Why I switched to mostly SCS added with my own takes for socionics, and a general ethic about typology

[Braingel]

I feel the need to make of this thread, as I am using now, a completely different socionics literature, which will affect my typings of forum members (like myself and godslave being EII, which most people have repulsed to).

First of all, I didn’t initially like scs, because I felt it was a joke with what I knew about socionics. I’d spent three years in western socionics (which tends revolve around the ideas of WSS, Filatova and Strateveskya primarily)… I still have mentally intuited the model and haven’t read much into it, but as k began to understand the model, I realized that it has takes that make a lot of sense, a primary one being the realm of conscious (mental) and unconscious (vital), where you have one of each of every dimensionality… I only skimmed a bit of John Beebe, but I intuited that they bleed into one another and reflect different variations of certain placements, without contradicting, of certain placements..

I began to realize how far superior this model was, to a superficial, observational system like WSS or Model G, that primarily bases on behavior. I do like the natural philosophy of G, but the type images are mostly a joke. DCNH gets used to justify horrid mistyped, with an obvious introvert being typed extroverted, or a sensor or intuitive having it justified they’re just “accentuated” closer to another.

This lead me into the making of my own metaphor; WSS and G are the foods one wants to eat and preoccupied with, and then how that food comes out in terms of behavior; the excretion/waste, and SCS is the digestive system in which that food actually processes and sends information within— regardless of behavior or the kind of food someone wants internalize. Then Carl Jung would be the mouth— the beginning of the digestive tract and salivary delights (western socio), that allowed food to come in and want eat to begin with.

People do not look at how an element is actually processing within a person. I have been typed extroverted, for instance, because, in one user’s exact words, I am “viscerally reactive”. It isn’t even that I was always this way, I became after this way with 15+ years of psychological abuse and chronic bullying (10 years it took for me to break, but I wasn’t even as unstable as I am now when I was 15), with added physical and sexual abuses and other forms of non-abusive trauma (occurring sporadically, not regularly as the former two forms of trauma). It wasn’t how I was as a little girl when healthier, before I had broken into my shadow/disintegrated self. It is more that with my inherent emotional sensitivity, that abuse and trauma had shaped me into being reactive— emotional sensitivity from being both autistic and female (autistic females have heightened emotional processing), and also being a highly sensitive individual— to where I developed a sort of borderline personality type cptsd. I had been diagnosed with BPD at age 17, but don’t believe I’ve it full-on, but rather traits reminiscent of this, under a complex press core.

Regardless of myself saying this, there are some out there who make typology primarily about their own ego and add their own confirmative bias in towards viewing myself and others, and would of this dismiss, having be “right” or naturally skeptical individuals.

Which brings me to an ethical side of typology.. I believe behavioral models are unethical when you are dealing with a psychiatric population, which is melt of this website and it is most of this community at general. When you base your typings primarily around behavior, or even just physically manifesting characteristics, like by how someone speaks, you truly do not know if there is a reason outside of typological scope for this.

An example with myself, would obviously be that I have complex ptsd and autistic spectrum disorder, but even with how I communicate, I had speech language pathologists beat out my inherent form of communication in symbols and metaphors at an average for 9 years.. And had gotten bullied profusely for this..

If you were viewing my natural form of communication I had as a child and prefer to use, and still do to those closest to myself, it would look like this:

What I wrote here on this thread:
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...Minds-Movement

What is my role is instilling the vision into the conscious of others that are capable of moving it, and also showing what will unfold and also making awareness with probing..


I cannot move it myself.


I don’t have force and momentum to push it into action..


My vision is like a pregnancy, as dramatic as it sounds, I need help pushing it out and willing it to outer life, and I can’t raise this child, my vision, on my own.


This is something that will need to be raised by thousands, if not millions, if it is to live a fulfilling life and grow to where it gives life and evolves into the conscious concept of society and gains eternal life throughout times.


Where it lives as concept, but this concept personifies longevity of life and spiritual connection, with what it in a mind comes alive to in their own life organisms of awareness and biome of a person..


Perhaps it is an infinite flow of water that condensates and evaporates and pours into a conscious orbits the earth, just as blood orbits a body, life cycles repeat and the earth turns its own cycle.


And it splashes outward into action and transfers over and soaks a mind and the cycle goes and maybe some drown in it, who don’t yet know how swim in the sea of their own intra conscious.


I can try teach others how to swim, but from afar and in spirit, even after I pass this earth it will be distant, but this isn’t my main role, this would be for one more interpersonally roaming who would notice to begin with, the others who drown.


And peoples’ time occupants are their boats amid the sea of time itself..


And their own emotions create the ripples and currents in an illusion, almost similarly, I didn’t think of, to how a moon sign goes to emotions.


Time is as illusory as is the sea, in that a body believes only in what is on earth and the water of the seas.. but you can also go in the air and defy water, with enough will, as was when one made airplanes.


Maybe it’s no coincidence a body is a “body of water”, itself, it reflects the illusions downcasted from earth w the inertia caging it illusory in, and the body only knows what it has by earth and its instincts…


I believe 85% or more is water..


And time moves the body of water itself each second it allows it to cycle to a sequence of body cycles.


I am the evaporation of the cycle, or well, water fell in through my own emotions and splashed my conscious from my unconscious.. and now I arise the water to condensate the awareness into earth and to soak minds aware..


I was a designed dam by the divine, to which my own emotions and experiences entrapped water and made of me have this and my vision and the heat of my own heart and mind to make it go up into the air to be seen by the world.


I was made with life experiences and cognition and a deep emotional intensity for depth that made this dam run deep and then splash right up into my conscious of the water that has pooled my unconscious and awoke on this day and it’s overtime splashed up and now, it has all in a pour effect, but from splashing, made a reflection of what is my life purpose and I am in it swimming only… for now until it goes up.. and overtime the water filled and with the conditions that reflected this view my conscious had as a revelation.


Well, I didn’t awake on this day, a few weeks ago..


(Had replies as a continuation of water being 85% or more): Not only this, the water flows in a cycle that follows the orbit of a clock as it repeats daily..


It changes direction sometimes, but the overall.


The earth is round, like is also, a clock, and a brain itself is not exactly the shape, but the concept..

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...32e43fb0a5f36&

And what I had written to my boyfriend and he typed it out to preserve of it:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...3f4fc6892b015&

And then I interpreted my imagery..

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...b4f4fd3bd0d1f&

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...d1a7317e0ff22&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...f7140258b76e4&

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...2cd0ef1886829&

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...552cdbc14345a&

If you were to read my “notes” pad/app on my iPhone, it would also show of this, the things my boyfriend had typed out to me of my own stream of conscious imagery and metaphors I was spewing on a Facebook call.. My boyfriend adores this in me, and I can go without restraint. It would also be as chaotic and arising as it goes, cascading into each thought, which others notoriously irritate from me, western process types are trying make me a process type or rational and restrict my spontaneous, disorganized style of communication with floods and swarms of messages.

One example of my notepad from 2022, they don’t make sense and it’s a stream of conscious pull, and I spelt wrong bc I was in the stream, some of them: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...666578a32b857&



I have gotten self-conscious about typing in this way to the wrong people and at public, now.
My special ed Eval in third grade called it “statements” that are “formal” and bear “maturity”https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4a7d2bbedc566&.. Because it is unusual, I suppose for an 8 year old child to be going around spewing such profound metaphors and mental imagery and symbolisms to her peers and adults.

I have had people not think me an Ni base in western because I now communicate lesser of my stream of conscious symbols, when it’s very much there and I profess things in a 4D Ni way in my unconscious (vital), but I do not as much reveal such things to the public in this way now, unless it has do with a prophecy or vision I have, like with my moving minds movement..

My point is observational typology wouldn’t catch this and would assume I am some cautious Ni type then (extrovert, be it Ni creative or Ni 1D). When you rely on what’s just “present”, you don’t know if there’s an underlying reason as to why it shows as it does, not bothering perceive the core, and so make an assumption from confirmative basis and the halo effect.

All in all, though, people need realize my typings won’t match others’ very often, because I am working with a literature that largely overlooks behavior. Behavior amasses maybe only 30% for this way I am typing.

[necrosebud]

skimming the SCS descriptions the essence of the functions were the same as what I got from reading other socionics lit tbh

[necrosebud]

I mean I can understand where you might be coming with the EII for yourself

I don't really agree with the cognition/behavior distinction because to me behavior seems indicative of cognition (you are extremely singularly focused - intuitively/ideationally speaking) which to a degree sure could align with EII but you have chemistry/get along with, at least in my eyes, Se types, and definitely Ti types.

[Braingel]

skimming the SCS descriptions the essence of the functions were the same as what I got from reading other socionics lit tbh

The biggest distinction would be the mental and vital track, where some functions are conscious and others aren’t.. I wouldn’t be a conscious Fe, Ni or Te type.. I would type as an IEI otherwise in that model.. Also fit contact Fi. I wouldn’t have conscious dynamic elements..

I lack:

Si awareness of space (I run into things and can take up a lot of space)..

Fe awareness of my own impact on moods and conscious control of my emotional expression

Ni: whilst powerful, my awareness of my time sense and internal sphere is unconscious

Te: I have no conscious of being productive or my own weakness in this and don’t yearn to improve of it

[necrosebud]

The biggest distinction would be the mental and vital track, where some functions are conscious and others aren’t.. I wouldn’t be a conscious Fe, Ni or Te type.. I would type as an IEI otherwise in that model.. Also fit contact Fi. I wouldn’t have conscious dynamic elements..

I lack:

Si awareness of space (I run into things and can take up a lot of space)..

Fe awareness of my own impact on moods and conscious control of my emotional expression

Ni: whilst powerful, my awareness of my time sense and internal sphere is unconscious

Te: I have no conscious of being productive or my own weakness in this and don’t yearn to improve of it

what about Fi and Ne then

[Braingel]

what about Fi and Ne then

I am conscious of my attraction and repulsion to objects and relations with this mean, and try and get closer towards others (Fi+/expansion).. And Ne is about awareness when mental, of an object’s essence and underlying hidden properties and potential, which I am conscious of.. I am conscious of reading how I can “manipulate” bonds, I don’t mean deceptive manipulation, I mean manipulation in terms of influence in this context (Fe and Fi types both manipulate/influence with emotional means, in different ways. Fe is with mood and expression. I am not aware of mine even though I can, it’s unconscious. I am aware of my own distance relationally and how I can influence someone relative to where I stand with them).

I know, in western, this would be some of Ni. Internal content and grasping of an object is Ni in many conceptions.

[necrosebud]

I mean I don't know if I have ever seen Ni defined without the dimension of time in scionics as thats crucial to it

everything else is vague peripheral without that at the core, you could argue its Ne or Ni or whatver

also, meant to ask, what do you mean by the the phrase "the chosen prophet"

[Braingel]

I mean I don't know if I have ever seen Ni defined without the dimension of time in scionics as thats crucial to it

everything else is vague peripheral without that at the core, you could argue its Ne or Ni or whatver

also, meant to ask, what do you mean by the the phrase "the chosen prophet"

I named myself this as a half joke and a half truth. I will be a spiritual luminary to humanity with my visions and will bring about societal healing and reformation… Yes, this would fit beta NF in sociological influenced systems. My social mission would fit Ni+ specifically.

I don’t believe I am a messiah or anything, but I am gifted in some ways and have a purpose of restoration to society and nature and of spirit.

[Braingel]

The only thing stopping me from typing iei there is mental/vital.. I am not asking that others type me eii in western, especially without a shadow model. But I do ask that I am not typed eie or see because those aren’t reasonable typings in any model. I also do fit the +/- of an eii more than an iei in that specific model… They aren’t the same definitions of G’s +/-.

Given that the mental and vital track has do immensely with ego blocks and with the other dichotomies in that system, it is arguably the most important dynamic aside from the elements their own self. It is the heart of the system and the functions are the parts in which it takes form.

[necrosebud]

I will say I’m skeptical of the Si and Te seeking

I can’t verbalize the two well at all but I am sort beginning to wonder about Si as a general feeling of physio-psychological well being or homeostasis

you also do not seem to have a poor understanding of Se “play” so Se related cognition which almost makes it seem valued. Like you seem to metabolize and engage with this information well

I’m not insisting you’re this or that type just some thoughts

[Braingel]

Hm, Se in scs has do with scientific thinking, physically apparent traits and their nuanced detail and with volition. And also, an EII has this as mental, so it’s more aware of it than an IEI is, it is just fixated on and is weak.

[necrosebud]

I think SCS has completely butchered Aushra’s original description of the information elements so I’ll leave it at that https://classicsocionics.wordpress.com/augusta-imes/

(nothing about scientific thinking)

I understand empiricism in it’s sort of caricaturish/archetypal form is super SeTe I get that

maybe that’s where the idea is coming from

I should correct myself to say Austria’s descriptions align with what I know of socionics (again skimming I haven’t read every single thing) and SCS in my view has misinterpreted her

[Braingel]

I mean, it isn’t that I take every single thing about scs as accurate, and I have intuited the model rather than studied it vast, I learn through skim and filling gaps.. But I believe the entire concept of unconscious and conscious and of how the functions inform outlooks internally and register and form beliefs, is very much a good thing to go by. I don’t agree for instance, that a base or 4D has to accept social norms for functions.. That has do with attachment enneagram in my opinion.

But yes, any Fe ego type would be incorrect for me in this model, with the mental and vital set up, I am not conscious of moods and cannot consciously control and act on my emotions and moods, play them up.

[Braingel]

Believe me, I was skeptical when I was being typed as an EII by a guy…. And I didn’t just accept the typing because I was vibe typed and written a few reasons as for it, things clicked, and I filled in my own impressions, and I learn that fast from filling in with minimal exposure. I will provide his reasoning. (I am going to post this now, so the page doesn’t refresh and I don’t feel like having to copy and paste this in note pad or discord and then have to get the font back to normal which is hard.. So this will take a process to write out and get all the quotes, if you don’t see them, check back in fifteen or twenty minutes).

Quotes are from Capitan unless otherwise specified it’s me:

Statics talks about dynamics things a LOT as they are from theirs ID and super ID, their personal sensations. And isn’t an view about society.. Is about themselves. The mental ring uses society as comparison, the vital is the opposite.. So talking about how your emotional state a lot indivifually, could be ID.

(Emotions would be Fe)

I have a lot more to quote, so if you’re reading this now, you’re gonna have come back..

Plus You explained an Fi thing pretty good for me. On this explanation u used your own thinking aligned with societal thinking too.

Also ic you collecting Ti data to understand your position of power in your place, with your family, and mentalizing about it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...646cea63418f9&

First u talk about your feelings, and how serious this may be to u
Sounds vital and also ID, as u treat this as serious manner
The second u literally use TI-Se to explain your condition.
Appears smt you absorbed from the super ego.

When Capitan wrote this analysis of myself, I rapidly intuited how the model works and didn’t need study anything. And I intuited myself that mental is conscious, vital is unconscious, and I intuited other things. I’ve read very little of scs, only thing I’ve read is that PDF of how they define their functions.

My own note: I would also be Ti role super ego, as I am very suggestive and open to where things place, I often say that everything has its own place, even without being as acutely good at this placement focus. It filters into my higher elements..

Sometbing he had said when I was highly skeptical about being anything but IEI:

You try to be expansive on relations all the time sharing about yourself with a lot of ppl. Also, you exposes yourself a lot like Se+, as is the way they try to be seen by everyone. In the server is very clear this both things on u.. I would bet would be between EIE and SEI, maybe EII too

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5883ab34d1d28&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...0c9ad8e5665ae&

Even though I provided a screen shot in the quote of what he analyzed and broke down that is “TiSe” super ego of me, I will quote it.

This is something I’d written:

“With the whole she is going to get herself killed” crap.. No, you guys truly do not know. You do not know how I reached the conclusion about my BF. It involves things science cannot prove, and I do not want to discuss them, because it will lead to more invalidation and dismissal of me, which makes me hurt and bleed emotionally, and why I only reserve it to people whom I feel would appreciate it. If I stay here, I am already going to commit suicide or get even more physically sick than I have already become. It is not like I haven’t tried other things.

I have tried a lot of things, but my situation is so bad.. With my family’s social status, their wealth, my psychological history since I have been 13.. That I cannot even just go to police.. I have tried many shelters, I have been in many 18-25 shelters, I have been waitlisted for the very few that are longer and they never returned, I have tried getting into 3 monasteries, I tried getting into a boarding school whilst I was under 21, I lived with my grandpa for sometime, who is emotionally abusive, but is better than immediate family, when he was able.. I am disabled. I had been offered places by numerous people online, and never took them, because I was afraid of rape and shit, but so had such profound spiritual things with this, and I am so desperate for others to see what has actually gone on, and have do something drastic and extreme to get that.

The logic of it being TiSe super ego, would I suppose be that I am fixating on social placement and material/physical illusion, pointing out how others can’t see the essence (Ne), and feeling stressed by the Se illusion.. And that my own outlook of TiSe is immature and low dimensionality. A higher Ti and Se type probably would r get as tapped, that’s be able use their volition to push and make happen, and would know how to manipulate power dynamics. My own outlook with it is self-defeating and restrictive, as rather than be able to push a way with volition and with making an illusion of appearance of myself being more able to rise and get out, not being nuanced or good in these areas, I can’t do it and am “stuck”.

Money also has do with Se largely in scs and I was fixating on.. Basically all Se things, they restricted myself, an ego for instance, would be able push past it and with how scs believes it in their attachment ish way, adapt with those standards and just beat it in. I don’t believe it’s how it works for everything, but a base or 4D probably could understand the reasons for the social norms (since they grasp the element), maybe they just don’t have to agree with them all.

Something unrelated to what Capitan had analyzed, but my Fe even in that would be ID, self-serving, not for societal gain.

But you see, an IEI or even EIE would never have this kind of awareness. They’d be fixating on TeSi instead…. in their mental super egoic block. The outlooks from my functions in how I register info have resulted in them to shape me this way… What Q was complaining about myself essentially was my 4 core and my TiSe super ego self-defeating me from being able to keep up with the societal illusion and appearance to make it not look like I need conserving. And my own social placement within it and fixating on this status. When he said he felt need to correct me but wasn’t aware, that would be because he has vital Ti and Se in placements in his own ID and super Id block (self-serve, which is why he had continued for his own pleasure towards myself in spite it not benefiting me or anyone).

He had chided me on Te elements with a super egoic focus with it.. Mental and aware of that part, which is why his criticisms had been infused with the Te and projecting his own super ego unto myself. Then taking up less space than myself, because of mental Si base ego. But the primary motivators in that feud were his ID Se, super ID Ti and Te polr super ego. With me, it was my fixation on TiSe and my status with it, which fuels into my 4 core of me having to be acknowledged for my own suffering and sympathized with it. Vital ID Fe was making me bleed and hemorrhage with me unaware of my impact, to point others wanted me banned and were furious, and I wasn’t even aware…. And was expressing it in an ID self-serve way. When he said he was perfecting his own model (Ti), it was the whole super Id wanting approval ordeal happening, just like I want approval on my Si comforting others with essential oils, and dreamed of making a holistic space when 18 to heal others and be rendered a gifted healer, with my own placement.

This is what I mean, when I say that SCS is much more profound…. it goes far more into the digesting of functions, how they motivate before coming out and form outlooks relative to their strength.. Whether someone is aware or unaware (motivational).

It has far more clinical potential, and to make you more aware of where you naturally aren’t (your ID and super ID vital track).

People appear to forget that the ego blocks are an integral part of all socionics, they’ve been excluded by behavioral and archetypal models like G and like WSS.. Other than maybe the suggestive for WSS..

[necrosebud]

I meannnn again I haven’t looked deeply into it but for a school that claims going back to original Aushra and then putting … what was it, well scientific thinking under Se, and adhering to structure for Ne (??) when I don’t see that in the purported original IE descriptions by Aushra I’d be skeptical of the whole model

and it is relevant because you are essentially flipping the same tendencies to mean something entirely diff in a diff system, not that’s I can’t see the rationale for EII generally

[godslave]

I meannnn again I haven’t looked deeply into it but for a school that claims going back to original Aushra and then putting … what was it, well scientific thinking under Se, and adhering to structure for Ne (??) when I don’t see that in the purported original IE descriptions by Aushra I’d be skeptical of the whole model

and it is relevant because you are essentially flipping the same tendencies to mean something entirely diff in a diff system, not that’s I can’t see the rationale for EII generally

Description of Phenomenon

SCS

SWS

SHS

Internal Content & Structure	Ne	Ti	Ti
Potential	Ne	Ne	Ne
Mental Skills, Abilities	Ne	Ti / Ne	Ne
Physical Skills / Strength	Ne	Se	Se
Underlying Essence & Nature	Ne	Ni	-
Cultural / Spiritual Composition	Ne	Ni	-
Adherence to a Structure, even if called “System” (Like Typology)	Ne	Ti	Ti
Open/Close Mindedness	-	Ne	Ti

Source

Now, there is a consensus about "Potential" being of Ne Information Aspect/Element

However, there is disagreement between schools when it comes to information about Internal structure, Physical Skills/Strength, and of coursethat infamous "Adherence to a structure" stuff which seems to cover too much for it to be exclusive to Ne and therefore overlaps with other Information aspects domains .

Now, Information about Internal structure of objects (framed like this) sounds almost like the very definition of that IE but the word "structure" is very connotative and evokes Ti in the typology community.

The internal elements – , , , and , cover information about intangible features of the object and its interactions that aren’t tangible or explicit, often being “hidden” within objects.

Source

However, the words "Structure" and "Potential" together seems to me like Ti-Ne blocked together. Beside If an Ne lead (Ego 4D Ne) person comes across a previously unknown object, let's say a perfect white flying sphere about 10 times the size of a soccer ball, what 4D information about its internal structure could that person bring that would be more complete than a 3D Ne person for example ?

Edit : Also that structure Adherence thing seems to clashe with IEE types and their Ti PolR.

[necrosebud]

ofc it evokes "Ti"; I thought it very self evident so I did not mention it

...are you siggesting that I might be limited in my understanding of Ne (3D 4D stuff) and hence might not understand the adherence to structure stuff is coming from?

[necrosebud]

quoting alive here seems pretty apt

These descriptions seem pretty awful. What does Ti have to do with respect, fear, distancing from fights, power, hierachy? It analyzes subjective, impersonal relationships between systems which can give a person the ability to reduce complex systems down to the essentials. It's also very structural, placing objects in a designated category, and strives to understand why structures exist (their subjective connections) How Ne is 'adhering to structures" makes also no sense. It also has nothing to do with spirituality. Se perceives concrete, objective reality with the senses. the fuck does this have to do with scientific thinking?

[godslave]

ofc it evokes "Ti"; I thought it very self evident so I did not mention it

Yes of course I know that you know ! I just mentioned it because I wanted to put in my post even the obvious stuff that would not necessarily be that obvious for people who will read that post in the future

...are you siggesting that I must be limited in my understanding of Ne (3D 4D stuff) and hence might not understand the adherence to structure stuff is coming from?

I would never do that ! No, It had nothing to do with you personally, I was just making some observations that in fact aligned with your point of view on the "Structure"/Ne matter.

I have the feeling that you are half joking (at least that is what I prefer to think cuz I would feel very guilty if I indeed triggered you in some way in which case I would ask for your forgiveness )

[necrosebud]

Not triggered per se just wanted to clarify since it’s tone is not evident online, i was not sure I understood the purpose of the crystal ball dimensional Ne thing you mentioned

[godslave]

Not triggered per se just wanted to clarify since it’s tone is not evident online, i was not sure I understood the purpose of the crystal ball dimensional Ne thing you mentioned

I was a bit making fun of the idea of knowing what's inside the object (white sphere in my example). Plus the crystal ball is a sphere. Plus that character ressemble Aushra, That was a perfect combo in terms of humour !

There is no way to know what's "inside the box" we can only speculate about it that was the point.

Also IEE who are Ne Dom (and SEE to a certain degree) notoriously struggle in adhering to a given structure which would clash with the Idea about it being of Ne exclusively (and incidentally is one the reason why LSI and IEE are conflicors ).

[Kurt Gabin]

Don't you want to be a SLE? It seems for me that only people valuing Ti can so seriously discuss the differences between models and "schools" instead of directly working with what they describe.

[Distance]

mr provocateur aka Reality Denialist is between 2 types. There is a lot of Fi devaluing but it appears to be ignoring. There is also a lot of Ne in framing theory, speculation is a tantamount word for it, tons of it, but Fe is coupled with Se, Se is not a role, it is making his Si a PoLR, not a seeking sojourn in that ENTp type.

One can be between 2 in a neurodiverse setting, so you have a hybrid ENFj and ENTp here.

He has the Fe punch, and lacks the insecurity of low Fi in an Fe agenda push., if you notice.

Also there is too much speculation for an EIE, it seems at the foreground, where the ethical type usually reaches for it as a tool.

I see the OP driven in Ti here as an agenda, via in ego lusts for clarity.

I might be between 2 types myself with stronger Ni than the usual stripe. I feel like it anyway. Like in the middle somewhere.

[Enters Laughing]

@Braingel
It's probably against the code of conduct for qualified psychologists to publicly classify someone by Socionics without their permission, and without the individual being their patient, even if Socionics is valid.

[Braingel]

Description of Phenomenon

SCS

SWS

SHS

Internal Content & Structure	Ne	Ti	Ti
Potential	Ne	Ne	Ne
Mental Skills, Abilities	Ne	Ti / Ne	Ne
Physical Skills / Strength	Ne	Se	Se
Underlying Essence & Nature	Ne	Ni	-
Cultural / Spiritual Composition	Ne	Ni	-
Adherence to a Structure, even if called “System” (Like Typology)	Ne	Ti	Ti
Open/Close Mindedness	-	Ne	Ti

SourceNow, there is a consensus about "Potential" being of Ne Information Aspect/ElementHowever, there is disagreement between schools when it comes to information about Internal structure, Physical Skills/Strength, and of coursethat infamous "Adherence to a structure" stuff which seems to cover too much for it to be exclusive to Ne and therefore overlaps with other Information aspects domains . Now, Information about Internal structure of objects (framed like this) sounds almost like the very definition of that IE but the word "structure" is very connotative and evokes Ti in the typology community. SourceHowever, the words "Structure" and "Potential" together seems to me like Ti-Ne blocked together. Beside If an Ne lead (Ego 4D Ne) person comes across a previously unknown object, let's say a perfect white flying sphere about 10 times the size of a soccer ball, what 4D information about its internal structure could that person bring that would be more complete than a 3D Ne person for example ?

Edit : Also that structure Adherence thing seems to clashe with IEE types and their Ti PolR.

I think their logic in saying adherence to structure would go with Ne may have do with not only the internal content going to Ne in this model, but also perhaps partially because all Ne mental have Ti mental, and so an IEE and SEE in this system would fixate on Ti…

I don’t necessarily agree with how they define all of their elements. Physical skills I guess would have come maybe by the potential they bring, but physical skills can also just flat out be Se, of course.

It isn’t that SCS is a perfect model, but neither are model G or WSS… I think this model is overall better

[Braingel]

I will make an analogy, from a realization I had before, about how overtime, these systems make building blocks to build the house of the real typology school. The reason why typology isn’t as seriously taken yet, by many, is because it is only just still building. There are stones within each system that will come in the future and that bear in past models, that are of accuracy. You have a need to gather these and build them to stand and fit them into the master system… There are things accurate and inaccurate in every system, and this takes years to cultivate.. Maybe one day, typology will be broadly accepted by scientists, but people are still trying redefine definitions.. The system is being experimented with in varied ways… And some things are real, and you can take those things and add them into a master system..

Typology is a wide open door, with not even it able to function closed yet in completion..

Different functions focus on different elements, to where you need all 8 functions in the formation of it all… It has mostly been Ne, because it is where the ideas birth from.. Now it appears that some are trying refine an Se and Si part of typology with physical appearance and whatnot (subjective interrogation Si, and concrete observation, objectivity, Se). There needs an Fi refining of ITR and then Te and Se will take this to science and try make it empirical.. Ni will give the vision for how it can be of importance and Ti already was with the Ne.. Fe would go with Ni.

[Braingel]

Don't you want to be a SLE? It seems for me that only people valuing Ti can so seriously discuss the differences between models and "schools" instead of directly working with what they describe.

In this model I am working with, there is no such thing as “valued” or “unvalued”; it is only mental/vital. And an EII in this model would have mental Ti— cognizant Ti, in a super egoic spot, where the Ti is heavily open to almost like a suggestive kind of..

Working with… I guess would be sort of static types in this model, because they have dynamic unconscious elements that make them take the action, but lower dimensionality Te and Se wouldn’t be as directly active in an empirical type of way..

[godslave]

I think their logic in saying adherence to structure would go with Ne may have do with not only the internal content going to Ne in this model, but also perhaps partially because all Ne mental have Ti mental, and so an IEE and SEE in this system would fixate on Ti…

Indeed, ILE and IEE they produce relations between objects.

Someone who perceives (accepts) information about the object is inevitably also interested in the relations between objects. They are all the more interested in their own logical place among those objects, i.e. their real relations with them. However, someone who accepts all information about objects does not receive enough information about relations, even though relations are just as much a part of objective reality as objects themselves. Extravertizing blocks produce this reality (relations), i.e. they create relations themselves.
The producing element of the IEE’s Superego provides an answer as to what the relations between various objects, including the perceiving subject, presumably are or should be. These conclusions automatically follow from the information that ends up on this block. The IEE themself is only active in gathering the information; the conclusion, how correct it is, and how objective it is, is determined by the quantity and quality of the information on the Superego. In the mind of the IEE relations between objects are a derivative of these objects’ qualities.

Source

That said, there is nothing mentioned above about the internal structure of said objects.

I don’t necessarily agree with how they define all of their elements. Physical skills I guess would have come maybe by the potential they bring, but physical skills can also just flat out be Se, of course.

Yes, I would say that this one is less controversial. If we consider just the physique of the object that would be Se but if one think about the potential that object could be used for then it's Ne. Now the concept of "skill" applied to an inanimate (static) object doesn't make sense. However when applied to people it makes more sense. But to evaluate the skill of a person one must have an idea of what that person is capable of and to perceive that the subject must be in some kind of motion otherwise it would be very difficult to assess a particular skill (unless it's the skill to be immobile for a very long time(?)).

It isn’t that SCS is a perfect model, but neither are model G or WSS… I think this model is overall better

Indeed, as long as there is a solid method to identify the type (other than "trust me bro"). Irina Eglit came up with the method and should be more credited for her tremendous contribution imho. V.D. Ermak 's SSS is my favorite for that reason. I consider SSS as a classic socionics school too.

[Braingel]

Indeed, ILE and IEE they produce relations between objects.



Source

That said, there is nothing mentioned above about the internal structure of said objects.




Yes, I would say that this one is less controversial. If we consider just the physique of the object that would be Se but if one think about the potential that object could be used for then it's Ne. Now the concept of "skill" applied to an inanimate (static) object doesn't make sense. However when applied to people it makes more sense. But to evaluate the skill of a person one must have an idea of what that person is capable of and to perceive that the subject must be in some kind of motion otherwise it would be very difficult to assess a particular skill (unless it's the skill to be immobile for a very long time(?)).




Indeed, as long as there is a solid method to identify the type (other than "trust me bro"). Irina Eglit came up with the method and should be more credited for her tremendous contribution imho. V.D. Ermak 's SSS is my favorite for that reason. I consider SSS as a classic socionics school too.

This was supposed to be in my reply to you, but the website had acted up. It even posted it but doesn’t show now: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8b68f07894a5f&

The mental and vital track and emphasis of the ego blocks are very good..


Overall, though, yes, I believe that SCS is superior to other models. I have mostly intuited the system and haven’t studied in vast. But with what I know, I only disagree with a few things, for instance, physical skills can be Se, internal content can be Ni and maybe Ti. I said I don’t necessarily agree with the social norm part, and believe enneagram can have a hand in this. This belief the system had is a very attachment ish core/double fix one, and I don’t agree with it fully at all, even though I understand that probably, if you have a base or 4D of an element, you will probably be able grasp the why behind the social norm.. They do believe you can push beyond the social norm and make it your own too, though, so.. When they mean for society, it can also just mean that it’s accepted/produced in a way to impact others and not merely the self.


You are definitely an IEi or EII in this model, and your deliberation of humor could possibly be Fe mental and you fit dynamic, however, I also just did see a lot of mental Se in what you said, with the whole “she is reminiscent of Aushura” and whatnot, I am still leaving EII as more of a likelihood, and just Fi+>Fi-..

I prefer psychological systems.. Whilst socionics can argue as sociological, all sociology stems from inside processing and bias.. Even when a group of persons act in a racist way for an instance, on physical observation, it would have do with a belief they formed, and also they are focusing more on the appearance for a reason to begin with. For this reason, they can’t divorce.

[Braingel]

Indeed, ILE and IEE they produce relations between objects.



Source

That said, there is nothing mentioned above about the internal structure of said objects.




Yes, I would say that this one is less controversial. If we consider just the physique of the object that would be Se but if one think about the potential that object could be used for then it's Ne. Now the concept of "skill" applied to an inanimate (static) object doesn't make sense. However when applied to people it makes more sense. But to evaluate the skill of a person one must have an idea of what that person is capable of and to perceive that the subject must be in some kind of motion otherwise it would be very difficult to assess a particular skill (unless it's the skill to be immobile for a very long time(?)).




Indeed, as long as there is a solid method to identify the type (other than "trust me bro"). Irina Eglit came up with the method and should be more credited for her tremendous contribution imho. V.D. Ermak 's SSS is my favorite for that reason. I consider SSS as a classic socionics school too.

Well, in SCS, both an IEE and SEE would fixate a lot on Ti. It is a mental super egoic spot in a perfection placement. They’d replace their Ti incompetence with Fi, mistaking their own self as using Ti, when it is Fi they are actually, so it would become a matter of their own attraction or repulsion to this object they attempt Ti on (haha I described my own inner process with these exact words— attraction/repulsion without a knowing that’s how classical defines Fi)..

They are very interested in Ti, yes. Contrary to western’s whole view on the polr, you actually move towards your polr and try and perfect it, and it can cause a great deal of stress still. It is the suggestive function that isn’t as suck out, which it is in western so this would throw off a lot of people. It is far more likely for a beta NF to be delta NF in classical for this reason alone.. You try and move towards Se and Te more in a delta NF position.. This has do with the whole mental/vital and the ego blocks, super ego is something that is projected of importance in a place of hypocrisy (in this mean that it isn’t even good in the self).

[anotherperson]

really glad to see someone else warming up to classic socionics

the W/G stereotypes have really gotten out of hand

[Braingel]

@Braingel
It's probably against the code of conduct for qualified psychologists to publicly classify someone by Socionics without their permission, and without the individual being their patient, even if Socionics is valid.

Hm, maybe in Russia where there are universities on socionics, but since socio is deemed pseudoscientific, it is unlikely it would be prohibited. If it became a meme serious mean, most certainly, this would occur, but you of course still see this happen. Unfortunately, many professionals still abuse psychiatric labels— tons of therapists and professionals armchairing people with things like personality disorders or trying suggest what people a client reports to them could have.. It should be a suggestion in that case, but they can declare it affirmatively.

This is an inevitability though; people will abuse labels regardless of what label it is, with the current level of societal health..

I can’t think of a mature psychologist doing this, but many professionals come in with their own baggage and unload what’s packed in sessions, be it consciously or unconsciously, especially the ladder is more frequent.

[Braingel]

mr provocateur aka Reality Denialist is between 2 types. There is a lot of Fi devaluing but it appears to be ignoring. There is also a lot of Ne in framing theory, speculation is a tantamount word for it, tons of it, but Fe is coupled with Se, Se is not a role, it is making his Si a PoLR, not a seeking sojourn in that ENTp type.

One can be between 2 in a neurodiverse setting, so you have a hybrid ENFj and ENTp here.

He has the Fe punch, and lacks the insecurity of low Fi in an Fe agenda push., if you notice.

Also there is too much speculation for an EIE, it seems at the foreground, where the ethical type usually reaches for it as a tool.

I see the OP driven in Ti here as an agenda, via in ego lusts for clarity.

I might be between 2 types myself with stronger Ni than the usual stripe. I feel like it anyway. Like in the middle somewhere.

This just sounds like the benefit ring lean theory.. ILE and EIE lean into one another, and IEI and LII lean into one another.. I am an IEI in G and in western..

[Braingel]

Well, in SCS, both an IEE and SEE would fixate a lot on Ti. It is a mental super egoic spot in a perfection placement. They’d replace their Ti incompetence with Fi, mistaking their own self as using Ti, when it is Fi they are actually, so it would become a matter of their own attraction or repulsion to this object they attempt Ti on (haha I described my own inner process with these exact words— attraction/repulsion without a knowing that’s how classical defines Fi)..

They are very interested in Ti, yes. Contrary to western’s whole view on the polr, you actually move towards your polr and try and perfect it, and it can cause a great deal of stress still. It is the suggestive function that isn’t as suck out, which it is in western so this would throw off a lot of people. It is far more likely for a beta NF to be delta NF in classical for this reason alone.. You try and move towards Se and Te more in a delta NF position.. This has do with the whole mental/vital and the ego blocks, super ego is something that is projected of importance in a place of hypocrisy (in this mean that it isn’t even good in the self).

How I imagine this working would be their own feelings are their laws, so they probably do things like choose favorites and let others get away with rules and others not, relative to how much they’re liked.. Some LSI or LII would clash this likely.. But they are open to it in a way with their role as Fi.

[Distance]

How I imagine this working would be their own feelings are their laws, so they probably do things like choose favorites and let others get away with rules and others not, relative to how much they’re liked.. Some LSI or LII would clash this likely.. But they are open to it in a way with their role as Fi.

It sounds right.

Please look at my post: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1591450

[SacredKnowing]

But I got the crystal ball!

[necrosebud]

You could also look into IEI-C if you haven’t already

[necrosebud]

I’m not quite sure how to phrase this don’t mean it in a bad way per se but you seem to have an almost… sort of endless capacity for … dry mentalizing

[Braingel]

You could also look into IEI-C if you haven’t already

IEI-C was what I thought of myself being in model G… (With an alt of IEE-H).. I wouldn’t know, as I’ve not studied dcnh in vast, but I often get typed harmonizing.. I don’t honestly believe I’m a double IP.. But it’s not that I even like Model G or DCNH much, because the ladder often justifies mistyping..

I have been seriously moving away from most socio schools, because I detest how vapid and superficial they are, relying on surface behavior and qualities… Call it an enneagram 4 not wanting associate in the superficiality, but it’s more nuanced than of this, I genuinely don’t believe that it says anything meaningful about cognition, maybe it can enhance relations slightly, but it often does a reversal of this and justifies exclusion of a person on an assumption there’s no benefit of interacting.

The way model G is set up, or just how people approach typing in general, looking for surface traits like reactivity or just by the “way” someone types is how you get mistyping of me like EIE and like that one ridiculous SEE typing….. And they use others as a comparison basis that is biased. It doesn’t even look how info registers in a person, and the assumption is the way they type or the way they have a behavioral tendency or trait indicates the cognition..

Human brains are far more nuanced, you can’t reduce someone’s way of digesting merely from a few characteristics of behavior or by how they type and how you interpret that…

Imaging typing a person who has diagnosed autism and who has cptsd as X type because they are “viscerally reactive” and can be literal….. And worse— be skeptical of the diagnosis and how severe it is just because of how you interpret the person relative to your own databank of experience… Without even bothering to study those two conditions and assuming the cause is “cognitive functions”.. Sure, all behavior originates in a brain and nervous system and the body works synergistically, but to assume it is at the forefront of where functions would operate (I guess prefrontal cortex, interesting it starts at beginning and goes behind and down, starting from top, symbolic)..

You can’t reduce every single behavior into cognitive functions, they’re cognitive, they are how things register and process… This doesn’t mean they all manifest behaviorally… They aren’t supposed to be seen, other than in what a person is able to understand.

DCNH is even worse. DCNH is how you got that guy trying type me as an “SEE” because I am “viscerally reactive”, can be literal in my communication, and it’s just “harmonizing intuitive subtype”….. This is how you get people also trying slap EIE on me “oh, you’re just an IP EIE”..

[necrosebud]

I was just suggesting based on what you and others has said and interpreted maybe an EP layer with Ne accentuation might make sense (and Se and Fe also I think for C sub)

I don’t really think in terms of schools I just take ideas I like or don’t like and go from there but if dcnh doesn’t appeal to you that’s … alright