Are IEIs/INFps manipulative?

[Prince Andrei]

Hi All

I've been discussing this with my IEI dual. He's told me some people see him as being manipulative. Being an SLE I naturally don't see this or see how others could perceive him in this way. All I see is how he lifts the moods of others around him with his playfulness and charm.

Can someone tell me how IEIs are manipulative?

Cheers

[Tigerfadder]

I guess that is what is manipulative. Telling a joke is manipulative in itself. Its not necessary bad.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

Yeah you kinda answered your own question- trying to influence the mood is manipulative. What if you don't want the mood to be light and playful? (I prefer light and playful too but that's me)

I know to say what people want to hear, and this allows me to control them in a sense. I only do this if my safety and freedom is being threatened though, in serious situations where I have no choice. It's not like I rub my hands together like a comic book villain and twirl my moustche and go 'heh heh I'm being manipulative.' One must often be manipulative in order to survive- because honesty will only keep you stuck. Or in some situations even killed. Tho that's a little extreme. But it happens. It's way too naive to think people will get the real you and understand you and show you social support and compassion and shit lol. That is dangerously naive. But you can get away from them by getting inside their head and outwitting them by telling them things you know they would like.

[Sol]

Manipulation in general sense is not misleading but an influence or control. Sure that F types use emotions for the influence.

[Adam Strange]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are. Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think. Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people. The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them. All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love. I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both. Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama. EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship. Mostly they have atleast semi-good intentions, they just want people to show them affection and to have good connections with people, just don't be a blind idiot, keep in mind what they want and not what they actually say.

I thought about posting some of my thoughts on IEI manipulation , but @Viktor said everything I was thinking and more. This is monumental, dude. It deserves a place high in the “IEI uncovered” lists.

[Chthonic Daydream]

Viktor's post made me question my interactions with others. Thanks for giving me my Four-in-the-afternoon-existential-crisis fix. Sobered me up.

[Tigerfadder]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are. Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think. Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people. The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them. All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love. I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both. Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama. EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship. Mostly they have atleast semi-good intentions, they just want people to show them affection and to have good connections with people, just don't be a blind idiot, keep in mind what they want and not what they actually say.

A chain of followers

I guess it fits creative Fe.

[Sol]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are.

F types mostly try to be nice. With weak F it's easier to misunderstand the real relation to you.
Sometimes they want to make relations closer, for example to better know you. They may then expand the distance.

> Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think.

In case they want to romantically charm you - that's possible. And P types tend to have more relations.
In other case they say what they think, - it's how to say "I like you" by Ni way.

> Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people.

we all depend on other people. check superid

> The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them.

IEI are playful and feminine to be attractive. So men are around them if they allow. I also saw examples of IEI which prefered long relations.

> All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love.

to be T-S type sometimes is hard. I know

> I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both.

women like to be liked by men. some of them can do it better. and some T-S men do not understand well the real relations between people. to become closer with IEI it needs be more assertive and to show passion to get her, then to kick off the rest "friends" near her. it's her dreams - that one of those friends will behave like her passionate and responsible master

> Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama.

They like some drama as all Fe, but only with good reasons. The exception are E-9 which avoid dramas by any way.

> EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship.

again, seems E-9 case. and they can mislead you in the degree of mutual interest to hold over the "drama" of broken heart
I'm sorry if you had those issues. It's normal part of relations - they may be worse than you'd want.
A girl show you and others the pleasant relation, you like her for this, you get romantic feelings, but girl wants to stay just friends or alike. Then you either do clever things to move that friendship to more pleasant way for her and then to romance, or become angry and do stupid things which scare that girl to keep you on the distance or do nothing. I understand you excellently, as had friendly communication with E-9 girl with good IR.

[Aylen]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are. Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think. Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people. The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them. All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love. I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both. Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama. EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship. Mostly they have atleast semi-good intentions, they just want people to show them affection and to have good connections with people, just don't be a blind idiot, keep in mind what they want and not what they actually say.

I actually like the analysis you did here and you are right it can be used to manipulate people but to me it is only "manipulative" if they don't truly believe it. I have seen all this behavior from other NF and SF types too. Most recently an ESI trying to convince someone he was her TF but he wasn't buying it.

The term is used mostly to explain a connection you never felt before and sometimes never will again. There are elements of mutual unhealthy obsession which is why it is called "twin flames". If it isn't mutual it isn't TF. Plus when it happens to you have to call it something to distinguish it from everything you have ever known. The person is often your opposite in almost every way. It's like duality on crack or maybe it is what happens when sx firsts get in mutually obsessive romantic relationships. I don't really think in those terms anymore but I will describe how I experienced it when I didn't understand some of the psychology around it that I do now.

I can only answer for myself here since I have called one person my "twin flame/soul" and it was a sacred thing to both of us. Others have reminded me of him though in various ways but they weren't him. I love him but I am not in love with him anymore and haven't been in a long time but we still have a strong connection. He is now married with a small child because I was the one who told him to go live his life or he would resent me later for not having children. It was important to him and we wanted different things. I could have been selfish and kept him around for years but I didn't. He still updates me now and then but I have moved on too.

I do get past life impressions. I had one of lungs and bg (keep forgetting their current usernames to mention) when I was rather new here. Lungs and I were in a coven in my "vision". BG and I were in Cambodia. Past life stuff just comes out of nowhere and I have learned to censor myself more since people find it too weird but sometimes even if I get something and I know they are open I don't want to tell the person because they might assume it means that we are supposed to be close or something in this life. It is mostly just symbolic; noticing patterns coalesce anyway but takes too much effort to explain to someone since a lot of people will take things too literal when they are not meant to be taken that way.

I think you are right about multiple people feeling they are close or special to an IEI (or other NF types) but it doesn't mean the IEI feels the same degree of closeness with all of them. It is often a rude awakening for both when an IEI shifts their attention away from someone to go within or to do something else. It can feel harsh or cold when it isn't meant to be. IEI are dynamic types after all. People can end up feeling hurt by misunderstanding. :/

[Sol]

Blablabla

I'm sure you may get more if use. Just need some efforts to look from other sides.
You look as prejudged due to bad emotions gotten with some IEI and the wish to ignore own mistakes.

Hint: some of or all "IEIs" you know peronally can be other types

[Tigerfadder]

Manipulation in general sense is not misleading but an influence or control. Sure that F types use emotions for the influence.

Actually, probably. Which types are most manipulative? Maybe this IEI in the example have people around that is just on the other end of the spectrum or maybe IEI are the most manipulative type?

[niffer]

or maybe IEI are the most manipulative type?

Yes

[Tigerfadder]

Yes

The premises was that all F types somewhat manipulate. But sure T types does it to but in an other expression. Manipulative of IEI seems harmless imo.

[niffer]

The premises was that all F types somewhat manipulate. But sure T types does it to but in an other expression. Manipulative of IEI seems harmless imo.

No

[Tigerfadder]

No

You had problems with those IEI people then?

Edit; I find that Fi people can have more devious manipulative going.

[niffer]

You had problems with those IEI people then?

Yeah lol. You're probably the most manipulative one I've ever met. Luckily, you're also far from the smartest.

[Tigerfadder]

Yeah lol. You're probably the most manipulative one I've ever met. Luckily, you're also far from the smartest.

We had you in that discord but you was just hateful.

[The Reality Denialist]

Some / creatives may generate quite a whirlwind around people who mistake them as too genuine. Take mental notes of how people rotate around them and what kind of impressions they give to a person and to others and can you make a difference (seriously).


I think seekers can be pretty vulnerable in this game.

[niffer]

We had you in that discord but you was just hateful.

Well I'm talking about how you emotionally abused me in 2015-2016 over Skype before I ever really got into this forum or discord but alright, go ahead and try to frame me in a thread about IEI manipulation .. LOL. Dumbass.

Some people never change.

[Tigerfadder]

Well I'm talking about how you emotionally abused me in 2015-2016 over Skype before I ever really got into this forum or discord but alright, go ahead and try to frame me in a thread about IEI manipulation .. LOL. Dumbass.

Some people never change.

Im not framing you and I do not know what you talk about. Creep.

[niffer]

[Sol]

I think seekers can be pretty vulnerable in this game.

while base Ne types just need a tasty cookie to become vulnerable

[The Reality Denialist]

while base Ne types just need a tasty cookie to become vulnerable

I prefer cake.


You know that you have encountered LII/LSI when half baked jokes might make them awkwardly laugh or giggle with very little control.

[Prince Andrei]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are. Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think. Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people. The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them. All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love. I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both. Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama. EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship. Mostly they have atleast semi-good intentions, they just want people to show them affection and to have good connections with people, just don't be a blind idiot, keep in mind what they want and not what they actually say.

This is great stuff, thanks.

Is feeling like they “can’t do shit on their own” common with IEIs? Why do they feel this way?

[Tigerfadder]

Is feeling like they “can’t do shit on their own” common with IEIs? Why do they feel this way?

I think it is the victim stuff.

[Tigerfadder]

I was thinking that if they lived in the stone age, they probably wouldn't be that good at hunting or building things, so it's a survival strategy to be on good terms with people. And I don't know what they feel, I'm mostly just talking out of my ass here. But having 1D Se and Te limits how independent you can be, you'd need a social context.

Its an interesting thought, but honestly I think type and all that is more a social construct and a way to transfer information and group dynamics and dividing job between people. In a situation where you start with being born in the wilderness and be that all your life we all be pretty much equal in this reguard. My ideas about this topic anyways.

[Tigerfadder]

Yeah maybe, it would be kinda sick to do an experiment to find out lol. I'm gonna disagree because I believe in VI, and that physical appearance actually indicates what function strength you have. And if type was a social construct, then you wouldn't be able to VI people, because there would be no link between your body and your type. I don't think a naturally weak person can have 4D Se, I think your body determines how you develop early in childhood. If you were frail as a child, you couldn't participate as much in rough play, and you can't make up for lost experience by acting differently as an adult. And it goes without saying that this applied to all the functions and not just Se.

Sure but what I mean is when you are a child, or even older, you "tap" into the information and energy of specific parts when interacting socially. So you notice for example you are strong when interacting with people and so you start to develop an identity as where you are strong. You recognize that people you identify with move their body in a way and you start to take on those traits. So you develop in a way that you will age and look like a specific way because you act a specific way because of what is your identity which is a social construct. xd

[Olimpia]

I was thinking that if they lived in the stone age, they probably wouldn't be that good at hunting or building things, so it's a survival strategy to be on good terms with people. And I don't know what they feel, I'm mostly just talking out of my ass here. But having 1D Se and Te limits how independent you can be, you'd need a social context.

What about EII? They have the same strengths and weaknesses (dimensionality-wise).

[Sol]

I was thinking that if they lived in the stone age, they probably wouldn't be that good at hunting or building things

Like all N types are not good with manual work.

> But having 1D Se and Te limits how independent you can be, you'd need a social context.

in general, all types and functions are equal for life

[falsehope]

Manipulation by definition is unscrupulous influence over people. So it has negative connotations. Being manipulative is trait of personality disorders like psychopathy and it's not trait of personality type. Sure, Fe likes to influence people but you can't say that in every case it's malignant. Annoying at worst.

I noticed that the word "manipulation" is improperly used very often (I hope so), I think what you really mean is "trying to influence" without bad connotations.

[Hermit Soul]

Yeah they tell you what you wanna hear so that you'll like them, and they make shit up to give a false impression of how close you are. Things like "We've met in an earlier life", "twin flames" sounds really special, but they say that to more people than you might think. Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people. The more assertive IEIs are also really good at leading you on, imagine a histrionic woman with a bunch of guy friends that all think they are gonna get some, and some of them might, but she doesn't have a real interest in any of them. All of them think they have a really close special connection with her, so they give her all their attention and shower her with love. I'm not sure if they do it because they actually want the attention and admiration or because it's some kinda sadistic thing where they get a rush out of controlling people and wasting their time, probably both. Anyways, the reason why they tell you things you wanna hear, and agree with your beliefs etc is mostly because they don't actually like too intense drama. EIEs want drama, IEIs like drama if it's happening to someone else or on tv, but not in their own friend group, they wanna keep that stable. So you can easily make them believe pretty much anything, just because they don't wanna have a confrontation and compromise the friendship. Mostly they have atleast semi-good intentions, they just want people to show them affection and to have good connections with people, just don't be a blind idiot, keep in mind what they want and not what they actually say.

Is this how most people view IEIs? IEIs are so misunderstood.

Btw, the most manipulative person I ever met is an ESI, they actually use suicide to manipulate people into giving in to them during a disagreement, and they even bragged to me about this entire incident..
So I doubt manipulation has anything to do with a person's socionics type. When a person is manipulative, they usually have some sort of mental illness in them or some sort of personality disorders, so I'll look into that first before attributing it to their socionics type.

[Bertrand]

Clyde is a great diplomat

[Prince Andrei]

Is this how most people view IEIs? IEIs are so misunderstood.

Btw, the most manipulative person I ever met is an ESI, they actually use suicide to manipulate people into giving in to them during a disagreement, and they even bragged to me about this entire incident..
So I doubt manipulation has anything to do with a person's socionics type. When a person is manipulative, they usually have some sort of mental illness in them or some sort of personality disorders, so I'll look into that first before attributing it to their socionics type.

How would you describe it?

[whodat]

Yeah they woudn't be good at hunting or building things either, and the same thing applies for them, although they would have a different approach

They can hold the bag of nails and tell the LSE how awesome they are and what good things are possible. Fetching hammers and other tools as soon as possible when requested. Haha!

[Hermit Soul]

How would you describe it?

A healthy IEI is hardly manipulative at all. Despite not valuing Fi, IEIs actually have strong Fi, so I often find myself getting strong feelings about things, especially about ethical related things. To me, manipulating my loved ones is just wrong. It's dishonest, it's unethical. At least, that is how my demonstrative Fi viewed it. Also, if I care about someone, I'd want to be as honest with them as possible, because having a good relationship with someone requires honesty, and manipulating someone is far from honesty.

The only time I wouldn't hesitate to manipulate someone is when either me or my loved ones encounter a dangerous situation. Let's say there is someone who kidnapped my loved ones, and during this situation my manipulative side would start coming out because I want to rescue my loved ones. I'll call the police, and then I'll prepare a bag filled with fake cash to lure the kidnapper out of their hiding place. This is the only kind of situation that I'll be manipulative, because it's a critical situation, and I have to get my loved ones out to safety.

[Prince Andrei]

A healthy IEI is hardly manipulative at all. Despite not valuing Fi, IEIs actually have strong Fi, so I often find myself getting strong feelings about things, especially about ethical related things. To me, manipulating my loved ones is just wrong. It's dishonest, it's unethical. At least, that is how my demonstrative Fi viewed it. Also, if I care about someone, I'd want to be as honest with them as possible, because having a good relationship with someone requires honesty, and manipulating someone is far from honesty.

The only time I wouldn't hesitate to manipulate someone is when either me or my loved ones encounter a dangerous situation. Let's say there is someone who kidnapped my loved ones, and during this situation my manipulative side would start coming out because I want to rescue my loved ones. I'll call the police, and then I'll prepare a bag filled with fake cash to lure the kidnapper out of their hiding place. This is the only kind of situation that I'll be manipulative, because it's a critical situation, and I have to get my loved ones out to safety.

This is why IEIs are just perfect! Full of inexpressibly delightful character traits that come through at critical moments.

[whodat]

Yeah maybe, it would be kinda sick to do an experiment to find out lol. I'm gonna disagree because I believe in VI, and that physical appearance actually indicates what function strength you have. And if type was a social construct, then you wouldn't be able to VI people, because there would be no link between your body and your type. I don't think a naturally weak person can have 4D Se, I think your body determines how you develop early in childhood. If you were frail as a child, you couldn't participate as much in rough play, and you can't make up for lost experience by acting differently as an adult. And it goes without saying that this applied to all the functions and not just Se.

I make the same observation as you do here.

It would take IMMENSE personal revelation to notice where you could improve and it would be a conscious effort, instead of a naturally occurring process from childhood, with years and years of exposure. Even so, you could never replicate seasons after seasons of numerous events, let's say rough and tumble play, for example wrestling on a trampoline during the summer with your brothers and sister and neighbourhood friends.

As an adult, you could take martial arts courses, take up BMX biking, take swimming classes, and maybe start going out of comfort zone and physically contacting people in a playful way to kinda make up for lost time. IMO the better adults in my life are still connected to that childlike ability to play and have fun - and no I'm not talking about childlike in socionic terms.

However, its almost impossible to duplicate experiences of a child growing up by acting different as an adult (but probably not impossible if you had the right mind set, imo those kinds of mindset are SUPREMELY rare and challenging to cultivate unless maybe through altered states of consciousness brought on by traditional forms like military occupations, other vocational changes, music genres that promote Se, dance, youtube subcultures - think paleo, sport groups, recreational groups, and mind altering drugs. These are solutions to trigger the revelations I first mentioned, difficult, but probably not impossible). By age 25-30, much of the ground work has already been set.

For this reason, its challenging to date a only child, for me, as they have strange sense of boundaries (often to few in both directions) and little ability to push back when they suffer mild joking blows. Very thin skinned in numerous ways from the physical to the psychological.

[Stellafera]

Because they wanna build up close relationships with people, I think it's like some hunter gatherer stuff where they know they can't do shit on their own so they need to depend on other people.

This is accurate, at least from my own experience. IEIs have little faith in their abilities with Se and Te so they use their other skills to compensate. IEIs know how to identify what other people are good at and what those people want. And by pulling on those levers, the IEI can have a chance to make up for his or her difficulties in these arenas of life through wits alone, meanwhile in return helping others validate themselves by realizing their own best abilities get other people to do shit for them. Call it networking, building up resources, delegating, etc.

[Tigerfadder]

I do not think Se is the biggest problem for IEIs or even ILIs. For IEIs its mainly to make profit out of their tasks, getting a reward for their work and energy. Se problems are more related to EIIs and LIIs.

[Pookie]

Like all N types are not good with manual work.

> But having 1D Se and Te limits how independent you can be, you'd need a social context.

in general, all types and functions are equal for life

For life as a whole. They are not all equal in each pocket and niche.