You and I are different people but you'd make a great scholar. When folk sit around discussing philosophy a person like you would likely keep the momentum in a much fruitful direction.Originally Posted by Armitage
Enjoy your time here on this forum
You and I are different people but you'd make a great scholar. When folk sit around discussing philosophy a person like you would likely keep the momentum in a much fruitful direction.
Enjoy your time here on this forum
Merci beaucoup, you have a sharp mind yourself as well. You made some astute observations.
I think LIE Ni goes better with ESI Se. They compliment each other better by making up for each other's blind spots.
This also makes sense to me. If you assume that an LIE-Ni has strengthened Ni and is therefore similar to an ILI-Te, then you could assume that an ESI-Se with enhanced Se is moving towards being an SEE-Fi, and an ILI is Dual to an SEE.
I don't feel like I have enough experience with my dual to be sure. With regards to my Activator, either seems to work fine
“Things always seem fairer when we look back at them, and it is out of that inaccessible tower of the past that Longing leans and beckons.”
— James Russell Lowell猫が生き甲斐
It's just common sense. ITR is all about psychological distance. Complementary subtypes help close the distance more quickly.
Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?
I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR
To be honest, I view what you're talking about to be non Socionics related.
If I understand you correctly...
Yeah I think I might need to come back to this one laterread more, make more observations
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-17-2022 at 03:22 PM.
LSI-Se do exhibit more Ti than SLE-Ti but how each type communicates or what they exude will be different
Subtype will be pertinent to psychological attraction because an LSI-Se will resemble an ESI-Se moreso than any other type. As a result of that, ESI-Se may attract EIE-Ni types quite strongly.
LOLOL
Can you back off please? You are clearly insecure but I am not your mother here to teach you things. Do you think I care that much if you think what I write sounds stupid? The amount of stupid stuff I write on here, if I cared I would have stopped writing a long time ago.
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-18-2022 at 01:34 PM.
i think he didnt intend for u to be "hurt" so to say. he just gives a reaction and waits for one. i read that duals need to drop their defense barriers for interaction between them to work. well his problem may be that he's not "clear" with what his intentions are. and in case u are butthurt he might be thinking ur reaction would prove that he is in the right and u deserve to be mocked for real. this can be inconsiderate of ur current mental/emotional state. and u may be inconsiderate of his in regards to him being impulsive in expression bc he is repressing feelings or has his own issues whatever. i dont intend to be patronizing and ive been both ppl on both sides but im not proud of what i diidddddd
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
Nah. I'm not insecure. The shit you actually write is funny to me. Don't sweat it, its your life. Live that shit how you like.
Ok, I reread what you said and I think I understand what you mean now.
What keeps a couple together? Some people have the same fight over and over again; it's as if the same hot topic holds them together like moths to flames. Some people stay together because they're distracting themselves from something else. It could even be said that the basis of attraction consists precisely of the flaws you find in the other person. Ie. Something about the other person's flaws hits you subconsciously and suddenly you've fallen for them.
My parents have been together for over 30 years so I have a lot of experience making observations about them. Their marriage isn't what I would call happy. They're not duals. I think they have compatible DCNH types and they hold similar views on a lot of things. They share many of the same values, colloquially speaking. But their personalities are too similar to mesh properly. You could even argue that their incompatibility is precisely what keeps them together because they keep expecting something that the other can't fulfill.
What makes a dual relationship have longevity? Let's assume duality is some sort of panacea for everything (which is not, but let's just say for the sake of argument that it fixes a lot of problems), what makes it last beyond the point of remedy?
Edit:
Answers:
-mutual hardships
-common enemies
-non type related flaws
-something else I'm unconscious of
Edit edit:
There's also the fact that duals are opposites in what they are conscious of and competent in.
Last edited by ILoveChinchillas; 03-19-2022 at 12:03 AM.
I think if a dual couple with opposite subtypes fall in love, they have similar chances at happiness and longevity, as a dual couple with same subtypes falling in love
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-17-2022 at 09:30 AM.
ok a few things:
1. I've had a quick think about couples I know. Mostly they do seem to share the same subtype. I know a couple of mirror couples who seem like they could have opposite subtypes. I have an SEI friend with strong si subtype. Her partner is IEI, I would say it isn't clear what subtype he is, probably slightly ni but almost looks like he's trying to be fe and could easily pass as IEI-fe.
2. I've been reading a bit more about subtypes on sociotype.com. Copying and pasting the following for reference:
'A preference for the base function positively strengthens all of the inert functions (functions 1, 4, 6, and 7) and correspondingly weakens all of the contact functions (functions 2, 3, 5, and 8). A preference for the creative function positively strengthens all of the contact functions (functions 2, 3, 5, and 8) and correspondingly weakens all of the inert functions (functions 1, 4, 6, and 7).
Rebel's ideas about subtypes are connected to his Input/Output theory (something to do with temperament) which I don't quite understand but I am familiar with much of his general observations, and agree with many, so I'm sure I could get my head around his more complex observations at a later date.
Regarding his comment about subtypes, I think he was aware he was being controversial. I don't think he necessarily wanted people going around thinking opposite subtypes were better for each other as in reality it's probably harder for people of opposite subtypes to come together.
Let's stick to discussion of traditonal socionics if people prefer. I am not massively confident with socionics knowledge myself but I know the basics and I can type people.
3. I hadn't realised that as IEI-ni I'm supposed to have strengthened te? In some ways it makes sense (I was much much better at te stuff when I was young. I loved school. Then when I was 16/17 I developed si-related mental health problems and I instantly began to find te stuff hard. Later on it became quite irritating when people acted like they were better at te stuff than me (even if they were) because I KNEW I wasn't meant to be as bad as it as I was, I just didn't know how to get back on track. I am now recovering from those mental health problems (many years on) but it'll probably take me a few years to get to a point where I have normal IEI-levels of te..or maybe it's the se I'm lacking too.
4. I love this article by Rebel: http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html I often refer to the table in that article when thinking about the strength of ITR. I agree with his order of ITR (in a general sort of way).
He puts them in the following order: Dual, super-ego, semi-dual, illusionary, kindred, look-a-like...that's the top 6. The discussion in this thread made me think about how the effect of subtypes might influence the strength of ITR, making it stronger or weaker. So for example, my relationship with an ILI-ni might feel a little bit like a look-a-like relationship. Or my relationship with a SEI-fe might feel like a kindred relationship. Having the opposite subtype would strengthen the relationship and make it resemble the ITR one above it in Rebel's list. I do think however, that generally, it isn't people's subtypes that make/break a relationship or weaken/strengthen it. NTR aspects of personality are much more important. Perhaps someone with the same subtype (who can pass as the opposite subtype) is best. Edit: I've just realised that Rebel actually puts look-a-like and kindred at the same level of strength, however, kindred is still placed higher in the table so perhaps it is slightly better?
@Stray Cat, if you are going to comment on this stuff, do try to be polite. I will not engage with the topic if starts to cause me stress. I already think about this stuff enough as it is, and do not want to lose too much sleep over socionics, whether that's through excitement or anxiety....
Edit: I know people will find it very very hard to accept that super-ego relations can be very strong. These couples do exist.
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-19-2022 at 11:20 AM.
Since you said it yourself, I don't have to anymore, but I was just about to jump onto it when I read your last sentence. My observations don't agree with it, other's observations don't agree with it (https://www.personalitycafe.com/thre...ations.124305/), and I thus think that that undermines Rebel's theory. That there exist super ego pairs does not mean that they are ideal, because there also exist conflictor couples.
Because Rebel tries to work from an overarching premise, if one part of the output is flawed, it implies that the whole premise behind it is flawed. Rebel's claim that super ego pairs would be stronger than semi-duals is unfounded, which means that the rest of Rebel's theory is too. Not to mention the ludicrous idea that I would get along with a conflictor better, than a mirror, it is far from the truth, because most of my friends are mirrors, but I only have one SEI friend from high school and we don't talk as frequently as any of my ILI friends and I. This whole theory of Rebel is way too much theorizing with far too little reality.
This explains many of your thoughts regarding Socionics that others and I do not think the same about as you.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-19-2022 at 03:09 PM.
i’m not sure what you’re talking about
Well, you seem to have quite the fondness of SEIs I recall, which is totally fine and dandy, but at one point you started theorizing how the IEI-SEI kindred relation must be one of the best in general and I was just like: https://www.pinterest.es/pin/on-twit...1329666450563/
Also, I still don't get why you conflated Si with kindness, whereas the consensus seems to be that this would be Fe in public or Fi towards those close to us.
I just have been wondering for quite a while now about the reasoning behind those particular trains of thought, it's nothing personal, just curiosity.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-19-2022 at 06:55 PM.
You mean in a different thread? I don’t think either kindred or look-a-like are the best..at all. Hm I’ll comment later on si stuff, need to think. I think si is to do with safety/well-being. Which I learnt from Rebel lol. I also think the polr is an important part of the personality which we can be good at, in a unique if not obvious way. Which I learnt from Rebel, sort of. He has an article.
Cool and fucking cool.
This is why Armitage demanded I support my theory with appropriate rationale. I was happy he did. Why the fuck should anyone value my theory without appropriate accompanied rationale? Rebel isn't a moron but his psychological theories are TOO ideological yet many people (smart people) on this forum will mull over his theories that are more horse piss than actually wise
Rebel is very smart and valued here. His ideas are interesting but, to me, all they are is interesting.
You use "might" quite a bit regarding Rebel's analytical inquiries. Aliens "might" exist in another universe & you can certainly cherry pick possible reasons to support that theory but that particular psychological habit only serves makes your opinion so subjective that people could eventually tune you out, psychologically
You are an intelligent gal who has much say and offer but you owe yourself to bet on that intelligence, rather than be duped into Rebel's "possible" foolishness.
@Armitage I did say I agree with the ordering ‘in a general sort of way’, as in..it’s very hard to explain. But there may be other people who would like to consider a non-traditional approach too so it’s worth publicising the article imo.
I agree that @Rebelondeck's article is interesting, although his ordering of the ITR's is very different from mine.
I could have written that. It is the bane of an LII's existence.
@Adam Strange I do value your observations a lot too.
Well, thanks. I grew up with an IEI-Fe cousin and it was basically, I didn't understand her very well, and she didn't seem to like me that much, but I'd defend her to the ends of the earth.
Hmm I don’t know I feel like most of his comments made everyone uncomfortable because they were so painfully true most of the time haha. I liked them because I’ve lived under a bit of a rock and I really needed and appreciated those home truths lol. That doesn’t mean I haven’t made my own observations (unlike Stray Cat seems to think).
@Rebelondeck's observations are normally amazingly spot-on, which is why I read his ITR descriptions with such interest. However, I think he was misled into thinking that the system he devised would work for everyone, because 4D Ti and very low Se.
How are his observations amazingly spot on? Sometimes a person can wow you with their eloquence, yet say absolutely jack shit.
A poem could be beautifully written yet how wise would it be to actually apply it? You think that he might have been misled into thinking his system would work for everyone when his system probably only works for 10% of people.
Interesting points though.
Last edited by Stray Cat; 03-19-2022 at 06:35 PM.
@Adam Strange I think he just didn’t explain his theories in a way people could understand. So the article alone might seem silly, but when you read his additional comments on the forum about each ITR it makes more sense. E.g I think he’s aware in reality that conflictors and super-egos might not get on, but he also knew that they had the potential to, if they gave each other more of a chance, or learnt to appreciate each other. So if a miracle like that happened, then technically they could be longer lasting couples than other ITR.
I think he also maybe thought that some couples might not be as happy as they appear- e.g a long lasting activity couple might not be as happy as a long-lasting look-a-like pair. It’s hard to measure I guess :/
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-19-2022 at 04:16 PM.
@Bethany, you make it sound like he's gift-wrapping an elephant. "If they got along better, then they would fit my theory that says that they should get along better."
But I will say, he consistently makes a number of very insightful posts.
I think he's one of the better theorists on this forum, which is why I was so surprised at how far from my experience his ITR chart was.
But I'm not the greatest person for rating subjective experiences. I was married to my Supervisor for many years.
his articles needed more additional explanations imo, but I think he couldn’t be bothered
i feel bad to say this lol. I think he knew if he started to explain things too much he would feel pressured to explain more and more.his articles needed more additional explanations imo, but I think he couldn’t be bothered
subtype…?
subtype…?
I'm an LIE-Te, and she was an SLI-Te, so we actually interacted mostly as Mirrors, rather than as a Supervision pair. The Supervision only appeared when there were differences of opinion, and then the cracks (one-way conflict) in the relationship appeared.
I had an SLI-Te father (narcissist), and the SLI-Te ex-wife had an LSE-Te father (self-interested asshole), so we were already used to the abuse. The marriage felt like home in some bad ways. Lol.
I've met some SLI-Si females and I feel zero attraction towards them, so yes, subtypes matter a lot.
My son is also an SLI-Te and he has an IEE-Ne aunt, and he says that she's intolerable because she's entirely too scattered. On the other hand, my SLI-Te son has been helping my IEE-Fi bookkeeper move and together they are like well-oiled gears.
@Adam Strange hmmm but he did say that his theory fit his real life observations. (I guess we all can be biased though by our own ideas!)
I agree that we can be biased by our own ideas and experiences. I certainly fall into that group.
However, from what I've seen of LIIs, and I've known a few for many years, they tend to not have very successful relationships. (Neither do LIEs.) I think it's because of low-dimensional feelings, coupled with low dimensional sensing, but that's an argument made after the fact.
LIIs are the only group I've seen who marry themselves (other than some ESIs), and who have told me that "happiness in marriage isn't as important as some other things". I assume those other things involve personal comfort, but I could be wrong, since I'm not LII.
Sadly true, it's so weird, we're successful, popular, and oh so humble too (self-mockery, LOL), but in love we're terrible. Why do other types succeed in love, while we don't? To be charming we use our role Fe, not our Fi. It would make sense if we don't know what partner we would like to date and fail to foresee bad ones. It would make more sense to see LIEs in unhappy marriages, than alone, because we can be attractive... Thinking of it right now, you married your supervisor and I know that my LIE supervisor married a dragon of a woman first before he divorced her and found his dream woman. He has several pictures of her in his office, together with pictures of his step-daughter of her. On the picture of her in the train she had definitely a case of resting bitch face, like: "Quit the games and put that camera down, husband." I like her picture in the garden better in which she was genuinely laughing. It's been discoloured by the sun by now, but still the authenticity of the laugh shows.
When he was still married the dragon wife he tried to work as much as possible, in order to stay away from her. When he had divorced her and eventually found the love of his life, as he calls her, he was making plans with her for the future. They would travel the world together when he retired. Sadly she passed away a few years ago. Next year he'll retire and he says that he feels neutral about it, but I feel that that isn't true. He's still sad about her loss, which makes sense. When he said that he has accepted her demise, I responded that it's okay to still be mourning. Identicals are interesting, you just know intuitively what the other truly means.
He and I have spoken in between his feedback for me about his love and my dates with the money ESI-Se before, but I never asked him where they met. @Adam Strange, shall I do so?
That sounds sad, to settle for an unhappy marriage. I would expect ESIs, like my mom, to go for LSEs instead, due to a shortage of LIEs?
My parents met while working at Philips. You might be undercutting your chances of meeting ESIs by working as an independent company for the weapons industry, whereas most ESIs like a steady job for a moral industry. Either that, or you'll have to pick up horseriding like One said. My mom and her SEE best friend did it, I met many a female ESI at horseriding, and also a female ESI classmate of mine did.
Are they single and the same age, LOL?
I agree with chocolatte saying that you're the kindest person ever, because you're already apologizing in advance for the truth you said. Cute
By the way, if at any point I say something stupid, just mention, because I probably don't intend it that way. I'm under a bit of stress lately, which makes me blurt out my feeling thoughts more impulsively. I don't know how it works, but it feels like my Se is getting overcharged lately. I could do with some exercise, whereas instead I'm programming all day every day. Well, except for the semi-daily bicycle ride back and forth to university. Normally I can quietly work away for ages on my projects, whereas every Se-dom or -secondary would have become restless long ago already. But now I don't, I have excess energy... It probably all has to do with the return of my French date.
Last edited by Armitage; 03-19-2022 at 08:17 PM.
Yes, the real life observations of an LII.
I agree he writes interesting stuff, but as an opposite quadra person, it's not the best for me.
It can be harsh to see yourself in the eye of someone who's opposite to you, mostly if it misunderstands where you're coming from, and there's little ways to bridge the gap because the misunderstanding is kind of fundamental to who we are.
he has a personality outside of being LII. He seemed like a person who generally had a lot of wisdom about people in general.
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