why don't some reinin dichotomies match or fit together?

[Lao Tzunami]

There are 15 type dichotomies. Combining any two of these dichotomies creates a small group, such as quadra, temperament or club. Every small group is defined by 3 dichotomies and by selecting two traits, you select the small group and imply what the third trait must be.

For example, the Linear Assertive temperament consist of the four types that are extroverted, rational and dynamic: LIE, EIE, LSE, ESE. I can refer to this temperament as extroverted + rational types, extroverted + dynamic types or rational + dynamic types. Either way, I am always talking about the Ej temperament, and by extension, the third trait I did not use.

Since these three traits are dependent on each other, you can create impossible combinations. If all extroverted + rational types are dynamic, then there are no types that are say, extroverted + rational + static. You can use this property as a parity check and check for errors.

for example, why can't someone be a static+ positivist+tactical+asking+emotivist?

The only type that is static+ positivist+tactical+asking is ILE. ILE is a constructivist, not an emotivist. That's why that type combination doesn't work. Not that we know this person is ILE. All dichotomies being equally reliable, ILE, SEE, IEI and LSI are all the most likely.

I have an excel program I made showing this structure if you are a visual person.

[Zero]

The only type that is static+ positivist+tactical+asking is ILE. ILE is a constructivist, not an emotivist. That's why that type combination doesn't work.

I have an excel program I made showing this structure if you are a visual person.

when you mention Te and being dynamic, that is understandable but some other combinations don't match and a why is not explained.
is there like a link that explains "why Te is dynamic" "why Ni+Fe makes one an aristocrat but Ni+Te makes one a democrat" . If Fe makes IEI an aristocrat then why is SEI a democrat?

[Lao Tzunami]

when you mention Te and being dynamic, that is understandable but some other combinations don't match and a why is not explained.
is there like a link that explains "why Te is dynamic" "why Ni+Fe makes one an aristocrat but Ni+Te makes one a democrat" . If Fe makes IEI an aristocrat then why is SEI a democrat?

The aristocrat - democrat dichotomy is the third club dichotomy, the other two being intuition - sensing and logic - ethics. You seem to be thinking in terms of information metabolism which is perfectly fine, but makes things a little more complicated. Intuition - sensing defines what irrational element is strong and weak while logic - ethics defines which rational element is strong and weak. The aristocratic - democratic dichotomy does not position any element directly in model A. It might attach a +/- charge to the 8 elements, but there are so many conflicting theories about charges at the moment, I don't know if any of them are reliable.

[Zero]

Can you give me a specific example?

for example we can't have someone who is negativist+strategic+obstinate+farsighted and is an aristocrat. why? I know the facts, just don't understand why

[Lao Tzunami]

for example we can't have someone who is negativist+strategic+obstinate+farsighted and is an aristocrat. why? I know the facts, just don't understand why

The simple answer is the reinin dichotomies were first groups of types that were generated mathematically, and only later assigned empirical meaning. That group doesn't work because no type fits those constraints. However, you may possibly meet someone with those actual traits because the reinin dichotomies are still being developed and maybe a few of them don't have reliable definitions. This is why the are controversial and open to debate.

[Zero]

However, you may possibly meet someone with those actual traits because the reinin dichotomies are still being developed and maybe a few of them don't have reliable definitions. This is why the are controversial and open to debate.

yes and that is bugging me

[Saoirse]

for example, why can't someone be a static+ positivist+tactical+asking+emotivist?

you can see how they fit here: http://www.zhilkin.com/socio/en/

is there something in the description of one or more of the dichotomies that doesn't match the rest? like how you can't be a couch potato and athletic at the same time in the Sims game!
but what is it? why? maybe there is someone who has those dichotomies at once and is therefore struggling to be typed?
but then there would be 1307674e12 (15!) different types.. umm...?!

I really like this question. I don't know the dichotomies well, so I unbiasedly (in the sense of not being able to try to make myself get a specific type or support/refute the dichotomies) clicked the three Reinin traits that I thought were most clearly true for me according to the descriptions in the linked website--rational, result-oriented, yielding. I was narrowed down to Jack or Dreiser! Then adding any of the quadric traits that describe me--reasonable, subjective, or aristocratic--made me no type. Also just clicking all three of those quadric traits makes me no type.

The simple answer is the reinin dichotomies were first groups of types that were generated mathematically, and only later assigned empirical meaning. That group doesn't work because no type fits those constraints. However, you may possibly meet someone with those actual traits because the reinin dichotomies are still being developed and maybe a few of them don't have reliable definitions. This is why the are controversial and open to debate.

I didn't know the dichotomies were generated mathematically. How did this process work exactly? Do you know a good article about it?

I guess the impossibility of certain Reinin trait combinations is similar to the impossibility of certain IE dimensionality combinations. Like no one can have a 4D feeling IE but also a 3D or 4D thinking IE. There's no a priori reason that this must be true, but it is. The basic components in our brain that give rise to the dichotomies and IE strengths seem to be like those puzzle toys where when you move one piece, it moves other pieces. They're not just switches lined up in a row that you can individually, independently turn off or on.

Then perhaps the reason we cannot see why certain Reinin trait combinations or IE dimensionality combinations should logically be impossible is that the Reinin traits and IEs are not the most basic components yet--there is still something more fundamental that we have not yet stumbled upon, perhaps because it lies more in the field of neurology than psychology.

[Zero]

The aristocrat - democrat dichotomy is the third club dichotomy, the other two being intuition - sensing and logic - ethics. You seem to be thinking in terms of information metabolism which is perfectly fine, but makes thinks a little more complicated. Intuition - sensing defines what irrational element is strong and weak while logic - ethics defines which rational element is strong and weak. The aristocratic - democratic dichotomy does not position any element directly in model A. It might attach a +/- charge to the 8 elements, but there are so many conflicting theories about charges at the moment, I don't know if any of them are reliable.

I'm just trying to understand things on a deeper level that is why I am thinking in terms of information metabolism, thank you for the info, I know how things work but just not deeply explained. just how some parts of intertype relations aren't explained. this is this and that is that, there is no why answered . you know the idea of a bullshit detector is very important specially in terms of personality theories, and what you say about conflicting theories about charges I also agree with, it should have a thread of it's own how many conflicting theories there are. I would really appreciate someone looking specifically for them and writing a paper about it.

[Lao Tzunami]

what you say about conflicting theories about charges I also agree with, it should have a thread of it's own how many conflicting theories there are. I would really appreciate someone looking specifically for them and writing a paper about it.

I am writing a paper on the dichotomies which you can read here [link]

And I also made a wikisocion page with all the different small groups I know of [link]

Hope it helps

[Simo]

when you mention Te and being dynamic, that is understandable but some other combinations don't match and a why is not explained.
is there like a link that explains "why Te is dynamic" "why Ni+Fe makes one an aristocrat but Ni+Te makes one a democrat" . If Fe makes IEI an aristocrat then why is SEI a democrat?

Reinin dichotomies are based of combinations of jungian dichotomies (E/I, N/S, T/F, P/J) not on information elements so it is not Fe that makes IEI an aristocrat but it is being NF so other NF types (EIE, IEE, EII) are also aristocrats

what reinin is trying to say is when you combine two or more jungian dichotomy you get a new dichotomy so NF is different from NT so he went to observe what is shared between NF types but is different in NT types so he came up with aristocrat vs democrat, the question is does this new dichotomy actually differentiate NF vs NT or is it related to something else for example NP vs NJ? logically NF & NT should be different but did reinin do a good job defining the difference? I didn't read anything that prove him right or wrong so far

so if you think you have a reinin combination that doesn't fit any type then maybe it is because one of those dichotomies is defined incorrectly, but it can also be because you didn't really understand the dichotomy the way it was intended by the reinin himself

[PrettySavage]

so if you think you have a reinin combination that doesn't fit any type then maybe it is because one of those dichotomies is defined incorrectly, but it can also be because you didn't really understand the dichotomy the way it was intended by the reinin himself

Do you think there's a better alternative than the Wiki explanation of their meaning?

[Aylen]

Do you think there's a better alternative than the Wiki explanation of their meaning?

The Reinin book is available for download here if anyone wants to read it. It is very, colorful, which didn't bother me but some might not like it. You can always change the color.

I read the whole thing which is basically his type descriptions and a history of socionics from his perspective. I think some of it is good and some is off. I think at first I felt a bit offended by his examples but it was due to a forum member presenting it a certain way putting their own spin on it. Aftering reading it myself I could see what he was getting at in a more general way. I mean who really wants to be portrayed as easily led so I had a bit of a gut reaction to the suggestion but after consideration I can say he was correct in a more general sense. I never liked the IEI descriptions that suggested they are "tag-alongs" but it is the word itself that was a bit offensive not the general idea since it can be true. I don't know if that came from Reinin but after reading the book I assume it was influenced by him.

1. The good-natured tag-along who likes to be attached to groups and provides constant comic relief.

From Reinin:

Function #4– objective sensoring (): suggestible function. Activity, motion. “Others ought to tell me what I should do. A good place is the place where there is action, movement, where work gets done". There are times when she finds herself on her way some place or sitting by a campfire. It is as if she was "inserted" in unplanned circumstances. She could not resist the external influence. “They took me with them, so I went along. I have no will of my own.” This type should be attentive to their choices. Do these things correspond to the goals of my life? Will they take me there where I want to be? A Tutankhamon may seek to escape later when she realizes that it is not where she wants to be. It is too late though; people reap what they sow. On the one hand she is in slavery to other people, and on the other hand she is a skilled manipulator of the external relationships. When a Tutankhamon realizes what she is reaping, instead of repenting she resorts to harassing the people who got her involved and looks for ways to get out of the mess, produced by her irresponsibility, using the strengths of her type.

At least he offers some advice. I am an advocate of making more conscious choices and not just falling in with a group because I let myself be carried away. I do have a will of my own and I can say no but, tbh, a lot of it was fun, even if it got me into a lot of trouble. I can relate to the part I put in red. Getting myself out of tricky situations has been a skill that I didn't appreciate enough when I was younger. I am just more aware and make more conscious choices now. I felt put off by the whole thing when I first read it similar to when I read E4 descriptions. It made me take a good look at myself and by doing that I felt more freedom.


http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Reinin-s-Book

[Zero]

@Aylen thanks for the book, just ignore this part of personality theories, it is ridiculous, is Julian Assange a "good-natured tag along"? I think not

[Aylen]

@Aylen thanks for the book, just ignore this part of personality theories, it is ridiculous, is Julian Assange a "good-natured tag along"? I think not

I had a hard time seeing myself as a Tag-along since I can take a leadership role when I have or want to, even if I am funny sometimes. I think it is easy for some to see it that way when they are unaware of underlying dynamics. I would say my IEI brother is often offering more comic relief than I am. I didn't realize Assange was typed IEI but I don't know much about him other than the crimes he is accused of.

[Simo]

Do you think there's a better alternative than the Wiki explanation of their meaning?

I was trying to say sometimes words don't express ideas as intended so you describe x idea using y words but the other person understands y words as z idea then both of you think you are talking about the same idea but actually you are talking about x and the other is talking about z