How to romance series: LSI

[golden]

Heh this is what I meant. You influence them naturally, they also influence you naturally because the Ti vs Fe (and Se vs Ni) communication aligns well. I'm curious now, what sort of stuff do you perceive as controlling?

I have found people of all quadras controlling. Here are some things that qualify as controlling for me:

* Denying me my point of view
* Telling me how I feel, assuming you can understand that
* Setting up situations that serve your needs and not mine
* Treating me like an object
* Gaslighting
* Discouraging me from having friends
* Leaving me to do all the grunt work
* Mansplaining or any kind of condescension
* Lying about me
* Lying to me (following a pattern of deceit)
* Trying to impose rigid gender roles on me
* Making unilateral decisions when my input should have been sought
* Using insulting language to talk about me, or directly insulting me
* Forcing me to have sex
* Threatening me
* Bullying me
* Harassing me
* Using me
* Nickel-and-diming me
* Underpaying me

Things like that. These things are actual controlling behaviors. Any type can do these things -- woot! Equal opportunity.

[Tigerfadder]

I have found people of all quadras controlling. Here are some things that qualify as controlling for me:

* Denying me my point of view
* Telling me how I feel, assuming you can understand that
* Setting up situations that serve your needs and not mine
* Treating me like an object
* Gaslighting
* Discouraging me from having friends
* Leaving me to do all the grunt work
* Mansplaining or any kind of condescension
* Lying about me
* Lying to me (following a pattern of deceit)
* Nickel-and-diming me
* Trying to impose rigid gender roles on me
* Spreading false information about me
* Making unilateral decisions when my input should have been sought
* Using insulting language to talk about me, or directly insulting me
* Forcing me to have sex
* Threatening me
* Bullying me
* Harassing me
* Using me
* Underpaying me

Things like that. These things are actual controlling behaviors. Any type can do these things -- woot! Equal opportunity.

do you think that gaslighting can be due to being controlled of other quadra? What im reading on it is that your reality get undervalued and an other is pushed on you and you start to go crazy.

[golden]

do you think that gaslighting can be due to being controlled of other quadra? What im reading on it is that your reality get undervalued and an other is pushed on you and you start to go crazy.

I think there's a possibility that intertype or interquadra conflict or could make some of these bad behaviors more pronounced, but I've also seen messed-up people with messed-up duals and activity partners and family members who just reinforced each other's BS.

I associate gaslighting specifically with dark-triad personality problems and am not sure I see it as related to quadral conflict

[squark]

do you think that gaslighting can be due to being controlled of other quadra? What im reading on it is that your reality get undervalued and an other is pushed on you and you start to go crazy.

Gaslighting is something that manipulative and controlling people do, and doesn't have really anything to do with socionics, in my opinion. It's simply a way to control through indirect means. It's not that someone doesn't value your reality in any kind of quadra-related way, it's that they are purposefully trying to manipulate your reality and get you to question your perceptions so you will depend on theirs instead.

[Myst]

I have found people of all quadras controlling. Here are some things that qualify as controlling for me:

Hmm, ok. A lot of these things you listed are incredibly unfair especially when it's clear it's intentionally done but I wouldn't feel controlled by some of it since I have a choice to respond.

What I call controlling is when behaviour is directly controlled by the person (or direct attempt at doing so). The rest is selfish, unfair etc, so crap, yes, but the other party still has a choice to respond in whatever way they want to.

I guess if those are done intentionally to manipulate, that's a form of control (or attempt at it) too. So in that sense I get what you mean even if to me that's weirdly indirect.

[golden]

Hmm, ok. A lot of these things you listed are incredibly unfair especially when it's clear it's intentionally done but I wouldn't feel controlled by some of it since I have a choice to respond.

What I call controlling is when behaviour is directly controlled by the person (or direct attempt at doing so). The rest is selfish, unfair etc, so crap, yes, but the other party still has a choice to respond in whatever way they want to.

I guess if those are done intentionally to manipulate, that's a form of control (or attempt at it) too. So in that sense I get what you mean even if to me that's weirdly indirect.

The themes behind what I listed would be that they're all moves that diminish my humanity, choice, power, and self-determination. This is why I find them to be controlling moves. People can do them unconsciously simply to further a hegemony without being individually controlling, but the result is I'm still going to experience it as a check on me.

[Myst]

If one wants relationships with Ijs, one first must get to intimately know their plans, which may not be all that forthcoming right off the bat; it'll take time and a superficial understanding won't do. Many Ijs may think that they don't have plans but if one looks deep enough, they're there. All the time that you'll be spending trying to figure out the Ijs' plans, they will be rationalizing you, your probing and your actions. Their main concern will be whether or not you can be integrated into their plans and for your own protection, you have to find out exactly the same thing because they may not get it right in the beginning but later will wash their hands of you quickly. They'll readily give opinions and signals, not as much to cater to you but rather to test you, and much of this behaviour is involuntary. In the beginning, if their responses seem somewhat casual and non specific, then they may not be all that interested either the subject or the potential relationship - it can be hard to distinguish.

Hm, well I have been pretty upfront with the plans stuff, right away when I thought of something. But that was with people who I already knew, hm. Makes sense.

Casual and non-specific responses... it just means I'm keeping a distance. Still keeping it for now (may allow this to change later) or already decided to forever keep it. Quite good at keeping up this wall in any case (once a friend of mine called it that).

The themes behind what I listed would be that they're all moves that diminish my humanity, choice, power, and self-determination. This is why I find them to be controlling moves. People can do them unconsciously simply to further a hegemony without being individually controlling, but the result is I'm still going to experience it as a check on me.

Well if they are done with the intention to diminish your power and self-determination etc that's really bad controlling moves. Direct or indirect. Otoh I can see versions of some of the things in your list as ways to control the situation for own ends without intending to diminish the opponent in any way. That doesn't mean I'd agree with those moves either since they still don't take the other person into account. I guess, when seeing them as controlling also includes the assumption that they'd respond to the opponent disagreeing or fighting back in a negative way trying to control the situation and/or the person just even more strongly. And I can see how most of the stuff in the list are easily red flags in terms of making it likely that the person with such moves would respond this way.

[Chae]

I have found people of all quadras controlling. Here are some things that qualify as controlling for me:

* Denying me my point of view
* Telling me how I feel, assuming you can understand that
* Setting up situations that serve your needs and not mine
* Treating me like an object
* Gaslighting
* Discouraging me from having friends
* Leaving me to do all the grunt work
* Mansplaining or any kind of condescension
* Lying about me
* Lying to me (following a pattern of deceit)
* Trying to impose rigid gender roles on me
* Making unilateral decisions when my input should have been sought
* Using insulting language to talk about me, or directly insulting me
* Forcing me to have sex
* Threatening me
* Bullying me
* Harassing me
* Using me
* Nickel-and-diming me
* Underpaying me

Things like that. These things are actual controlling behaviors. Any type can do these things -- woot! Equal opportunity.

Oh yes. People from the Quadra called "Toxic Masculinity" have proven to demonstrate these behaviors. The four types found in this Quadra are called Psychopath, Narcissist, Abuser and CEO. A classic among these types is Enneagram 10 which describes the core fear of being castrated and called a woman, since being femininity is diminishing. Integration happens through soft and healing gay romance that will free all women and other men from this Quadra's misguided ways