Subtype matching or not in duality and activity

[Adam Strange]

So I've had some few hours of experience with ESIs (my Duals) of both Se and Fi subtypes, and I feel like I can say something about their differences and how I (a Te-dom LIE) relate to each type.

Both types are very easy for me to get along with. Generally, the ESI-Se feels more "public and we'll get shit done" and the ESI-Fi feels more "private and comfortable, just relax and take it easy."

The ESI-Se is tending towards my Activity partner, the SEE, and I like to DO things with ESI-Ses. Activities of all sorts. However, they aren't much for discussing their feelings. They mostly focus on the external world and what they can do in it. Honestly, they don't even like to think that other people might have personalities. They seem to just take life as it comes, and they will drop people in a heartbeat if they think that they don't get along.

The ESI-Fi is tending towards my Semi-Dual, the EII. ESI-Fis are softer than ESI-Ses and more feely, but they might not be as good at manipulating people as the ESI-Se, probably because they are deeper into their own Fi viewpoint. So much so that, when an ESI-Fi tells you a story about their friends, it's really hard to tell who did what to whom, because the ESI-Fi already knows, herself, whom she is talking about and of course, you should know this too, because her Fe mirror neurons don't work very well.

I think that which sub-type you prefer depends on the kind of life you want to live.

In my case, I would be proud to show off either type to my friends and business partners, but I think that my friends and business partners would have very different reactions to the two types.

I think they'd be amazed that both types seem to know almost nothing about facts. Neither type seems to read a lot of books for information, and the gaps in their knowledge just amazes me sometimes. They aren't anti-Te like an IEI, but they for sure don't take to it naturally. Similarly, the gaps in my Fi probably astound them, frankly.

I think they'd be intimidated by both types, but in different ways. I think the ESI-Se would intimidate them through her energy and assertiveness. I think the ESI-Fi would intimidate them because they'd quickly feel judged. Lol.

If I wanted a comfortable life partner who would be easy to get along with during the long arctic nights, I'd choose the ESI-Fi.
If I wanted a partner who pushed me to do more stuff, but who went home with another person, I'd choose the ESI-Se.

[Adam Strange]

You wish it did, but it's the contrary and the reason why so many kids are now from separated families. Divorcies have skyrocketed the past decades, because few people nowadays come from healthy, loving families. It's a known fact that the kids who received the most abusive and neglectful upbringing most frequently become teen parents later on, because the rare care of their own parents limited their development of self-inhibition. In addition, the only way in which they know how to parent is based on their own shitty upbringing, so they continue the cycle. There is hope, though, because parenting classes have proved effective in breaking this vicious cycle.

But I don't expect Washington to start providing free parenting classes around the country, because the only free handouts in the States are given to those already rich. Being poor sucks, because it's a death trap that keeps one down. Terry Prachett explains it best:
"The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness."

The historians and social analysts agree that all evidence points to the States getting into a New Civil War in a few decades, due to this ever increasing separation between the have's and the have not's. It's apartheid v2.0 and there's no way to avert it, because the political system is completely corrupted with its gerrymandering, two party system, and electoral colleges.

I read that passage from Pratchett's book, and I agree with it. Hell, I live it. I'm presently standing in a pair of $500 shoes which have comfortably lasted for at least five years, maybe longer, while still looking like new.

I have a hard time imagining a civil war in the States. A war suggests a contest between roughly equal powers, and the poor are being pushed ever lower.
Rather, I see something closer to the transition that the Roman empire experienced when they went from an Imperial Power to the Middle Ages.
Resource depletion eventually brought everyone down, but there were still kings, knights (the riot police), the church (the propaganda arm of the regime), and serfs.

[Karbonkel]

You wish it did, but it's the contrary and the reason why so many kids are now from separated families. Divorcies have skyrocketed the past decades, because few people nowadays come from healthy, loving families. It's a known fact that the kids who received the most abusive and neglectful upbringing most frequently become teen parents later on, because the rare care of their own parents limited their development of self-inhibition. In addition, the only way in which they know how to parent is based on their own shitty upbringing, so they continue the cycle. There is hope, though, because parenting classes have proved effective in breaking this vicious cycle.

I feel like the main reason for this is the fact that we all have it so good that we don't really have to depend on our partners anymore for stability and happiness. I think back in the day more people stayed together simply because of the fact that it brought stability. The male was the breadwinner working long hours and the woman raised the often 10+ children of the family, so you kinda needed each other to make things work (religion played a big role in this, with education and material wealth replacing this these days). Nowadays, with both parents working, resulting in fewer children and material wealth its no longer necessary to stay together, since you now have more (material) options to separate and to find someone better. I think Socionics itself is a result of this "luxury" to be able to find someone better. Sad to see it creates disrupted family situations.

[Stray Cat]

Ok, I see we interpreted it differently. To me her reply read as a desire to explore the idea with others. But I mean, NFs and ethical types do tend to explore ideas based on nonconcrete methods such as vibes and feelings and IEIs in particular are very ramble-y, however frustrating it may be to the more logical and rigorous. It's not really intentional nor particularly a mark of lack of desire for the truth (especially for Ti HA types) IMO.

I hear ya. Tbh, my opinion is that Rebel was wrong moreso than Bethany being in the wrong. I disagree with his particular psychological assessment that Bethany decided to explore. Her exploration of Rebel's concept is relatively normal. If somebody theorizes that the sun is green, people can explore that idea if they wish.

My opinion is that Rebel wasn't working with the facts, making Bethany's exploration a bit silly. Would she have come to that conclusion on her own? I would hope she would. The way Rebel constructs his theories are not entirely factual in my opinion. If I had a theory to share, it would be my responsibility to share pertinent and, perhaps, practical facts so as to give others a better ideological basis to explore.

[Stray Cat]

I would imagine that raising a lot of selfish, asocial kids would decrease the birth rate, since these kids have no experience with long-term commitment and few examples of healthy, committed relationships between two people.

I'd say selfish, asocial kids would increase divorce not birth rate. The only thing that really decreases birthrate is opportunity.

In the western world, the opportunity for financial prosperity decreases birthrate. In third world countries, the quality of water, for example, decreases the birthrate. In those countries, often times, children might die before puberty due to the fact that the parents will not raise them. I mean, if the population is 65% 12 years old and under while 20% are between 12-49, the youth will not be adequately supported because the working class (12-49) would be so small. If the farmable land in an area is congested, war could ensue to fight over those resources

[Bethanyclaire]

But isn’t there something appealing about the opposite subtype..I mean EIE-ni is damn hot. Sei-fe is damn hot. There’s some facts for you or is that just coz I’m a IEI-ni and I want what I can’t have.

Is there something about Estp-ti that means I’m less likely to get bored of them..is there a bit more push/pull in the interaction, also kinda like Adam was saying, and Rebel..you get more done together, you achieve more. Is there some satisfaction in that.

edit: right so if I think about it the two people I’ve loved the most in life, outside of family, are my childhood best friend (female EIE-fe) and a male SEI-fe. The former was platonic. I don’t know what yet, but I think there is significance in this telling me that perhaps, both subtypes (for duality anyway) are equal in their attraction.

[Stray Cat]

But isn’t there something appealing about the opposite subtype..I mean EIE-ni is damn hot. Sei-fe is damn hot. There’s some facts for you or is that just coz I’m a IEI-ni and I want what I can’t have.

Is there something about Estp-ti that means I’m less likely to get bored of them..is there a bit more push/pull in the interaction, also kinda like Adam was saying, and Rebel..you get more done together, you achieve more. Is there some satisfaction in that.

edit: right so if I think about it the two people I’ve loved the most in life, outside of family, are my childhood best friend (female EIE-fe) and a male SEI-fe. The former was platonic. I don’t know what yet, but I think there is significance in this telling me that perhaps, both subtypes (for duality anyway) are equal in their attraction.

The purpose of duality would be functional complimentation and/or functional balance. According to theory, and with you being an IEI-Ni, the SLE-Se would be most ideal in bringing you out of your shell or, perhaps, getting you out of a funk. A psychologically self actualized SLE-Se would bring the most psychological comfort, in general, to an IEI-Ni. However, if any type engages in self-loathing, their true psychological type doesn't manifest and, thus, that person might not appreciate their dual.

An IEI-Ni and SLE-Ti likely regurgitate similar or obvious information due to both of having boosted Ni and Ti functions. It's also the reason some suggest that an LSI-Se could be a better compliment to the IEI-Ni than the SLE-Ti

In terms of some sort of compatibility over the long haul, opposite subtypes would probably either bore each other or have issues related to life rhythms. IEI-Ni are very irrational, a bit free spirited in going with their flow and SLE-Ti have a slight bent toward some sort of stated rationale for behavior.

It's your life, obviously and you can pursue whomever you like

[ILoveChinchillas]

Which is a better match in duality, same subtype pairing or different subtype? For example, LIE-Ni goes better with ESI-Fi or with ESI-Se? Why?

And in Activity (i.e. LIE-Ni with SEE-Se or SEE-Fi)?

I think LIE Ni goes better with ESI Se. They compliment each other better by making up for each other's blind spots.

[AWellArmedCat]

I don't feel like I have enough experience with my dual to be sure. With regards to my Activator, either seems to work fine

[Adam Strange]

I think LIE Ni goes better with ESI Se. They compliment each other better by making up for each other's blind spots.

This also makes sense to me. If you assume that an LIE-Ni has strengthened Ni and is therefore similar to an ILI-Te, then you could assume that an ESI-Se with enhanced Se is moving towards being an SEE-Fi, and an ILI is Dual to an SEE.

[ILoveChinchillas]

It's just common sense. ITR is all about psychological distance. Complementary subtypes help close the distance more quickly.

[Armitage]

It's also the reason some suggest that an LSI-Se could be a better compliment to the IEI-Ni than the SLE-Ti

I would assume that a LSI-Se would still exhibit more Ti, than a SLE-Ti, though, because otherwise the LSI could not have been a LSI, since their hallmark definition is primary Ti.

This also makes sense to me. If you assume that an LIE-Ni has strengthened Ni and is therefore similar to an ILI-Te, then you could assume that an ESI-Se with enhanced Se is moving towards being an SEE-Fi, and an ILI is Dual to an SEE.

For me it is like this, because I generally find ESI-Fi's too soft and squishy compared to ESI-Se's, who I look up to for their bravery and speed of action. The force of will of ESI-Se's can be a clashing point, but even if we clash about it, I find it sexy to rebel against their drive with them doubling down in response. It's paradoxical, but somehow it's highly attractive to me.

If I wanted a partner who pushed me to do more stuff, but who went home with another person, I'd choose the ESI-Se.

Why would you not desire to go home with the ESI-Se?

[Bethanyclaire]

I think if a dual couple with opposite subtypes fall in love, they have similar chances at happiness and longevity, as a dual couple with same subtypes falling in love

[Bethanyclaire]

It's just common sense. ITR is all about psychological distance. Complementary subtypes help close the distance more quickly.

Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?

I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR

[Adam Strange]

Why would you not desire to go home with the ESI-Se?

@Armitage, you read that wrong.

I very much would like to go home with an ESI-Se, but she would probably not want to go home with me.

I find ESI-Se women to be more mercurial and impulsive and, unfortunately, less psychologically stable than ESI-Fi women.

I originally called ESI-Fi women “nesters” and ESI-Se women “the sports model” because of the impression I got from each type. The ESI-Fi give the impression of stability and home-making, while the ESI-Se give the impression of female Amazons, ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

I once went out with an ESI-Se and for the first few minutes, she was in a total panic. She was scanning everywhere for any sign of danger and she looked like she was on the verge of screaming hysterically. I engaged my “I’m an e8, I’ll take care of everything calmly, there’s nothing to be afraid of”, and spoke to her in normal, calming terms, and she stabilized and calmed down.
Weeks later, I asked her why she was in a panic, and she said, “I wasn’t in a panic, I just didn’t know who you were. Who is this guy?”
@FDG, another LIE, is married to an ESI-Fi and he said that the ESI-Ses that he dated were psychologically unstable. I wouldn’t go quite that far, but they seem to see danger and threats at every turn. I have no problem with that, personally, and I find the ESI-Ses to be sexier and more fun, but I happen to like instability.

I assume that this instability and constant doubting of relationships would lead them to have a Plan B in their relationships. Hence, they would be more likely to impulsively go home with someone else.


I’ve dated three women whom I would classify as ESI-Se. They were all beautiful and admirable and so much fun and I didn’t sleep with any of them, and that was not for my lack of trying. They were always coming and going, looking and backing away. “Come here, get away.”

I’ve dated three women whom I’d classify as ESI-Fi, and I slept with two and not the third only because she was too young. ESI-Fi observe you silently from a distance, evaluate you, then pull you into their nest to make eggs with. Now go out there and find some resources so we can raise these ducklings.

[ILoveChinchillas]

Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?

I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR

To be honest, I view what you're talking about to be non Socionics related.

[ILoveChinchillas]

Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?

I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR

To be honest, I view what you're talking about to be non Socionics related.

If I understand you correctly...

[Bethanyclaire]

If I understand you correctly...

Yeah I think I might need to come back to this one later read more, make more observations

[Stray Cat]

I would assume that a LSI-Se would still exhibit more Ti, than a SLE-Ti, though, because otherwise the LSI could not have been a LSI, since their hallmark definition is primary Ti.

LSI-Se do exhibit more Ti than SLE-Ti but how each type communicates or what they exude will be different

Subtype will be pertinent to psychological attraction because an LSI-Se will resemble an ESI-Se moreso than any other type. As a result of that, ESI-Se may attract EIE-Ni types quite strongly.

Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?

I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR

LOLOL

[ILoveChinchillas]

Hmm. But what keeps a couple together? Psychological comfort or something else?

I associate love with fire, opposing forces, energy. Comfort/balance is important but I don’t think it’s necessarily the most important aspect of duality or other positive ITR

Ok, I reread what you said and I think I understand what you mean now.

What keeps a couple together? Some people have the same fight over and over again; it's as if the same hot topic holds them together like moths to flames. Some people stay together because they're distracting themselves from something else. It could even be said that the basis of attraction consists precisely of the flaws you find in the other person. Ie. Something about the other person's flaws hits you subconsciously and suddenly you've fallen for them.

My parents have been together for over 30 years so I have a lot of experience making observations about them. Their marriage isn't what I would call happy. They're not duals. I think they have compatible DCNH types and they hold similar views on a lot of things. They share many of the same values, colloquially speaking. But their personalities are too similar to mesh properly. You could even argue that their incompatibility is precisely what keeps them together because they keep expecting something that the other can't fulfill.

What makes a dual relationship have longevity? Let's assume duality is some sort of panacea for everything (which is not, but let's just say for the sake of argument that it fixes a lot of problems), what makes it last beyond the point of remedy?

Edit:
Answers:
-mutual hardships
-common enemies
-non type related flaws
-something else I'm unconscious of

Edit edit:
There's also the fact that duals are opposites in what they are conscious of and competent in.

[Armitage]

LSI-Se do exhibit more Ti than SLE-Ti but how each type communicates or what they exude will be different

Examples, please?

Subtype will be pertinent to psychological attraction because an LSI-Se will resemble an ESI-Se moreso than any other type. As a result of that, ESI-Se may attract EIE-Ni types quite strongly.

An LSI-Se would behave akin to an ESI-Se even more so than an EII-Fi, despite the ESI and EII sharing their primary function?

I find ESI-Se women to be more mercurial and impulsive and, unfortunately, less psychologically stable than ESI-Fi women.

Definitely, I can confirm this with the ESI-Se guys too.

I originally called ESI-Fi women “nesters” and ESI-Se women “the sports model” because of the impression I got from each type. The ESI-Fi give the impression of stability and home-making, while the ESI-Se give the impression of female Amazons, ready to fight at the drop of a hat.

Yes, they do, I find their strength and bravery impressive.

I wouldn’t go quite that far, but they seem to see danger and threats at every turn. I have no problem with that, personally, and I find the ESI-Ses to be sexier and more fun, but I happen to like instability.

They tend to have trust problems, indeed.

I assume that this instability and constant doubting of relationships would lead them to have a Plan B in their relationships. Hence, they would be more likely to impulsively go home with someone else.

As long as you give them no reason to doubt the relationship, things should be fine.

I’ve dated three women whom I would classify as ESI-Se. They were all beautiful and admirable and so much fun and I didn’t sleep with any of them, and that was not for my lack of trying. They were always coming and going, looking and backing away. “Come here, get away.”

That's because you're doing it wrong, you were trying to lead them into your house, but you should follow them. They decide the right time and place, and what we do is provide suggestions, so we suit their Ne-POLR by handling that for them. And they want us to take care of Te too, but in their way. How we handle Te and if we listen to them informs their Fi character judgement of us.

I’ve dated three women whom I’d classify as ESI-Fi, and I slept with two and not the third only because she was too young. ESI-Fi observe you silently from a distance, evaluate you, then pull you into their nest to make eggs with. Now go out there and find some resources so we can raise these ducklings.

Yes, once you have met the trust level you're in and they then clearly pull you in. They're loyal, kind, and very warm. ESI-Se's always have some lingering doubt, and thereby inspire me to show the best of me every day. They're passionate, self-confident, and headstrong.

[Bethanyclaire]

LOLOL

Can you back off please? You are clearly insecure but I am not your mother here to teach you things. Do you think I care that much if you think what I write sounds stupid? The amount of stupid stuff I write on here, if I cared I would have stopped writing a long time ago.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Can you back off please? You are clearly insecure but I am not your mother here to teach you things. Do you think I care that much if you think what I write sounds stupid? The amount of stupid stuff I write on here, if I cared I would have stopped writing a long time ago.

i think he didnt intend for u to be "hurt" so to say. he just gives a reaction and waits for one. i read that duals need to drop their defense barriers for interaction between them to work. well his problem may be that he's not "clear" with what his intentions are. and in case u are butthurt he might be thinking ur reaction would prove that he is in the right and u deserve to be mocked for real. this can be inconsiderate of ur current mental/emotional state. and u may be inconsiderate of his in regards to him being impulsive in expression bc he is repressing feelings or has his own issues whatever. i dont intend to be patronizing and ive been both ppl on both sides but im not proud of what i diidddddd

[Stray Cat]

Can you back off please? You are clearly insecure but I am not your mother here to teach you things. Do you think I care that much if you think what I write sounds stupid? The amount of stupid stuff I write on here, if I cared I would have stopped writing a long time ago.

Nah. I'm not insecure. The shit you actually write is funny to me. Don't sweat it, its your life. Live that shit how you like.

[Stray Cat]

Examples, please?




An LSI-Se would behave akin to an ESI-Se even more so than an EII-Fi, despite the ESI and EII sharing their primary function?





Definitely, I can confirm this with the ESI-Se guys too.



Yes, they do, I find their strength and bravery impressive.



They tend to have trust problems, indeed.




As long as you give them no reason to doubt the relationship, things should be fine.




That's because you're doing it wrong, you were trying to lead them into your house, but you should follow them. They decide the right time and place, and what we do is provide suggestions, so we suit their Ne-POLR by handling that for them. And they want us to take care of Te too, but in their way. How we handle Te and if we listen to them informs their Fi character judgement of us.



Yes, once you have met the trust level you're in and they then clearly pull you in. They're loyal, kind, and very warm. ESI-Se's always have some lingering doubt, and thereby inspire me to show the best of me every day. They're passionate, self-confident, and headstrong.

Irrational subtypes tend to be information junkies, while rational subtypes are different in that they are very quick to present to society their particular analytical view.

An LSI-Se would still be "rigid" as a chosen lifestyle through their Ti function but, like the ESI-Se, they would constantly be engaging physical activities that make a direct impact on the world surrounding them. They'd also freely communicate about these physical activities as if there were limitless in opportunity

The SLE-Ti would be "free-spirited" as a chosen lifestyle through their Se function but, like the ILE-Ti, feels an impulse to explain the rationale regarding their impactful actions. They easily communicate rationale slightly better than they do actually engaging in impactful action.

This is Damaris Phillips, a SEI-Fe. She exudes her Si, but communicates Fe which is a decisive function
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-SSXRjvAsMU

This is red haired Becky Lynch, an IEI-Fe. She exudes Ni (and Se, really), but communicates Fe, a decisive function
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UA-u4HzaSMU

The IEI-Fe and SEI-Fe communicate similarly but exude Ni or Si, respectively.

Here is, Sally Field an ESE-Si. She exudes her Fe energy but very much communicates via her informational Si perspective
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CxON6zc4R0o

[Stray Cat]

Travis Pastrana, an LSI-Se

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IihmGHO3SFs

Leonardo DiCaprio, an SLE-Ti
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fJWaKISvXe8

William Forsythe, an SLE-Ti
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyePBU2ago

[Stray Cat]

I would assume that a LSI-Se would still exhibit more Ti, than a SLE-Ti, though, because otherwise the LSI could not have been a LSI, since their hallmark definition is primary Ti.





For me it is like this, because I generally find ESI-Fi's too soft and squishy compared to ESI-Se's, who I look up to for their bravery and speed of action. The force of will of ESI-Se's can be a clashing point, but even if we clash about it, I find it sexy to rebel against their drive with them doubling down in response. It's paradoxical, but somehow it's highly attractive to me.





Why would you not desire to go home with the ESI-Se?

You and I are different people but you'd make a great scholar. When folk sit around discussing philosophy a person like you would likely keep the momentum in a much fruitful direction.

Enjoy your time here on this forum

[Armitage]

You and I are different people but you'd make a great scholar. When folk sit around discussing philosophy a person like you would likely keep the momentum in a much fruitful direction.

Enjoy your time here on this forum

Merci beaucoup, you have a sharp mind yourself as well. You made some astute observations.

[Bethanyclaire]

ok a few things:

1. I've had a quick think about couples I know. Mostly they do seem to share the same subtype. I know a couple of mirror couples who seem like they could have opposite subtypes. I have an SEI friend with strong si subtype. Her partner is IEI, I would say it isn't clear what subtype he is, probably slightly ni but almost looks like he's trying to be fe and could easily pass as IEI-fe.

2. I've been reading a bit more about subtypes on sociotype.com. Copying and pasting the following for reference:

'A preference for the base function positively strengthens all of the inert functions (functions 1, 4, 6, and 7) and correspondingly weakens all of the contact functions (functions 2, 3, 5, and 8). A preference for the creative function positively strengthens all of the contact functions (functions 2, 3, 5, and 8) and correspondingly weakens all of the inert functions (functions 1, 4, 6, and 7).

Rebel's ideas about subtypes are connected to his Input/Output theory (something to do with temperament) which I don't quite understand but I am familiar with much of his general observations, and agree with many, so I'm sure I could get my head around his more complex observations at a later date.

Regarding his comment about subtypes, I think he was aware he was being controversial. I don't think he necessarily wanted people going around thinking opposite subtypes were better for each other as in reality it's probably harder for people of opposite subtypes to come together.

Let's stick to discussion of traditonal socionics if people prefer. I am not massively confident with socionics knowledge myself but I know the basics and I can type people.

3. I hadn't realised that as IEI-ni I'm supposed to have strengthened te? In some ways it makes sense (I was much much better at te stuff when I was young. I loved school. Then when I was 16/17 I developed si-related mental health problems and I instantly began to find te stuff hard. Later on it became quite irritating when people acted like they were better at te stuff than me (even if they were) because I KNEW I wasn't meant to be as bad as it as I was, I just didn't know how to get back on track. I am now recovering from those mental health problems (many years on) but it'll probably take me a few years to get to a point where I have normal IEI-levels of te..or maybe it's the se I'm lacking too.

4. I love this article by Rebel: http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html I often refer to the table in that article when thinking about the strength of ITR. I agree with his order of ITR (in a general sort of way).

He puts them in the following order: Dual, super-ego, semi-dual, illusionary, kindred, look-a-like...that's the top 6. The discussion in this thread made me think about how the effect of subtypes might influence the strength of ITR, making it stronger or weaker. So for example, my relationship with an ILI-ni might feel a little bit like a look-a-like relationship. Or my relationship with a SEI-fe might feel like a kindred relationship. Having the opposite subtype would strengthen the relationship and make it resemble the ITR one above it in Rebel's list. I do think however, that generally, it isn't people's subtypes that make/break a relationship or weaken/strengthen it. NTR aspects of personality are much more important. Perhaps someone with the same subtype (who can pass as the opposite subtype) is best. Edit: I've just realised that Rebel actually puts look-a-like and kindred at the same level of strength, however, kindred is still placed higher in the table so perhaps it is slightly better?

@Stray Cat, if you are going to comment on this stuff, do try to be polite. I will not engage with the topic if starts to cause me stress. I already think about this stuff enough as it is, and do not want to lose too much sleep over socionics, whether that's through excitement or anxiety....

Edit: I know people will find it very very hard to accept that super-ego relations can be very strong. These couples do exist.

[Armitage]

I know people will find it very very hard to accept that super-ego relations can be very strong. These couples do exist.

Since you said it yourself, I don't have to anymore, but I was just about to jump onto it when I read your last sentence. My observations don't agree with it, other's observations don't agree with it (https://www.personalitycafe.com/thre...ations.124305/), and I thus think that that undermines Rebel's theory. That there exist super ego pairs does not mean that they are ideal, because there also exist conflictor couples.

Because Rebel tries to work from an overarching premise, if one part of the output is flawed, it implies that the whole premise behind it is flawed. Rebel's claim that super ego pairs would be stronger than semi-duals is unfounded, which means that the rest of Rebel's theory is too. Not to mention the ludicrous idea that I would get along with a conflictor better, than a mirror, it is far from the truth, because most of my friends are mirrors, but I only have one SEI friend from high school and we don't talk as frequently as any of my ILI friends and I. This whole theory of Rebel is way too much theorizing with far too little reality.

I love this article by Rebel: http://www.socionics.com/articles/thestrength.html I often refer to the table in that article when thinking about the strength of ITR.

This explains many of your thoughts regarding Socionics that others and I do not think the same about as you.

[Bethanyclaire]

@Armitage I did say I agree with the ordering ‘in a general sort of way’, as in..it’s very hard to explain. But there may be other people who would like to consider a non-traditional approach too so it’s worth publicising the article imo.

[Bethanyclaire]

This explains many of your thoughts regarding Socionics that others and I do not think the same about as you.

i’m not sure what you’re talking about

[Adam Strange]

@Armitage I did say I agree with the ordering ‘in a general sort of way’, as in..it’s very hard to explain. But there may be other people who would like to consider a non-traditional approach too so it’s worth publicising the article imo.

I agree that @Rebelondeck's article is interesting, although his ordering of the ITR's is very different from mine.

This whole theory of Rebel is way too much theorizing with far too little reality.

I could have written that. It is the bane of an LII's existence.

[Bethanyclaire]

Hmm I don’t know I feel like most of his comments made everyone uncomfortable because they were so painfully true most of the time haha. I liked them because I’ve lived under a bit of a rock and I really needed and appreciated those home truths lol. That doesn’t mean I haven’t made my own observations (unlike Stray Cat seems to think).

[Bethanyclaire]

@Adam Strange I do value your observations a lot too.

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange I do value your observations a lot too.

Well, thanks. I grew up with an IEI-Fe cousin and it was basically, I didn't understand her very well, and she didn't seem to like me that much, but I'd defend her to the ends of the earth.

[Adam Strange]

Hmm I don’t know I feel like most of his comments made everyone uncomfortable because they were so painfully true most of the time haha. I liked them because I’ve lived under a bit of a rock and I really needed and appreciated those home truths lol. That doesn’t mean I haven’t made my own observations (unlike Stray Cat seems to think).

@Rebelondeck's observations are normally amazingly spot-on, which is why I read his ITR descriptions with such interest. However, I think he was misled into thinking that the system he devised would work for everyone, because 4D Ti and very low Se.

[Bethanyclaire]

@Adam Strange I think he just didn’t explain his theories in a way people could understand. So the article alone might seem silly, but when you read his additional comments on the forum about each ITR it makes more sense. E.g I think he’s aware in reality that conflictors and super-egos might not get on, but he also knew that they had the potential to, if they gave each other more of a chance, or learnt to appreciate each other. So if a miracle like that happened, then technically they could be longer lasting couples than other ITR.

I think he also maybe thought that some couples might not be as happy as they appear- e.g a long lasting activity couple might not be as happy as a long-lasting look-a-like pair. It’s hard to measure I guess :/

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange I think he just didn’t explain his theories in a way people could understand. So the article alone might seem silly, but when you read his additional comments on the forum about each ITR it makes more sense. E.g I think he’s aware in reality that conflictors and super-egos might not get on, but he also knew that they had the potential to, if they gave each other more of a chance, or learnt to appreciate each other. So if a miracle like that happened, then technically they could be longer lasting couples than other ITR.

@Bethany, you make it sound like he's gift-wrapping an elephant. "If they got along better, then they would fit my theory that says that they should get along better."

But I will say, he consistently makes a number of very insightful posts.

I think he's one of the better theorists on this forum, which is why I was so surprised at how far from my experience his ITR chart was.

But I'm not the greatest person for rating subjective experiences. I was married to my Supervisor for many years.

[Bethanyclaire]

@Adam Strange hmmm but he did say that his theory fit his real life observations. (I guess we all can be biased though by our own ideas!)