Model D

[seriousguy]

Can you give the simplified descriptions of every function (as Viktor's descriptions are long and even ambiguous)? For example, how is IEI's 2D +Se different from 1D -Se? Poor ability to grasp the concrete details of the world (-Se), but relatively better ability to push themselves for work and force other people (+Se)? For example, I am extremely lost most of the time and live in my head, and my stuff gets lost and I don't remember how that happens, but I have good reactivity / responsiveness and general pushiness.

IEI:
==

4D: -Ni, +Fi, +Ne, -Te
3D: +Fe, -Ne, -Ti, +Ni
2D: -Si, +Ti, +Se, -Fe
1D: +Te, -Se, -Fi, +Si

[Petter]

Can you give the simplified descriptions of every function (as Viktor's descriptions are long and even ambiguous)? For example, how is IEI's 2D +Se different from 1D -Se? Poor ability to grasp the concrete details of the world (-Se), but relatively better ability to push themselves for work and force other people (+Se)? For example, I am extremely lost most of the time and live in my head, and my stuff gets lost and I don't remember how that happens, but I have good reactivity / responsiveness and general pushiness.


IEI:
==


4D: -Ni, +Fi, +Ne, -Te
3D: +Fe, -Ne, -Ti, +Ni
2D: -Si, +Ti, +Se, -Fe
1D: +Te, -Se, -Fi, +Si

Are you referring to these?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

I think Viktor descriptions are quite good, but they are not perfect. I (and many socionists) claim that +/- is a consequence of the blocking of aspects/functions, so Se+ sees details about subjects: clothes, hairstyle, someone is dancing, someone is flirting etc, and Se- sees details about objects: a nice car, someone is muscular, physical threats, someone is kicking a ball etc. This is the main difference between Se+ and Se-. The difference between 2D and 1D is norm vs. experience.

I think IEI's mental Se+ vs. vital Se- is the most obvious difference. Types with mental Se+ do not talk about the minus aspects of Se, like physical threats.

[seriousguy]

Are you referring to these?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

I think Viktor descriptions are quite good, but they are not perfect. I (and many socionists) claim that +/- is a consequence of the blocking of aspects/functions, so Se+ sees details about subjects: clothes, hairstyle, someone is dancing, someone is flirting etc, and Se- sees details about objects: a nice car, someone is muscular, physical threats, someone is kicking a ball etc. This is the main difference between Se+ and Se-. The difference between 2D and 1D is norm vs. experience.

I think IEI's mental Se+ vs. vital Se- is the most obvious difference. Types with mental Se+ do not talk about the minus aspects of Se, like physical threats.

Yes, those descriptions are long and seem different to yours, for e.g., Se+ about clothes, hairstyles, etc. it didn't mention this aspect anywhere, so you need to write your short descriptions here.

What about "volitional sensing, how much force, power or pressure is required" aspect of Se? Is it Se+ or Se-? Regarding dimensionality: How is IEI's Ti- and ILI's Fi+ conscious/mental functions and (especially this) 3D? Because I understand the creativity / situation of 3D as the ability to use appropriate information for the required situation (without any prior experience of the situations) and understanding the scope of the information, which IEI clearly don't do it naturally in regards to Ti- as they just indulge in abstract system / models without going anywhere?

[Petter]

Yes, those descriptions are long and seem different to yours, for e.g., Se+ about clothes, hairstyles, etc. it didn't mention this aspect anywhere, so you need to write your short descriptions here. What about "volitional sensing, how much force, power or pressure is required" aspect of Se? Is it Se+ or Se-?

These are approximate descriptions of the functions. However, Model D is based on Jung's/Berens' cognitive processes (with some improvements), so (for example) I think Se+ and Se- are only indirectly related to "psychological space" and "material space".

Sensing of forms (Si-): harmony, aesthetics, beauty
Sensing of perceptions (Si+): cosiness, comfort, pleasant sensations
Material space (Se-): strength, power, control
Psychological (virtual) space (Se+): profit, benefit, gain
Intuition of Time (Ni-): destiny, prevision, fatefulness
Dynamics of actions (Ni+): topicality, timeliness, tendencies
Ethical intuition (Ne-): potential, personality traits, understanding, insight
Object intuition (Ne+): alternatives, possibilities, interpretation, guess, obviousness
Logic of learning or Logic of exploration (Ti-): system, regularity
Logic of management or Logic of control (Ti+): right, rule
Logic of processes (Te-): processes, technologies
Logic of objects (Te+): things, objects
Territorial ethics (Fi-): influence, rapprochement, repulsion
Ethics of understanding (Fi+): sympathy, affection, benevolent relation
Emotions of sensations (Fe-): emotional force, energy boiling, emotions passed over through tactile, taste or other sensor vocabulary (sour expression, sugary voice, he makes me sick...)
Emotions of events (Fe+): play of feelings, absence of sensory component in vocabulary

Regarding dimensionality: How is IEI's Ti- and ILI's Fi+ conscious/mental functions and (especially this) 3D? Because I understand the creativity / situation of 3D as the ability to use appropriate information for the required situation (without any prior experience of the situations) and understanding the scope of the information, which IEI clearly don't do it naturally in regards to Ti- as they just indulge in abstract system / models without going anywhere?

3D: "Situation is applicable to all the strong functions. They are capable of developing new relations, effectively using the exceptions to the rules, generalizing information into patterns - of generating new knowledge and experience. According to Novikova, the mode of perception is the dynamic present - reactions to the situation accounting for trends and possible developments."

The fact that you, an IEI, show an interest in a new theoretical model and ask many questions, is a very strong indication of a 3D Ti-.

What do you mean by "without going anywhere"?

[seriousguy]

The fact that you, an IEI, show an interest in a new theoretical model and ask many questions, is a very strong indication of a 3D Ti-.

How is taking interest in theoretical models the sign of 3D Ti-? It just seems Ti- valuing to me.

What do you mean by "without going anywhere"?

I meant that IEIs tend to take some theory as granted without validating it through actual evidence and facts, and then spit it everywhere. And, their models tend to be highly subjective, coming from their experience (and what they have studied through books / articles) alone. How is that "creativity"? (especially if compared to LII's 4D Ti-)

[Petter]

How is taking interest in theoretical models the sign of 3D Ti-? It just seems Ti- valuing to me.

"Valued functions" is a widely misinterpreted concept in Socionics (and MBTI). Super-Id corresponds to "I want", so we do not usually observe these functions in a type. We observe the mental functions most of the time.

This is accurate:

"Verbal (discursive) functions (or overvalued) belong to clusters of ego and super-Id. They provide the active exchange of information between people. Information on these functions is interesting, and easily discussed. They tend to self-development.

Non-verbal (working, cooperative) functions belong to the blocks of super-ego and id. Aspects of these functions are not negotiable, prefer to receive help through action, deeds. Activity is limited to immediate needs and demands of society."

I meant that IEIs tend to take some theory as granted without validating it through actual evidence and facts, and then spit it everywhere. And, their models tend to be highly subjective, coming from their experience (and what they have studied through books / articles) alone. How is that "creativity"? (especially if compared to LII's 4D Ti-)

The fact that IEIs come up with (theoretical) models proves a 3D Ti- and creativity.

LII's and ILI's models also come from personal experiences and books.

[seriousguy]

"Valued functions" is a widely misinterpreted concept in Socionics (and MBTI). Super-Id corresponds to "I want", so we do not usually observe these functions in a type. We observe the mental functions most of the time.

This is accurate:

"Verbal (discursive) functions (or overvalued) belong to clusters of ego and super-Id. They provide the active exchange of information between people. Information on these functions is interesting, and easily discussed. They tend to self-development.

Non-verbal (working, cooperative) functions belong to the blocks of super-ego and id. Aspects of these functions are not negotiable, prefer to receive help through action, deeds. Activity is limited to immediate needs and demands of society."

You said super-id functions are not observed in a type, and yet it seems "verbal" (ego and super-id) is conscious? Can you write down which functions of an IEI are conscious and unconscious? (in a similar fashion I have written down 1D-4D functions) I personally find 1D Se- conscious in me (or more verbalized) than 2D Se+, like I would openly order / push someone, raise my voice, shout, give physical threats, able to know who is stronger / powerful, etc. but I clearly don't verbalize information on clothes or physical qualities at all.

The fact that IEIs come up with (theoretical) models proves a 3D Ti- and creativity.

LII's and ILI's models also come from personal experiences and books.

Then what's the difference between LII's Ti- 4D models and IEI's Ti- 3D models? As an IEI, I clearly see the lack of creativity / situation in Ni of ESI/LSI as they are confident in their predictions and apply the same norms everywhere.