ESTjs (LSEs) and Fi suggestive aka dual-seeking

[Rebelondeck]

I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

a.k.a. I/O

You don't see how I did just that at the end here?

I would say "I think that you are over reacting and accusing your coworker unnecessarily (which turns out to be correct). You shouldn't just walk away because you are upset and it's wrong to do it without a formal notice because this is a small industry and people talk to each other and rely on personal references so your reputation is at stake. It's good to keep your relationships on a cordial level with this network." LSEs say "yes, you're right. I'm just upset right now and I need to vent." I say "I wouldn't say or do anything dramatic; I would just stay calm and be polite."

[Rebelondeck]

You don't see how I did just that at the end here?

Yes. Perhaps I got a little too redundant in my summary. I was only trying to make the point that you should not be describing ethical direction as if it comes from Fi; it comes from you and the way that you were raised and influenced......

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Yes. Perhaps I got a little too redundant in my summary. I was only trying to make the point that you should not be describing ethical direction as if it comes from Fi; it comes from you and the way that you were raised and influenced......

a.k.a. I/O

Wherever they come from, in the midst of the confusion LSEs get lost about what to think of their relationships. Once friendly and trustworthy coworker is now suspiciously viewed by the LSEs and they don't know what to think of people or the situation at hand because they over react. Maybe it's my calm nature that allows me to keep a level head during the crisis

[Rebelondeck]

........is now suspiciously viewed by the LSEs ......... they over react..........

Unfortunately LSEs can get somewhat paranoid when they cannot see the forest because the trees keep getting in the way so they sometimes try to cut down a tree or two in order to see better......

[Delilah]

I think ethics is a learned quality; it's not innate in any type. What LSE needs from EII is an independent analysis of the consequences of LSE action, specifically the relative impact of this action upon others; however, LSEs will never think that they want this analysis although they will be grateful for it after the fact. The LSE needs restraint and refection, of which EII are masters. LSEs don't need listeners although they may like them; they need active participants in their rationalization processes, independent opinions and people who can cool the LSE's jets, which falls in the EII's purview..........

a.k.a. I/O

This is interesting, what do you think makes ethics different from other functions?

[Rebelondeck]

This is interesting, what do you think makes ethics different from other functions?

Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

a.k.a. I/O

Now you are confusing an ethical person from a person who determines ethics.

[Rebelondeck]

Now you are confusing an ethical person from a person who determines ethics.

So the information element is solely determining ethics and not also exhibiting ethically-oriented qualities in some functions? Do all types make a determination on ethics using a specific information element? How does one separate the determination of ethics from ethical qualities? Where does preaching ethics fit?

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

So the information element is solely determining ethics and not also exhibiting ethically-oriented qualities in some functions? Do all types make a determination on ethics using a specific information element? How does one separate the determination of ethics from ethical qualities? Where does preaching ethics fit?

a.k.a. I/O

I have no idea
I'd have to look at the specific workings across all types to determine this

As far as preaching ethics ILI a Logical type can do it but again they have mental access to Fi and Fe

[Delilah]

Ethical and logical, from a Socionics perspective, really should refer to relative and absolute rationalization processes. I know far more ethical L-types than I do unethical ones and I've observed all sorts of E-types exhibiting unethical behaviour. I simply think that it's misleading to label an information element or any functional aspect of cognitive processing as the root of ethics. Raise someone in the right environment and one will create an ethical person regardless of type.

a.k.a. I/O

I wondered when i asked that question whether it's an epistemological concern, but i thank you for your answer as I still try to see from my own perspective what the theory hinges on

[Rebelondeck]

I wondered when i asked that question whether it's an epistemological concern, but i thank you for your answer as I still try to see from my own perspective what the theory hinges on

Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy. I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect. One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy.

No

I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect.

I somewhat agree but not entirely

One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

a.k.a. I/O

You're asking for a study that can't be done yet

[Rebelondeck]

.....You're asking for a study that can't be done yet

I'm not asking but I'm certain that it wouldn't be rocket science; there might be an undergraduate paper or two out of it. However, psychology may not be the best field for the task.....

a.k.a. I/O

[Delilah]

Just be aware that on this site, I'm likely viewed by many as totally out to lunch, confusing the issues and or preaching heresy. I do think that Socionics has classified types quite well but implying that information elements translate directly to actual functionality would be incorrect. One needs to look at a finer granularity and likely have a different mindset to determine what processes actually produce the information elements.

a.k.a. I/O

You don't sound heretic enough to me

Are you I/O from Ganin's site? I used to post them sometimes as 'felafel'

[Rebelondeck]

You don't sound heretic enough to me

Are you I/O from Ganin's site? I used to post them sometimes as 'felafel'

Yes, I'm that I/O. Isn't an engineer writing on a Socionics site is akin to a Buddhist trying to advise the Vatican? Ganin seemed to invite outsider opinion - perhaps similarly to Pope Francis; too bad his site is inactive.

a.k.a. I/O