, women may have less inclinations to do it, but IEI would know it's not for him straight away.

Anyway, I've never seen in my life feeling type programming and I've seen many.

Jesus, you and your weird incredibly limited stereotypes and you dare to call yourself an ENxx type?

My ESI-Fi ex bf is a programmer. Fi lead, extra strengthened Fi, and a programmer. Yup. I was kind of dating an IEI-Fe guy too and he was a chief architect (software architect) and programmed a lot in IT. He actually taught me some programming too when I was a beginner at it.

[Myst]

Haha, I might be jerky and awkward af, but I am definitely not ESTj. My ex husband was pretty surely ESTj, and I don't even know how these people exist without having a heart infarct by their mid thirties. If I am in fact ESTj, I am the most languid, lethargic one there ever was. I have been accused multiple times in my life of being unengaged and not proactive enough for people's tastes. It's a big reason why I keep leaning toward Ip temperament, though some here have also suggested Ij could be a possibility.

How were your interactions with the LSE husband, main positives, main negatives?

I glanced at your video and some of your posts in this thread, my guess is LII>IEI for now.

You are a clear Intuitive overall, though.

In terms of things that I don't like in relationships, I would say communicating in a formulaic, prescribed, or linear way. An example I have of that is that I have a friend (who has somehow remained a friend, against all odds) who whenever she messages me or talks to me is like 'hey, how are you?' and then proceeds to ask what I would regard as extremely mundane questions, like, 'How is work going?' or 'What did you do this weekend?' as if we're having small talk at a water cooler at work or something---but we've known each other for almost a decade! When I ask her questions, she seems to answer in this very superficial manner that doesn't evidence any unique inner attitude or perception in regards to what she is talking about. She will talk a lot about series she's watching, or when her next grad school class is starting. . .I just find it entirely unstimulating and it takes a lot of energy to keep up communication with her. She also often nudges me to do yoga, which I regard as mildly irritating, especially because it's been like 5 years and you'd think by now she'd understand that I'm uninterested and it just isn't going to happen. She is definitely a well-meaning and kind person, though, much kinder than most, but I just can't keep interested. . .it's just baffling to me, because I get the sense she feels stimulated by the interaction.

You don't ever like to talk about what you are involved with?

[squark]

Yeah and I guess that this is the whole point of this system in that the perspective you're coming from is the main determinant of whether or not a behavior is acceptable. I feel somewhat similarly to you, though I haven't waited tables.

Speaking of nonsense 'charm' though and how disgusting it really is: Some years ago I had a boyfriend who was meeting my brother and his girlfriend for the first time. We all go out to breakfast--have the whole shebang, coffee, breakfast with sides, bloody mary, etc., and when the bill comes, it's naturally quite expensive. Everyone reaches for their wallets to pay their share. But the boyfriend halts them, and says, 'No, no, please. . . I've got this.' My brother was pretty surprised and says, 'Really man? That's super nice of you, thanks. . .I really appreciate it.' Well, on the way home with my brother and his gf in the front seat, I notice that my ex boyfriend is unusually quiet....pensive. I ask what's wrong, but he refuses to answer me. Finally, we get home, go up to my bedroom, and I ask it again, 'What's the problem with you???' And he says, 'I can't believe your brother just sat there and let me pay that bill.'

What in the actual fuck???

Relationship didn't last much longer.

It's cultural - in some places you're supposed to refuse an offer/invitation multiple times to be polite. It kind of depends on your family and/or where you were raised. So, he was probably used to other people refusing his offer and/or chipping in to help with the bill, and was surprised by the different reaction. The whole offering and refusing thing is a weird ritual to be sure if you're not used to it, but whether you grew up with that or not isn't type-related. If you travel very much you'll quickly see how easy something that is rude one place is polite another, and most people just take it for granted that others will operate the same way they do.

[niffer]

It's cultural - in some places you're supposed to refuse an offer/invitation multiple times to be polite. It kind of depends on your family and/or where you were raised. So, he was probably used to other people refusing his offer and/or chipping in to help with the bill, and was surprised by the different reaction. The whole offering and refusing thing is a weird ritual to be sure if you're not used to it, but whether you grew up with that or not isn't type-related. If you travel very much you'll quickly see how easy something that is rude one place is polite another, and most people just take it for granted that others will operate the same way they do.

Given these people are all in positions where they should be culturally aware towards one another already though the boyfriend’s reaction was obviously inappropriate— given senki’s genuinely surprised reaction to his behaviour.

[Bertrand]

this kind of behavior seems antithetical to Fi, which is about saying what you mean. sure a Fi type in a Fe environment could be raised to believe this sort of ritual is normal, but I don't think they would have invented it, because its too disingenuous. i imagine if we took a poll more Fe types would think this sort of thing is normal and not weird. its about from where the rights and duties flow: its not about paying its about offering to pay and the expectation being that, despite not really wanting to, its okay to offer, and then place the burden on the environment to stop you. its hard for me to imagine Fi thinking its the environments responsibility to dispense values. Fi is about taking responsibility for what information you ethically issue, i.e.: it is individualist. my read on this situation is he's expecting some kind of validation from the collective and they tried to respect him as an individual making a choice for himself. he found this odd because the collective is supposed to "protect" the individual and that individual initiatives of this sort are seen as a kind of "insanity" (basically saying "im a kamikaze for the group"). obviously anything can be built into a tradition so to say something is cultural is meaningless, since literally anything can be upended by "culture" which is really just a collectivist imposition on what would otherwise be an individual's natural inclination. "culture" as artificiality and system can take any form. in essence this guy was signalling his willingess to sacrifice for the collective, but its the collectives responsibility to "save" him, its a kind of beta-virtue signalling with a reciprocal gesture of group "belonging" in the form of them not asking him to sacrifice and willing to look after him. if this seems like the kind of thing that could pop up anywhere and people would just accept it you are wrong, even in a environment where this prevails some people will hate this. the idea of ESI doing this and meaning the same thing is preposterous, because they would accomplish signalling to the collective they love them precisely by going through with paying and being happy to. this is what people don't understand about Fi, that last part about actually wanting to

[niffer]

^ I know what you’re saying wrt Fe unspoken ‘rules’ but Fi leads and Fi types in general still don’t necessarily always say what they mean...

[senki]

How were your interactions with the LSE husband, main positives, main negatives?

The relationship from my perspective largely consisted of him telling me to do stuff, usually with a sense of immediacy, when it was often something I felt could surely wait, and he was almost parental about it in that brow-beating way. Also, very focused on chores and the like. We are still friends, because we can enjoy each other's company as long as we're not around each other constantly. He still even calls me sometimes urging me to do shit, but it of course is more amusing now than extremely irritating because it's not a part of daily life.

Some things I really appreciate about him is that he is indeed a very loyal person and supportive in a practical way, definitely took care of me on an Si level when I was unwell, and arranged doctors appointments for me sometimes when we lived in his native country, so I really did value his care, even if sometimes he can get a little intense with his health suggestions and remedies, etc. A good example of this is that a couple months ago, I had some kind of bronchitis for which he suggested this herbal antibiotic that one needed to take like, 3 times a day, 5 pills at a time. It seemed a bit much to me, so I just decided to wait the infection out and let it resolve on it's own. He called me a number of times to ask if I had taken the medicine, and when I said no, seemed very irritated and bewildered by this and as much as his nagging was very annoying for me, I also still admire the fact that he has an extremely strong work ethic. We came here to Germany together and he spoke about A2-low B1 level German. He took a job working with electric cables in manholes, which was really shit work, and he had to deal with being berated and yelled at in a language he didn't feel all that competent speaking just yet. Now, he's been here 3 years, is completely fluent in German, and has worked his way up with a number of promotions within that same company. So, mad respect for that.

Regarding talking about things I'm involved with, I don't think that's the problem with the discussions with my friend that I described above. I of course speak to other friends about what's going on in my and their lives, but it tends to develop very organically, almost tangentially, whereas with the friend mentioned above, it feels formulaic and predictable/stiff to me. Furthermore, her reactions always seem only connected to the here and now and never shift to anything outside of that. . .she doesn't give personal anecdotes from the past, or really express her sentiments in any way. She's also kind of a Pollyanna and is, in my opinion, unjustifiably positive at all times, but that's a whole other matter.

[squark]

Given these people are all in positions where they should be culturally aware towards one another already though the brother’s reaction was obviously inappropriate— given senki’s genuinely surprised reaction to his behaviour.

Eh, they wouldn't necessarily be aware, and she was surprised by her boyfriend's reaction, not her brother's. She didn't give any kind of background, and if this is the first time her boyfriend and brother had eaten together in this context, how would either of them know how the other was going to react?

[niffer]

Eh, they wouldn't necessarily be aware, and she was surprised by her boyfriend's reaction, not her brother's. She didn't give any kind of background, and if this is the first time her boyfriend and brother had eaten together in this context, how would either of them know how the other was going to react?

Yeah I edited it. And they’d know because these things are cultural norms which should be fairly stable outside of having to know individuals that well. And even if they didn’t know otherwise, why would the boyfriend complain like that about a family member? I’m pretty sure that’s not a good idea in nearly any culture.

[Bertrand]

^ I know what you’re saying wrt Fe unspoken ‘rules’ but Fi leads and Fi types in general still don’t necessarily always say what they mean...

yes true, Fi types can lie. anyone can lie, its not really about the disjunction between thought and word, its more about blaming the collective for not seeing through it. Fi takes it upon itself to see and be seen through, thats the difference. Fe wants the environment to supply that

[niffer]

It’s not even about lying necessarily but just being indirect and vague, or withholding being blunt and honest.

It’s oversimplifying a lot to think all circumstances of “not saying what you mean” are limited to lying lol.

[Bertrand]

yeah outright lies are just the limit case which includes the rest, the main thing is Fi takes the responsibility to play that "ethical game" in an individual capacity, i.e.: not outsourcing it. meaning not being surprised when people take them up on their offers because the expectation the environment owes them anything is not there. if they really felt the environment owed them something Fi is far more like to blurt out "I'm a guest--you are all paying for me" and just shitting all over the Fe. of course they would never get into that position to begin with which is why such things rarely or never actually happen, but in theory Fi has within it the capacity to oppose its will to the collectives in the ethical sphere. technically strong Fe types do too, but they usually do it a way that "leads" doesn't destroy the Fe, you could think of EII or EIE handling things very gracefully and essentially getting what they want and influencing the collective to want it too. this is essentially diplomacy

[squark]

Yeah I edited it. And they’d know because these things are cultural norms which should be fairly stable outside of having to know individuals that well. And even if they didn’t know otherwise, why would the boyfriend complain like that about a family member? I’m pretty sure that’s not a good idea in nearly any culture.

Families are different, people are raised differently, and you don't have any of that information. That's why I included family environment as well as larger cultural context. And by saying "why would the boyfriend complain like that about a family member" you're showing one of the rules that you were raised with, other people wouldn't see this as a problem. That you assume it's a universal rule that everyone follows was my point. . . most people think that what they do is a universal standard even when it's not.

[niffer]

Families are different, people are raised differently, and you don't have any of that information. That's why I included family environment as well as larger cultural context. And by saying "why would the boyfriend complain like that about a family member" you're showing one of the rules that you were raised with, other people wouldn't see this as a problem. That you assume it's a universal rule that everyone follows was my point. . . most people think that what they do is a universal standard even when it's not.

Do you actually know even one person who wouldn’t see this as a problem?

Also by saying that cultural norms exist, it implies that people can be aware of them. I’m not arguing that they were all aware— I’m saying that it’s possible to be aware of the general norms even if not the more individual family ones. Senki expressing her frustration was about this perhaps, in combination with the complaint over it I’m guessing.

[Bertrand]

Families are different, people are raised differently, and you don't have any of that information. That's why I included family environment as well as larger cultural context. And by saying "why would the boyfriend complain like that about a family member" you're showing one of the rules that you were raised with, other people wouldn't see this as a problem. That you assume it's a universal rule that everyone follows was my point. . . most people think that what they do is a universal standard even when it's not.

technically its all family right down to the genes, which is strong aristocratism in a nutshell. you can view the world through that lens but its just more beta interpretation. to say its family is trivial. its like you don't even need socionics if its all bloodlines and norms. i.e.: you already have the system

[senki]

I’m saying that it’s possible to be aware of the general norms even if not the more individual family ones. Senki expressing her frustration was about this perhaps, in combination with the complaint over it I’m guessing.

My frustration had nothing to do with social norms. There are behavioral norms I may not love but still follow because I think they have some utility and make things go smoother if followed. The frustration had to do with the fact he was full of shit and just acting nice without meaning it at all, just to make an impression.

[niffer]

My frustration had nothing to do with social norms. There are behavioral norms I may not love but still follow because I think they have some utility and make things go smoother if followed. The frustration had to do with the fact he was full of shit and just acting nice without meaning it at all, just to make an impression.

Alright. If that’s not strong demonstrative Fi with creative Fe I don’t know what is.

[niffer]

Yes. Me. I don't see it as a problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with her boyfriend telling her that he was upset by her brother. I wouldn't have gotten upset at what he did, because I wouldn't offer to pay for everyone unless I meant it. But if I was upset about something a boyfriend's family member did and he asked me about it, I see no reason why I wouldn't tell him what it was.


I don't know what you're trying to say.

I skimmed over the part where she asked him multiple times and he was just answering her. In that case it’s normal to me nevermind.

What I was trying to say is people can have the ability to be aware of norms like that for any given situation, and this can cause frustration for some people understandably IMO. But OP is saying it wasn’t what bothered her so it’s not important anymore.

[Bertrand]

Yes. Me. I don't see it as a problem. I don't think there's anything wrong with her boyfriend telling her that he was upset by her brother. I wouldn't have gotten upset at what he did, because I wouldn't offer to pay for everyone unless I meant it. But if I was upset about something a boyfriend's family member did and he asked me about it, I see no reason why I wouldn't tell him what it was.

that's great but no ones trying to deny him the right to say what he feels later, they're saying his feeling that way is asinine. also if we want to defend his right to be honest for its own sake later in the bedroom why not hold him to that same standard at the dinner table. this is essentially the problem with this kind of ethical sommersault and its subsequent rationalizations, it all devolves into power games where its about who is allowed to control who and when. and the problem is not that people aren't entitled to be that way, its that its insufferable to even try to rationalize it out. one gets the distinct feeling they got lost in their own ritual and just expect other people to give up and let it ride when its easier to just avoid this kind of mess to begin with. the second you go down the byzantine structure of making sense of this sort of thing you realize the best game is not to play, which is what the disgust is telling you. its saying this is an inherently unnatural unhealthy way of being. this is precisely what informational level Fi works on to handle relations