DCNH rant, my own useful perspective

[Myst]

EJ subtype can be someone that focuses on career for both men and women. I guess in some cases of EJ woman and IJ man, the man can still be more career focused (although not in a manager position), but the woman is leading the social life. Maybe they mostly spend time with the womans female friends. With EJ man and IJ woman, the man usually earns way more than the woman, and in some cases (depending on culture) the woman might stay at home.

IJ subtype, as I said, is a house wife for women, and a handyman home fixer for men.

IP subtype for men is a "nice guy", someone that is idealizing women and acting like a gentleman. They are often friends with the EP woman originally and then eventually it gets more intimate. It might be an open or loose relationship where the woman is seeing other men, and the man may or may not be ok with it, but he stays with her anyways. IP woman is the fan girl. There's some EP guy that might be an athlete, musician, or just some popular guy that the IP woman is stalking and trying to get the attention of.

EP subtypes for both men and women can be athletes, musicians etc, or just someone with an active social life that focuses on fun activities. Men often sleep around, sometimes women too but not as commonly. The men usually have a hard time settling down. Men are the most likely to end up as athletes/musicians or any sort of professional entertainer, and for women it's usually more focused on social things. In EP/IP relationships, the EP might earn way more than the IP, or the EP might be completely broke, and the IP takes care of him/her. For example if you're a musician it can either go really well or it can go nowhere. A common thing is an EP man and IP woman, where the IP woman takes care of him and helps him reach his dreams

Still doesn't work for me. None of these descriptions fit, except the career thing somewhat for D/EJ. How about the D/EJ with 1D Fe as in my case? I won't be the leader of any social life lol. I may sort of have more Fe energy than an LSI-N for example, but it's not directed into socializing for the sake of pure fun socializing much... into the goals instead.

[Myst]

You might be an exception to the rule, these are just generalizations. Based on how you come off to me, I think you would fit with an EIE EJ with a wide social circle, because you don't seem very socially initiating from the little I have seen of you, but I obviously don't know what you're like irl. That would make you IJ, and you would be the IJ that is career focused but not really very expansive, more of a reliable partner with a good career that can keep things orderly and planned. I explained this as a female EJ/male IJ dynamic, but it might be more of a NF EJ/ST IJ dynamic and not necessarily related to gender.

Because it seems to me that you would want an EIE that is good with people that EIEs usually are, and that would make them EJ in my system, because there are EIEs that go against the norm and don't have many friends. But again, I'm speculating

Lol well I'm not a house wife type and I don't care about planning and order to the degree an LSI-N would: they would doubly care because 1. LSI 2. N/IJ subtype and I definitely don't care THIS MUCH. I plan the least amount needed to get moving unless I indulge in extra details sometimes (depends on topic/situation too). And I do organize important stuff for orderliness and I look organized enough but the orderliness type of organizing always lags behind the goals and my drive for these goals. Where the two coincide well is for the areas most important to me personally e.g. my training. There the organization almost fully catches up with the drive to get to the goal. Because I have really strong focus on the topic then? In terms of work however I just do as much organization as I need to. Still decent ofc

Fundamentally I don't care enough about orderliness precisely because it would stifle the energy that drives me ahead. It's too contained. I'm not very expansive compared to an SLE for example but this extra restrained orderliness/planning is just stifling to me energetically. I will do it if I must, yeah, but not what I naturally fall into as my overall focus for life.

Maybe you are confusing my base Ij temperament with the DCNH N/IJ? It's true I'm *not* socially initiating just for fun. I'm able to get very initiating for a goal though or sometimes for voicing opinions lol and then the Fe energy is probably poured into that. What was written about that above in some post totally fit me (Fe or E of D subtype).

Also, I don't really want an EIE-D though it's better than EIE-C, for sure, based on descriptions at least I get the pov of EIE-D way more easily. The EIE I've felt dualized the most with ever in my life so far is an EIE-N. She kind of is not as social as the EIE stereotype is but she's clearly EIE still. She still is all Fe Fe Fe Fe lol. But N makes sense for her, for example she actually pays attention to stability and plans more than I do lol... I start to fall asleep at the idea of being a "reliable partner with a good career that can keep things orderly and planned". But thinking of this further, I kind of want that kind of partner (but who also has Fe). Yeah.

[Myst]

Oh alright, well maybe you are EJ then. As I said, I'm just talking out of my ass here, so don't take it too personally. And I didn't mean to imply that you're a housewife lmao, because I definitely don't think that. As I said, you don't fit the generalization. Well if you're an EJ, then you need to be the one making the move, because I doubt an EIE IJ will do that, even males. How do you feel about that?

I wasn't taking it personally . Why do you think EIE IJ doesn't make any moves? What kind of moves? I'm really curious here. Don't expect me to make a move emotionally but in any other area yeah no problem.

Actually no, you can't be an EJ in my system, because I defined it as literally being a leader, the entire point of this was to get away with ambiguity.

You can't satisfy both goals of removing ambiguity and of covering everything about people's behavioural roles in only a few options.

I think you still fulfill the requirements to be in the IJ category.

If I say that too much focus on orderliness and planning stifles my energy then how do I fulfill those requirements. Or if I relate more to taking charge than to being a housewife.

I guess it depends on what your career is like, and also if you have the balls to go and hit on guys and make the first move. Maybe you do, idk. I guess you don't have to be an official manager, what matters is how you act at work. Do you act as a leader at work or in any other area of your life?

I like to take charge, yah. I just don't keep taking initiative all the time. That's why I don't see myself as "pure" a leader as a D-Exxj would be. That is, I'm either involved and influencing things or I'm not involved and I just watch until I get involved at some point and the latter is the default even if it doesn't last long before moving into action, depending on situation. Basically the default Ij cognition is there needing a clear orientation first and needing to first see a point to get involved.

Answered the question about making the move on guys above. But more on that too, I'm not extraverted enough to initiate right away and there's the Ne PoLR too wanting a clear view of the situation first (same theme as with taking charge) but when I get impatient, I don't care about any of the Ne PoLR or anything else anymore lol. And I do get to that point of impatience if they don't initiate and I really like the guy.

One more thing. N's are followers? The thing is I decide for myself for the direction in any situation (where I am involved), if I can't have influence for that, I really really dislike that and I try to get influence.

[Myst]

@Myst Hmmm, yeah you're right, there's another category of people that wanna do everything their own way, but that leave other people out of it. It reminds me of something a I read about "Zeta males", there's Alpha leaders, Beta followers, Omegas are losers I think, and then there's Zeta males, that reject the social order and go their own way. They are like leaders, but no one follows them. Personally, I think those guys are still losers and just pretending to be independent of the social order. You're essentially King Nothing, what's the point.

I wasn't talking about this Zeta thing actually. I actually find social order important BTW

But anyways, I don't think it works like that for women. Women aren't hierarchical the same way as men are.

I am. I already cared about hierarchy of society in middle school lol

Many of my goals are to do with it. (Not all of them, though, I'm more complex than that. )

You know what, you convinced me I'm wrong, I'm not taking those people into account, and they do exist. I'm gonna call people that wanna make desicions but that no one follows EJ as well. Because you're in the leader mind set, which is what matters, you just suck at it, because how are you gonna get anywhere without help. It's like a not very actualized EJ. I guess that's how cults are formed, you have some loner that refuses to fit in the social order, and then some gullible idiot starts to follow, and before you know it there's a whole group. Because yeah I'd argue that IJ subtypes would be betas, and you don't qualify as beta if you can't stay in line.

I personally wouldn't call that a leader mindset. Well ok if the person is able to form a cult then yeah it's a leader after all. But if they are just existing on their own and not having influence then nah

And now that I think about it, I need to add this layer of nuance to the other subtypes as well... I guess someone can also be IJ subtype even if they aren't organized for example. You could still be oriented that way, but because of cirumstances you live in temporary chaos. Because it happens, sometimes people will end up in new situations where they need to organized things, and even though they are orderly people it's just too much for them.

Sure. In my case though, even though I had some periods in life where I was less orderly than my default so I get your idea, when I'm back to default, it's simply still got a limit, because going past that it'd stifle the D or Te/Fe/Se energy. I get this funny contradiction sometimes actually due to it though Because I do find orderliness neat but then I just can't/won't contradict that energy with too much orderliness but then I get a bit unsatisfied because things are not as neat as I'd like them to be in the back of my mind. But I never get the time to satisfy that little Ij thing in the back of my mind. Or, when I want to follow a rule of mine really consistently, and if this gets in the way of the D energy, then lol... The rule following does tend to win out though unless I have to follow a higher order rule than that one but that's still consistency of the more important stuff. But there is a reason why I do not have as many nuanced rules overall as some LSIs I've seen do - I focus on other things too (my goals).

I'm gonna add an extra thing to the subtypes to take all of this into account. You're an EJ 0 subtype, meaning you aren't actualized. In situations where you act as a leader, you're EJ 1, and to become fully actualized you should be in a permanent leader position. Because let's be real, not everyone with a leader mindset can be a leader, but that is what they should strive for.

EJ 1 is basically the traditional idea of a leader, you're the boss, people work for you. EJ 0 is a bit like the zeta males, loners that refuse to adjust to the social order.

I'll be EJ 2 then. Because I'm not 100% fitting your categories again, sorry. Like I said, I'm Ixxj-D, not Exxj-D and to me the traditional leader is the latter: always on the move, always interacting with people, not just after the initial consideration period. Maybe we don't mean the same things by it tho', however you also assumed a leader is about socializing too, instead of just going for goals. If I misunderstood something there, let me know tho' sure.

And I still don't see where you got the idea (when calling me EJ 0) that I'm a loner who doesn't care about society or social order or about how to actually influence people to achieve my goals, or lead a group when I'm involved for the group goal, etc.

[Myst]

Not EJ 2, it's a spectrum, let's say that EJ 1 is the traditional leader and EJ 0 is a goal driven and natural leader that doesn't lead anyone. What both EJs have in common is that they wanna make desicions, but one of them has no direct influence on people. The scale of 0 - 1 is how much influence you have. So you might be EJ 0.5. Wouldn't you agree that an EJ is more effective if he/she has an influence on people? If you dont care about having an influence, then you might as well follow someone else

Your idea of EJ 0 makes zero sense. Since if someone is *goal driven* (using your wording), that actually means they actually are out there acting to get the goals. And to get to the goals you have to have influence on people. It's not some theoretical thing in the imagination.

[FDG]

That's exactly why I defined EJ as a literal leader in the beginning, but you couldn't relate to that but still said you were EJ. And besides, you can be goal driven without influencing people if you are unsuccessful. It's not a theoretical thing in the imagination, it's a character trait.

But doesn't that depend a lot on environment / skills? Just using myself as example, I've been both a respected contributor, with prizes and so on at some things and a complete failure, fired after 2 days at some others. And I think I´m not the only one being like this.

Some leadership skills also have to do with someone´s natural...energy? In the environment. Some people just have it, they enter a room and they make an impact just by being there.

[Myst]

That's exactly why I defined EJ as a literal leader in the beginning, but you couldn't relate to that but still said you were EJ. And besides, you can be goal driven without influencing people if you are unsuccessful. It's not a theoretical thing in the imagination, it's a character trait.

So you do have an influence on people then? That makes you a leader to a degree. If you're the kind of person that wants to influence people then you're a leader as far as character traits go. But you said you didn't relate to the traditional leader idea, so I'm guessing you don't have a lot of influence. Is that because you've tried and failed, or is it because you don't care that much about controlling people?

I'll say it once more: yes, when I'm actively involved with people for a goal, I do care for and achieve influence to get to the goal. This is substantial to me in my personality and in my drive. So yep call me a leader in terms of that.

But no, I'm not the extraverted leader who's 100% social and extraverted all the time. That is what I cannot relate to. It's because I'm just not extraverted to that degree. I do easily get controlling lol but I'm just not extraverted social like that type of leader. I don't care about the social aspect of control beyond what's strictly required to achieve goals.

This all goes back to that DCNH D Fe question we had originally, lol.

Your question about trying and failing btw is weird, it seems like you are thinking of this in a really black and white manner. Like you can only succeed always or can only fail always. I agree with @FDG about this topic.

EDIT: Maybe we'll get on the same page better if you tell me what you mean by having a lot of influence. For me influence is dynamic, amount of influence in a given moment or situation dynamically varies: it's based on the goal I want to reach. If it needs a lot of influence then I will ensure to achieve a lot of influence and on the other hand if it needs only the recruitment of 1-2 people or recruitment only for a short time, then I will have only as much focus on influence as those 1-2 people or for as short a time as needed. Again, I just can't see this as "always 0 influence" or "always a wide sphere of influence". I just see myself as a person who will go out there and will do whatever they need to get done. And again the social thing. I don't care to be socially popular beyond getting influence for these goals, whatever amount of influence is required in a given moment/situation. Or were you asking about my ability for maximal amount of influence?