Classical composers

[Jonathan]

It appears that three classical composers have been typed by recognized Soconists:

Chopin - INFp. Agreed...I've generally seen Chopin as

Shostakovitch - INTp. Agreed...Clearly with strong sense of dual reflected in his music.

Rachmaninoff - INTj. I understand why they say that; I have trouble with it though; maybe it's because Rachmaninoff followed the example of Schumann and Tchaikovsky in seeking to disguise the influence of T. Does anyone think Delta NF for Rachmaninoff?

Here are some others I propose:
[EDIT: J.S.] Bach: INTj
[EDIT: C.P.E Bach: ENTp]
Handel: ESTj
Mozart: ENFp
Tchaikovsky: ESFj
[EDIT: Felix] Mendelssohn: ENTj
Beethoven: ISFp (although sometimes I hear his music as if with very strong )
Liszt: ESFp

[oyburger]

I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.

I agree, it just doesn't seem right

[Jonathan]

I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.

I agree, it just doesn't seem right

Why? Some people have proposed ESTj; I don't think that's right either, though. What type characteristics do you think Bach had?

@Balzac:
My guess for Stravinsky is ISTp.

[Park]

I think Maurice Ravel is ISTp. INFp makes sense for Chopin but maybe ISFp could work also.

[oyburger]

I don't think JS was INTj, it doesn't sit right, though I'm not entirely sure what type he might be.

I agree, it just doesn't seem right

Why? Some people have proposed ESTj; I don't think that's right either, though. What type characteristics do you think Bach had?

I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.

[Gilly]

There isn't much in Beethoven. Mostly alot of really stormy , IMO. Love it.

[strrrng]

There isn't much in Beethoven. Mostly alot of really stormy , IMO. Love it.

I definitely don't see too much in his music, in comparison with someone like Chopin; but delta seems a bit of a stretch. He uses abrupt metrical shifts prominently in the symphonies, piano trios and string trios, bringing in different instruments somewhat disparately. I've noticed this quality pretty consistently in /-valuing musicians.

[Jonathan]

I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.

Really?? There wasn't that much money in being a church musician. If he was in it for the money, he should have followed in Handel's footsteps and been a court musician and written operas and such.

My sense is that biographical information on Bach is a little scanty, but it seems that early on, he had a certain idealism about writing a new kind of music for the church, based on what he had heard by Buxtehude. Later on, he had more conflicts at his various jobs because people thought his stuff was too hard to sing, etc.

Where did you hear that he was in it for the money? It seems that he wanted to have posts where he could provide sufficiently for himself and his family, but that's different from being in it for the money, isn't it?

[Jonathan]

INFp makes sense for Chopin but maybe ISFp could work also.

I also hear in Chopin, but it sounds a lot like Str@#$%@#$%skaya's description of in INFps. (See in the sticky under the Beta thread.)

It's interesting, by the way, how, in that description at least, the super ego block isn't the big bad wolf people seem to think it is.

[Jonathan]

There isn't much in Beethoven. Mostly alot of really stormy , IMO. Love it.

How do you destinguish between expression of and ? (Actually, I have a post on that too, in the General section.)

Anyhow, I have a hard time seeing Beethoven as INFj, because the S seems paired with F, and N with T. If it were INFj, it would also give out ESTj vibes (according to my theory that dual sides tend to be always visible in music.)

[oyburger]

I'm just thinking about some of the things I've read about him, like how he was in it all for the money and such.

Really?? There wasn't that much money in being a church musician. If he was in it for the money, he should have followed in Handel's footsteps and been a court musician and written operas and such.

My sense is that biographical information on Bach is a little scanty, but it seems that early on, he had a certain idealism about writing a new kind of music for the church, based on what he had heard by Buxtehude. Later on, he had more conflicts at his various jobs because people thought his stuff was too hard to sing, etc.

Where did you hear that he was in it for the money? It seems that he wanted to have posts where he could provide sufficiently for himself and his family, but that's different from being in it for the money, isn't it?

I have read that he would turn down more prestigious jobs for jobs that would pay double, play at funerals for extra cash, stuff like that. I think there is a difference bewteen providing for your family and being greedy.

Also he might have been a church organist, but during the sermons, he'd sneak off with girls (before his marriage I hope). Perhaps its all just tabloid speculation, but it just doesn't sound INTj-ish to me

[Jonathan]

I have read that he would turn down more prestigious jobs for jobs that would pay double, play at funerals for extra cash, stuff like that. I think there is a difference bewteen providing for your family and being greedy.

Also he might have been a church organist, but during the sermons, he'd sneak off with girls (before his marriage I hope). Perhaps its all just tabloid speculation, but it just doesn't sound INTj-ish to me

Sounds like tabloid speculation to me.

I'd be interested in your sources though; it's always interesting to find out more about composers' lives.

Whatever he was doing during the services, his music always evokes the quality of a perfect, stable, peaceful, cheerful family life, equally ESFj and INTp at the same time.

As to playing funerals for extra cash and seeking higher-paying positions, that sounds like the life of a musician. I mean, if he was making a mint and kept doing stuff for money anyway, then it sounds like greed. But when you're trying to make it as a musician, that's what you do....and whenever I read about Bach, his life sounds kind of the way it is for musicians nowadays....you simply do what you have to do, otherwise you end up as a computer programmer or something.

[oyburger]

I don't remember the source, it was just one of those many tidbits that somehow got lodged in my brain because I thought it was interesting at the time.

[Jonathan]

I don't remember the source, it was just one of those many tidbits that somehow got lodged in my brain because I thought it was interesting at the time.

What about the music? As an INTj, does it sound kind of like the way you think? Or does it foreign?

Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?

[oyburger]

Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?

Probably Chopin or Rachmaninoff. Oddly though my favorite since forever is Mozart.

[Jonathan]

Let's flip it around. If you were the composer (and let's assume there are no technical limitations here; i.e., that you have the ability to write whatever you want), what composer's music would the music of your mind sound like?

Probably Chopin or Rachmaninoff. Oddly though my favorite since forever is Mozart.

It's a very interesting thing...In art, people tend to express their ideal, not necessarily their "ego block." It's not surprising that INTjs may gravitate toware the more Romantic composers....and I suppose that's one reason to think that Rachmaninoff really could be INTj.

On the other hand, I do think that some people seek to epitomize their own type in their art. I guess it's a matter of choice for the artist, whether to express one's conscious or less conscious side.

[Korpsy Knievel]

I know a few diehard Bach fans who are alpha NTs and, if they knew about socionics, would rip their hair out and soil themselves at the sight of Bach as ILI.

[Neverend]

I don't really like Bach. I don't mind if he's typed as my opposing quadra, maybe Aushra didn't like him either. Too technical, not emotionally uplifting enough for alpha. My big winners for alpha here are Tchaikovsky, Grieg, Rachmaninov, Schumann.

[Korpsy Knievel]

Have at 'em. I'll stick with Berg, Bartok, Penderecki, Webern, Britten, Ligeti, Takemitsu, and Brouwer.

[The Ineffable]

K0rpsey & the likes would sometimes claim to know IRL types who defy ones expectations just to prove someone (including what's perceived as "Saint Aushra") wrong. Such things are anyway only informative, should be taken with a grain of salt, especially since the IRL people can be mistyped too.

[Ezra]

This is only well known classical music I've included (bar the soundtracks), but you're welcome to include less well known classical music if you're an elitist snob.


(I never even knew YouTube videos could be longer than ten minutes.)

Best. Tune. Ever. Analyse, my friends, analyse. I can't tell if there's Fe in here, or if it's Fi, or something else. I'd be very interested to know what people get from this; be it Fe, Si, Ne or even Ti. Any function. What is the most prominent?



Everybody's favourite fascist musician. Wagner. I sense a lot of Se, or at least Se valuing, with his powerful and awe-inspiring music.





Again, a fair bit of Se near the end; has a very militaristic feel to it (and what a surprise, it's celebrating military victory; Russia's victory at the battle of Borodino). It's a brilliant piece overall though, maybe with some Ne in there during most of part one, and much of part two, designed to conjure up what may have happened during the battle through its evocative tones.



Rachmaninoff. Ne? Fe? Maybe even some Si here, but I can never tell with such a weird function to identify in music.



Very well known piece from Vivaldi. Probably quite Se-esque.



Hans Zimmer is soundtrack incarnate. A lot of his stuff is quite shit, but often he will produce something with the capacity to blow anyone clean away. This is a track from The Thin Red Line, a film in my top five. Notice the slow build up, something I'd attribute to Ni (Zimmer's focus on how melodies work together and blend etc. over a gradual build up or increase), and the crashing blend of Se and Fe midway through the track, only to quiten again. Almost like a volcano that erupts and then returns to its inert state. (I heavily advise you to check out the whole album if you're a fan of Zimmer's work.)



This is a gorgeous piece of music from the film American Beauty. Thomas Newman's signature piano is there, and the melody is sheer brilliance, fitting masterfully with the ambience. Maybe some Ni and Fi here. I still feel quite shit at seeing all the functions at work in music, though, so maybe you can spot something else, or elaborate one what I see in it.



Vangelis. I chose not to include 1492 Conquest of Paradise, despite its being a fantastic score. With all his soundtracks, there's a lot of Ni, and often quite a bit of either Fe or Se, I can't decide how to differentiate the two. That can be something else people can help me with.



Parts of this are remiscent of Gladiator: More Music From The Motion Picture, especially the opening. I sense Fe here. Beyond that, I couldn't say.

Please, someone help me to identify Fi and Si in music. I still cannot do it. Also, Te and Ti exclusively in classical music, where there's no beat, and seemingly no linear rhythm.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Ti is noticeable in the structure of music, for example -- I would say that the repeating rhythmic motif in Mars from Holst's The Planets is an example of Ti in classical music.

Other such "repetitive" music, or music with repeating motifs, would be "Ti music" at least to some extent IMO.

It's not repetitive to be Ti, it's repetitive like that to create a mood.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

That's not the point.

If it's creating a mood then there's more to it and it's purpose than 'Ti'. I don't understand what you mean.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

It doesn't matter what the purpose is, it's still Ti.

The purpose matters. The effect can also matter. We seem to be going round in circles here. I believe we've had (as did Logos with you) a coversation in regards to music recently. However it seems to be important to you, as you've typed a lot out here, so I'm not looking to say your all wrong. I think it would help you tho if you were able to expand your understanding of it more so, rather than just sticking to the (limited?) conclusions you appear to reach.

Have you posted your overall thoughts on this somewhere? If you haven't, I think it would be a good idea.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

No. Let me explain something to you --

In a type, the most important thing to protect, to strive for, to whatever, is the leading function. This is the "purpose" of a person.

And why do you think I would perhaps believe otherwise?

The creative function is the function that type is most likely to use in aid of the base function, but individuals of all types can be observed using pretty much any function in aid of the leading function, but it does not change the fact that they are using some other function.

No. Your thinking is far too muddled, and thats maybe what i'm picking up on when your trying to apply aspects to music..

Sometimes a function is not used in connection with the base function. Sometimes they are used independently. The base function is the dominant one of course, but we can, for short periods, switch others on, and that one off, also.

The most obvious example is temporarity engaging the role function in place of the dominant function..they cannot both be switched on at the same time. For you to say all the functions in the model always exist to support dominant is therefore incorrect.

Do you agree?

Ti is not any less Ti when used for Fe goals. There are many compositional devices that can be used to create a "mood" or whatever, but these compositional devices are not the mood itself!

But you don't know what was going on in the composers head to know if he or she was using Ti or Fe, so how the music was created is difficult to judge.

As it stands the importance to the listener, composer and performer of the effect can't be understated.

My overall thoughts are too internal to write down in full, unfortunately.

You should try writing a draft, then re-draft it, you might be suprised at how much you've managed to say and it'll probably be pretty much complete by draft no.3..that's if you want to, of course!

[Jarno]

People like Mozart and Beethoven...

Which types tend to be great composers?

I guess they are pretty introverted, hanging around their piano all day long.

Are they ISFP because of their great feeling of rythem etc?

Or which type would they be?

[Nexus]

People like Mozart and Beethoven...

Which types tend to be great componists?

I guess they are pretty introverted, hanging around their piano all day long.

Are they ISFP because of their great feeling of rythem etc?

Or which type would they be?

I think you mean composers. Kirk Hammett is ISFp and he is a great composer, but I don't think that type is exclusive to musical ability.

[Gilly]

Beethoven is a probable IEI IMO.

[noid]

A Fe creative stubborn like this in matter of social stuff ?
Have you just see other IEI video , and contrast ?
Gilly the more I read you the more I think you stay influenced on the Fe defined in MBTI.

imo ILI is really likely

: ESE, EIE > IEI, SEI > ILE, SLE > EIE, LSE >

omg the nightmare continue...
2 Fe personnality placed on first ? Have you ever just one time meet ONE Fe guy IRL ? Do you really think that there is something of a beginning of correlation with beethoven personnality ?
Do you think beetoven is the one who was mastering at social stuff, and who was energized by this ?
I was hesitate beetween EII and ILI, but reading other stuff (like "pathetic HA" on wikisocion) and this bio seems to effectively toward ILI.

[The Ineffable]

omg the nightmare continue...
2 Fe personnality placed on first ? Have you ever just one time meet ONE Fe guy IRL ? Do you really think that there is something of a beginning of correlation with beethoven personnality ?
Do you think beetoven is the one who was mastering at social stuff, and who was energized by this ?
I was hesitate beetween EII and ILI, but reading other stuff (like "pathetic HA" on wikisocion) and this bio seems to effectively toward ILI.

You may ignore what I wrote, I'm interested in Jonathan's opinion. Your understanding is superficial and literal, I can't help you. Fe-Base types are not like you imagine, all happy and jumping around. Take for instance W Shakespeare and A ******, who are typed EIE and were very "introverted". Shakespeare is typed INFP in MBTI.
Socionics is not about social extroversion, learn the basics, every type is a model of psyche that determines a specific meta-mindset. First of all you are incapable to understand why an ILI would not behave like Beethoven behaved, so we can stop here.

And yes, Beethoven was energized by social stuff, his music in the first place, he was socially idealistic and also wanted to be recognized. He preferred to make something for a cause than for money. He was good at performing in front of an audience at 7. He could easily socialize and made a lot of acquaintences. He was also overly caring (even pushing with caring) with the others, including his brothers and nephews. He was acting on impulse and often quarreled with people just to make peace a while later. He was extravagand and dramatic, he was emphasizing everything, including his disgust of "fate" who "unfairly" made him, a musician, deaf.
Again, I have no typing on him yet, I may need to read some more detailed bios, but while I could indulge EII with a grain of salt, ILI is just ridiculous, you have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyLudwig.html
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/1-30-2005-65025.asp

[Gilly]

I don't know much about MBTI Fe.

ILI is a plausible typing for Beethoven.