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Last edited by hag; 08-05-2017 at 08:16 AM.
Apparently the Rus-sociosphere classifies Aglaya Ivanovna Prokovyevna as EII(see first translated comment after the initial list), from Dostoyevsky's The Idiot. She is strong-willed and does damage while acting for her own benefit, iirc.
Reason is a whore.
villain and EII match badly
this type is lawfull and heedful to people. it's hard to describe naturally a villain with such traits
Mostly this. Although type is not associated with crime I feel that EII can go wrong with their ideal expectations. I recall an EII who may expect her daughter to stay committed in a bad relationship in the hopes of working it out but if the EII notices the health of someone deteriorate and this becomes significant she will retract from her ideals. That ideal is "a relationship of husband and wife was made in holy union and it SHOULD not be split easy without a good effort in working things out."
Another ideal for an EII is "young ladies should not wear promiscuous clothing" hence she may seem strict to those who are around her.
Villain? I'm not sure if I can see an EII becoming honestly hated as we are easy to forgive and generally kind and most of our values are humanitarian in nature.
EII will become frustrated and get angry (who doesn't?) but they don't want a significant break in relations.
There's one character on the Brothers Karamazov who is odd misunderstood and reactive. He is the closest resemblance to a disturbed EII. I'm going to leave it to you to find him we may discuss it when you do
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 07-20-2016 at 05:22 AM.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Not all EIIs have the ideals you've mentioned. Especially the one about promiscuous clothing, ESPECIALLY in these modern times. Also, not all EIIs believe in the institution of marriage. i , personally, wouldn't want to have any formal wedding function and find it hard to think about getting kids. So that's more of a generalization, don't you think?
C-EII-INFj 4w3 Sx/sp 479
What we need to remember is all Fi is NOT created equal.
This guy:
http://psychopass.wikia.com/wiki/Shogo_Makishima
Literally describes him as a "humanist" on the dark side. He's also all about individuality and twisted morals.
"outwardly disdains humanity's way of living, considering humans worthless"
"Everyone is alone. Everyone is empty. People have no longer any need of others. You can always find a substitute for any talent. Any relationship can be replaced. That's the world I grew tired of…"
I never saw EII among clear bad people and it's too hard to describe such contradictory personage. It's like to write serious horror story with mad rabbit who hunts for tourists. Can there be "unhealthy and bad" rabbits? Maybe. Now think how to write all this not in trash genre.
while rabbits may bite peoplethey are surely capable of wrongdoing just as any human
they can be too pacifisthow do their negative characteristics manifest at unhealthy levels?
To understand types you need common manifestations. While what you are seeking for is 0.01% probability of manifestation.I cannot claim to have full understanding of a type if I do not recognize their various manifestations.
Interesting topic!
I would say Himemiya Anthy from anime series Revolutionary Girl Utena could easily be typed as an EII, although she does exhibit also typical SEI-Si characteristics (understandably, with fictional characters, they don't really have information metabolism and thus no sociotype so they are usually a mix of what a number of sociotypes tend to display).
Major spoilers for the entirety of the show:
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Gulenkos plus minus system can be explained here but notice in my speech I often say "if that person" referring to the individual
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I just thought that Lars von Trier's female protagonists are often 'EIIs'. I haven't seen his movies in ages but in Antichrist, the heroine drives herself literally crazy (crazy evil) with guilt, such Fi thing. in Dogville, the heroine is impossibly kind and giving towards everybody and she sets no borders of her own, with that actually provoking townfolks to abuse her more and more to the point of breaking when she snaps and comes with vengeance. She is enneagram 9, as EIIs often are, and rare occurrences of 'elephant's rage' in otherwise stoic Nines are part of their description. That's the Dogville heroine.
In Breaking Waves the heroine sacrifices her own morals to fulfill the wish of her beloved husband who had become paralyzed. A martyr, in EII's description. Which brings me back to Himemiya Anthy because this is exactly what she does.
Anthy's evil deeds source out from many things in fact, the main being her codependency and utter devotion to a loved one who had been wronged and fundamentally hurt, the willingness to stand by him no matter what -, for that she sacrifices her morals. She becomes a martyr in her wrong doing. Since I like her so much, here's a fanvid about Anthy, summarizing and depicting pretty much what I've said so far on evil-martyr-EII front.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IULQ3N8eE7I
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
An EII anti-hero could be one that is so focused on their own ideals or pet projects (or even trying to be personally healthy) that they let important, action-requiring things slide. Or they don't recognize what's important to some people, ignoring it and not playing along with social structures the way many people feel it needs to be done.
So, being "bad" by letting bad or damaging things happen.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
i'd say eiis could be manipulate into unwittingly doing bad things more likely than outrightly doing so of their own volition
they could probably be used for their air of sincerity or naivete about the uglier things that might be at play politically or otherwise
or if they are in a situation where they don't realize they make a fi offense and then do the ensuing sate of feeling bad about it could be problematic
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I find that unfairly condescending.
From where I stand, people with weak Fi look more naive - but that's understandable since it is the area where I get to notice the naivete, whereas in, say Se matters, I often don't until it becomes blatantly obvious.
I agree with you that there are certainly a lot of things Se-wise that fly over our heads. But this is just one plane of the game. EII antagonists focus on Fi manipulation to counterbalance that disadvantage (and EII have concrete, '+Fi' element to that, which means projecting it onto others, very useful in that case). So an antagonist EII may form any kind of relationship with chosen people (Ne helps them to fish out those who show potential), then change attitudes of said chosen people towards certain goals (Ne helps there, too) to suit EII's purpose, direct/mess with their relationships and so on.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I call myself batyote and I fight crime at night.
this reminds me of the character of peter petrelli in 'heroes' who i see as EII, though the show often makes him a little too action-oriented and sometimes seems to push him into ESI territory. in season 1 he's easily EII and i kind of see season 1 peter as the "essence" of what the character is even though it is warped possibly a little too much after. but i think 'heroes' tried to use the excuse that when you give a "normal person" a lot of power they do end up being warped by it... i just think they went too far with their character acrobatics often. in peter's case they'll often use powers or alternate timelines to try to still keep it all "in character" but it's a bad magician trick (i didn't think it held the character together).
anyway, peter does approach crossing the line from hero to anti-hero or villain several times:
ps: this character is never an antagonist, but i wasn't able to think of one... i'm still searching though.
Last edited by marooned; 07-20-2016 at 06:15 PM.
I wonder if this thread would get more examples if placed in the Beta quadra? Stereotypically, wouldn't members of an opposing quadra find greater faults with their "opposites"? In here, it's like asking, "Find something bad about what you like and are comfortable with."
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
I don't think so, mostly because the biggest critic we get is about being sanctimonious and inept, not traits typical villains have except in comedy. I think it's the Se polr that makes us neither villains nor heroes. We lack the drive to leave our footprints on the environment.
The gardener is but a dream of the garden.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I'm guessing an EII that turns villain would do so not out of the desire for the material gain that comes from crime, but out of pure passionate hatred and desire for revenge. I read a theory once that a certain bad guy in history particularly hated Jews because he got rejected to a Jewish art school (not sure if that's actually true), so that could be the type of thing that could lead an EII down the path to hatred and the darkside maybe. I think you could make an argument that Sandman in Spiderman 2 could be EII, he just stole money to help his daughter pay for medical expenses. He seemed to forgive Spiderman at the end and go about his way.
No way
Hasn't anyone read Van Gogh diaries? He just lived a meager existence because he was poor and could not figure out a way to make money and market his paintings, he got into a lot of emotional sadness and mania due to loneliness and lack of companionship and ideal love, and then killed himself. He detached from external things that could bring him happiness and didn't try to have fun. A single tasked and amazing at it because of his approach
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
@Starfall what does your sister think of this
What is she capable of doing
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
EII are not vindictive even if we say "I'll kill the person who hurts my loved ones" those are just sayings like little men syndrome lol
I think EII maybe persistent and annoying
Also EII suck everything in and eat at themselves emotionally. They are not very external.
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Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
EII are not vindictive even if we say "I'll kill the person who hurts my loved ones" those are just sayings like little men syndrome lol
I think EII maybe persistent and annoying
Also EII suck everything in and eat at themselves emotionally. They are not very external.
oh - really?
"I think EII maybe persistent and annoying "
ah -
Last edited by UDP; 07-22-2016 at 01:53 AM.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Itachi from Naruto is an EII villain, but as the story unfolds you actually just see hes a character capable of doing greatly horrific things to protect what he holds as more important (his baby bro). Ultimately he's a a neutral character capable of such honorable good deeds its almost unworldly, and just makes himself look like the bad guy to preserve the good hes done
EII and villain arent contradictory imo, they just dont make for as interesting of a villain in a novel format.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Satan. Prometheus. Persephone.
Not sure they're properly EII "bad heroes", they were just following the own visions, which differed from the mainstream and values. So, they've been labeled as outcasts from "society".
I think this could be a trait of EII. We can get extremely stubborn in our quest for what it's true for us.
@Minde has " "antagonized" " people here. Just ask them how they see her.
Terms such as these been thrown around: stubborn, self righteous, meddling , favoritism
I have heard of other EIIs, sometimes by other quadras discontent, that they can use a lame sense of morality to avoid seeing a situation for what it is, or seeing how their framing of situations is problematic for some, especially those they disagree with.
I can also see EIIs (Dopestoyvesky) becoming so self-intoxicated or depressed that they are basically dysfunctional and could let other people down, or, in critical moments, fail or fall victim to others schemes. Or potentially have their 'powers' of insight or diplomacy unknowingly be used for nefarious purposes, or potentially become consumed by an evil they were trying to remedy.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Gus from Breaking Bad.
Cipher is a perfect example.
Here's another female EII-Ne antagonist:
lmao
Of course, Hannibal Lecter (EII-Fi):
Lecter essentially has the same style of information processing as Catherine Trammel.
Fi cognition is an internal mirror of other people's inner worlds. It would be like having another person inside your skin, that you're constantly introspecting to. Fi has heightened capacity to experience that other person's thoughts/memories/goals/discomforts/impressions and grasp the other persons' psychology as if it were organic to their own. See the car-ride clip from basic instinct. in the meantime, the EII's own thoughts/memories/goals/discomforts/drives are pushed out of cognition and wind up in the PoLR.
Fi/Ne cognition excels at envisioning/anticipating/forecasting immediate and distant futures for the person....so the possibile ways in which the surrounding context will effect that person's psychology. in the clip you see lecter fishing for information that he can use to deepen his internal mirror of clarice.
EII vs IEE: The difference between Fi/Ne and Ne/Fi is Fi/Ne is drained by any environment/situation where they aren't directly involved with the person/people they have internally mirrored. Ne/Fi mirroring cognition reflects more the other person's external world and outer responses/inflections but doesn't go as inward. Ne/Fi mirroring changes rapidly from one environment to the next and just mirrors enough to adapt/blend in socially. It's very easy to tell who the EII has in their internal mirror because that's who they will constantly talk and/or wonder about.
Last edited by Kill4Me; 02-10-2018 at 10:14 PM.
Here are the tropes that most EII (and IEE) villains will usually fall into:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...tifiesTheMeans
Basically a villain of this nature usually has humanitarian/utopian ideals they have taken way too far and will not compromise on. Even worse, they have somehow got into a position of power, leading to extremely negative consequences for everyone around them.
The protagonist in a situation like this will probably be a Ni ego anti-hero of some sort, the moral theme being that good intentions do not always lead to good outcomes.
The Xenogears/saga series had ethical-oriented villians:
http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Karellen - Very tragic EII anti-villian, you can easily tell from reading his quotes
and his beta counterpart from a similar game
http://xenosaga.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhelm - IEI
In spite of stereotypes, I feel EII's make excellent villains, albeit tragic.
Nobody can really come up with a good exampme, beacause all the "cool" EIIs are mistyped as IEIs anyway.
vespertine, I think I've finally got it
haku from naruto
haku was a young boy who inherited a rare ninja technique from his mother, which rendered both of them a threat to their village, which was pillaged by ninja that wielded similar ninja techniques in the past, so his father and a mob of villagers banded together to kill his mother, but when they tried to kill haku, his ninja technique activated and wiped the mob out. that's when orphaned little haku met zabuza (ninja with questionable morale) who proposed that haku become his new "weapon", which haku gladly accepted, as it gave him a "purpose", even if he was too young to comprehend the nature of his newfound "purpose". however, all throughout their murderous escapades together, haku made a point to cause the least amount of damage possible. at times he'd even put his opponents in a death-like trance to dissuade them from fighting any further, in order to preserve their lives... but haku's soft-hearted nature aside, he was - for all intents and purposes - still an "antagonist" and it wasn't until the arc unfolded that we got a peek into his past and realized the "good" underlying the "evil". haku had merely formed an unlikely alliance with someone who coerced haku into doing his dirty work for him.
I think this is the most likely path for EII antagonists. their naivete is taken advantage of by someone with an "evil" agenda, either because 1. they have no real say in the matter - caught between a rock and a hard place - so they pursue that path but they do so with a humanitarian bend by creating the illusion that they're doing more "evil" than they really are, or 2. they're tricked into it by being offered love, or even kindness, under the false pretense that their actions will make the community or the world a better place, and in turn, they partake in "evil" words or deeds without realizing that they are.
Last edited by wasp; 10-07-2017 at 04:23 AM.
I think the evil we see in others is in large part projection rooted in the need to see the need for our gifts in the other such that the projection is most "valid" as applied to our dual. thus when we speak of evil we rarely see ourselves for what we are, which I think in the case of EII would actually be a failure of Ti Se, or a more picturesque way to put it would be: the failure to get off the couch. the real EII villian would be the total slob that can't make a coherent impact on anything or anyone... when we talk about the misguided but well intentioned misdeeds we're really talking about our dual and I actually think our vision of that is instructive as to our own type. in other words, EII is psychologically predisposed to find certain things in need of assistance but it is in many ways the projection of the ego's capabilities of offering correction to those who need them most, which would be those people who act in accordance with shared values, but imperfectly. that would be essentially "same" (rather than "other") i.e. fundamentally "familiar" yet "wrong" people (wasp seems to be describing LSE or maybe ILE, to me) etc (i.e. those close enough that our advice would apply to them and is welcome versus to those whom it is alien, even wilting when applied to them: conflictors, etc)
Dostoevsky himself explores this a bit when he imagines the devil as coming in the form of something we least expect: mediocre, underwhelming, disappointing, etc.. that is the true "evil" in EII
whereas to be a villain in the traditional storybook sense you already possess a great many heroic qualities, especially if they applied to EII. its hard to imagine an asskicking world changing EII who is also a villian because they wouldn't really be evil... however it is easy to imagine an asskicking world changing SLE who is a villian according to what an EII values. In some sense the nature of entertaining fiction is anathema to creating a centerpiece out of EII as villian, it is in some sense a contradiction...
an EII villian in fiction would look like heroin, not hero, it would tempt others by lulling them into complacency via a false morality that inured them to their misdeeds and lead them down a road wherein they were self satisfied with an empty existence: essentially using Fi and Ne as a way to justify inaction and lack of positive change to the absolute corruption and degradation of those around them, but not in an aggressive offensive manner, but in a self consumptive totally bland way. think those people in the grocery store you can hardly bear to look at...
films like requiem for a dream come closest to portraying the darkside of EII as far as I can tell