Demonstrative and Mobilizing functions are Accepting NOT Producing.

[Soupman]

@Soupman

Correct. I don't call my work Socionics anymore. I view it as Analytical Psychology. An improvement of Socionics, the same way Socioncis improved on Jung's work..


Not misconception. Correction.

Just to clarify, I'm not insulting you but you have a misconception because you haven't demonstrated the ability to understand the classical interpretation on it's own terms. Nevertheless you don't care about about the classical ideas, but that's okay, instead you've gone your own way.

What is the difference between IEE and EII? Ne Dom with Fi Aux (using Jung's words) vs. Fi Dom vs Ne Aux. This is the original block that Jung discovered, now called the ego block. This dom/aux (base/creative) is the same as the accepting/producing dichotomy in the ego block (and super-ego blocks). Once you think about it, you realize that you can get rid of the dichotomy because it's already built-in the modal, at least in the conscious blocks because of the dimensions. The stronger function in the block, i.e. higher dimensions is always accepting, while lower is producing, again in the conscious blocks. So up until here, this is all standard modern Socionics but reduced, as seen in the chart below.

BTW by throwing away the classical interpretation of producing and accepting,you've lost the ability to understand and explain why rationality is important - why the intertype relations between those dyads are always "off" and disorientating especially between mirror types.

You need to interact with rational types - especially INFJ ENFJ INTJ, to feel that dissonance in priority and confusion.

[niffer]

BTW by throwing away the classical interpretation of producing and accepting,you've lost the ability to understand and explain why rationality is important

Ah so that's what it's about. Thanks.

Could you give an example illustrating the effect of accepting/producing (separate from rational/irrational alone) on mirror types?

[Soupman]

Rationality is derived from the dimensions. i.e. whichever function is the dominant and auxiliary in the block.
And dimensions are in classical Socionics albeit not in that form, they are derived from multiplying the strong/weak by the bold/cautious dichotomies, as seen above.

IEE
Irrational in conscious blocks (standard Socionics)
Rational in unconscious blocks (new insight)

    Introversion | Extraversion
            Ti-1 | Se-2 [Super-Ego]
Conscious   Fi-3 | Ne-4 [Ego]
-----------------|-----------------
Unconscious Ni-3 | Fe-4 [Id]
            Si-1 | Te-2 [Super-Id]

EIE
Rational in conscious blocks
Irrational in unconscious blocks

    Introversion | Extraversion
            Si-1 | Te-2 [Super-Ego]
Conscious   Ni-3 | Fe-4 [Ego]
-----------------|-----------------
Unconscious Fi-3 | Ne-4 [Id]
            Ti-1 | Se-2 [Super-Id]

Notice the symmetry in this diagram. If someone prefers introverted judgement consciously then they also prefer extraverted perception consciously and unconsciously they will prefer extraverted judgement and introverted perception. This insight helped me get a good understanding of the unconscious mind compared to the conscious mind.

Your lack of Ti is showing because you are now diging yourself into a bigger hole, now you can't explain why extinguishment relations aren't disorientating but mirror relations happen to be because of the accepting producing misalignment, when instead they share the same dimensionality.

The dimensionality issues in both relations take place under "competition" when both parties find themselves undermining eachother.

[Soupman]

Don't be rude. Your original critique was that I discarded rationality, I proved that I did not. This is a new issue and I have no issue addressing this question. However, you are asking this question in a manner that deflects admitting that I addressed your original point.


e.g.
IEE Fi-3, Ne-4 irrational conscious, rational unconscious
IEI Ni-4, Fe-3 irrational conscious, rational unconscious
EII Fi-4, Ne-3 rational conscious, irrational unconscious

Again you don't need accepting/producing because dimensionality accounts for this by which function is a higher dimension in the blocks.

Sorry about being rude but I'm 4D Ti and extremely sensitive to structural inconsistencies and contradictions.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ment-Relations

V.V. Gulenko "Criteria of reciprocity"


Comfortable discussion


Initiating communication partners are drawn to debate, in which they feel comfortable. The more active partner relays his opinions, while the less active one offers commentary and imparts his corrections. Partners usually appeal to one another with style of behavior. Each other's peculiar thinking style feels like a pleasant surprise. However, in presence of a third party extinguishment effect occurs – your partner impedes your attempts to develop a mutually interesting idea, arguing against it.


Binary signs of intertype relations


For relations of extinguishment, it is not recommended to have discussions in presence of a large audience. In a small circle, there is mutual correction and enrichment with new factual information, but if relations become more extraverted then th unpleasant process of extinguishment will begin – this manifests as arguing against each other's propositions without substantiation.


In extinguishment relations partners can predict each other's behavior quite well. This becomes uninteresting, especially if their behavior is rationalized. This pair needs to engage in periodic relaxed philosophizing and critical analysis of events around them. The pair is very flexible and adapts to the stresses of changing environment.


In extinguishment pair, the flaws of the other partner are easily visible. Accusations of not thinking things through, skepticism, and criticism are all too common. These relations should not be approached emotionally – deep emotional grievances will tear them apart. While meticulously counting the flaws of the partner you forget about vulnerability of your position – your own flaws which he also easily sees.


In relations of extinguishment you are interested in the methods of your partner, his concepts, the general principles of how he operates, rather than his actual achievements and current status. There is persistent hope to use his methods to "arm" yourself, but it does not have sufficient grounds. Extinguishment partners quite successfully predict the behavior of each other.


In extinguishment relations, emotional dynamics do not take the first place but rather the sudden changes in behavior of your partner. In these relations partners can predict the success or failure of another, so any deviations deserve attention. These relations have a "cushioning" effect i.e. soften potential damage but also play down success. Partners as if vibrate in opposite phases.


In these relations, any aspirations that seem too extremist or made unduly important are cut off. This critical fitting of opinions and intentions culminates in rather tolerant attitude towards behavior of one another. Here one can observe the process of coming to middle ground which suits both partners, even if it is far from their original ideal.


Advice for getting along


Comfort in these relations can be achieved by communicating in a narrow circle of friends or associates. Extinguishment effect gets triggered in presence of other people – partners begin to challenge the views of another without providing solid arguments to back up their points of view. Learn to knowingly accept criticisms of each other and to derive benefit from them – your ideas and incentive in the light of criticism of extinguishment partner will become more realistic.


Get your contrary partner involved when you need to critically evaluate something or make a forecast of a project. Do not expect your partner to participate in the implementation of your plans. Collaborative technical work will proceed very slowly and follow a strict route.


If relations are upset, do not try to resolve them on an emotional level. Separate and spend some time alone, then resume relations as if nothing had happened. Be interested in new information that will give you both food for thought and discussion.


Periodically discharge accumulated irritation through jokes and humor. From time to time, arrange a delicious meal with your favorite food and drinks. Treat each other with pleasantries and remedies. Combine your ideas for practical use - not for finding the ultimate truth. Find answers to your questions in past experiences.

Country relationships are boring because you value different communication styles (NiSe vs SiNe) but are smooth because rationality is the same.
Mirror relationships are interesting because you value the same communication style but aren't smooth because rationality is reversed.

You are now mistaking superego relations with extinguishment which are instead suppressive as the superego and ego cannot surface at the same time.

Extinguishment is actually weird, it is very attractive and relaxing at close communicative distances since both type share complementary perspectives from the opposite viewpoint.
For example "Ne" actually brings interesting ideas to the table whilst "Ni" re-frames and reanalyses these ideas exposing hidden meanings overlooked by "Ne" which makes the conversations very complementary.

These relations only becomes "extinguishment" when the two types' energy differences are brought to surface were introversion causes the restriction of scope, whilst extroversion expands without attentive analysis of the ideas being examined. Both perspectives are actually important.

[Soupman]

You are now mistaking superego relations with extinguishment

How?

Super-ego is swapped ego/super-ego and id/super-id blocks.
Contrary is swapped ego/id and super-ego/super-id blocks, with the introverted functions being stronger.

Not the same.



Define same time? super-ego and ego are both conscious blocks so you have free will to access them at any time. Technically they cannot be used at the same time since they process different information, NF/ST in my case, but you can freely alternate between the two at will depending on which is more useful in context.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...rego-relations

Valentina Meged, Anatoly Ovcharov However, at closer distances these relations develop into rivalry between the partners. Each one tries to impress the other, to show him his own importance or priority in some area. Difficulties in understanding lead to loss of trust and warm feelings for each other as well as hope that at some point you will be understood correctly. Partners are thus forced to try to readjust to one another, to constantly seek common ground, but the balance in these relations is achieved only for a short period of time. Partners react to each other very sharply and overly emotionally and can unintentionally cause each other pain. Sometimes it seems like the other partner is doing everything in order to spite you. Mutual frustration can develop into acute conflicts, especially in more intimate relations and clashes of personal interests. Mutual deafness manifests in the absence of proper attention to the interests of one another and repeated attempts to impose one's own point of view. A need to rest from such relations arises, after which partners sometimes establish contact again. Lack of understanding and support typically leads to gradual cooling of these relations.

What's written here is what makes these relations difficult because "Superego information" competes with "Ego" information bizarrely because the two perspectives actually share the same orientation. Superego types always seem like their are saying the wrong things because they prefer to formulate things in a different manner which undermines what the Ego prefers.

Take "Ne" and "Se" for example in terms of information:
*Ne looks at general patterns as it formulates and understands its world making observations.
*Se looks at general details whilst formulating its understanding of its world making observations.

Because both elements are conscious - they are capable of being "focused on", so for one to be ON the other has to be OFF, therein the confusion and frustration in both Superego and Business relations. IEE will find SEE frustrating at close distances because they'll ignore the "Ne" from IEE suppressing them instead pay attention to obscure details formulating their world in a manner that isn't familiar and not quite right (the same frustration is felt in reverse). Without being an intentional douche-bag there's always the feeling that the other person is trying to undermine you, but also they don't understand you understanding things from an alien perspective. It's actually draining to suppress your ego, turning off so you can consciously focus on paying attention to opposite information. We only process information in the style of our superego when we feel it's absolutely necessary to do so.

For example, you'll only use "Se" informationally when you find it absolutely important to pay attention to minor details as accurately as their are, making broad observations; whereas SEEs (and SLE) by default are always taking minor details seriously and they only look at broad patterns when it's necessary (hence their Ne is turned off).

The ID functions instead are always in the background, unconscious surfacing as necessary. Information wise, they are just the EGO area but examined with a different lens.

[Tigerfadder]

There is no such thing as +/- functions. That's a misunderstanding of block theory. Those functions arise because of the interaction in the block, they do not exist as separate functions.

Duals don't have opposite accepting/producing. Under Modal A IEE has 3D Ni accepting, 4D Fe producing. SLI has 2D Ni accepting, 1D Fe producing. So the IEE has a weaker function (3D vs 4D) as accepting in their NiFe block while SLI has a stronger (2D vs 1D) function as their accepting in NiFe block. This means these are effectively 2 different block. Does this make sense? Can I make this anymore simple? I'm not going to repeat myself anymore.

You are the first one who bring up signs and also, it is just what is derived from this stuff: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...c-of-Functions