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Thread: SLI-Te and ESE-Fe supervision (ISTp and ESFj)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syrup View Post
    I think this pretty much fits in what I was trying to say about LSIs and their social streak:


    The ISTj (LSI) internally strives towards stability, a world that does not change, relationships that do not change - logically beautiful and coherent, calculated, and well reasoned through. For this very reason ISTj's type of intellect - is most the socially oriented one. As the social orientation of this sociotype is determined by the very "program" function of his intellect - the logic of concrete systems (just as the method of its realization, at which this program is oriented - the volitional administrative pressuring).

    In its social mission, ISTj's logical program is meant to be an alternative to any sort of destabilization of his environment and surrounding structures: social, political, physical, biological, and so on.For this very reason, LSI's understanding of consistency, reasonableness, rationality is linked, first of all, to the organization of structural order (the "order of things") within the framework of some real, concretely existing system.


    Outside of the system the ISTj never examines anything - such is the type of his intellect. Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.

    Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.

    The meaning and essence of any event or phenomenon the ISTj understands through awareness of its "systematization", as if asking himself the question: this is an isolated occurrence, or it is attributable to some system? Is this an isolated act, or is this a model of behavior? Is this an accidental actions or motion, or is there some system of views and values behind it?

    To understand the inner essence of phenomena, to figure out and elucidate the cause-effect connections between phenomena of the most varied sort, to analyze the observed phenomena, to systematize the conclusions, to derive some more generalized definition and introduce it into an already existing system of views, to chose from all existing systems the one most suitable for achievement of specific goals and to improve it, to adapt this system to the specific social conditions, thinking it over and working through the smallest details - all of this is the sphere of on-going intellectual activity of any of the representatives of this type.

    Due to intrinsic peculiarities of this type of intellect, representatives of this type find it most natural to perceive their surrounding reality as a certain centralized system. ("One sun shines on us all, one God exists for us all, one Church on this earth, and the Pope is its deputy!") But even if such perception substantially limits the method and forms of LSI's thinking, at the same time it expresses the specific directivity of his type intellect, namely - its social orientation, the arrangement and distribution of forces in a social system.

    The ISTj never exists outside of the system of social relations, since the circle and the nature of his personal interrelations is already systematized
    in itself and takes a form of clear hierarchical subdivision, because this more easily fits into LSI's conception of the inherent "logical order of things". It is generally difficult for representatives of this type to consider or even imagine another point of view: it simply does not fit into their own set mental structure and their own system of views.

    Under no circumstances can the ISTj be "by himself", "thinking only for himself", "himself only for himself" - this contradicts the program of his intellect too much. (Which, similarly to the program of his dual ENFj (EIE), has a goal of living through uncertain times, creating and introducing order, and surviving under extreme conditions. For this very reason this sociotype is characterized by certain conformism and loyalty with respect to the existing regime, since the ISTj often attempts to find an application for himself within an existing ruling social system. Even if a representative of this type exists as some "antisocial" element, nevertheless he cannot be "by himself".For the LSI it is difficult to be a "lone wolf" - his intuition is insufficiently developed for this ; therefore, the LSI will for certain be organized within the framework some or another social structure, where he will fulfill all entrusted to him duties and hold the responsibility for his actions - another form of behavior for the LSI simply does not exist.)

    Due to the fact that representatives of this type consider themselves (and every other individual) to be a part of an existing system of relations, they consider any manifestation of individualism to be unacceptable for themselves, going beyond the framework of what is permissible, undermining and weakening the social foundations, and introducing chaos and anarchy into the existing order of things. Therefore they see a special social significance in such activities as creation and introduction of instructions, procedures, social and juridical laws, establishment of standards and norms. LSIs treat their work with much responsibility, and therefore they are usually quite successful at work and in their career.

    The distribution and arrangement of forces in a system, in LSI's opinion, must be logical, thoroughly reasoned, orderly, and fair. It must provide for a clear distribution of duties and corresponding measures of responsibility for these duties.

    Similarly to the INTj (LII), the ISTj considers it necessary to edify and guide the public consciousness, with orientation of this activity being directed at the purposes and goals of the existing social system. For this very reason, representatives of this type are characterized not only by a social, but also by an ideological orientation. It is also for this very reason that just like his dual the ENFj (EIE), the ISTj is distinguished by an active social position and points of view. Representatives of this type are inclined to see their social destiny in ideological and educational work, in bringing up the necessary, pre-defined social consciousness in the younger generations (examples: Alexei Maximovich Gorky and Anton Semyonovich Makarenko).

    The LSI considers the interchangeability of all of system's parts to be an indicator of high quality and viability of any system, as well as a guarantee of its stability. A person being a part of a social system must be interchangeable: in such conditions every person will be able to find his place in an already existing social system. And the system itself will be already be good by ensuring full occupation and employment to each person. (This state of things is especially convenient for the LSI in view of his weak intuition of possibilities.)

    In LSI's opinion, a perfect system must not have any unique, irreplaceable elements. In working associations there must not be any irreplaceable specialists, any clearly expressed individualists, since this creates inequality in interrelations, produces confusion and uncertainty, and for this very reason becomes dangerous for the vital activity of the entire collective in critical situation. (In this, LSI's critical attitude towards openly individualistic positions is demonstrated once again: a person can be a bright individual as much as he or she desires it, but this does not give the right to consider oneself irreplaceable.)

    LSI's thinking is very systematized. All that happens he attempts to explain from a logical point of view. (In logical issues and questions, it's not easy to convince the LSI otherwise or to confuse and throw him off his course.)

    The ISTj knows how to estimate the intellectual potential of his conversation partner, although his evaluation frequently tends to be critical. In debates the LSI tries to take the initiative - the last word must remain with him. (Sensor!)

    The ISTj magnificently well develops methods, calculates and compiles tables, graphics, textbooks, manuals, and so on.

    A good speaker and presenter, the ISTj presents material sequentially, in stages, so that the entire logical chain is easily traceable up to its final logical conclusion. When speaking before an audience, the LSI tends to pose questions and answer them himself.

    In expressing his point of view the LSI is quite pedantic. He will defend his system of views and values, expressing himself with extreme maximalism. It's not enough to say that the LSI relates with respect to the hierarchical social systems, where everyone needs to know his place: other systems he simply does not accept.

    In LSI's opinion, the behavior of a person needs to correspond to his position, otherwise public consciousness will be disoriented by models of the "unbecoming" behavior, which will lead to the destabilization of the social system. Respect for the authority - is one of the most important values of his intellectual structure. Orientation at authority - is an important motivation for many of his actions, that in many respects determine the nature of LSI's relationships and behavior.

    Gifted by nature with a phenomenal power of observation, the LSI thoroughly gathers and scrupulously processes factual bits of information, knowing how to find within the flow of information precisely what he needs. He is scrupulous and disapproves when some allegedly "unessential" minor facts get ignored or some seemingly insignificant errors in calculations are permitted - in this the ISTj is very specific and attentive.

    People who don't know how to logically present their thoughts, who get distracted by tangential issues from the main topic or subject matter, tend to irritate and annoy people of this type. The LSI is annoyed by a negligent attitude and treatment of formulations, confusions and mix-ups in terminology and in definitions, and, the most terrible - confusion and chaos in presentation of thought.

    2nd Function - Se Se Extraverted sensing
    A real and concrete logical program must be implemented by concrete methods, and what can be more real and concrete than the method of direct sensing effect?

    After appointing the ISTj as the theorist of concrete systems, nature has armed him with such a powerful tool as the flexible and manipulative volitional sensing - a willful, goal-oriented, real influence on his surroundings by means of keen awareness his own capability and power in space, his own significance, and the rightfulness of his volitional methods.

    Belonging to an actually existing public structures gives the ISTj a sense of his own social significance, which he sees in the service to the ideals of his system: he creates a theoretical basis for it and builds strong administrative structures that are fundamental and inviolable at all periods of time. (The main system can crumble, but its administrative apparatus can quickly undergo a reform and continue to function under another flag and other slogans.)

    The ISTj is distinguished by high exactingness towards both himself and towards people around him, and by intolerance of any kinds of manifestations of disorder within the framework of his system and any cultivation of anarchy and chaos within it.

    The ISTj sincerely admires such qualities as high work capability. The selfless labor for the good of society, for the good of the team or group - this is the norm of human activity, which is the only one allowed in a healthy and viable social system. And vice versa, any slackness, irresponsibility, and sloppiness undermine social foundations, lead a society to its weakening and destruction, to social calamities and catastrophes; therefore, the LSI considers that it is necessary to fight such manifestations by all means, without pity or any leniency.

    The ISTj is always ready to directly counter and fight any manifestations of disorder, incompetence, and irresponsibility in society. (For example, the LSI can spend much of his vacation time fighting the deficiencies in the system of hotel maintenance and nutrition, and later return home tired, worn out, but happy - one additional center of sloppiness has been liquidated by his efforts and now other vacationers can get full service.)

    Within the framework of ISTj's system there cannot be simply a group of people - there is a collective, united by common interests and organized hierarchically; irrespective of its membership count and the age of its members, there is always someone appointed to manage and lead it within the "entrusted area" ("commander of the unit", "supervisor of the floor", etc.). The volitional sensing of LSI, in contrast to the militant-moralizing volitional sensing of ESI (ISFj) and the administrative mob boss-like volitional sensing of SLE (ESTp), carries a militant-administrative nature (in view of the particularities of the dual dyad LSI-EIE). This partly explains why within the framework of LSI's social system a group of people becomes converted into a "unit", a "squad", or a "brigade".

    The ISTj can settle comfortably into any level of the social hierarchy. For the LSI the main thing is to occupy a place in this system. He or she can carry out any official work with the same zeal, and conduct his business relations in accordance to the occupied position: make demands of subordinates and try not to argue with his higher-ups. "The management knows better" - is an LSI phrase, and the argument: "I was only carrying out orders" - is the most convincing one. And it is incomprehensible to the ISTj how it's possible to dispute this. According to LSI's hierarchical logic, within his system the subordinates must obey those standing above them, and the young must obey the elders.**
    [**Editor's note: This is conditioned by LSI's particular form of thinking.]

    The ISTj tends to be politely strict in communication. Always disciplined, collected, neat, operative, responsible, and punctual: these qualities ideally correspond to the social function and motivations of sociotype LSI - work for the good of the social system.

    His home the LSI also views as an entrusted to him "area" within the system. Therefore, everything in his home becomes subordinated to the system's precise rules. The distribution of family budget, the behavior of the members of family - everything must be subjected to strict control and inspection. The concept of "the order of things" in LSI's household acquires special significance, in both literal and figurative sense - this does not only constitute a designated place for each thing, but also a specific place for each member of the family within the family hierarchy.

    ISTj's instrument of willful influence is a creatively used system of encouragements and punishments (the system of "whip and carrot"). Within the entrusted to him "area", the ISTj won't tolerate even the slightest resistance to his will. The shorter the personal distance, the stricter and harsher the measures of his willful influencing of others become.

    It is necessary to give the ISTj some credit in that before punishing anyone he typically explains why that person is being punished (it is necessary to edify and raise the consciousness of the member of the society), but if the "misdeed" is repeated all too often, then the LSI can punish without a warning. Moreover, the suddenness of his punishment is often unexpected and therefore frightening: "Music lessons were a real trial for me. They would start with my father carefully tuning the violin, neatly laying out the note sheets, and, most importantly, hanging his belt on the back of the chair. If I got distracted or played a false note, the belt fell directly on me ... However, after such lessons, my father was especially affectionate and put candy under my pillow ... He loved to say that many great musicians were trained by this same method ..."

    The ISTj loves to use verified tried-and-tested methods, especially if they agree with his own point of view and are known by him to bring positive results.

    ISTj's system of "encouragements and punishments" is constructed on contrasts of sensations, and in this, as any sensing type, the LSI is magnificently discerning - he knows what is real pain and what is real pleasure (and if he doesn't know this yet, then he may, from purely intellectual considerations, want to test this on himself or on others). It must be noted that this form of volitional influencing is meant, first of all, for mobilization and discipline of his dual, ENFj (EIE), for his weak, and sometimes quite inert sensing, which without an appropriate impulse does not "engage" and "start working". Not feelings confidence that he is being guided by a strong and firm hand, without the awareness of the fact that there are limits to all-permissiveness, without sharp contrasts in sensory impressions, the EIE feels poorly - he loses his vitality, his "inner rod", his support and orientation points, and begins to feel depressed and irritated, and starts to annoy other people, provoke them to quarrels, as if demanding that they would prove to him what they are capable of. The EIE respects strength and despises all weaklings and wimps; therefore he sufficiently quickly finds common language with the LSI, sensing in him a person and a partner who is worthy in every respect.

    Additionally, at this stage LSI's aspect of "sensing of sensations" (Si) gets turned on, which for the LSI is a demonstrative function that is realized unconsciously - and thus in correspondence to the changes in his moods. Thus, the LSI cannot always fully and consciously acknowledge why he suddenly wished to inflict pain and what motivated him to do this, since this wish arises in him almost instinctively and sufficiently often, at the signs of slightest irritation. Then, later, the LSI can come up with a logical basis for his actions and explain that he did this for educational purposes. If the LSI feels that he has overdone it with his volitional sensing methods, he will certainly try to find a way to make up for this and diminish his fault by a kind act.

    Etc etc, Strat description
    She's talking about society and systems, not about going out and socializing every weekend with friends. Very different things. It's more like having a role, a part to play, and knowing where you stand, not chit-chatting and showing off your car. . .


    --
    I also think Strat has some very odd views in general including her belief that all SEEs will cheat on their partners and steal other people's spouses and that all betas are so instinct, but the quality of her descriptions is a separate issue. Even with her biased viewpoint, she's not saying what you think she's saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    She's talking about society and systems, not about going out and socializing every weekend with friends. Very different things. It's more like having a role, a part to play, and knowing where you stand, not chit-chatting and showing off your car. . .


    --
    I also think Strat has some very odd views in general including her belief that all SEEs will cheat on their partners and steal other people's spouses and that all betas are so instinct, but the quality of her descriptions is a separate issue. Even with her biased viewpoint, she's not saying what you think she's saying.
    Any phenomenon is viewed by him as part of certain existing system, that is regulated by certain patters and laws and a certain logical order, understanding which the LSI considers to be his obligation.

    Perceiving his surrounding reality from the point of view of its systematization, logical design, and coherence, the ISTj is constantly analyzing the systems existing around himself - the system of logical and ethical interrelations, the systems of social structures, the system of views and opinions, the systems of life values.
    Exactly. She means what she means and words means what words means not what you would like it to say, subjectively.

    So I don't know what kind of interpretation you could give to these words.

    I should suppose that any phenomenon means to you "some phenomena" and it means that socialization is excluded by fact. Ok.

    In other words, LSIs value social systems and systematization of their surrounding reality, but dont value what society values, like for example, having a decent social life or having a nice car. Ok.

    The systematization of their surroundings can't include systematized friendships and acquaintances either. Ok.

    The social life of ppl doesnt make them know what role they play in society as a system or in micro systems (like school,work or groups etc). I don't know why you associate chit chat with friendships or anything either, btw.

    And finally you are right. Strat can be very impartial sometimes, especially in the relations descriptions. However, in terms of describing types behavior its pretty valuable.
    Last edited by Faith; 11-29-2017 at 09:58 PM.

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