istp or istj ?

[ivormcguivor]

Please help.

I have come across MBTI before and fit the ISTP profile very well. Having now learnt much about socionics I am still unable to determine if I am a socionics ISTp or ISTj, as I have personality traits described by both.

I enjoy playing sports (almost always good at them) and other games all the time, can be very lazy at times as I am always relaxing, my home is always a mess and Im always late. I am incredibly curious about the world around me and learn about them very objectivly in a non-nonsense manner. Interested in physics, maths, astromomy, psychology (how I discovered socionics), and how thing work in general. I dislike hierarchy and authority, sometimes supisious of people who seem to like the control and responsibility of high social status jobs, I often break many rules as most seem unnecessary. Many people see me as quite a frivolous person who lacks general knowledge although I often can't understand this as I have a very deep understanding of many things and a good memory for facts and figures. I tend to dress very informally and spend little time and effort on my appearance, and feel uncomfortable in formal dress.

looking at the functions I seem to use lots of but little This would probably make me ISTp, correct?

Any help would be appreciated.

[Smilingeyes]

Please help.

I enjoy playing sports (almost always good at them) and other games all the time, can be very lazy at times as I am always relaxing, my home is always a mess and Im always late. I am incredibly curious about the world around me and learn about them very objectivly in a non-nonsense manner. Interested in physics, maths, astromomy, psychology (how I discovered socionics), and how thing work in general. I dislike hierarchy and authority, sometimes supisious of people who seem to like the control and responsibility of high social status jobs, I often break many rules as most seem unnecessary. Many people see me as quite a frivolous person who lacks general knowledge although I often can't understand this as I have a very deep understanding of many things and a good memory for facts and figures. I tend to dress very informally and spend little time and effort on my appearance, and feel uncomfortable in formal dress.

looking at the functions I seem to use lots of but little This would probably make me ISTp, correct?

Any help would be appreciated.

If you used but little that would rather more probably make you and ISTj than an ISTp, but then you say that you are interested in _how_ things work and mathematics and that's you using . In the rest of what you said, there wasn't anything that points towards ISTj and very much that points toward ISTp. So out of those two choices the ISTp is a whole lot more probable.

[SportsFan]

I enjoy playing sports (almost always good at them) and other games all the time, can be very lazy at times as I am always relaxing, my home is always a mess and Im always late. I am incredibly curious about the world around me and learn about them very objectivly in a non-nonsense manner. Interested in physics, maths, astromomy, psychology (how I discovered socionics), and how thing work in general. I dislike hierarchy and authority, sometimes supisious of people who seem to like the control and responsibility of high social status jobs, I often break many rules as most seem unnecessary. Many people see me as quite a frivolous person who lacks general knowledge although I often can't understand this as I have a very deep understanding of many things and a good memory for facts and figures. I tend to dress very informally and spend little time and effort on my appearance, and feel uncomfortable in formal dress.

looking at the functions I seem to use lots of but little This would probably make me ISTp, correct?

Any help would be appreciated.

ISTP

[ivormcguivor]

Thanks for the response guys, I have looked more at the individual functions and think ISTp is right. Thanks Herzblut, I will do the Dmitry Lytov's Socionics questionaire and see what that comes up with.

[Wavebury]

can be very lazy at times

IxxP trait

Im always late.

P. An ISTJ can be late though, as my ISTJ uncle is unpunctual as hell, but generally this is a sign of P.

I often break many rules as most seem unnecessary.

P

a good memory for facts and figures.

T

looking at the functions I seem to use lots of but little This would probably make me ISTp, correct?

ISTP uses mostly.

you say that you are interested in _how_ things work and mathematics and that's you using .

I could be also. Ive noticed the extraverted/introverted aspect of a function describes how a person deals with the information related to the function, but it doesnt change the information itself. So an ineterest in anything logical could be or .

[ivormcguivor]

I have a quick question, do .....etc have the same descriptions in MBTI and Socionics or do these actual cognitive functions differ slightly between them.

[discourse]

ivormcguivor, here are some questions I would like you to ask.

1. Do you concider yourself to be a logical person?
2.What would you say to a man if he would say you are unlogical?
3.Are you forcefull and can you make others to folllow your distcipline?
3.How do you feel about when someone is being without a will?
4.What is work for you?
5.Who by point of you is a practical man?
6.Can you love someone?
7.Are you always aware what's going on between others?
8.Are you punctual?
9.How do you feel when someone is being a late?
10.When meating a new person, are you able to tell many characteristics about him?
11.Are you generator of ideas ,when new task is given for you?
12.Do you like when there has been showing of love and warm feelings around you?
13.Do you like being emotional?
14.What is comfort for you and are you good at makeing comfort?
15. When there is cold and someone is dressed loosely, then what do you do?

I hope you could answer to them! They will determine what function is placed where in your psyche.

[rainbow]

If you used but little that would rather more probably make you and ISTj than an ISTp, but then you say that you are interested in _how_ things work and mathematics and that's you using . In the rest of what you said, there wasn't anything that points towards ISTj and very much that points toward ISTp. So out of those two choices the ISTp is a whole lot more probable.

As you see, I have sofar considered myself as INTJ but lately I have reasoned about it, being aware of a needed change in my personal strategy. In the current situation (which is outside this comment!) I have concluded that being an INTJ isn´t optimal. I tried to think out how I would be(have) in a wider way and since I have been close to ISTJ earlier, I now did "became" ISTJ, close to INTJ. And still being much an INTJ (or maybe "in my heart"?!), I contend my believing that few persons are practically just one type. A type cannot be defined so exactly so overlapsing is usually there, anyway.

[rainbow]

overlapping*

Well, me being above. (Forgot to log in two times, which is required.)

[Wavebury]

ivormcguivor, here are some questions I would like you to ask.

1. Do you concider yourself to be a logical person?
2.What would you say to a man if he would say you are unlogical?
3.Are you forcefull and can you make others to folllow your distcipline?
3.How do you feel about when someone is being without a will?
4.What is work for you?
5.Who by point of you is a practical man?
6.Can you love someone?
7.Are you always aware what's going on between others?
8.Are you punctual?
9.How do you feel when someone is being a late?
10.When meating a new person, are you able to tell many characteristics about him?
11.Are you generator of ideas ,when new task is given for you?
12.Do you like when there has been showing of love and warm feelings around you?
13.Do you like being emotional?
14.What is comfort for you and are you good at makeing comfort?
15. When there is cold and someone is dressed loosely, then what do you do?

I hope you could answer to them! They will determine what function is placed where in your psyche.

Im afraid not. Male 21, I dont want to offend you or anything, but I just think these questions aerent very good, because they deal with self perception, and self perception is often misleading. This is the first thing to remember when getting into personality typing, and I wish someone had told it to me when I had gotten into it. So these questions need to be asked in a different manner because the way in which you ask them only seems misleading to me.

[ivormcguivor]

Thanks for the input guys,
I have completed the Dmitry Lytov's questionaire and will wait for the results (don't know how long they take to reply). I understand your point Cheerio, but I will give brief answers to the questions as it may help.

1. Very
2. briefly try to rationaly show that they are wrong but if I can see there mind is made up, would leave them to their incorrect assumptions.
3. I am the least forcefull person I know.
3!. Not concerened, peoples business is there own, would help if asked.
4. The 9-5 job, routine house chores etc, im laid back.
5. I dont understand the question.
6. Yes for family, I find intimate relationships hard though, never had one!(im 24!!!) im never sure what Im supposed to say or do etc!!! I have a few very good friends though.
7. Not usually, Im usually the last to know thing like that.
8. Nearly always late for things, however if it's absolutely essential that im on time, I will be.
9. Don't mind. Unless im left on my own for ages and ages waiting for people.
10. I can get a reasonable measure of people quite quickly. their motivations etc.
11. In general stick to tested methods to new tasks but when I know what I am doing I can find many ways to get the same results.
12. Of course, who dosen't?, sometimes feel uncomfortable if its excessive though.
13. Hardly ever show emotion to other people but can be taken by emotionaly moving films etc. In general definately no though.
14. Comfortable clothes (informal), sofa etc, warm house and various entertainment immediately available. I can easily put up with cold or rain etc without making a fuss though.
15. I don't usually make a fuss about things like that, if its me or someone else. I would put up with it if it were me, but if asked by someone else I would gladly give my coat and be cold myself.

Anyway, the more socionics stuff I read, the more I think I am ISTp, I wonder if that fits with the above.

I will report the results of the Dmitry Lytov's questionaire when I get them.

[Angel von Himmel]

Have you ever tried Dmitry Lytov's Socionics questionaire? Back a little more than a month ago, I was in the exact same position as you. I looked at the ISTP Myers-Briggs type description, and I thought that it fit me pretty well. Then, I came to Socionics, and I wondered whether I was ISTj or ISTp. I took the questionaire, and it turns out that I was actually an Extrovert. I thought that I was an introvert because I was used to spending time alone, but I ignored my strong , thus making me think that I was an introvert. Give it a try, it helped me tons.

Link: http://socion.hotbox.ru/MT-English.zip

Send to: socion@hotbox.ru

Tell us your results.

I had the same problem. I was thinking I was an introvert, but when after I typed my friends and family I realized I could only be an extrovert because of the type of relationships I had with them and also because I began noticing I felt better about myself and most motivated when I was around people and accepted by them. I could only conclude I was an ENTp ...

[discourse]

ivormcguivor, based on your answers to my questions, I would say, that you are INTJ. Those questions you just answered where supposed to measure what function is acting in what way and is it strong or weak. For example the queston of are you a person with strong logical thinking was meant to make sure if you were having strong . This method is widely used in Russian Socionics forum at the adress www.socionics.org . Offcuarse the method there is more advanced and people are more experienced. So, I will not give you any guarantee, but I would like to know what will be the results of the test of Lõtov. In mean time, introduce your self into the characteristics of INTj- The Analist, .

[Hugo]

My model will help you decide whether you are ISTp or ISTj.

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=577

Basically, are you more responsive to F or N? Do you have more "feeling ability" or "intuition ability"? Do you have more leaning towards people and there emotions (F) or possibilities (N)?


If F then you are ISTj. If N then ISTp.

Tell me what you think.

[Wavebury]

I give up

[Hugo]

With what?

[Wavebury]

Trying to refure others' arguements on this thread that are appearently shaky.

[Hugo]

I didn't read the thread. Just adding my opinion to the question.

[ivormcguivor]

Didn't mean to offend you cheerio by answering, I take on board your comments but answered mearly as it may have helped, but I fully understand that it may not be of any use at all.

Anyway, it dosen't matter now as I got the Dmitry Lytov's result back and im 99% certain I am ISTp.

It gave 50% ISTp
40% INTp
10% ENTp

I am definately not an E, and the INTp profiles certainly have many things that dont seem right. Also, looking at the intertype relations stuff with people whose type I know, the ISTp caertainy fits a lot better than INTp.
(they said due to translation some of the questions may have a slightly different meaning as to what was intended thus obscuring the result slightly. probably the reason for high INTp result.)

Ok, thanks for everyones help, I am in no doubt about my type now, all that is left to do is find some ENFp's

[discourse]

Okey! No offence for typeing you as INTJ. I still don't give up on my method. I need some time to practice it.

And for the Lõtovs test! Man himself glaims that he has invetned a test of 100% accuracy. But, I am rahter more sceptical. My entp friend let her group to take this test and out of 4 people only 2 were sure of how the test accurately gave them the right results. They took the the test from it's orginal language. So, we concluded that the test might nor work for the Russians in Estonia and its English version might not understand the differences of the cultures abroad the Russia.

BTW, did you send Lõtov some photos of how you look?

[ivormcguivor]

I did send some photos, but they didn't make any comments on them.

Well, I personaly think the best way to type is to learn as much as possible about the types, the theory, the functions, the intertype relations etc, and then after a test or two I think it should become apparent which type fits best.

As for INTJ, no offence taken, one of my best friends is INTJ.

[Hugo]

ivormcguivor:

Even though you know your type now, do you think my advice is helpful?

[ivormcguivor]

Yes, I do. I read the thread and took on board what you were saying and it was certainly worth concidering. I do think my worst function is my "feeling ability" as you describe it, and this is consistent with ISTp, which is another piece in the puzzle that seems to fit.

Since I have been learning about socionics, my general thoughts are the human brain is very complicated and no two people are exactly alike, but some of us do share common character traits of which socionics tries to explain. Due to the overall complexity of human psychology, the effects of external stimuli, parents, general experiences etc and differing IQ, perception of ourselves, what we would like to become, how we would like to change etc etc etc, I think no single method can determine our type with a high degree of accuracy. The only way is to use as many methods as possible and build up a picture gradually untill a particular type seems by far the most consistent and by far the more likely.

So in this context, this was yet another piece of evidence that points towards ISTp and gives me even more confidence that it is correct, and therefore it is indeed useful.

[Hugo]

When you look for your dual, try to find someone that shares similar values to you and who you have a minimum attraction to.

[Cone]

It's good to see new types popping up on this forum. What do we have so far, INTj, INTp, ISTp, ISTj, ENTp, ENFp, ESTp, INFp, INFj, ISFp, and ENTj. 11/16 so far.

As to your type, ivormcguivor, how accurately does this describe you? (from the Socionics Type Assistant Turbo)

ISTp - The Artisan

In a relationship your goal is to create luxury and comfort for you and your partner in both material in physical matters. You are practical and resourceful and have good business sense, which keeps you away from unprofitable ventures. You often find it difficult to reveal your true love and affection, and thus need an understanding partner. In others you admire inventiveness and originality.

[ivormcguivor]

hmmm, I understand that sharing values is advantageous but why do you say minimal attraction hugo?

That description is pretty good cone, as you can see:

I do think comfort is important in a relationship, I dislike any kind of hassle myself and so I think it essential to have material goods which help in this respect, like your own car for example, it just saves so much hassle having to get busses and taxis etc. As for my partner, I like to help give them the material things they need for the same reason so they are in general happier in life with less problems to deal with. This applies to all material things which provide comfort and help prevent annoying inconvienences. I am not too concerened with luxury myself as such, but I do tend to buy the most expensive things I can afford, as they tend to last longer and be better in quality and so again help to prevent problems. I think my partner (and most people) also usually appreciates luxury so I will aim for luxury to make them happy.
I am vey practical and yes, I do definately shy away from unprofitable ventures, I just can't see the point in putting in loads of effort for very little or no return. I am baffled for example that voluntary work exists, why would anyone do that! Its crazy!
I find expressing love and effection very very hard, even with my family, it always seems so embarrassing and I feel so stupid doing it, so I nearly always don't bother, I usually try showing it in other ways by giving people gifts etc instead of directly telling them.
A friend of mine is ENTp and very inventive, I have often talked to him for hours about some of the stuff he comes up with as I do genuinely admire the things he dreams up, however far fetched they are. Originality helps break the boredom that sets in from seeing the same old things over and over again, and helps you see things in new ways you had not considered before.

I hope the above makes sense.

[Hugo]

hmmm, I understand that sharing values is advantageous but why do you say minimal attraction hugo?

Fancying a woman you are going to marry is advantageous as well.

[ivormcguivor]

Yes, that makes sense.

I commented because you actually mean maximam not minimum:

minimum

• noun (pl. minima or minimums) the least or smallest amount, extent, or intensity possible or recorded.

maximum

• noun (pl. maxima or maximums) the greatest amount, size, or intensity possible or attained.

(http://www.askoxford.com/?view=uk)

:wink:

[Creepy-]

Yes, that makes sense.

I commented because you actually mean maximam not minimum

What he meant is that you need AT LEAST a minimal attraction... but more is always good too.

[Hugo]

'Guest' is right. What I am saying is that you should fancy her at least a little bit.

Analogy: One dollar is better than no dollars. But two dollars is better than one dollar.

[ivormcguivor]

Got ya

Attraction is obviously important, as we all agree.

As you can see, ISTp's are rubbish at language skills

I have a quick question, everyone's dual has the first three letters different and the last letter the same, which makes them quite different from ourselves. Therefore is it usually difficult to meet our duals given that they most likely enjoy different hobbies and enjoy talking about different things in general, making us less likely to come into contact and engage in conversation with?

[stefana]

//

[Kim]

Has anyone ever told you that they find you intimidating? If so, please try not to appear too cool when approaching an ENFp as you might scare her away. I'm not kidding.

Absolutely, I agree! I am willing to give a person time to open up to me, but I won't give anyone the time of the day who appears cold and arrogant. I can always be convinced that my first impression is wrong, but I would not approach you if I found you intimidating or arrogant.

[stefana]

//

[Kim]

There are other drawbacks :wink:
I was with an ISTP (I typed him as such, so I might be wrong...but it does fit him perfectly) for years and it worked great on some levels, but I could never quite get past his emotional restraint, among other things. But we were a very good team in other areas of life, for sure.

One major problem was that he could not deal with a stressed-out and frustrated me. It stressed him out.

[Hugo]

ivormcguivor:

It looks like there is at least one female ENFp on this forum that you could hook up with.

[ivormcguivor]

Thanks for the tip NFp- luckily I've not had anyone say i'm intimidating before, so thats good. I respect the fact some people get satisfaction from voluntary/charity work and even admire the passion people have for the cause. However for me, if I haven't enough money to retire, I will work only for money, and if I have enough money to retire, I would spent all my time doing the things I enjoy and consequently would never consider doing charity work.

I think I have met an ENFp before in a previous job, we got on well and I liked her company, she was very friendly and easy to talk to, sometimes she would act like she was drunk when completely sober!

Anyway, thanks for the input.

[stefana]

//

[Hugo]

Dear Ivor,

According to socionics you are labelled "The Craftsman" and your dual is labelled "The Psychologist". Below is a descritpiton of how things could turn out for the both of you (from http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.3.rels/index-rels.html). Sorry that the description describes the psychologist and craftsman as men:

The Craftsman easily detects smallest deviations from esthetic standards in the surrounding world; such disharmony makes him feel distressed, awakes in him a feeling of discomfort, the desire to improve the situation, to perfect what he achieved or actually possesses – not only in the material world, but in his intellectual and spiritual development as well. This is why The Craftsman is exigent to himself and often also to the others. He likes nothing drab, trite and banal, strives for improvement of his own, his friends and family, beginning from the appearance and health, and up to the mental development. He is very curious, has wide range of interests, often he is not self-confident because of increased self-criticism. He needs praise of his capabilities, encouragement of his efforts.

The Psychologist is just the kind of person who notices talents of the others, inspires them with belief in their capabilities, readily tells compliments. He notices even hidden capabilities and willingly encourages their development. This in turn very much commands respect of The Craftsman, who does not feel bored with such a partner. The Psychologist is useful to him also because he easily finds solutions to difficult situations, which would otherwise make The Craftsman feel depressed. Being thankful for that, The Craftsman takes care of the mental and external comfort of the one solving his internal problems.

The Psychologist very much needs a caring partner and finds relaxation for his emotional and restless soul in the 'quiet haven' of a friend, who is constant in his words and deeds, reliable and faithful. The Craftsman creates convenience and comfort for The Psychologist, who is not much adapted to the real life, thus giving him the opportunity to focus on spiritual and intellectual values, generate new ideas, which will bring the taste of novelty into their common affairs.

Everyday chores are usually undertaken by The Craftsman, who believes he can do them better. The Psychologist takes initiative in relations, can unite people around himself, and becomes the 'life of the party'. He gains people's favor, willingly advises on solving personal problems. He is a subtle psychologist, who understands well hidden motives of people. He emotionally demonstrates his attitude towards people; his sincerity, warmth and ingenuousness make others forgive his excessive straightforwardness and hot temper. He corrects The Craftsman's ethical mistakes, and often even his own, since he is not rancorous and likes people very much. His trustfulness disarms the incredulous Craftsman, and emotionality softens his more cold-tempered and reserved partner.

The Craftsman is reticent enough and does not like to demonstrate his feelings. He can put a distance in communication, seems to be arrogant and non-sociable. But in the very depths of his soul he is thankful to the person who takes responsibility for ethical issues on himself. He likes The Psychologist's spirit of trust, whose permanent optimism, capability of foreseeing the future and perspectives of various undertakings, finding ways out of any problems. The Psychologist raises The Craftsman's confidence of the future, decrease his skepticism and mistrust towards everything new, not well known or not proven by practice. In addition, The Craftsman is sometimes excessively nervous and mistrustful; he exaggerates possible dangers not to mention real ones. But The Psychologist, who lives more in the future than in the present, 'calculates' everything in advance and in such moments call for caution, and at the same time calms down his partner when an alarm is false.

The Craftsman is very technological and practical. He can work quickly and is well organized. He plans all stages of his work in advance, acquires all the necessary things in advance. He is enduring in perfecting details of his work, can separate important things from trifles, which is not an easy task for The Psychologist. The Psychologist's efficiency of working is high only in critical situations, while routine and monotonous, non-creative work deteriorates his vital tonus, being a source of boredom for this restless creative personality. The Psychologist gladly accepts a role of 'second' or 'assistant', which suits The Craftsman's commanding nature. The Craftsman does not like when others impose on him other ways of doing things than he would prefer. He is strives for real benefit and profit, unlike altruistic Psychologist, and this contributes to growth of material welfare of this dual pair.

The Psychologist needs a partner indulgent enough to his weak points: negligence at work, lack of consideration to rules, norms and hierarchy, outbursts of non-motivated aggression. The Craftsman is indulgent to such, sometimes they even amuse him. He likes the independent nature of The Psychologist, which does not encroach on his own independence.

The characteristic features of this dual pair are the independence from each other, as well as from others, harmony of relations and a restless spirit of creativity and self-development.

[ivormcguivor]

having not known of socionics before it's all very intriguing thats all NFp-

I'm sure all the comments above will prove useful and wow, that stuff looks good hugo, I will give it a good look at