And... how to use all of that in a concise way?
And... how to use all of that in a concise way?
By use I mean, how to apply it when typing? How tangible is the method? Knowing that each type has two egos doesn't really help, there has to be a strategy on how to spot how it manifests. Your model, as well thought out as it is, is useless when you can't take it to figure out something in an effective and realistic way.
You can apply it the same way as Model A. Model D will actually make typing easier, since you now know that LIE sometimes looks like LSI. You will also be able to distinguish between clearly extroverted LIEs and ambiverted LIEs.
If the LIE is in an introverted environment then the "LSI-ness" is noticeable, just like my "ENFp-ness" is noticeable in an extroverted environment.
I think this model is well-thought-out enough to not be completely silly but I still think it's sort of overcomplicating things at this point. Could you explain the subtypes more please? Thanks!
Anyways, I think SEEs being into law is quite obvious just from Model A. They have a hidden agenda, so external facts () combined with power () lends itself well to law. It's the same as how xII tend to have complicated personal care routines, xSI like sci-Fi and fantasy, or xIE are into weapons and martial arts often. HA also explains pretty well why people can get mistaken for their benefactor: people see the HA function, and then the creative for the benefactor is one of the strong Id functions on the actual type. That doesn't mean Model D is wrong, just that it's not necessary to explain that.
Last edited by Pallas; 10-12-2016 at 09:34 PM.
There are 100 subtypes in my system. A very extroverted LIE is subtype LIE-x,1. A very introverted ILI is subtype ILI-x,1. An ambiverted LIE is subtype LIE-x,10. An ambiverted ILI is subtype ILI-x,10. Ambiverted subtypes use their secondary functions much more often than clearly introverted or extroverted subtypes.
An LIE with very strong strong functions and very weak weak functions (which is the only way functions can be accentuated according to me) is subtype LIE-1,x. An LIE with very weak strong functions and very strong weak functions is subtype LIE-10,x.
I don't agree with the notion of "valued" functions. High dimensional functions are preferred. Low dimensional functions are not preferred. Weak "valued" or verbal functions correspond to "I want". This is not what we actually do.Anyways, I think SEEs being into law is quite obvious just from Model A. They have a hidden agenda, so external facts () combined with power () lends itself well to law. It's the same as how xII tend to have complicated personal care routines, xSI like sci-Fi and fantasy, or xIE are into weapons and martial arts often. HA also explains pretty well why people can get mistaken for their benefactor: people see the HA function, and then the creative for the benefactor is one of the strong Id functions on the actual type. That doesn't mean Model D is wrong, just that it's not necessary to explain that.
My view on Se is closer to Berens' descriptions than Socionics' descriptions, so Se is not just about "power" (according to me).
http://www.socionics.com/rel/bn.htm
"The Beneficiary thinks of the Benefactor as an interesting and meaningful person, usually over-evaluating them in the beginning. " So ILI thinks LSI is interesting etc... really? Model D shows that the intertype relations chart must be modified.
If you argue that one sees Ne because it is a strong Id function, then you must also argue that one doesn't see Fi because it is weak, right?
Last edited by Petter; 10-13-2016 at 08:51 AM.
This is an indirect argument for Model D (with ILI's Ti-, Fi-, Fe+ and Te+ being accepting functions):
https://translate.yandex.ru/translat...i-a&lang=ru-en
Their research shows that IEI's Ni (and other functions as well) is both accepting and producing in Model A. If that actually was true in Model A, then we would not see the difference between IEI and EIE.
This indirectly supports Model D since all functions have an accepting + and a producing - , and vice versa.
It is a fact that at least 10-15% of all mathematicians are ILI.
It is a fact that mathematicians sometimes review theorems.
Ti+ (L+) means maximizing the positive (logical) and avoiding the negative (illogical).
Conclusion: SSS Model A does not work!
SSS:
+L — logicality, compliance with logicality in any details, strict logic, non-recognition of illogicality, orientation on clarification of details, aspiration to split up, detail, concretize. Concrete usage of rules, order, consistency (legislation, resolution, regulations, rules, instructions, etc.).
−L — illogicality and logicality, compliance with orderliness and logicality in the broad sense, lax logic; global, universal, abstract logic, general regularities.
This is why I think Model D is accurate.
All types have two egos according to this model, so LIE has TeNi and TiSe. But most of the time the LIE does not look like an LSI. Instead, he (or she) uses TiSe to support TeNi. Te- is about imaginary organizations (in its broadest sense). For example, an LIE sees organizational improvements at a workplace. If the LIE wants to specify or concretize these ideas, he needs to apply some kind of logical structure. That is Ti+ (... it doesn't matter if it is in his head or on paper). And it is not Ti- since that's an imaginary logical structure. So drawing a new flowchart involves Ti+.
LII has these egos: TiNe and TeSi. An LII sees new logical structures. If the LII wants to simplify or modify these structures, he needs Te+ (and Si-). For example, a mathematical object is Ti- and a calculation that follows from it is Te+.
ILI has these egos: NiTe and NeFi. An ILI sees new scenarios (and patterns). The problem is that animate objects are unpredictable. So if the ILI wants to specify the scenarios, he needs to consider potential reactions from people, animals etc. That is Ne-.
A conscious NiFe or FeNi does not complement ILI's NiTe. NiFe visualizes a different scenario and FeNi focuses on emotional presentations, which don't affect NiTe directly. NiTe is affected by (potential) words and action.
Last edited by Petter; 01-12-2018 at 10:26 PM.
Here's an example which illustrates 'plus' and 'minus'. (We need 16 functions!)
A woman is crying. (Another person's) Si+ notices her tear-stained eyes etc. Si+ is good at details, like facial features. A 'plus' function deals with 'how' and 'what' questions.
Fe- wants to know why the woman is crying. Therefore Fe- makes an emotional evaluation of this event and other events (in the real world). Maybe there was a row. N.B. Ni- (and Ne-) is useless here. A 'minus' functions deals with 'why' questions.
Fe+ wants to define emotional behaviors. She is crying, but is it justified? Fe+ starts speculating about this event.
Ni- visualizes different scenarios which support the Fe+ judgement. For example, the woman had a row with her 4 year old child and she started crying. This seems ridiculous. Are there any scenarios which could explain this behavior?
Last edited by Petter; 01-15-2018 at 09:17 AM.
Cool + rad I made Model W based on asking/declaring rings, and afaik Model D's onto the same stuff, but cleaner and more fleshed out. Ran into this @ PerC, I got reading to do.
I've settled on vital ring being free of definite permutation. Element soup. A and D-primary have vital ring deadlocked against mental ring. D-secondary is major, maybe main way forward. Ask/decl w posi/nega align for intra-person benefit ring analogue thingy, the good stuff flows, and super-ego bounds become less imprisoning.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
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Yarr lemme link, plz pardon mess:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...FIAN-SOCIONICS
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
More contradictory models, yea! Or semi-contradictory.
Sometimes, it all boils down to: show me the data.
Model T is completely different. It comes from ego.
In a way when you have thrown enough time to socionics you need to build something seemingly concrete, I think.
I'm still waiting for better described methodology for Model S, @Sol.
It would be nice to have chart of model makers about their education and interests.
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+ and - signs are a situational subset akin to Reinen dichotomies. They generally just get in the way
Positivist and negativist types could perhaps be explained by +/-. But a Reinin trait does not cause +/-. And I disagree with you, +/- is important ... it is caused by the blocking of functions and all types need both versions. For example, inductive reasoning is not possible without intuition.
Btw, I am skeptical of Reinin dichotomies (and so is SSS).
You are making a nice effort with this model, and are on the right track on some issues, but you are attributing causes incorrectly, and muddling up things a bit. For example, LIE and LSI are similar because their base and DS are the same but inverted, whereas LIEs are also similar (more so I think) to EII because their creative and HA are the same (but inverted). The creative of LSI, is in LIE's PoLR, so the similarities end there.
The first step towards developing sign-related theories is agreeing on what each +/- version of each IM actually means. Then, it will be very easy to observe when someone is using one or another, and the rest of the theory can be developed.
Well, it depends on how you define the functions/IM elements. This is my view:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...r-IM-elements)
Te and Ti are not the extroverted and the introverted versions of the same kind of logic.
I don't think the vital functions are obvious in a type. Do you? How do you notice ILI's and LIE's vital Ti?
I agree with you. What does +/- mean according to you?The first step towards developing sign-related theories is agreeing on what each +/- version of each IM actually means. Then, it will be very easy to observe when someone is using one or another, and the rest of the theory can be developed.
Last edited by Petter; 01-17-2018 at 09:19 AM.
Why are there mental and vital functions? Because two functions must process information simultaneously. You cannot observe structural differences (Ti: longer, bigger, more...) without being somewhat aware of the object (Si or Ni).
This means that ILI's vital Ti- is usually not easy to spot, since it is overshadowed by Ni+.
Here's another video with 'INFJ Advice'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36BC6lwmWhM
Hi Petter, I watched the Nicole Kidman questions, I don't think she's ESI, their Fi is more restrained than that, and with Se, a tendency to judgemental side.
Instead, she's got a playfulness about her which I associate with Ne, when she was doing the voice impressions thing she had me in stitches. There was one part towards the start where she explained something with a very logical sensible reason, so I think she's LII.
LII? hmm... that's a new one :-) There is a difference between Ne- and Ne+, and a difference between an accepting function and a producing function. IEE has accepting Ne- and LII has producing Ne+. Ne- is often quirky and Ne+ is often "intellectual". I see neither one of those here (EDIT: I mean Ego functions... strong vital Ne- is noticable). And I don't think LIIs usually come off as playful.
I think Tina Fey is a more extroverted LII as a comparison. Her Fe is restrained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI1NZ1VM3aU
Last edited by Petter; 01-26-2018 at 07:29 AM.
Bill Clinton is usually typed as SEE or IEE. "Allegations of womanising, extramarital affairs and abuse dogged Clinton over the course of his political life, culminating in his 1998 impeachment..." I think it is very unlikely that he is IEE (Fi+ is altruistic). However...
... "After graduating from Yale Law School, Clinton returned to Arkansas and became a law professor at the University of Arkansas"
SEE does not make any sense... unless we add SiTe as a second ego.
What is Tyra Banks' type? I don't think she is ESE, since Fe- is mellow and motherly... Jennifer Lopez is an ESE. Tyra has an enthusiastic Fe+ instead. But is she really an EIE?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_e_HmXrQSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFYpEZg3KQ&t=174s (Would an EIE write this book?)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modelland ("tacky, predictable and superficial")
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op_BiLgnAwY (J.Lo)
"I had her down for a sensor. ESFJ or ESFP"
"Tyra: ESFP (come on, she is so SeFi)"
"Tyra seems ESFJ to me."
"Tyra Banks: ENFJ"
"But seriously it is almost funny how exactly she resembles the worst ESFJs in my life."
http://mbtibase.com/viewchar/Tyra-Ba...2923?src=lvote (ESFJ)
http://www.mbtidatabase.com/profile/1607/tyra+banks (ESFJ)
"She is a socionics SEE -- why Se instead of Fe sf?
The Fe Si and Si Fe types belong to the alpha quadra, and are more accepting and less prone to temperamental outbursts and judgment.
Gamma quadra Se Fi / Fi Se are not as mild-mannered."
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Tyra Banks is most likely an ESI (FiSe and FeNi). I think there are very few EIE supermodels.
Alicia Vikander is even more difficult to type without using Model D. I seriously doubt SEE... she is way too emotional. Her Fe+ is very obvious.
"...trained as a ballet dancer at the Royal Swedish Ballet School in Stockholm and the School of American Ballet in New York."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVlA0wF52w0&t=118s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tixR-sd4ddE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2drKxa2Po
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Let's consider a more extroverted ILI. According to Model A ("ILI-Te"), he/she should be more similar to an LIE. So he/she should be tougher and more decisive. But we see the complete opposite. Yasser Seirawan (chess player) and Max Tegmark (physicist) are two good examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnqs...vGGGzvF7oFSWcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzCvlFRISIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzmbSBrwqzI
*********
It is impossible to accentuate ILI's Te. Why? Because Te is a judging function, so it is "blind". It must be complemented by a perceiving function (Si or Ni).
For example: A=B and B=C (Si) .... Therefore A=C (Te). If we want to draw another conclusion, then we must recall (Si) A=B and B=C again.
However, it is possible to accentuate ILI's NiTe (i.e. a dominant subtype). Ni is dependent on Si as well, but in a different way. Si is just a background or a "scene". Ni makes this scene more interesting. In contrast, drawing many conclusions from the exact same information is pointless (A=B...).
Last edited by Petter; 02-12-2018 at 04:02 PM.
Here's the classic IEE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgBYYZFLdUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GR8jAMGqFo&t=36s
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These IEEs are more introverted, and Fi+ is less obvious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W1-bic6K6A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rryLsYAGaNE&t=265s
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Most people think Brian Cox and Michio Kaku are IEEs (including me). They are physicists, so NiTe as a second ego makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgllA3717pY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrXGfK5I_rU
Maybe that explains why I, ILE, hate LSEs so much.
ILE's Si-, Te+, Se+ and Fi- are not unvalued functions. It is more like implicit criticism from SLI and SEE (and sometimes LSE and ESI): "you are not paying attention to the details" and "you are boring" etc. That is how it is perceived by the ILE.
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Super-Ego (Socionics):
"Zone of self-criticism, self-doubt, guilt, and self-perfection. What you think about when things go wrong."
"failure, incompetence, and oversensitivity cause low self-esteem, complexes, and psychosomatic disorders"
"The Super-Ego functions are the source of much self-consciousness. When among strangers or critical onlookers, people tend to suddenly become aware of the possible inadequacy of their Super-Ego functions and often respond in one of two ways: (1) demonstratively act through these functions to create an illusion of confidence, or (2) demonstratively state their complete incompetency or rejection of these areas."
I agree wholeheartedly with these descriptions of the weak and conscious functions. But ILE / ENTp (or ENTP) is actually sensitive about Si- (facts etc. ... as well as Se+), which is described in Naomi Quenk's book "Was That Really Me?".
'Extraverted Intuitive types report varying degrees of concern about whether others see them as having substance, stability, and depth. They can therefore overdo attention to facts or be somewhat defensive about their knowledge and use of facts and details.'
'An ENTP lawyer acknowledged that she often feels unprepared with data to support her legal arguments, so she makes sure she has at least a few facts she can bring forth at appropriate moments to convince others of her thoroughness. '
'Less mature Extraverted Intuitive types may sometimes present themselves as “experts” about some factual area, eager to educate others about it. This can prove embarrassing if they try to impress a true authority in a particular field. An ENTP at a basic training session for volunteer firefighter complained that the level of information being presented was “too elementary for someone of my level of knowledge and experience. After all,” he explained, “I’ve already witnessed a forest fire and helped put out a couple of brush fires!” '
'In mildly stressful or fatiguing situations, an uneasiness about facts comes out in projected form as a pickiness and obsessiveness about what would otherwise be judged by the Extraverted Intuitive type to be irrelevant detail. Often there are irritated complaints about others’ failure to attend to “important” details like typos, misplaced footnotes, motel beds that are too soft or too hard, or fussiness about food. One ENTP was surprised to learn from his wife that every time they discussed household finances, he would ask the same questions about their insurance policies—using exactly the same tone of voice.'
'An ENTP said that sometimes the details involved in a major project overwhelm her so much that she slips into an obsessive focus on how much time is left to work on the project: “I get it down to minutes and keep repeating the time frame over and over.” '
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There is a difference between Si+ and Si-, though.
Si+ ... are these facts/details accurate?
Si- ... are these facts/details relevant?
'Some Extraverted Intuitive types recall being sensitive about their factual knowledge even as children. An ENFP described an incident when he was about 9 years old.“My school class was doing a project on ponds and streams and the indigenous wildlife. I stated that a creature known as the great crested newt could be found in this habitat. My teacher denied the creature’s existence, and then I felt belittled in front of the class. I returned to school a few days later armed with reference books from the town library and copious notes and photographs to prove the creature’s existence. I felt vindicated and seldom went to the library to borrow similar books again.” '
'One ENFP was characteristically picky about making selections from a restaurant menu. He invariably requested some alteration in the standard fare, adding or deleting a vegetable, grilling rather than broiling, and so on. His companions at these events would be subjected to a lengthy explanation of his finely discriminating gourmet tastes.'
'An ENFP said, “I can become compulsive when I begin to bring order into my kitchen or when I’m balancing the bank statement. I’m generally pretty relaxed about order and usually have piles of books and stuff that needs to be returned to file cabinets.” '
These descriptions apply to ILI / INTp (or INTJ) as well.
*********
EDIT 21-03-2018
ILI
primary functions: Ni+ Te- Si+ Fe- ....
secondary functions: Ne- Fi+ Se- Ti+ ....
IEI
primary functions: Ni- Fe+ Si- Te+ ....
secondary functions: Ne+ Ti- Se+ Fi- ....
'Introverted Intuitive types easily gloss over facts and details in their everyday behavior but can be hypersensitive about this. When they become aware that they have made a “Sensing” mistake, or an error of fact is pointed out to them, they are likely to become annoyed and defensive.
Like their Extraverted Intuitive counterparts, they may compensate for their uneasiness in this area by becoming expert in some highly specific area. This can sometimes resemble a fetish. An INFJ who had little interest in most aspects of housekeeping knew all the ingredients of different household detergents; an INTJ was pleased with his ability to identify any kind of cloud formation.'
This is actually about Si+ and Si-.
'INTJs and INFJs readily project their own distrust of the environment onto others. They may comment on other people’s failure to notice details or assume that everyone experiences the anxieties they experience when dealing with an unfamiliar environment. They may therefore be overly cautious in giving people directions and provide too many—often irrelevant—details. One INFJ instructed his 28-year-old son as he was about to head out on a long trip in the car, “And when you smoke, you use the ashtray.” ' (Si- or Se+)
'Discomfort with the environment can also be seen in an overconcern with keeping track of things. One INTJ reported having to check his pocket two or three times to be sure his keys were there. Introverted Intuitive types try very hard to avoid losing things or getting lost in unfamiliar surroundings. They can become disproportionately upset when their efforts fail, frequently blaming others for their own carelessness.' (Se-)
'In giving a friend directions to her new house, an INTJ detailed the following: Take Central Avenue to Fifth Street and turn right. Go two blocks to Smith Street and make a left at the next corner, Avenue M. Go three blocks and turn right into Mulberry. That’s my street. About halfway down the block you’ll see a blue house with a two-car garage and a “For Sale” sign on the lawn. Next door to that house is a small cottage with a peaked roof. My house has no address number on it, but it’s diagonally across from the blue house. . . . Oh, and did I mention that my house is the only two-story house on the block?' (Si+)
'For Introverted Intuitive types, relaxing their dominant and auxiliary functions may occur through such sensual pleasures as eating, exercising, and gardening. One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn, and winter. Another likes to “go somewhere beautiful—mountains, ocean, water.” ' (Si+)
'Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shapes of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described taking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.' (Si-)
'In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment.
In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming “self-centered” and “self-indulgent” when they are in the grip—a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).
An INFJ said, “I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something— one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things.” Another said, “I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I’m late for everything.” ' (Se+)
'Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention “too much extraverting” as a common trigger for inferior function responses. They describe being provoked by such things as crowds; people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others. They either express irritation at people’s questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.' (Se+ and Se-)
*********
ESI
primary functions: Fi- Se+ Ti- Ne+ ....
secondary functions: Fe+ Ni- Te+ Si- ....
EII
primary functions: Fi+ Ne- Ti+ Se- ....
secondary functions: Fe- Si+ Te- Ni+ ....
This is supported by Naomi's descriptions:
'As an INFP psychotherapist, I find that cleaning the house, organizing drawers, or alphabetizing spices can provide a relaxing and welcome break from seeing clients, theorizing, doing research, and writing.This gives my dominant Feeling and auxiliary Intuition a rest when they have been used particularly intensively. Another INFP engages her tertiary Sensing in her detailed, photorealistic drawings of objects and people, and many INFPs mention crafts as a hobby. An ISFP relaxes most successfully while doing the Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle. He enjoys being able to put the many facts he knows into the logical order of the English language and giving his tertiary Intuition free rein to fill in the gaps in the puzzle.'
'When one ISFP becomes especially irritated with her husband’s chronic indecision, she provides him with lengthy, logical accounts of his available choices, adopting a combative, lawyerlike tone. One INFP makes almost vicious attacks on people who fail to live up to his ethical standards. “One winter I found out the gas company had turned off service to my disabled neighbor, who couldn’t pay her bill. I flew into a rage, called the president of the company, and threatened to expose him to the newspapers. Even I was surprised at the language I used,” he said.'
'An ISFP finds it stressful to “work with people who are very focused on regulations and rules,” and another said, “I dislike strict deadlines and like to move at my own pace.” '
'An ISFP commented that she becomes “very aware that people at work are not following procedures and are making the same mistakes over and over again. But when I think about it later, I have to admit there are no more mistakes than usual.” '
'Introverted Feeling types may select hobbies that engage their Thinking function. One INFP thoroughly enjoys computer games that require logic and strategy. Another relaxes by analyzing companies for possible investment.'
Last edited by Petter; 03-21-2018 at 07:11 AM.
I am considering Model D mk4, which partially contradicts mk3.
IEE
primary functions: Ne- Fi+ Se- Ti+ // Ti- Ne+ Fi- Se+ NeFi SiFe // FeNi FiSe
secondary functions: Ni+ Te- Si+ Fe- // Fe+ Ni- Te+ Si- NiTe SeTi // TiNe TeSi
- FiSe "protects" or "controls" NeFi ... and TiNe "protects" or "controls" SeTi.
- Ti- and Ne+ are strong functions.
- All static functions work together.
- This model explains why many young IEEs like logic puzzles.
Last edited by Petter; 10-15-2018 at 02:54 PM.
I think lack of imagination is what I find in LSE most disturbing. They are very poor researchers and usually come to me to do it for them, but what they ask specifically is "what is the standarized way to do something", then I need to do research on their problem, on possible solutions and see what is best fit. Anyway, they often come with some ridiculous nonsensical problems as well, but sometimes we can work this out.