ESE-LSI communication (ESFj-ISTj semi-duality)

[Iwantpeace]

Fellow Alphas,

I would love your advice on how best to communicate with an LSI.
I am in a LTR with an LSI. When we met we were much younger and I think he found me entertaining- we are little older now.

Part of the communication issue is that the LSI thinks I get bored easily and want to make changes to our lives. This is true I do get bored easily.
He seeks stability and planning for the future -it is a big deal to him. I try to respect that the best I can but sometimes I can't help myself and want to have conversations about things "we could do" for fun. I don't always intend to follow through with them.

I like to talk about random possibilities out of boredom and curiosity. Why not imagine, or even try them?
Why must we limit ourselves?

Example:

Me: "Let's rent our house and move 15 miles south to the country and rent a farm. We could have room for rescue animals."

LSI: *Looks stressed.* "But we just moved into this house two years ago".


Then today I mentioned how I was bored of my car of 6 years and wanted a different one. The LSI asked why do you need a different one, what is wrong with your current car. Of course nothing is wrong with my car I just want something different (a jeep-I've never had a jeep before).
He wants a logical reason for the car switch. I can't provide that.

Another example:

Me: "When I am done this grad program, I am going to get an MA in Art Therapy".
Him: "So what's the plan with that?"
Me: "No plan, I can probably teach while in school so the tuition will be partially-free and it will be fun."
Him: "What are you going to do with that degree-how will it help you professionally?"
Me: "Probably nothing-it just looks very interesting."

He seems to want things to be stable, consistent and working toward a fixed goal or plan.
I feel like its an Ni vs Ne conflict.

[Adam Strange]

Fellow Alphas,

I would love your advice on how best to communicate with an LSI.
I am in a LTR with an LSI. When we met we were much younger and I think he found me entertaining- we are little older now.

Part of the communication issue is that the LSI thinks I get bored easily and want to make changes to our lives. This is true I do get bored easily.
He seeks stability and planning for the future -it is a big deal to him. I try to respect that the best I can but sometimes I can't help myself and want to have conversations about things "we could do" for fun. I don't always intend to follow through with them.

I like to talk about random possibilities out of boredom and curiosity. Why not imagine, or even try them?
Why must we limit ourselves?

Example:

Me: "Let's rent our house and move 15 miles south to the country and rent a farm. We could have room for rescue animals."

LSI: *Looks stressed.* "But we just moved into this house two years ago".


Then today I mentioned how I was bored of my car of 6 years and wanted a different one. The LSI asked why do you need a different one, what is wrong with your current car. Of course nothing is wrong with my car I just want something different (a jeep-I've never had a jeep before).
He wants a logical reason for the car switch. I can't provide that.

Another example:

Me: "When I am done this grad program, I am going to get an MA in Art Therapy".
Him: "So what's the plan with that?"
Me: "No plan, I can probably teach while in school so the tuition will be partially-free and it will be fun."
Him: "What are you going to do with that degree-how will it help you professionally?"
Me: "Probably nothing-it just looks very interesting."

He seems to want things to be stable, consistent and working toward a fixed goal or plan.
I feel like its an Ni vs Ne conflict.

Jeeps are nice. Two friends of mine have jeeps. Women seem to associate them with freedom, and they have fantastic heaters.

[Number 9 large]

Then today I mentioned how I was bored of my car of 6 years and wanted a different one. The LSI asked why do you need a different one, what is wrong with your current car. Of course nothing is wrong with my car I just want something different (a jeep-I've never had a jeep before).
He wants a logical reason for the car switch. I can't provide that.

Tbh I think I'd be on his side on this one. Why would you go out and randomly buy a jeep? Seems to make no sense to me, there's probably way better things you could do with that money.

I like to talk about random possibilities out of boredom and curiosity. Why not imagine, or even try them?
Why must we limit ourselves?

You limit your opportunities by spending money on a jeep that you don't need, is what I'd say. Better be off spending it on something else. I mean I know I'd be open to ideas, but they gotta be sound and be thought through. This proposal is just a waste of money.

I would love your advice on how best to communicate with an LSI.

If you wanna gain his support in any of your potential endeavours, they gotta make sense (logical basis) and be a step into the right direction, not be some random idea that you come up with without thought, is all I'm saying.

I mean you can fantasize, sure, and if one of those ideas sticks with you for a longer period of time and you feel like it's the right thing, you should probably not ignore the thought (such as living on a farm/gettin that art degree, for example, that didn't sound completely random), because we can't really control our desires, and in the end, all we want is to be happy.

However, I know for me that I'd be annoyed if someone constantly would try to shake things up for shaking-things-up's sake, without first thinking through.
I'd stop taking you seriously and think of you as childish, unrealistic and impulsive, like a kid that, when he sees a random toy at a store, cries to his mom that he needs to have it, without thinking about how much it would cost, what other things he could do with that money, if he really needs to have the the toy in order to be happy...

So all I'm saying is; he'd probably be open to change, so long as there is a good reason for it (emotional or logical). If it makes no sense and is just a random thought, he'd probably be annoyed that you didn't at least think it through yourself at least a bit, unless you make clear you're doing it for good reason, such as having the feeling that you're stuck in a rut/feeling unhappy with your life, which, believe me, is not something you should ignore, because the feeling will grow stonger and stronger untill you can't cope any longer (speaking from experience).

Your random coming-up with ideas might be a sign of that, and if you'd tell him that I'm pretty sure he'd respect that and try to think of a solution with you. As your boyfriend, I'm sure he'd want you to be happy.

[Shining]

Maybe (if not already done) first you should communicate with him about that (your need to make changes, to do new things) before actually letting him to know your ideas (if you wish something specifically like in your examples).

Do you have very specifics ideas of what you would like to do (like the examples you gave) ?
Or, is it change (no matter the change, as long as it is interesting to you) you are pursuing ?

[Cosmic Teapot]

@sorrowsofyoungwerther

If you don't intend to bring all your ideas and could-be scenarios into reality, please tell him exactly that.
The moment you say "Let's rent our house and move 15 miles south to the country and rent a farm. We could have room for rescue animals." he does not hear "maybe" but "I want that as soon as possible and I'm sure about it."

Most of his thinking revolves around "will this last?", "is this secure/logical?", "how will this decision affect future situations/cause problems a few years from now?". You must know that at any moment he tries to keep his and your reality together with detailed plans that he thinks about all the time (Ni-HA).

He is not as good as an ILI and many of his plans won't turn out as imagined. That means as soon as you present a possibility that harms his "blueprint for a totally secure future" he will feel tension and be defensive about it.
When he asks you about the reasonableness of your plans, he tests them for potential financial disasters because he thinks, when something happens, it is him who will have to clean up the mess.
Cleaning up the mess is not the biggest problem, it's that he cannot foresee the dynamics of future scenarios. He won't know if he is prepared or capable to solve those problems.

His own imagination about the future is always better (+Ne) than the potential problems caused by other people. Either everything will be ok or everything will crash and burn and no one will trust him ever again. Or worse he loses trust in the people who are responsible for the problems in the first place.

I'm sure he will talk with you about new possibilities but you absolutely have to signal him first that you are not 100% serious about it and that he can relax. And when you end the conversation don't let him think that you will do something behind his back and make your own plans.

[FDG]

Do you pay for the car, or does he have to pay?

If you pay, why do you want his approval?

[FDG]

We are married and share all our finances. While I could get the car without asking for his in-put I would always run major financial decisions through him and appreciate when he does the same with me.

Well it's not so easy then. I guess you could try argumenting why your new car is much better than the older one for your needs, what do you think?

Are you going to share the car with him?

Just personally I understand him being skeptical about moving and starting a new business, it's a big deal, should be scrutinized in detail before trying to put it into practice.

However, people buy and sell cars all the time, if you're not in major financial troubles, I don't easily see the point of having to argue about it...

[The Reality Denialist]

I wouldn't be so thrilled about the work one has to put in it.

This is case of HA.
It probably works out better if you could talk with LIIs about this. The way you are going towards this is still very raw and LSI do not want to give better suggestions hence you are in this position.

I think we need rational alphas feedback.

[GuavaDrunk]

Seconding that making it clear to your LSI which ideas are purely a castle in the air and which aren't would go a long way towards de-stressing him.

[ouronis]

You sound stressful. Why don't you represent this behavior in smaller actions (that don't require his participation) to get him accustomed to it?

[ClownsandEntropy]

Aw yeah, let's just talk about Jeeps!

Jeeps are nice. Two friends of mine have jeeps. Women seem to associate them with freedom, and they have fantastic heaters.

Nice! Good Jeep comment.

Tbh I think I'd be on his side on this one. Why would you go out and randomly buy a jeep? Seems to make no sense to me, there's probably way better things you could do with that money.

You limit your opportunities by spending money on a jeep that you don't need, is what I'd say.

Hm, valid Jeep rebuttal.

(I'm just teasing, I just thought it was funny that the first couple of responses started talking about Jeeps and not about communication. ALSO Jeep is one of those words which sound funny the more you say it. It also becomes less powerful (which is how I view Jeeps) the more you say it, and more childish.

ANYWAY your actual question:

I feel like you need to be clear that you understand what he's trying to achieve. LSI is probably very focused on planning for a secure financial future and so any conversation about hypothetical what-if's may be seen as a potential course of action that you could become dead set on. I guess LSI is expecting some EIE to become really emotionally tied up in a direction, and be willing to steamroll anyone because EIE really wants it and thinks it's good. If LSI expects that, then he'll try to squash any silly ideas before that get that emotional momentum. If you can make it clear when you're just being silly then LSI will be more open to just discussing it. I imagine it will need to be a very "we all know this is silly, but imagine if...". This also means that when you have an actually interesting decision you might want to take, you can LSI won't assume all your ideas are outlandish, because you've differentiated between the outlandish ones and the actually promising ones.

If you are going to suggest an idea in earnest, then you probably do need to give some good reasons for it. Like if you want to rent out your house then you could show the financial viability of it. Sorry that's the best I've got. Should have dated a -ego if you wanted someone to help you figure out how it's viable.

I also think you should talk to him about his goal actually is. (If I were to think about Socionics, LSI would be good at setting a plan in place and sticking to it, as that's +, but not very good at figuring out a meaningful target, as that's ).

He might have a certain image in mind, or he might even just have this old heuristic that "frugality = good". If the former, then firstly you now understand what he's trying to achieve and can figure out what suggestions are in line with that; and secondly you can try to change those goals or point out the flaws.

E.g.

• You could say that you also want to pay off your house mortgage, but you're willing to extend it by 5 years because you don't think you'll have good quality of life in between now and then.
• You could agree to not take any trips for the next three years, but you can talk about planning the trip you will be taking in three years time.

I find resources about financial independence useful for this, if you have time/patience to read, for example the 4% Rule. Ultimately, I guess you need your financial goals to align, because if you don't then, like, you'll never agree and you'll be working against each other for the entire relationship.

And if it's the latter (he just has a heuristic of "frugality = good") then you need to get him to be more strategic about his goal. I have less confidence about this advice, but here is mine:

• You should say that you agree that saving money is good, but it's only good because it lets you do exciting things while feeling secure.
• You feel like that the current level of saving is too severe, so it's defeating the entire purpose.
• Start talking about financial goals. What do you want? When do you want to retire? How will we pay for kids? Etc. etc.
• Figure out how much it costs, and how you will get there - LSI may have thoughts about this step

You may even be doing him a favour by making the future less uncertain ("OK, gotta save to be safe. How much should I save?... How about EVERYTHING" -> "OK, need to save 50% of my income. How am I doing? OK, so I'm at 55%, so I'm just above that proportion but not a lot of margin if there's an unexpected expense.")

[Adam Strange]

Aw yeah, let's just talk about Jeeps!

Jeeps are nice. Two friends of mine have jeeps. Women seem to associate them with freedom, and they have fantastic heaters.

Nice! Good Jeep comment.

Thanks! I figured that, since I know almost nothing about ESE's and could not possibly give one of them advice on how to communicate with LSI's beyond what I'm sure the OP already knows, I'd go for laughs.

I hope you got some from it. I certainly did.

And, to be completely candid, I thought my poor answer would attract an LII to correct it, so the OP would get some useful advice.

[Computer Loser]

just keep ur mouth shut and listen to him.

[ClownsandEntropy]

And, to be completely candid, I thought my poor answer would attract an LII to correct it, so the OP would get some useful advice.

You did effing not. I don't believe that you could predict me so easily.

[Myst]

This is it. There is an anxiety about the future with LSIs. They want to plan for all possibilities. He often says "you never know what the future will hold." Well I am Ni-polr so I don't spend much time worrying.

That said I have fun with my EII friend who will throw out random ideas/plans. Last time I saw her said she was moving to Europe to get a second degree. I know she will find some other plan the next time I see her. Its Ne chatter.

There's some variability here with type because I don't really have that anxiety about the future. I plan the main logical points by default, those are taken seriously but the rest is filled in when I get there so I remain decently adaptable about quite some things. Then some other things nope, more inflexible about those, true. And I guess I take care of the rest of any uncertainty by rejecting all silly ideas that would get in the way, real quickly without even having to think about them. lol
@Number 9 large mainly said my take on this already. @ClownsandEntropy also had good input. But I'll add a bit of mine below.

Seconding that making it clear to your LSI which ideas are purely a castle in the air and which aren't would go a long way towards de-stressing him.

This is me but it would just annoy me even more tbh if I'm told that they are just ideas for playing with at length. I'd rather not even get together with such a person for my whole life. Yes I know this sounds extreme dislike for Ne but eh, yeah.

I guess if they only bring up such things once a week or something like that, I could tolerate it. That's the best compromise I could make about this. But in general, if the Ni valuing is not shared I'd have a problem pretty soon anyway so this compromise on its own probably would not help enough. Others like OP's LSI husband may be a bit less fixated on the shared Ni tho'. (I'm quite strongly Ni seeking.)

I'm sure he will talk with you about new possibilities but you absolutely have to signal him first that you are not 100% serious about it and that he can relax.

Again this is me but that wouldn't relax me lol. One exception from my taking issue with this possibilities talk is if we are having a lot of fun already and some little ideas come up, not too many and only ideas that aren't too silly like the OP's example for moving to a farm, that's way too out of the blue big silly stuff. Like I could let the talking partner bring up ideas on where to go for a vacation, to reach a decision on it, that's fine. Or ideas for what business to start up if I'm or they are actually considering to do something. But this is not about just playing around with ideas at length.

And that moving to a farm thing is just completely getting in the way of everything else. Pointless to even think of it for even a second. The jeep thing is okay if financially not a problem. The MA art therapy thing is also okayish if there is that much free time to spend on it. I'm not saying I care for aimless stuff like that but if it doesn't hurt the real aims then okay I leave the person alone about it. Assuming the person does have real aims shared with me too...

And when you end the conversation don't let him think that you will do something behind his back and make your own plans.

That's good advice yes.

[FDG]

I still don't get why you need to ask permission to buy a jeep if you're working and you're not in financial trouble and you don't have specific financial goals you are trying to reach together. He's gaining power over you by focussing on saving, I don't think it's healthy to accept this dynamic.

[Jeremy8419]

House.
Car.
Education.

These aren't like an outfit or some electronics. These are about as big of financial decisions as people make in their lives. You sound like you're making major life decisions on complete whim. This isn't a matter of communication or type, but a matter of basic, responsible behavior.

[Jeremy8419]

Good examples of bringing "fun":
Taking some cooking classes together.
Monthly dance lessons.
Building a small garden in backyard for "country" feel.
Minor redecorations to a room for theme.
Tennis together.
Weekly movie and wine nights.
Only choosing a couple of the above or similar.

Bad examples of bringing "fun":
A new mortgage.
A new car loan.
Buying an African baby online for mail delivery.
Jumping out of planes.
Education loans instead of free leisure learning classes.
"Switching."

Moderation + new = fun.
No moderation + new = an unexpected child.

See the difference?

[Number 9 large]

Good examples of bringing "fun":
Taking some cooking classes together.
Monthly dance lessons.
Building a small garden in backyard for "country" feel.
Minor redecorations to a room for theme.
Tennis together.
Weekly movie and wine nights.
Only choosing a couple of the above or similar.

Bad examples of bringing "fun":
A new mortgage.
A new car loan.
Buying an African baby online for mail delivery.
Jumping out of planes.
Education loans instead of free leisure learning classes.
"Switching."

Moderation + new = fun.
No moderation + new = an unexpected child.

See the difference?

I guess not, because it's all about : Possibilities :

[FDG]

House.
Car.
Education.

These aren't like an outfit or some electronics. These are about as big of financial decisions as people make in their lives. You sound like you're making major life decisions on complete whim. This isn't a matter of communication or type, but a matter of basic, responsible behavior.

A car can't be compared to a house and education in terms of financial impact. It may even be financially less impactful than buying a backyard garden and doing wine nights regularly.

(In some places of the world even education may be extremely unexpensive)

[ApeironStella]

Honestly, it sounds like best case if you make it clear whenever you are simply throwing random ideas out there with no intention to follow. LSIs do take it as a real wish, something you want.

As a LII, I would sometimes point out how nice/cute something looks with no plan to buy it- With the thought process being something like "I don't need it and I simply like the idea of how they did that and I wonder how I could do something like that at home and with what materials/How can I use that kind of mechanism with something else/Oh this looks really cool/cute/nice actually, even if I don't need it". My LSI mother would always get into "You want to buy it? How much does it cost and would we afford it at the moment? Do we/you need this?" mode in response. So I learned to add that I simply liked X and Y in the thing and had no intention of buying it/didn't really want to buy and was merely observing. (Or when I wanted to buy it, automatically go into "Can we afford this" talk with her, reasoning.)

With Ne PoLR, you can hold his attention with random idea-shooting for so long though, even if he is aware that it is having fun. The automatic response to Ne idea shooting from her always was along the lines of "Just do what is necessary instead of talking about it/Do what step is necessary to reach your goal at the moment".

So what I could suggest is, starting with "I know this is not our plan but can you imagine..."/"I know this is completely random but isn't it fun to think about" or something along the lines rather than "Ok but let's do this/I want to do this" (which, probably would swim a little better with a LII but give you response of "Is that even possible/Okay but why/Well, it could be done if we did X" grounding to idea.) So your Ni-PoLR would not end up worrying him about how much you care about both of your well-being and if you are simply being a child with being so unprepared.

[Adam Strange]

You did effing not. I don't believe that you could predict me so easily.

No, I totally did. ESE's to LII's are like honey to the bee. And here was a chance to show off your intelligence to someone who is asking for it, who appreciates it, who NEEDS it to function. Duality is such a wonderful thing.

Now, I will freely admit, I didn't think that YOU would necessarily be the LII to respond, but I did think an LII would respond.

[Cosmic Teapot]

No, I totally did. ESE's to LII's are like honey to the bee. And here was a chance to show off your intelligence to someone who is asking for it, who appreciates it, who NEEDS it to function. Duality is such a wonderful thing.

Now, I will freely admit, I didn't think that YOU would necessarily be the LII to respond, but I did think an LII would respond.

This is making me so uncomfortable. Are LIE's (and EIE's) always so good at predicting peoples moves? That one LIE said that he never knows what is going on in my head. Was that an understatement? Can he predict what I will do next? What is going on an LIE's head? *starts hyperventilating*

[Adam Strange]

This is making me so uncomfortable. Are LIE's (and EIE's) always so good at predicting peoples moves? That one LIE said that he never knows what is going on in my head. Was that an understatement? Can he predict what I will do next? What is going on an LIE's head? *starts hyperventilating*

@Cosmic Teapot. SLI's so hate to be predictable.

TBH, LIE's really have no idea what's going on inside your head. But if you act consistently, LIE's will notice that and will file it away, and will see if the pattern plays out in the future.

Here is proof.

This is what I imagine is going through a female SLI's head:



Not even close, is it?


And this is not what is going through a male SLI's head, but it is a distillation of how they act.



Note his surprise at being exposed for whom he really is, his evasions, and his cool deflection of her advances.

[nokomis]

This thread convinced me I'm an LII and not an LSI. OP sounds fun as shit.

[silke]

Another example:

Me: "When I am done this grad program, I am going to get an MA in Art Therapy".
Him: "So what's the plan with that?"
Me: "No plan, I can probably teach while in school so the tuition will be partially-free and it will be fun."
Him: "What are you going to do with that degree-how will it help you professionally?"
Me: "Probably nothing-it just looks very interesting."

He seems to want things to be stable, consistent and working toward a fixed goal or plan.
I feel like its an Ni vs Ne conflict.

Partially. There is also the thing with LSIs being one of the least stress/rapid change resistant types, while all the vortical-synergetic types thrive on chaos and rapid changes. So your natural inclinations will conflict there.

Then there is the Tactical vs. Strategic traits. EIEs are considered to be a strategic type by Reinin (as are LIIs). Strategic types try to direct their efforts into one continuous course, towards some kind of long-term (for intuitive strategists) or massive (for sensing strategists) goal. Tactical types for the most part do whatever, only because it's within their immediate reach and satisfies some short-range aims or needs, sometimes that need being simple fun, but this also comes at a risk of scattering their time and efforts over the long run. He's basically asking you if you have a game plan (something like this thread).

[Cosmic Teapot]

@Cosmic Teapot. SLI's so hate to be predictable.

TBH, LIE's really have no idea what's going on inside your head. But if you act consistently, LIE's will notice that and will file it away, and will see if the pattern plays out in the future.

Here is proof.

This is what I imagine is going through a female SLI's head:



Not even close, is it?


And this is not what is going through a male SLI's head, but it is a distillation of how they act.



Note his surprise at being exposed for whom he really is, his evasions, and his cool deflection of her advances.

Ok good to know! The music in the first video is killing me.
Btw. don't know if that discards SLI
but the inside of my head fluctuates between a Star Trek Gag Reel and Ron Swanson from Parks. and Rec.

[Myst]

This thread convinced me I'm an LII and not an LSI. OP sounds fun as shit.

OK then my hunch was right that what you were describing in the ISTj rules thread was Ne

(But if your Si is still stronger than Ne then SLI is a decent option too)

[SpreeFirit]

This is making me so uncomfortable. Are LIE's (and EIE's) always so good at predicting peoples moves? That one LIE said that he never knows what is going on in my head. Was that an understatement? Can he predict what I will do next? What is going on an LIE's head? *starts hyperventilating*

*hug*

[Wulzirik]

Where the LSI women at LOL

[Myst]

Where the LSI women at LOL

I commented in the thread earlier as a LSI woman... : p