Man grows used to everything, the scoundrel!
-Raskolnikov
Nunki IEI
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
@Nunki He already has it on vinyl.
(My name is Yon Yonson,
I live in Wisconsin.
I work in a lumber yard there.
The people I meet as
I walk down the street,
They say "Hello!"
I say "Hello!"
They say "What's your name?"
I say: (My name is Yon Yonson...
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https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1598170
This isn't Ni Te. ILI use Te data and invent ways around extraverted thinking. Shifting and shuffling with Ni in existing frames.
This whole shebang is Ti and Ne or Ne Ti.
Ti concoctions.
Se
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
This reminds me. I was wondering about that actually. I can totally see why somebody might suggest that. And I can come off IEI, especially around SLEs. But I don't really value Fi, as EIIs do. Or at least the descriptions for Fi lead in EII don't fit me at all, but Ti does.
There's a weird intermingling of Jungian T vs F, Big 5 agreeableness, and Reinin's Constructive/Emotive dichotomy. Like ILI vs LII, ILI are constructive and LII emotivist, so ILI have more of the disagreeableness of T, but LII have more agreeable T. It's something... They all kind of relate to each other in different ways, but not always directly or at least I'm not sure what each one is supposedly getting at anymore. I guess I should make a thread about it...
edit: or maybe I am IEI. I guess it's possible. IEI or LII. But I have Alpha values, so there's that. I think if people are honest about Socionics and self-awareness, it's more complicated than just a static type. I said it in another thread, but I really do think there's something to the benefit rings. I think each type morphs between the types next to them, as well as their own type and it adds interesting complexity to the relations.
Consider that information flow between types it will be tempting to imagine that the flow has an incidence on the development of a type and its "shape". It would be similar to the erosion phenomenon. The question is how long would it take for a type to morph and under which conditions.
However, a systematic "morphing" law between types would be hard to substantiate in socionics. Furthermore, if this morphing concept prove to be theoretically true, then it would enter in collision with an immuable principle, namely that TIM's structure don't change (at least not in socionics). That said, TIMs are not people and no model in the world can factor the complexity of the human psyche and the variables that can influence its development in any systematic way.
Ah well, it's not really that complicated. If somebody is say Ne Fi, dualistically they also use Si and Te. Since we are not robots, you can easily use say your HA Te and back it up Si or Ni. But if you are an intuitive type, then Ni will be more likely/familiar (which is benefit pair). I don't know, I get what you're doing here, but it's not that complicated. I'm not trying to make a big leap here, just looking at the type a little more dynamically.
Can you explain first the Idea of morphing what do you mean by that exactly so that I can try to follow your reasoning ? I don't understand the bold part.
Same here, I don't understand.But if you are an intuitive type, then Ni will be more likely/familiar (which is benefit pair). I don't know,
What do you think that I'm doing here ? I would like to look at the type a little more dynamically too .I get what you're doing here, but it's not that complicated. I'm not trying to make a big leap here, just looking at the type a little more dynamically.
Sorry, I um...I like to think about things from a subjective or inductive way -> Ti.What do you think that I'm doing here ? I would like to look at the type a little more dynamically too .
What I mean is, I remembered you having a post about how people use the word "we" and I noticed how you seem to focus on methodologies and wanting to separate typology systems.
So Rusted Typology had an interesting video on INTj vs INTp, where he said INTj like to connect everything with some logic. And that's what I think I do.
Sidenote: It's also interesting how Rust types SEE, when previously he was self-typed SLE, yet that video was very holographic SLE Ti organizational logic. Anyway, it reminded me of the Donald Trump type debate thread and the difference between SLE and SEE. I think Gulenko has had a bad influence on Socionics by making money on typing and setting up a school that he now has to live up to in reputation -> which seems like a Beta Quadra value thing to do as well...But that's another topic...and I don't know if anybody wants to talk about Gulenko anymore. (and I'm not even sure "I" want to talk about him anymore. His followers get on my nerves a little...)
But I remembered the frustration of trying to talk about this stuff with people over the years, especially people that are very critical and over-skeptical (imo) and don't seem to give the concepts a fair chance, usually by people that don't seem to "value" Ti. They usually eventually declare everything bullshit and socionics not empirical and leave. So I get the impression you don't value Ti is what I mean and I don't know if that even applies to you, so my bad if it came off negative.
So I'm not sure how to approach giving an answer. Like for one, do you think Jungian Psychotypes underpin Socionics types? If not, then what I say probably won't be of value to you. I'm also lazy and fear too much effort and too much criticism, especially if I don't know if the other person wants to hear a long complicated reasoning, and this has been something that's taken me awhile to understand and I'm sure I'm wrong about some stuff, but I can try once in a while I guess.
But it's like this to me. Take Jung's 8 archetypes for cognitively experiencing the world -> Ni/Se, Ne/Si, Ti/Fe, Te/Fi. One has to question, does this abstractly represent human cognition or does it miss something? If it's missing something, it's not worth using (probably). I think it's not missing something, in that I believe the abstractions are "capable" of labeling all the ways that our mind's can process the world, but in an inductive sense, being that our mind's work towards stability. So we will have genes and environmental influences that cause our mind to develop certain ways of being, and it will be more like a probability distribution or bell curve (from a more strictly Te sense) where your type is what's more apparent than anything else.
For example, Socionics does make some inferred correlations, such as Ni being "victim" or Ne as "childlike". Those are debatable to the extent that they happen from a Te perspective and we'd need to deduce from Te. But I think it's more like they are a subset of their respective functional pairs, but also set exclusionary from each other, meaning you won't necessarily see them, but that when you do, the childlike (Ne/Si) descriptions won't belong to (Ni/Se) and the victim (Ni/Se) descriptions wouldn't really belong to the (Ne/Si) descriptions either. There would be specific domains of knowledge each one would encompass.
So...back to answering your question. If our mind forms around a cognitive function, let's say Ne in this case, where Si is the dualistic opposite, meaning they exist like ying and yang or love and hate. When you (and I mean 'you' in the hypothetical sense) use Ne, Si is also a part of your Ne. So we can talk about what this implies or means.
First thing is briefly that you would be "extroverted", meaning that your mind is more geared towards interacting with what's around you. The second is that the focus is on intuition, so you'd see the connection between things, but not from a purely detached attitude (like Ni), but from an interactive one that enacts intuition on the environment. Ne would be looking to change reality by suppressing the subjective understanding of the "hear and now" (Si). So say, I don't know, you run a church and see that people don't perceive your religion in the way that you wanted or the way it's supposed to be, so you'd figure out how they view it (Si) and then try to come up with an idea to change that subjective perception to the one you want. I see this a lot with Apple products. I personally hate Apple (let's not get into that), but they do a good job with brand image and marketing a feeling or vibe about their products to their customers, some form of Ne/Si imo.
So now we can talk about the neurotic factor. Since subjectivity underlies Ne by way of Si, we can talk about neurotic behaviors of Ne. In order for Ne to do what it seeks, it has to perceive and repress Si. If something negative is perceived about Si, that negativity will be projected on the world. So Ne could subconsciously perceive an environment as say hostile, then project that perception on the world around and try to change it to something they think is better (Ne), without realizing that other people might not perceive it the same way they do and reject their attempts to change anything. Something like that anyway. So someone developing Ne is going to have a neurotic factor with Si. And it will take experience, self-reflection, self-awareness to overcome it.
So there's kind of two neurotic problems here. If somebody is just Ne, their mind would only "perceive" reality, but not feel compelled any way toward it. So this Ne person needs rationality to balance their irrational perception and extroverted attitude. I kind of think of this maybe as a form of evolution because without this balance, the mind is very neurotic and not adaptable and would not benefit survival. Some people might be more or less like this and I suppose they can still thrive anyway (Donald Trump comes to mind...). But rationality seems to deal with the organization and motivation with reality and by adding it, it allows this extroverted consciousness an introverted attitude that can deal with too much Ne or Si neurotic problems, as well as supplying motivation and a desire to organize reality with Ti or Te.
Sidenote: People often misappropriate feeling as emotions, but it's really more about motivation imo (internalized feeling vs externalized feeling), and thinking as dispassionate logic, but it's really more about how we are motivated to organize reality imo (internalized thinking vs externalized thinking). For example, Alive seems to be frustrated with the way people are reasoning things and seems to be typing everyone IEI as a backhanded way of venting his frustration. But emotion can be anything; all the functions can be an emotion imo. Maybe this would be a good discussion on what exactly is Te and Ti because I guess I'm skeptical now that saying Te is "facts" or Ti "logic" necessarily makes any sense when that's isolating it from Fi/Fe and then doesn't make much Socionics sense to me, now that I'm writing this out. In a philosophical sense maybe though, but it would theoretically be different from typing. It's also similar to saying Fi is "relational" ethics and Fe is "emotional" ethics, but lots of F types can be quite evil and not very ethical imo. But similarly, in a philosophical sense, I guess it could be argued anyhow.
But anyway, back to the question, since this Ne person is characterized by having a dominating extroverted attitude, they will also balance it with rationality, but of an introverted attitude. So that means either Fi or Ti. So let's say this person is inclined to Fi. Now this is where I kind of might disagree with model A in that I think HA Te (in this case of NeFi IEE) isn't necessarily unconscious. What I mean is this person is primarily Ne+Te and Fi+Si second. This would relate to IEE-Ne and they would switch between Ne and Te; but when using Te, as intuition is the main focus of this consciousness, Te will have intuitive flavor -> i.e. appear Te+intuition or LIE. I see this a lot in typing threads where IEE can be mistaken for LIE for example. But as this hypothetical consciousness growths, there is a path for growth: through the demonstrative Fe and suggestive Si. I think the demonstrative is basically developed as a way to reinforce or help the creative function. It just makes sense if people end up with a preference for either ST, NT, NF, or NT preference. So as the introverted Fi attitude is developed, the demonstrative probably kind of develops with it. This would be IEE-Fi type. And over time the harmful effects of the extroverted attitude can be dealt with as well, namely the person should theoretically use Si more and come to terms with its neurotic elements in their ego. So this IEE would start appearing more ESE (Fe+Si). For IEE, this relates to the benefit ring LIE(neurotic IEE-Ne subtype, Sam Bankman Fried comes to mind)<-IEE(more stable IEE-Fi subtype)->ESE (self-actualization?).
I don't know if that makes sense. But that's basically it. The benefit ring weirdly seems to explain types in developmental stages.
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
Okay !
Yes ! I don't don't find Reinin dichotomies useful in the typing process so I don't use them. That said, there is a Reinin D that I like more than others namely Aristocratic / Democratic.What I mean is, I remembered you having a post about how people use the word "we" and I noticed how you seem to focus on methodologies and wanting to separate typology systems.
Now, it is true that most human beings are biased towards either one of these two ways of perceiving other individuals :
- A) Individuals who perceive other individuals as representative of all the attributes (values, beliefs etc..) of the group they belong to.
- B) Individuals who perceive other individuals as representative of their own individuality regardless of the group an individual might belong to.
I used to think that A was exclusive to Aristocratic Quadras and B exclusive to Democratic Quadras. However, I changed my mind and decided to not correlate A and B with Aristocratic/Democratic anymore.
Indeed, A and B probably exist in any Quadra and are thus NTR. I've seen Alpha and Gamma Types expressing A. I've seen Deltas expressing B. (I've never seen Beta Types expressing B though ).
One could say that all these particular Alpha, Gamma and Delta Types might have been mistyped, sure but it doesn't matter at this point since I don't use Reinin anyways.
As for the tendency in some people to use the pronoun "we" used by a single person to emphasize his or her appartenance/identification to a group, I thought it was indicative of A and therefore an Aristocratic propensity.
Yes, I don't like to mixe typology for typing purposes. Each typology should be apprehended as a stand alone system and certainly not as a tool for justifying a typing of another system. I'm aligned with SSS and use their methodology for the most part. But my typing skills are not very sharp !
Okay.So Rusted Typology had an interesting video on INTj vs INTp, where he said INTj like to connect everything with some logic. And that's what I think I do.
You didn't came off as negative, it's okay !Sidenote: It's also interesting how Rust types SEE, when previously he was self-typed SLE, yet that video was very holographic SLE Ti organizational logic. Anyway, it reminded me of the Donald Trump type debate thread and the difference between SLE and SEE. I think Gulenko has had a bad influence on Socionics by making money on typing and setting up a school that he now has to live up to in reputation -> which seems like a Beta Quadra value thing to do as well...But that's another topic...and I don't know if anybody wants to talk about Gulenko anymore. (and I'm not even sure "I" want to talk about him anymore. His followers get on my nerves a little...)
But I remembered the frustration of trying to talk about this stuff with people over the years, especially people that are very critical and over-skeptical (imo) and don't seem to give the concepts a fair chance, usually by people that don't seem to "value" Ti. They usually eventually declare everything bullshit and socionics not empirical and leave. So I get the impression you don't value Ti is what I mean and I don't know if that even applies to you, so my bad if it came off negative.
Well, that obviously doesn't apply to me, but it doesn't mean that I value Ti does it ?
I like that term "underpin" ! Well the short answer is yes and no. Socionics is some kind of chimera which is only partly inspired by Jung's Typology (mainly the Four Jungian Dichotomies and the functions (albeit reconceptualized)). The rest of Aushra ideas was to put together a system in which she brought Kepinki's information metabolism, cybernetics, some of Freud's nomenclature .So I'm not sure how to approach giving an answer. Like for one, do you think Jungian Psychotypes underpin Socionics types? If not, then what I say probably won't be of value to you.
Now, Jungian Psychology most certainly underpins Jungian Psychotypes, indeed the latter was designed to fit perfectly within the former. As for the chimera aforementioned, it hardly fit within the Jungian Paradigm. That said, in Jung's work, some have found some elements of correlations between Jung's Typology with Model A. Some people did just that, but that's just squaring the circle at this point.
Oh, I'm ready for the long reasoning and I'm sure that I don't have neither the energy nor the mental capacity for too much criticism !I'm also lazy and fear too much effort and too much criticism, especially if I don't know if the other person wants to hear a long complicated reasoning, and this has been something that's taken me awhile to understand and I'm sure I'm wrong about some stuff, but I can try once in a while I guess.
It's hard for me to make sense out of what you are trying to say here, but fair enough let's continue...But it's like this to me. Take Jung's 8 archetypes for cognitively experiencing the world -> Ni/Se, Ne/Si, Ti/Fe, Te/Fi. One has to question, does this abstractly represent human cognition or does it miss something? If it's missing something, it's not worth using (probably). I think it's not missing something, in that I believe the abstractions are "capable" of labeling all the ways that our mind's can process the world, but in an inductive sense, being that our mind's work towards stability. So we will have genes and environmental influences that cause our mind to develop certain ways of being, and it will be more like a probability distribution or bell curve (from a more strictly Te sense) where your type is what's more apparent than anything else.
...For example, Socionics does make some inferred correlations, such as Ni being "victim" or Ne as "childlike". Those are debatable to the extent that they happen from a Te perspective and we'd need to deduce from Te. But I think it's more like they are a subset of their respective functional pairs, but also set exclusionary from each other, meaning you won't necessarily see them, but that when you do, the childlike (Ne/Si) descriptions won't belong to (Ni/Se) and the victim (Ni/Se) descriptions wouldn't really belong to the (Ne/Si) descriptions either. There would be specific domains of knowledge each one would encompass.
I'm sorry but I have to reject the premise in red. "Using" a function doesn't imply the simultaneous usage of any part of its paired function. I mean, I don't think paired functions are tied like some kind quantum entanglement . But fair enough, let's continue...So...back to answering your question. If our mind forms around a cognitive function, let's say Ne in this case, where Si is the dualistic opposite, meaning they exist like ying and yang or love and hate. When you (and I mean 'you' in the hypothetical sense) use Ne, Si is also a part of your Ne. So we can talk about what this implies or means.
... Okay !First thing is briefly that you would be "extroverted", meaning that your mind is more geared towards interacting with what's around you. The second is that the focus is on intuition, so you'd see the connection between things, but not from a purely detached attitude (like Ni), but from an interactive one that enacts intuition on the environment. Ne would be looking to change reality by suppressing the subjective understanding of the "hear and now" (Si). So say, I don't know, you run a church and see that people don't perceive your religion in the way that you wanted or the way it's supposed to be, so you'd figure out how they view it (Si) and then try to come up with an idea to change that subjective perception to the one you want.
I fail to see the direct connection you are establishing between "neurotic behaviors" and Ne (the Dominant function (?)).I see this a lot with Apple products. I personally hate Apple (let's not get into that), but they do a good job with brand image and marketing a feeling or vibe about their products to their customers, some form of Ne/Si imo.
So now we can talk about the neurotic factor. Since subjectivity underlies Ne by way of Si, we can talk about neurotic behaviors of Ne. In order for Ne to do what it seeks, it has to perceive and repress Si. If something negative is perceived about Si, that negativity will be projected on the world. So Ne could subconsciously perceive an environment as say hostile, then project that perception on the world around and try to change it to something they think is better (Ne), without realizing that other people might not perceive it the same way they do and reject their attempts to change anything. Something like that anyway. So someone developing Ne is going to have a neurotic factor with Si. And it will take experience, self-reflection, self-awareness to overcome it.
Okay..So there's kind of two neurotic problems here. If somebody is just Ne, their mind would only "perceive" reality, but not feel compelled any way toward it. So this Ne person needs rationality to balance their irrational perception and extroverted attitude. I kind of think of this maybe as a form of evolution because without this balance, the mind is very neurotic and not adaptable and would not benefit survival. Some people might be more or less like this and I suppose they can still thrive anyway (Donald Trump comes to mind...). But rationality seems to deal with the organization and motivation with reality and by adding it, it allows this extroverted consciousness an introverted attitude that can deal with too much Ne or Si neurotic problems, as well as supplying motivation and a desire to organize reality with Ti or Te.
I guess even F types have their neurotic behaviors . Indeed, F types don't necessarily have a monopoly on Ethics and Morals.Sidenote: People often misappropriate feeling as emotions, but it's really more about motivation imo (internalized feeling vs externalized feeling), and thinking as dispassionate logic, but it's really more about how we are motivated to organize reality imo (internalized thinking vs externalized thinking). For example, Alive seems to be frustrated with the way people are reasoning things and seems to be typing everyone IEI as a backhanded way of venting his frustration. But emotion can be anything; all the functions can be an emotion imo. Maybe this would be a good discussion on what exactly is Te and Ti because I guess I'm skeptical now that saying Te is "facts" or Ti "logic" necessarily makes any sense when that's isolating it from Fi/Fe and then doesn't make much Socionics sense to me, now that I'm writing this out. In a philosophical sense maybe though, but it would theoretically be different from typing. It's also similar to saying Fi is "relational" ethics and Fe is "emotional" ethics, but lots of F types can be quite evil and not very ethical imo. But similarly, in a philosophical sense, I guess it could be argued anyhow.
The expression "hidden agenda" is misleading. I prefer to call that function like it was initially called i.e. the activating function. It's not a question of flavor or anything like that, it's just an "unconscious" mechanism induced by the psyche that manifests as an instruction which activates the Ego functions esp the creative function in the social sphere when it is needed for instance to solve a new problem. No more no less.But anyway, back to the question, since this Ne person is characterized by having a dominating extroverted attitude, they will also balance it with rationality, but of an introverted attitude. So that means either Fi or Ti. So let's say this person is inclined to Fi. Now this is where I kind of might disagree with model A in that I think HA Te (in this case of NeFi IEE) isn't necessarily unconscious. What I mean is this person is primarily Ne+Te and Fi+Si second. This would relate to IEE-Ne and they would switch between Ne and Te; but when using Te, as intuition is the main focus of this consciousness, Te will have intuitive flavor -> i.e. appear Te+intuition or LIE.
I don't see the point of using subtypes when dealing with the benefit ring or the supervising ring for that matter. As far as I know, subtypes are not factored in the socion dynamics as a whole.I see this a lot in typing threads where IEE can be mistaken for LIE for example. But as this hypothetical consciousness growths, there is a path for growth: through the demonstrative Fe and suggestive Si. I think the demonstrative is basically developed as a way to reinforce or help the creative function. It just makes sense if people end up with a preference for either ST, NT, NF, or NT preference. So as the introverted Fi attitude is developed, the demonstrative probably kind of develops with it. This would be IEE-Fi type. And over time the harmful effects of the extroverted attitude can be dealt with as well, namely the person should theoretically use Si more and come to terms with its neurotic elements in their ego. So this IEE would start appearing more ESE (Fe+Si). For IEE, this relates to the benefit ring LIE(neurotic IEE-Ne subtype, Sam Bankman Fried comes to mind)<-IEE(more stable IEE-Fi subtype)->ESE (self-actualization?).
I don't know if that makes sense. But that's basically it. The benefit ring weirdly seems to explain types in developmental stages.
Anyway, thank you very much for your time and explanations.
Edit : Erratum : I said "Delta types" instead "Alpha types" . That's corrected now.
Last edited by godslave; 05-12-2024 at 07:08 PM. Reason: add some clarity and order to the mess !
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Jesus, I have to scroll multiple times to read a single post. You guys should author books, or research papers or something.
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Is it just me, or are quite a lot of recently active users getting banned? I'm not reading every thread on this site, but was surprised at answering Headstrong and seeing that he was banned already and it happened to a couple of other users as well
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It's interesting I guess, since the Reinin traits are further mathematical dimensions on the types. But Reinin doesn't justify them with a philosophical backing and I watched a video with Expat and Jack Oliver talking about it and they seemed to have the same criticisms that I've found. Some dichotomies are too situational, rather than type intrinsic. And since I also see type as more dynamic than just the two ego functions, I don't think these would necessarily apply anyway. But some traits do seem to be empirically true for me among various types, like constructive/emotive, or reasonable/decisive. I find it fun to toy with the dichotomies calculator sometimes by picking different categories of a person and see what it comes up with.
Yeah, that's a good question. If I had to guess I'd say Ti, whether Beta or Alpha, is still going to "value" categories, especially with Socionics. But Beta ST is thought to be pragmatic logic, kind of seeing things more simply, where a type might be thought to fulfill a certain organizational role or encompass a person more simply. But with Alpha or Gamma, you have more complicated NT logic, so they see more possibilities for the person and what more specifically to do with that individual. I'm guessing it then just means something like "expansive thinking" versus "limited thinking" or something like that.As for the tendency in some people to use the pronoun "we" used by a single person to emphasize his or her appartenance/identification to a group, I thought it was indicative of A and therefore an Aristocratic propensity.
Yeah, I think I get it. There's a Rusted Typology video on panjungianism. He calls it a disease lol - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQtnpqxyv1cYes, I don't like to mixe typology for typing purposes. Each typology should be apprehended as a stand alone system and certainly not as a tool for justifying a typing of another system. I'm aligned with SSS and use their methodology for the most part. But my typing skills are not very sharp !
But there's an inherent problem in having many typologies all based off the same Jungian nomenclature as well. It's like having 800 different religions that all claim they are true and every other religion is false. But somehow we're supposed to pick one or see them as all valid? It's just not logically consistent when we can just interpret something differently and say it's valid because "those dirty annoying panjungians lol". Cause then we don't have a point of reference for removing ambiguity. To remove ambiguity, you could take aspects of different interpretations and create something logically consistent, but then people still get mad and say somebody is "combining" things. It almost feels like in politics if I say criticize say Donald Trump, people freak out and call me a Liberal, when I also criticize Biden and am actually Independent. It's hard to have honest discussions.
So my question - If there is no way to remove ambiguity, isn't that a huge epistemological problem?
...I don't know. It does seem to match up well with Ti-polrs and sometimes people that "say" they are ILI. But I mean I don't know, that'd be weird for me to say something definitively like that to you. Just is a pattern I guess.Well, that obviously doesn't apply to me, but it doesn't mean that I value Ti does it ?
That's interesting. I think I'm at odds with Socionics then. My focus seems to have always been on the Jungian stuff as processes in people and correlating that through Socionics math and using the descriptions and ideas as things to look for and observe. So I guess I'm more of a purist Jungian?I like that term "underpin" ! Well the short answer is yes and no. Socionics is some kind of chimera which is only partly inspired by Jung's Typology (mainly the Four Jungian Dichotomies and the functions (albeit reconceptualized)). The rest of Aushra ideas was to put together a system in which she brought Kepinki's information metabolism, cybernetics, some of Freud's nomenclature .
Now, Jungian Psychology most certainly underpins Jungian Psychotypes, indeed the latter was designed to fit perfectly within the former. As for the chimera aforementioned, it hardly fit within the Jungian Paradigm. That said, in Jung's work, some have found some elements of correlations between Jung's Typology with Model A. Some people did just that, but that's just squaring the circle at this point.
Well, to answer these more directly, put another way, I think the 8 functions can be correlated to philosophy of mind as Aristotlean Forms. intuition/sensing, feeling/thinking, extroversion/introversion seem capable of each representing all the different ways that consciousness can interpret and interact with reality. Going over it would be pretty in-depth and I don't know if I'm the best person to do that, but I guess I could ask instead, can you think of anything that couldn't be put into one of the 8 functions?It's hard for me to make sense out of what you are trying to say here, but fair enough let's continue...
...
I'm sorry but I have to reject the premise in red. "Using" a function doesn't imply the simultaneous usage of any part of its paired function. I mean, I don't think paired functions are tied like some kind quantum entanglement . But fair enough, let's continue...
... Okay !
I fail to see the direct connection you are establishing between "neurotic behaviors" and Ne (the Dominant function (?)).
Okay..
I guess even F types have their neurotic behaviors . Indeed, F types don't necessarily have a monopoly on Ethics and Morals.
The expression "hidden agenda" is misleading. I prefer to call that function like it was initially called i.e. the activating function. It's not a question of flavor or anything like that, it's just an "unconscious" mechanism induced by the psyche that manifests as an instruction which activates the Ego functions esp the creative function in the social sphere when it is needed for instance to solve a new problem. No more no less.
I don't see the point of using subtypes when dealing with the benefit ring or the supervising ring for that matter. As far as I know, subtypes are not factored in the socion dynamics as a whole.
Anyway, thank you very much for your time and explanations.
But the dual aspect is what describes the "unconscious". It's supposed to influence your ego function. And understanding that influence is part of Analytical psychology.
So I guess I don't understand when you sayI'm sorry but I have to reject the premise in red. "Using" a function doesn't imply the simultaneous usage of any part of its paired function. I mean, I don't think paired functions are tied like some kind quantum entanglement . But fair enough, let's continue...Do you mean you reject the Jungian unconscious? I don't understand.
But neuroticism has a lot to do with this "unconscious" part of the ego functions. I was just trying to say that there seems to be two types of Jungian neuroticism, where somebody can apply negative aspects to the unconscious functions that they essentially believe and project, or just have a big ego, which implies imbalanced rationality/irrationality and introversion/extroversion. But the example might have been bad. I'm not an expert on Psychological types. Jung has a way of writing that I don't understand immediately. But it would be weird for somebody to deny that neuroticism isn't a part of the 8 functions (and not saying that's what you're saying, but just pre-emptively stating).
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
I've watched that expat video you mentioned a while ago. The problem with Reinin is that 1) they are "dichotomies" meaning "either/or" and the subject must align with all the dichotomies relative to his or her TIM but irl, most of the time things are more "grey" than black or white 2) some of these dichotomies describe complex traits and "state of minds" that are beyond the scope of the Model because they overlap with some cultural factors. Therefore we can't use them in the typing process.
Maybe. Like I said, it doesn't mean much to me anymore. Also, using the "we" when talking about the society in general is often indicative of IEs steming from the Mental ring so there is that.Yeah, that's a good question. If I had to guess I'd say Ti, whether Beta or Alpha, is still going to "value" categories, especially with Socionics. But Beta ST is thought to be pragmatic logic, kind of seeing things more simply, where a type might be thought to fulfill a certain organizational role or encompass a person more simply. But with Alpha or Gamma, you have more complicated NT logic, so they see more possibilities for the person and what more specifically to do with that individual. I'm guessing it then just means something like "expansive thinking" versus "limited thinking" or something like that.
I agree. There is much confusion in the typology community. To remove ambiguity I think it's more safe to look at each system as independent. If one wants to integrate different element from different systems then one must acknowledge that one is then building a new system even if one uses the same nomenclature...Yeah, I think I get it. There's a Rusted Typology video on panjungianism. He calls it a disease lol - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQtnpqxyv1c
But there's an inherent problem in having many typologies all based off the same Jungian nomenclature as well. It's like having 800 different religions that all claim they are true and every other religion is false. But somehow we're supposed to pick one or see them as all valid? It's just not logically consistent when we can just interpret something differently and say it's valid because "those dirty annoying panjungians lol". Cause then we don't have a point of reference for removing ambiguity. To remove ambiguity, you could take aspects of different interpretations and create something logically consistent, but then people still get mad and say somebody is "combining" things. It almost feels like in politics if I say criticize say Donald Trump, people freak out and call me a Liberal, when I also criticize Biden and am actually Independent. It's hard to have honest discussions.
So my question - If there is no way to remove ambiguity, isn't that a huge epistemological problem?
Fair enough, thanks for the typing I always appreciate that !...I don't know. It does seem to match up well with Ti-polrs and sometimes people that "say" they are ILI. But I mean I don't know, that'd be weird for me to say something definitively like that to you. Just is a pattern I guess.
Maybe, you know there are some forumites who are "Jungian" in the same way as you are. For instance @Tallmo and @CR400AF , they sure know about Jung's psychology and I like them !That's interesting. I think I'm at odds with Socionics then. My focus seems to have always been on the Jungian stuff as processes in people and correlating that through Socionics math and using the descriptions and ideas as things to look for and observe. So I guess I'm more of a purist Jungian?
That's the right approach and that's how Jung intended. I mean, when he said for instance the "Introverted thinking type" he was like saying 'This guy is the kind of guy who thinks by himself and is kinda stubborn, and here is why [....] " and I'm barely exaggerating .Well, to answer these more directly, put another way, I think the 8 functions can be correlated to philosophy of mind as Aristotelian Forms. intuition/sensing, feeling/thinking, extroversion/introversion seem capable of each representing all the different ways that consciousness can interpret and interact with reality. Going over it would be pretty in-depth and I don't know if I'm the best person to do that, but I guess I could ask instead, can you think of anything that couldn't be put into one of the 8 functions?
Now, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since Jung's PT. With the advent of modern cognitive science (50's) and its development, we have entered a new paradigm in which the notion of perception of reality is constantly challenged.
No. It's not a question of rejecting the Jungian unconscious. I don't "believe" in Freud and/or Jung paradigms blindly as if it was the gospel truth if that's what you want to know. To me they are more like philosophical movements.But the dual aspect is what describes the "unconscious". It's supposed to influence your ego function. And understanding that influence is part of Analytical psychology.
So I guess I don't understand when you sayI'm sorry but I have to reject the premise in red. "Using" a function doesn't imply the simultaneous usage of any part of its paired function. I mean, I don't think paired functions are tied like some kind quantum entanglement . But fair enough, let's continue...Do you mean you reject the Jungian unconscious? I don't understand.
That said, the Jungian unconscious (I would put it in plural) is more complex than just duality between the the dominant and the inferior function (its "unconscious" paired function). For one there are more that just one unconscious (more or less) functions in the same unconscious "space". These unconscious functions are of the personal unconscious but doesn't encompasses the whole unconscious (personal / Collective). Plus some aspects of the inferior and other functions are brought to consciousness as the person journey in the process of individuation.
So when I said that you can't use a function along with its paired function at the same time i.e. both the dominant and the inferior it was not a rejection of the Jungian unconscious but just a reminder of a rule inherent to the psyche. That rule applies to socionics too. What is unconscious (and there is a lot) is out of reach of consciousness, it's as simple as that.
I think what you are referring to is an archetypical complex that Jung called the Shadow.But neuroticism has a lot to do with this "unconscious" part of the ego functions. [Blasphemy ! ] I was just trying to say that there seems to be two types of Jungian neuroticism, where somebody can apply negative aspects to the unconscious functions that they essentially believe and project, or just have a big ego, which implies imbalanced rationality/irrationality and introversion/extroversion. But the example might have been bad. I'm not an expert on Psychological types. Jung has a way of writing that I don't understand immediately. But it would be weird for somebody to deny that neuroticism isn't a part of the 8 functions (and not saying that's what you're saying, but just pre-emptively stating).
The manifestations of the inferior function are archaic and very childish just like socionics 1D functions. That said, neuroticism has much more to do the individual personal psychology and neurosis than with cognitive functions. There are no inherent neuroticism in the 8 functions regardless.
Anyway, Thank you for your time. That was very interesting (and much easier to read for me this time ahah !) !
Last edited by godslave; 05-14-2024 at 09:03 PM. Reason: a minor tweak
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
I only mind when people spam 10 messages in a row. With spoilers it will be even more difficult to search for messages
Can a mod please deal with him trying to @ me…. when he is supposed to be “leaving me alone”.. Also, this isn’t really to “help”, this typing is based on not knowing me at all, assuming things about myself, and also literally a hate typing with your own negative views of eie as you went on and on and on and on, and fucking on about and literally turnt eie into a pejorative towards myself.. You’ve never seen a video of myself, you don’t know how I behave irl or how I do outside of mental health episode in general really, so your typing means nothing because of this, and even less because you’ve spite typed and tried weaponize this eie bs on me.
No one would even agree with your DCNH assessment, as literally everyone who does type me as an EIE goes with “EIE-H” or “EIE-N”.. Even those who type me ILI or IEI go with H or N for myself..
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
I'm confused. By 8 functions, you are referring to Jung's 8 types? Because they very much have to do with neuroticism. He describes it for each type, but just as an example from Psychological Types, here is Te - https://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/...--------------Jung can be hard to read and understand (I don't get what that last sentence is even saying), but he seems to describe generally the issue that Te has with Fi.
The inferiority of feeling in this type manifests itself also in other ways. In so far as it corresponds with the dominating positive formula, the conscious attitude becomes more or less impersonal, often, indeed, to such a degree that a very considerable wrong is done to personal interests. When the conscious attitude is extreme, all personal considerations recede from view, even those which concern the individual's own person. His health is neglected, his social position deteriorates, often the most vital interests of his family are violated -- they are wronged morally and financially, even their bodily health is made to suffer -- all in the service of the ideal. At all events personal sympathy with others must be impaired, unless they too chance to be in the service of the same formula. Hence it not infrequently happens that his immediate family circle, his own children for instance, only know such a father as a cruel tyrant, whilst the outer world resounds with the fame of his humanity. Not so much in spite of as because of the highly impersonal character of the conscious attitude, the unconscious feelings are highly personal and oversensitive, giving rise to certain secret prejudices, as, for instance, a decided readiness to misconstrue any objective opposition to his formula as personal ill-will, or a constant tendency to make negative suppositions regarding the qualities of others in order to invalidate their arguments beforehand-in defence, naturally, of his own susceptibility. As a result of this unconscious sensitiveness, his expression and tone frequently becomes sharp, pointed, aggressive, and insinuations multiply. The feelings have an untimely and halting character, which is always a mark of the inferior function. Hence arises a pronounced tendency to resentment. However generous the individual sacrifice [p. 440] to the intellectual goal may be, the feelings are correspondingly petty, suspicious, crossgrained, and conservative. Everything new that is not already contained formula is viewed through a veil of unconscious and is judged accordingly. It happened only in middle of last century that a certain physician, famed his humanitarianism, threatened to dismiss an assistant for daring to use a thermometer, because the formula decreed that fever shall be recognized by the pulse. There are, of course, a host of similar examples.
Thinking which in other respects may be altogether blameless becomes all the more subtly and prejudicially, affected, the more feelings are repressed. An intellectual standpoint, which, perhaps on account of its actual intrinsic value, might justifiably claim general recognition, undergoes a characteristic alteration through the influence of this unconscious personal sensitiveness; it becomes rigidly dogmatic. The personal self-assertion is transferred to the intellectual standpoint. Truth is no longer left to work her natural effect, but through an identification with the subject she is treated like a sensitive darling whom an evil-minded critic has wronged. The critic is demolished, if possible with personal invective, and no argument is too gross to be used against him. Truth must be trotted out, until finally it begins to dawn upon the public that it is not so much really a question of truth as of her personal procreator.
And this is the problem I have with people separating Jung's typology from the functions. Their understanding and perception might have some truth to it and valid in that sense, sure, but to ignore something so insightful like the neuroticism of the types is just superficial thinking imo.
Because it's very helpful in understanding by recognizing and dealing with our own neuroticism. Without it, we have something like MBTI where we are just identifying with traits and descriptions that create more of a Forer Effect. If MBTI was developed and Jung had never made his Psychological Types, I probably would have lost interest in this completely. Can't people use Jung's Types and still develop their own schools or understandings? I don't understand why there is this weird obsession with separating Jung from his typology...
Jung is talking about repressed feelings for the thinking types. Repressed i.e. out of conscious reach, repressed in the unconscious. What is described here are the empirical manifestations of that repression induced by the thinking type(s) psyche, the individual is not aware of it because it's unconscious. That said, obviously when some unconscious content is brought to consciousness (for instance via analysis/therapy) then that particular content is no longer unconscious since the person is now aware of it. I mean, that's "psychology 101" !
And this is the problem I have with people separating Jung's typology from the functions. Their understanding and perception might have some truth to it and valid in that sense, sure, but to ignore something so insightful like the neuroticism of the types is just superficial thinking imo.Because it's very helpful in understanding by recognizing and dealing with our own neuroticism. Without it, we have something like MBTI where we are just identifying with traits and descriptions that create more of a Forer Effect.
I don't know what you mean by "separating Jung's typology from the functions", there is no Jung typology without the Functions that indeed doesn't make sense. Now, as you probably know, "neuroticism" is a word that covers a lot and even if each type's inferior function archaism is typical without it being systematic , we can't establish a systematic causality (like compensation) between all the neurosises a person might develop and the influence of his inferior function, that wouldn't make sense. As a reminder, Jung's PT descriptions are just "guidelines", if one apprehend them too systematically or rigidly then that would be a mistake, in fact that's exactly what Jung warned about. Indeed, an individual is not a PT in the sense that he or she evolves in the process of individuation.
Sure, I mean there is a lot of people who did and are still doing that. I mean take John Beebe for instance. Not to mention all the Psychologists and the numerous Jung associations members around the world who are experts in "Jungology"...If MBTI was developed and Jung had never made his Psychological Types, I probably would have lost interest in this completely. Can't people use Jung's Types and still develop their own schools or understandings? I don't understand why there is this weird obsession with separating Jung from his typology...
I said several time, that Jung's Typology is ought to be used within the paradigm of Jung's psychology. I don't know who are the people who separate Jung form his typology but I certainly don't.
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
@godslave typing you in the Big Five, I think you are:
highly likely low in Extroversion (high in introversion)
high in Openness to Experience
likely to be above average in Agreeableness
probably below average in terms of Conscientiousness
likely above average in terms of Neuroticism
I would have no problem typing you as IEI or EII in Socionics, if those are meaningful types. Being restricted to just one type out of 16 is usually highly limiting even if the picture may be more accurate than others.
Improving your happiness and changing your personality for the better
Jungian theory is not grounded in empirical data (pdf file)
The case against type dynamics (pdf file)
Cautionary comments regarding the MBTI (pdf file)
Reinterpreting the MBTI via the five-factor model (pdf file)
Do the Big Five personality traits interact to predict life outcomes? (pdf file)
The Big Five personality test outperformed the Jungian and Enneagram test in predicting life outcomes
Evidence of correlations between human partners based on systematic reviews and meta-analyses of traits
A new typology war may start if I express my opinion about some forums' members self typing but I'm a lazy person on holidays
So , have a great time everybody
Souls know their way back home
Would it be a typing war if the person has not self-typed ?
(Personally I would appreciate any opinion, even though I self-typed in Enneagram ( that "H" on my profile doesn't really count) I'm far from being certain of it ). I've never officially self-typed in Socionics even if I've never opposed a typing coming from a fellow forumite !
I am in my head; not society.
Yes, that is who I am, hence the bold am. Also, a brain angel. (+ my own incarnation of a Zelda concept).
My thoughts align w action to succeed what needs (at least in my dreamed ideal, they do)…
Dragons:
Babies, click them to make them grow up into Kara’s Dragon Museum
My favorite adult Museum Exhibits
Tear me apart with your almighty reasoning @godslave @Distance @chriscorey @Braingel @SacredKnowing and everyone else.
Analyse me so hard that I bleed from every crevice.
I do not suffer fools gladly.
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multipliesx
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell⛧
Abstract builds a soul, a house can never become a home without it ♀
A little better makes better more>
♦♦
@Distance any post containing the word "crazy" is worth its weight in gold (figuratively speaking, seeing that Internet posts don't have weight).
Last edited by CosmicCat; 05-30-2024 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Expansion
(My name is Yon Yonson,
I live in Wisconsin.
I work in a lumber yard there.
The people I meet as
I walk down the street,
They say "Hello!"
I say "Hello!"
They say "What's your name?"
I say: (My name is Yon Yonson...
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I'm coming around the idea that Alive might just be an advanced chatbot.