Seriously, someone needs to strap some electrodes under people's armpits and do actual research.
Seriously, someone needs to strap some electrodes under people's armpits and do actual research.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
Come back when you are done with the personal remarks. And when you manage to recognize that you are doing exactly what you accused me of (cherry picking). Then maybe I can discuss this topic with you in an objective manner.
Oh and as for the ESE: that's one specific small thing you tried to learn from the ESE. Compare this to Musk doing all these things in his whole life. Not one specific small repeatable thing......
You're taking Christ's name in vain, my Saviour, don't ever come to me with such personal remarks, and expect me to accept them.
Furthermore, you're offering nothing for Musk's typing. As a nano-manager, he does not fit LIE or democratic quadra at all.
Actually, you don't need to speak to me at all until you manage to do so in a polite and calm way
@at sirac son of sirac, I think you inferred what @Myst did not imply.
he also looks a lot like the poster @peteronfireee who types as LSI..http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post669098 .. he's like a younger Elon Musk
I'm not religious, let alone a Christian. This isn't a religious forum. You did the personal remarks, not me. I'm calm, but yep I'm blunt in telling you what the problem is.
Finally, to fix the fact distortion with you claiming that I didn't offer anything for Elon Musk's type: I already underlined that LIE thing: "maximum attention to production, new technologies, human resources". It does neatly fit Gamma NT and is a fundamental part of how LIE thinks.
That's not related to Ni or Ne IMO.
All these arguments are because our understanding of functions (theory as a whole) are not the same. Elon Musk has strong Se and what he is doing is no way related to intuition. But how can we prove it It's all on how we perceive functions. And for now, I tend to agree with Gulenko understanding of the theory.
I noticed intuitives often don't understand sensors and the opposite, so thinking that Gulenko lost touch with reality is very Se. And LIIs are a strange, their conclusions are often weird to others, if you're not able to connect the dots, you won't be able to understand where they're coming from.
At first I thought ILE but didn't know much about him...LIE makes more sense since he is concerned with seeing his projects realized in the physical world.
LSI? I think LIE is better beause he's a kind of pioneer, likes to explore new frontiers etc. I can't see an LSI with that kind of thinking, not like that or to that extent at least.
I'm not a fan of DCNH as you know, but, when it's used this way, it's really saying, a different type of LSI. Much the same as when elaborating on differences within type such as, one is say, an LSI E8, or an ESI E4.
Rather than enneagram, Gulenko is trying to use socionics to explain differences within type, so for that at least I give it some credit.
But for practical purposes it's saying the same thing: a different variety of a type.
I also see Elon Musk strapping his own car onto the spaceX rocket as a rather beta thing to do. The payload could have been used for scientific equipment, it offers no practical purpose other than to serve as a grandiose statement, which is rather Beta than any other quadra. Alpha for the scientific equipment, gamma and delta for the practical purposes - beta for the powerful emotive statement it makes.
If you never knew it was Elon Musk, Beta would be assumed as the type most likely to do such a thing, because it is a rather symbolically beta statement.
Well Putin is Ti-LSI which is very different from Se-LSI.
Defending and propagating his business is a hallmark of the LSI Se subtype.
"... [LSI-Se] He is persistent in achieving his goals. Orients quickly in extreme situations, displaying considerable willpower, endurance, and practical resourcefulness. Able to protect the interests of his project or business with energy and obstinacy in various situations. Usually confident in his opinions, which he bases on facts and his experience. Sometimes manifests excessive obstinacy and intractability. Dislikes being objected to or when someone else tries to impose their will or working methods on him. Inquisitive, accumulates useful information. Often has interests in areas of morality, art, and legislation. Refers to novel and differing points of view with distrust and suspicion, since it is quite difficult for him to change his positions and way of thinking.
Can apply pressure on his subordinates if he is in a leadership position, forcing them to work conscientiously; inclined to "tighten the screws" giving instructions in imperative intonation; will check if his orders have been carried out. If his arguments are not taken under consideration, may flare up and try to force others to do everything as it should be done. Internally disapproves of violations of established regulations. Assesses and judges work by the difficulties and challenges that were overcome during its implementation. Applies the same requirements to everyone without taking individual abilities and circumstances into account.
From time to time needs an emotional discharge to alleviate his inner tensions. In such cases does not hide his emotions and waits for reciprocal sincerity from his partner. Finds it difficult to attain inner balance. At times he loses his restraint and with an outburst can undermine previously established relationships. He is not always able to maintain stable and friendly relations with other people due to his intransigence and straightforwardness of his views and opinions. Despite this, he is usually quite hardy and enduring, both on emotional and physical level."
http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...j_.28Se-LSI.29
It is, here is how he describes himself:
@0:53 Elon Musk: "I seem to have a high innate drive. That's been true ever since I was a little kid. You know, I really had a very strong drive, did all sorts of risky things when I was a kid that I've ... like why did I do these things, they are crazy [laughs]."
In Elon's own words, his Ni was nowhere near catching up with the impulsive stuff his Se was driving him to do.
This is Se ego with an accentuated Se af.
Next, he says this: Elon Musk: "I care a lot about the truth of things and trying to understand the truth of things. I think that's important. If you're going to come up with some solution then the truth is really really important."
Much like Jordan Peterson his Ti attention is drawn to trying to understand the truth, except that being Ti-Se and SP-first, rather than Ti-Ne and SX-first, in his words it is the "truth of things" rather than Jordan's SX-Ti "personal truth".
Moving along @2:22 Elon Musk speaking about the school he's organizing for his kids: "And making all children go in the same grade at the same time, like an assembly line."
Clearly nothing like LIE or Gamma values here. This is an ST attitude and primarily this has been prescribed to LSIs and LSEs to some extent: "LSI - brings to automation, formalization, petrification." (link)
Further along @2:55 Elon says the following: Elon Musk: "It's important to teach problem solving, or teach to the problem not the tools. Let's say you're trying to teach people about how engines work. You can start by ... a more traditional traditional way would be to teach all about the screwdrivers and the wrenches, and you're gonna have a course of screwdrivers and a course of wrenches. This is a very difficult way to do it. A much better way would be like: "Here's the engine - now let's take it apart. How are we going to take it apart ... huh, you need a screwdriver - that's what a screwdriver is for, you need a wrench - that's what a wrench is for. And then a very important thing happens is that the relevance of tools becomes important."
Teaching his kids and anyone else around him the importance of tools to solve some concrete problem, like taking an engine apart, is some standard ST male parenting. Yet the n-th thing he says about himself that runs at odds with any gamma nt typings.
I'm still looking for dynamism.
I can actually support LSI. His speaking style:
{fact 1, fact 2, fact 3, fact,..., fact n} --> {aimed result, other results}
So yeah. Thinking style is very similar to mine only that it aims for different results.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
I can easily see him as LSI. Reminds me of my father, in fact, who I type at LSI, except Musk is more relaxed than him.
Hard to imagine him as an extravert. Takes him too long to formulate his thoughts - works well for LSI though. I also don't see the confidence in relaying his thoughts that I would expect from Te base.
I see nothing in here that indicates egoic Se. LIEs often like certain risky things more than LSIs.
What kind of truth?Next, he says this: Elon Musk: "I care a lot about the truth of things and trying to understand the truth of things. I think that's important. If you're going to come up with some solution then the truth is really really important."
Much like Jordan Peterson his Ti attention is drawn to trying to understand the truth, except that being Ti-Se and SP-first, rather than Ti-Ne and SX-first, in his words it is the "truth of things" rather than Jordan's SX-Ti "personal truth".
Why does he want it this way? As for "petrification", no, Musk is way way more dynamic than that.Moving along @2:22 Elon Musk speaking about the school he's organizing for his kids: "And making all children go in the same grade at the same time, like an assembly line."
Clearly nothing like LIE or Gamma values here. This is an ST attitude and primarily this has been prescribed to LSIs and LSEs to some extent: "LSI - brings to automation, formalization, petrification." (link)
That tools thing is very Te to me lolFurther along @2:55 Elon says the following: Elon Musk: "It's important to teach problem solving, or teach to the problem not the tools. Let's say you're trying to teach people about how engines work. You can start by ... a more traditional traditional way would be to teach all about the screwdrivers and the wrenches, and you're gonna have a course of screwdrivers and a course of wrenches. This is a very difficult way to do it. A much better way would be like: "Here's the engine - now let's take it apart. How are we going to take it apart ... huh, you need a screwdriver - that's what a screwdriver is for, you need a wrench - that's what a wrench is for. And then a very important thing happens is that the relevance of tools becomes important."
Teaching his kids and anyone else around him the importance of tools to solve some concrete problem, like taking an engine apart, is some standard ST male parenting. Yet the n-th thing he says about himself that runs at odds with any gamma nt typings.
No, it's (what he wants to do), isOriginally Posted by Myst
And before you say, for instance, 'why?', maybe you could explain why it's not
His twitter is full of mishaps And a whole lot of shenanigans that you won't see with LSI, that one would be a very weird suggestion for him. It all reads LIE, to me he's one of the most clear-cut examples of the type
He's talking about the understanding of things, how an engine works (understanding) rather than how to work the engine, ie wrenches, screwdrivers etc, Te is the function of information (using the wrenches, the screwdrivers etc), his focus is on the understanding.
Of course T types can and do have access to both Te and Ti, but if you are talking about what he's focusing on (I am), again it's
Yes, Te is dynamic information. I use it very rarely in that way. I organize information into connected intermediate steps that look like instruction sheets. I don't see it as action. It would just confuse me.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
OK here's the original quote. "Elon Musk: "It's important to teach problem solving, or teach to the problem not the tools. Let's say you're trying to teach people about how engines work. You can start by ... a more traditional traditional way would be to teach all about the screwdrivers and the wrenches, and you're gonna have a course of screwdrivers and a course of wrenches. This is a very difficult way to do it. A much better way would be like: "Here's the engine - now let's take it apart. How are we going to take it apart ... huh, you need a screwdriver - that's what a screwdriver is for, you need a wrench - that's what a wrench is for. And then a very important thing happens is that the relevance of tools becomes important.""
The first version is Ti. His version is Te. What you say is in line with that. The first approach discusses understanding of the details of the engine stuff. It's much more Static information (Ti). His approach instead discusses how to directly use the tools by simply saying what the tools are used for. Very Dynamic information (Te). I prefer the first version myself.
Yeah, my Ti also has this Static instruction sheets thing too. Just like the approach Elon Musk dislikes in the quote. Not action like Elon Musk presents his logic.
@Myst, I think it's fair to say we might have different ideas of Ti and Te. Musk is explaining it from the bottom up (understanding, which according to the socionics literature is Ti) and showing a downplay of the importance, or, priority, of Te (knowing, how to use things). I'm not saying that Musk's approach is wrong, but i'm saying, to describe it as Ti or Te, it is Ti based on the official socionics literature.
OK so it may not be that it is Ti specifically in total (but it's enough Ti that it's his preference), but all the other evidence in the thread with this, together, is LSI for him. I haven't seen anything really to say he's not LSI, aka, LIE, except some vague things like, 'he invents things', which, given evidence in balance, is in favor of LSI for me, rather than LIE. However, it's a socionics type, the worlds not going to end whichever he's typed, LSI, LIE, or something else.
But for this one, it happens to be i'm agreeing with Gulenko on this typing (LSI.)
Honestly, no, Musk isn't explaining a goddam thing. He just tells you what each tool is for. That's not explaining deeply. It's missing the point to me as an LSI. Those "theoretical" courses he dislikes (like LIEs typically do) are what I want for my Ti to deal with the topic of the engines stuff. I can get by with just Te information like what Musk gives out but I'm "meh" about it.
And what I am saying is all according to Socionics literature, too. And last but not least, it strongly matches my own observations.
How the hell is "inventing things" (and all the risky business-y approach he got) vague?
Elon Musk is pretty meh about Te info & operations, he has been outsourcing any organization and business operations to others:
"Elon Musk: A lot of people think I'm kind of a business person or something. Which is fine, I guess, business is fine. But like ummm really like with Space X Gwynne Shotwell is the chief operating manager, she kinda manages the eagle finance sales, and umm the general business activity."
But it's Te itself - delegation in a shrewd dynamic way. Especially in the case of LIE with high Intuition seeing options well.
Or do you really expect him to do every detail himself? These are huge businesses, managing them on the top level is already enough of a Te task.
@silke, how do you conclude that what he was talking about was not Te? Outsourcing is efficient and is what you do if you want to get a lot done in a short amount of time. No one in their right mind would try to do every little detail themselves, like making their own nuts and bolts. You can't develop the expertise fast enough to be taken seriously. You have to rely on other companies which have experience doing things, and you just act as an integrator. You sell the idea, you outsource everything that can be outsourced, and you only keep in-house the expertise that you can't find already in existence elsewhere. You inspect their incoming work before you integrate it and you promote your successes so you get more business. Plus you have people who keep track of the money.
I spend most of my time on engineering and interfacing with customers and a lot less on finding new business, but I'm acutely aware that other people keep the place running.
The space business was basically handed to Musk because congress wanted the space program to go private. He didn't really have to look too hard for that. I don't think he entirely planned it, either.
He seems embarrassed that he can't really explain what he does all day. I relate this to the idea that LIE's have an easy time accomplishing tasks and a hard time explaining why they are doing them. Musk may have had an Ah-Ha moment there in the interview, when he was trying to define what he does. His mind might have inadvertently strayed into "And why am I spending my day like that?" territory.
I was wavering between LIE and ILE for Musk, but @Myst's argument above about screwdrivers and engines convinced me that he's LIE.
*EDIT* I see that I just reiterated most of Myst's points. I need to learn to type faster.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-25-2018 at 10:24 PM.