LIE-SEI conflict reactions (ENTj and ISFp)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

In LIE-SEI conflict relationships how does the LIE get butthurt? Cuz it seems from a kind of a stereotypical shell glance that the LIE is a big bad shark and the SEI is a soft bunny that gets completely devoured by the LIE.

[Bertrand]

I think its exactly that. SEI makes LIE out to look like the bad guy, when SEI is actually the one causing problems

[Adam Strange]

When things go wrong, the SEI makes it seem like every request from the LIE is unreasonable and that LIE’s are disgusting human beings.

There is no remedy for this that I know of, so it’s best to do what you can to not let things get to this point.

[Adam Strange]

Conversation between an LIE and an SEI:

LIE: Do you have this week’s results for your project? It is already late and we need to move on this right away.
SEI: I spent all week doing simulations, but I couldn’t get the code to work.
LIE: So you have no results at all?
SEI: ....
LIE: Jeff, this project is critical. We need your results to show the customer. If you are having problems with the code, you should just let me know right away. We can get someone to help you help with it.
SEI: .....
SEI: .....
LIE: Jeff?
SEI: ...Uh, you talking to me?

[Bertrand]

lol

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

haha yeah but in that example it really seems like the SEI is having his ass handed to him with the Te and I don't see the LIE's Si polr much. Is it because he had to repeat himself three times?

[niffer]

LIEs aren't as comfortable relationally and with their own bodies and aesthetics as SEIs are, I guess...

[lavos]

This conflict relationship is one of the less vitriolic, since SEI's are conflict averse, and LIE's are very pragmatic and don't waste time with foolish individuals.

[Tallmo]

Conflict rel is balance of terror. The distance is adjusted so no open conflict occurs.

I have a LIE friend. Its always great to meet him but we dont meet very often

[The Reality Denialist]

Hmmm...
an example from fiction Better call Saul: Crooked Saul (LIE) gets busted in front of everyone when assistant Francesca (SEI) meets him reveals all of his behind the back maneuvers.

Well, the professional relation was based on Saul's bad handling on details and Francesca's good detail and people skills.

[Tallmo]

In LIE-SEI conflict relationships how does the LIE get butthurt? Cuz it seems from a kind of a stereotypical shell glance that the LIE is a big bad shark and the SEI is a soft bunny that gets completely devoured by the LIE.

I think this is definitely true in a work relationship were the SEI is always weak and the LIE in his ideal environment.

But in more informal relationships the conflict balance occurs.

[FDG]

I remember once, 10 years ago, when I was more of an asshole, I had a SEI-Si in my football team.
He was quite slow and selfish, rarely run towards the ball and complained rather often. I tried my best not to say anything but sometimes he would just get on my nerves with his illogical decisions about shooting from afar, etc etc
However, he was quite friendly and often cooked for the team. His relational ability made it such that people did stuff for him (sometimes) to make up for his screw ups on the pitch. He also seemed to just be a lot more comfortable with his life.

Now I have become a lot more mellow about this kind of stuff. Also because I´ve had my screw ups in life.

I know another SEI-Fe who is a street writer. I find his art really cool, although I could never live his lifestyle.

[Ave]

My aunt is SEI-Si. We get along really well, suprisingly.

I've had two male SEI fiends too, though after a while it became obvious we didn't get along.

When I was studying music, my teacher was SEI. She liked to organize social gatherings with the class, but I can't say I enjoyed the atmosphere. It was very alpha quadra as some of the regulars who went to the gatherings were alpha and I just find that in groups of alphas I seem like the introvert even though I enjoy socialization usually. I think after a while the teacher understood I wasn't well in that group.

Edit: I know these are non-revealing answers to a question that was meant to be revealing. I just don't feel like getting into exactly where my relationships went wrong as its kinda personal. That, and I'm not very self-revealing anyways.

[wasp]

repost but I mean...

[Adam Strange]

^ I don’t think LIE’s are mean. I’ve seen some be huge assholes, but they weren’t being mean.

[Sol]

conflictors issues in superego regions of both
- criticism
- high demands in those regions
- obsessive tryes to make you better by overstimulation
note: all this may to annoy

general conflictor influence
- the disturbance to concetrate the attention
- the irrational rise of anxiety
- the irrational rise of doubts in yourself
- supressing the psyche, may to the degree of a depression
- possible neuroses
note: closer personal distance, more of a communication - the more you get

similar you get in any IR where an opponent has ego function which relates to your superego. conflictors/superego just have it the most. you may to get same problems from weak functions of opponents, but in lesser degree and more limited

[Ave]

^ I don’t think LIE’s are mean. I’ve seen some be huge assholes, but they weren’t being mean.

LIEs ethics is too weak for them to be mean.

People who are mean are often into ethical games and that's not the LIE style.

Some LIEs can be inconsiderate of others' feelings, I don't think they do it on purpose though.

[Adam Strange]

Last week I got a call from a guy who was referring a friend of his to my company. His friend needed some help and was willing to consider trading business equity for it. I wanted to meet this new guy to see if his equity would be worth anything, so I called him and he invited me to his home to talk about the deal and meet his family.
He mentioned that he has a PhD in Analytical Chemistry, so I assumed he was an LII.

When I got to his mid-century modern house, his wife met me at the door. The house was incredibly neat and had brightly colored, bold paintings on the walls. I thought, "She's SEI." And sure enough, when the guy came out to shake my hand, I saw that he is ILE.

He was incredibly smart and incredibly friendly and incredibly optimistic. His optimism overwhelmed any shadows in the corners of the room. But I caught his SEI wife looking at me sometimes with a look of worried caution, as if there were something about me that she really didn't like.

I can't imagine what that might have been.

[Delilah]

I recall how when I first met a LIE ex in college I was with a SEI friend, and SEI was immediately off-put by LIE as soon as he approached me. Basically all he did was introduce himself very formally to me and that was enough for SEI to be disgusted by him. SEI remarked upon him later that he was very "sleazy", lol. She (SEI) was absolutely instantly repelled by this guy. I am not sure what it was that turned her so completely against him, maybe his Te formality (?). Unsure.

[Adam Strange]

LIE's lack the eager, puppy dog, child-like innocence of ILE's. SEI's normally know what they like. They are looking for innocent, precocious children, not jaded grim-dark adults.

I was watching the SEI size me up, trying to figure out what it was about me that she didn't like. Expensive black leather shoes, grey wool slacks, white cotton shirt, expensive jacket, each one examined and no flaw was found but she knew how she felt. I'm pretty sure she had a long talk with the ILE after I left.

[Alonzo]

A particularly jarring aspect of my conflict with SEIs is that I can feel restricted and suffocated by too much "comfort" and "coziness," whether that's being pushed onto me or they're prioritizing that for themselves. I honestly believe that hidden agenda Se and PoLR Si can create a quasi God complex in LIEs > I get a kick out of challenging and defying my corporeal limitations in ways big and small, from triathlons and extreme fasting to not zipping up my jacket on a particularly cold day. lol I like to feel, delusionally or otherwise, as if I'm besting mother nature/conquering the environment and so prioritizing comfort just seems foreign and if being completely honest, albeit a bit unfair, weak in some respects. I'm not saying that "cozy" things and experiences can't be nice (and as I get older, I appreciate them more and more), but it just seems...odd...to prioritize that and especially if I'm really focused on some interesting/compelling/stimulating pursuit, then the instinct is to keep going, push harder and ignore pesky little things like eating, sleeping and breathing. lol

And sometimes I think SEIs, for whom the bible saying "the meek shall inherit the earth" was most likely written (alongside words like 'sheep' that metaphorically represent patience, humility and submission), are easily and understandably put off by the seemingly cognitive antithesis of that, as represented by the LIE--from the perspective of both conflictors, the other forcefully leans into the "functional" traits that most repel them. Interestingly enough, I see the SEI as our fun house mirror reflection > often overworked, misunderstood and underappreciated for all that we do, relentlessly, unceremoniously, day in and day out, just to then be dismissively and condescendingly confined to some one dimensional stereotype that doesn't nearly capture our full complexity > there's a lot more depth to the iceberg than one might guess by simply focusing on what is most readily observable.

[The Reality Denialist]

LIE's are usually dry people who try to talk about real things to get somewhere and do not get jazzed up by their interests with special flair or maybe the interest is in pulling up potatoes from a field... like true try hard Se (this has happened to me once with LIE). I think this can be a huge turn off.

[Alonzo]

LIE's are usually dry people who try to talk about real things to get somewhere and do not get jazzed up by their interests with special flair or maybe the interest is in pulling up potatoes from a field... like true try hard Se (this has happened to me once with LIE). I think this can be a huge turn off.

lol I seriously doubt I'm the only person to have encountered many a I*E that can aggressively overestimate their Role Se to foolish proportions (and especially because it's conscious). So be seated on that one. I*Es are never allowed to pick up "shiny" and "interesting" objects at my place for fear of this >

[The Reality Denialist]

lol I seriously doubt I'm the only person to have encountered many a I*E that can aggressively overestimate their Role Se to foolish proportions (and especially because it's conscious). So be seated on that one. I*Es are never allowed to pick up "shiny" and "interesting" objects at my place for fear of this >

Ye but I do not usually try to impress people with it. Being spazzy and all. I think people just find it funny when you are walking like a drunk while being sober.

[Rebelondeck]

In open warfare, LIEs will usually crush SEIs; however, SEIs rarely participate in open warfare. SEIs tend to have superior self-preservation tools while LIEs put themselves out there for everyone to snipe at. Although SEIs seem to have more difficulty making a name for themselves, they will outlast most LIEs, who tend toward meteoric burnouts........

a.k.a. I/O

[FreelancePoliceman]

LIE's lack the eager, puppy dog, child-like innocence of ILE's. SEI's normally know what they like. They are looking for innocent, precocious children, not jaded grim-dark adults.

I was watching the SEI size me up, trying to figure out what it was about me that she didn't like. Expensive black leather shoes, grey wool slacks, white cotton shirt, expensive jacket, each one examined and no flaw was found but she knew how she felt. I'm pretty sure she had a long talk with the ILE after I left.

Depends on the context, but I'm guessing that to an SEI, wearing expensive clothing and looking overly by-the-book might be a a flaw in itself. They rarely do so themselves, but they generally secretly (and perhaps unconsciously) like people who don't acknowledge the ridiculous formal expectations and culture of "professional" environments -- or disregard it in subtle ways, like leaving collars unbuttoned or whatever. It's probably the ILE-seeking part of them.

In her old retail job, my girlfriend would gossip often with her also-SEI manager about the LIE HR manager. They hated him for perfectly understandable reasons -- he hit on 16-year-olds, he was stupid, he was unbelievably incompetent -- but much of their conversation about him had to do with how formal and inhuman he seemed to them -- and how hypocritical his behavior seemed given that he sat on his ass all day and bought expensive toys with company money; i.e. acted in private "unprofessionally" while expecting others to abide by his "corporate bullshit."

[saskiaza21]

LMAO , conflict about LIE and SEI irl.
I have 2 friend ( one of them is my close friend ). LIE and SEI males. They're really fuckin awkward tbh and seems conflicting.
It happens irl. It's better , they do relation on distance and just a friend

[robobot14]

As a SEI, I actually like LiEs. They simultaneously have a calming and dominating presence, but they make for really deep and pleasant discussions. ILIs, on the other hand, leave a bad taste in my mouth. I don't know why the switch to introvert makes such a big difference(Fe polr?), but they're just so literal minded and I feel lost and awkward when talking to them. It's like I'll make a casual comment, and then they'll attack it like a piece of meat. Like I said, I appreciate good discussion, and they bring some good insights to the table, but they're just so analytical that it's like, "Did I do something wrong?". I don't really get into conflicts with either of them, but it's just..woah.

[Adam Strange]

@robobot14, your avatar picture is perfect. It is quintessentially how I see SEI's.

I work with a female SEI, and she's one of the nicest, most valuable people I know. I will say that, other than saying Hi to her every day, I try to minimize our physical time together because I think that Conflict relationships can be likened to radioactivity exposure. Time X Proximity = Death. But if you don't get too close, SEI's can be like a walk in the park on a sunny day (which will get you 2 millirem, just enough to keep you warm and bring a smile to your face and make you glad you made the trip.)

[Sol]

there was a well-known example
John Kennedy (ENTJ) and his wife (ISFP)

As a SEI, I actually like LiEs.

"SEI, Hufflepuff, INFP, Aries"

SEI is ISFP. same may to be with the ones who you suppose as LIEs
also to like conflictors on a distance is not rare. I perceive women-coflictors as rather cute people, just do not try to be close to them to notice their demons

[pississippi]

My ex was SEI. We both saw each other as interesting in theory, and once we started interacting on a deeper level we realized that we didn't have anything in common. Most of my conversations with him were punctuated by awkward silences and I constantly felt restricted somehow, like he wouldn't respond well to anything I said. He seemed to be the same way. The main conflicts we had were his "complex of closed mouth" according to strat and Te.
I knew it wouldn't be a serious thing from our earliest conversations, but it was near the end of high school and I wanted to get experience before I graduated. Also, I wouldn't see him again afterwards, once I went to college. We agreed that it was just for fun, by the way...

We ended up breaking up earlier than I expected because we kept disagreeing on things.
He seemed to weirdly pride himself on being an "open book" and having "no secrets." He was always skeptical when I wanted to keep something private and eventually he told people about a personal detail I didn't want anyone knowing. He often told people things casually, without thinking of the consequences of his actions.

He seemed kind of ambitionless and directionless, which is just a personal turnoff. He was a decent student but he had a reputation for being unreliable with projects and seemed kind of lazy. He told me once that he "was worried that he'd seem like he was trying too hard, so he'd try to seem lazier, but then he'd end up actually being lazy," which sounds like Te-PoLR to me.

I remember always trying to help him with Te matters; once, when he lost some parts for his hobby, I told him about a service they offer where he could order new parts for free. But he always gave a dull reaction. We broke up when he showed me a website he coded for a political candidate and I noticed he'd misspelled their name. I usually don't correct ppl's grammar but this was obviously important, so I told him. And then later on, he complained about me to everyone, I guess saying that I was a know-it-all bitch or something.

[nanashi]

oh no. My manager might be SEI.

[consentingadult]

He seemed kind of ambitionless and directionless, which is just a personal turnoff.

SEIs are the ultimate here-and-now and in-the-moment kind of personalities. Respect them for this quality, while at the same time sticking to respecting that you yourself are different, and keep a safe distance.

[SGF]

dunno, I always seem to have some kind of problem with ppl who type LIE on this forum, with specific exceptions like Uncle Ave.
Its usually me who starts the conflict, finds the fault in the LIE's argument and thinks low of him/her.. or I just think they are dumb, clueless or something along the lines. (not trying to offend)

nanashi
Adam Strange
Alonzo
Duschia

.. to name a few. I wonder why this is.

[Adam Strange]

dunno, I always seem to have some kind of problem with ppl who type LIE on this forum, with specific exceptions like Uncle Ave.
Its usually me who starts the conflict, finds the fault in the LIE's argument and thinks low of him/her.. or I just think they are dumb, clueless or something along the lines. (not trying to offend)

nanashi
Adam Strange
Alonzo
Duschia

.. to name a few. I wonder why this is.

It's because you are Alpha. Probably SEI.

Embrace the Si.

[SGF]

It's because you are Alpha. Probably SEI.

Embrace the Si.

maybe, even at work, the sales director imo is a LIE. Similar situation. Its not like I think I need to walk on eggshells around him tho.
What would a SEI criticize ILE for just as an example?

from encounters all over the forums, its usually me who is the aggressor tho, which is uncharacteristic of SEI considering Se ignoring.

Example:

Alonzo:

What is so frustrating and devastating to me is that your own empathy blindness prohibits you from seeing the parallel between your experience and how an entire continent and its people were robbed of their potential and plundered for centuries by European, white supremacist oppression, forcing Africans into artificial, long lasting, generational poverty because their lands and resources were exploited and completely depleted to the benefit of the Europeans.

You have the unmitigated gall to call Africans “dangerous” when Europeans would not be where they are today if not for wanton destroying, conquering, looting, pillaging, extorting, raping, slaughtering, enslaving and subjugating there way to preeminence. Africa is the most genetically diverse continent on earth, which means that both the lowest and highest IQs exist there–but studies have shown that environment is the most significant contributor to IQ, and that generations of undernourishment and poverty negatively impacted it. The majority of Africans haven’t been privy to the type of structured interventions that helped “save” your life, and oddly enough they are still capable of being engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs, politicians and scholars--funny that if they are somehow innately inferior.

And you want to pat yourself on the back simply because Europeans got lucky? Lol Sheer luck and opportunity comprise the bulk of white people's success. In every group, there will always be a few innovators who think outside the box and do things that catapults the whole group forward. As people began leaving Africa, they kept encountering environments and circumstances, over thousands of years, that forced them to adapt and innovate. Cue "Guns, Germs and Steel" and voila--world conquerors.

My beef with it:

This is absolute feeler garbage with 0 knowledge of actual world history, no understanding of geopolitics, global trade or power dynamics.
Just western propaganda you sucked up due to your upbringing. I swear, western European countries and commonwealth nations are full of well meaning, but ultimately misinformed softies who haven't felt true oppression in centuries. Arrogant moral puritans.

Meanwhile ppl like me who's ancestors had 0 to do with the slave trade, who's ancestors have been occupied and enslaved for 158 years by Muslim Ottomans (the USA is less than 250 years old), taken as slaves to be used & abused, we who had to suffer through Russian, Mongol, German, Ottoman invasions, fucking communism and all that shit.. I have to just sit idly by and allow ourselves to be lectured by privileged western retards about the nature of our race, the folly of our civilizations and the color of our skin! Well fuck you man! Fuck off.. the EU needs to go fuck off as well.

Tired of this shit all over the place.. "you are cis a white male!', "white supremacy!", "you are at fault for everything!", "how DARE you hold nonwhites to the same standard and apply the law!?" Fuck you people!

And fuck all of you who liked this retard's post. You know who you are.

[Adam Strange]

maybe, even at work, the sales director imo is a LIE. Similar situation. Its not like I think I need to walk on eggshells around him tho.
What would a SEI criticize ILE for just as an example?

I only know of one female SEI-Fe and a male ILE-Ti, and she totally has his back while still being in charge. The only time she's said anything to me about him that was slightly disparaging was when she implied that he would do better if he acted more mature. But I'm not sure that that really bothers her.

I'm really not the best person to comment on this question.

[Sol]

What would a SEI criticize ILE for just as an example?

Where one type is stronger than other type. For example, SEI may recommend a better recipe or clothes choice (Si) or what thinks as more decent behavior in a situation (Fe).
The familiar ESI criticised how rude I treated some people (Fi).

[marooned]

I personally have the feeling the conflicts between these two are about Te. The LIE is the more aggressive/pushy of the two and it speaks in the language of the SEI's PoLR, prioritizing everything according to it. I am reminded of a conflict in my family between an IEI and LSE - it centered on Te. She didn't like his Te basically. She felt he had hidden motives. She didn't like how everything was on this schedule and how it's like he was never present but just going from point to point like a relentless task master (he's laid back at each point, but still the schedule is how he organizes social gatherings). Arguments came up over all this petty stuff I don't understand and can't explain, but it was his very orientation that offended her lol. I tend to think he was the more innocent one and it's because I know that Te egos are straight-forward. They generally have weak hidden motives when they have them. They try to operate in good faith (unless of course they are not "good" people - but I don't truly believe in the good/bad dichotomy as it's too simple). Being LSE, he withdrew from the conflict rather than try to work it out, which probably made her even more upset. She also had her SEE partner she roped in and he reflected her POV. The end result was she moved far away, feeling an outcast in the family (E4 FTW!). They are both reasonable and kind people, but this conflict was due to personalities that couldn't fathom one another.

Anyway I also feel uncomfortable around him but in part it's because the social distance barrier bubble has never been burst between us. So I just try to get through the schedules basically and endure. There's a lot of EJ-ness in the family and I sort of try to get through it during get-togethers. It's also that I'm not prone to build relationships and prefer to be alone almost all the time so any social anything is something I have to get through. I feel bad about being so selfish, but it is the way it is. Also I always feel hyper rational people will judge me for not being able to do things. I don't know how to do things, I don't know how they do it, I don't understand how anyone has any self-discipline at all, so I try to hide that I don't have these things and I know the closer we get the more they'll see me as this lazy useless person. For Fi valuing people it will become a matter of character, and perhaps it is that my character is weak, perhaps it's that I have no willpower, I don't know what it is. But I know I can't meet the rational temperament. I can never be enough to please it. And for EJs I can never be as energetic as they are. I get worn down like my psyche is about to faint. Also I have really low conscientiousness but I experience it as no drive, no energy, no ability to act, always trapped in stagnation. First it was water, now it is tar. I kind of simultaneously can't stand myself for it but also understand it's a real problem that hurts. If it didn't hurt, then I could give in to the ideas that it's some unwillingness. But it hurts in the way of being trapped needing a constant escape velocity I can't produce.

[SGF]

Anyway I also feel uncomfortable around him but in part it's because the social distance barrier bubble has never been burst between us. So I just try to get through the schedules basically and endure. There's a lot of EJ-ness in the family and I sort of try to get through it during get-togethers. It's also that I'm not prone to build relationships and prefer to be alone almost all the time so any social anything is something I have to get through. I feel bad about being so selfish, but it is the way it is. Also I always feel hyper rational people will judge me for not being able to do things. I don't know how to do things, I don't know how they do it, I don't understand how anyone has any self-discipline at all, so I try to hide that I don't have these things and I know the closer we get the more they'll see me as this lazy useless person. For Fi valuing people it will become a matter of character, and perhaps it is that my character is weak, perhaps it's that I have no willpower, I don't know what it is. But I know I can't meet the rational temperament. I can never be enough to please it. And for EJs I can never be as energetic as they are. I get worn down like my psyche is about to faint. Also I have really low conscientiousness but I experience it as no drive, no energy, no ability to act, always trapped in stagnation. First it was water, now it is tar. I kind of simultaneously can't stand myself for it but also understand it's a real problem that hurts. If it didn't hurt, then I could give in to the ideas that it's some unwillingness. But it hurts in the way of being trapped needing a constant escape velocity I can't produce.

Hmm, imo you are doing much better in the thinking department than a lot of LIEs, at the very least you try to consider all points of view and think things through. I have rather high standards for myself and others (being melancholic), so consider this a compliment.

With LIEs my problem usually is that their arguments / projects seem like they haven't been properly thought through, as if they run on bad information or lack information and fail at being pragmatic / realistic about how things are & what is actually possible.. ie I find fault with their thinking / decision-making process. In comparison my only problem with an SLEs thinking process is that they seem rash / impulsive, but we are usually on the same page despite that & I can respect them. Not the case with LIE.. idk why. My default is to excessively think things through, I'm very careful & deliberate making sure I don't miss anything. Maybe its that and LIE's thinking seems sloppy and superficial by comparison.

Its weird tho. Every person I antagonize ends up being someone who types LIE lmao.