star wars : tfa - something i like

[marooned]

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/01/th...-cantina-cast/ hehe

thoughts/response:

- the jedi *don't* aim to be sociopaths lol. it's more like non-attachment in buddhism. i realize it was kind of a joke.

- when obi-wan warned luke and told him to bury his feelings deep down, it was referring to the imminent confrontation with vader & the emperor. he said that luke's insights served him well but they could be made to serve the emperor. he needed to fortify his psychological boundaries. indeed, later, vader begins reading luke's mind and using what he finds to try to manipulate him. the emperor was busy interpreting luke's emotional state too throughout the scene so as to encourage his anger and hate. these are the sorts of things obi-wan was warning about.

- kylo throws the temper tantrums when things don't go his way. honestly it reminds me of when han (or lando) is trying to get the hyperdrive on the falcon to work and it shorts out again... and being all "it's not my fault..." while leia is all criticizing about it kind of. it's the frustration surrounding an expected level of performance. i think every time kylo fails, he feels like han again and he hates that. he hates not being good enough to live up to the huge legacy he expects of himself. setbacks can cause him to feel inadequate to the massive undertaking before him. i agree though that he *tries* to be very controlled often and has a certain image he's trying to embody, and that takes a lot of psychological energy while meanwhile the steam builds up inside until breaking point.

- in the book 'bloodlines' leia hadn't forgiven vader either. even though luke's story about how in his final moments vader became anakin again touched her, and although she understood what it meant to luke, her experiences with vader were not something she could just forgive. he tortured her trying to get the location of the rebel base; held her in place as she watched the destruction of her homeworld; tortured han and sold him to his enemy; cut luke's arm off and nearly killed him... basically he *embodies* the empire to her and all of the suffering it caused and the billions of deaths.

- i agree about the tentative love from han & leia and that neither of them are the most affectionate people (though they're not bereft of it either...) i also agree that han & leia could have associated him with vader any time he used his abilities as a kid (especially if it was for selfish reasons, and little kids especially can be really selfish). and yeah, he would have felt those feelings of fear or doubt from them quite acutely. he would have felt that they were hesitant to fully love him or give all of themselves to him; that they were distant or unavailable. it works with why he is such a mess--oscillating between being a competent bad guy and a whiny screw up (he has internalized their doubting of him and so he doubts himself). his sense of entitlement ("you know i can take whatever i want") is kind of his way of compensating for this sort of tentative love & attention from his parents. he won't be denied again. he'll just take what he needs from people if they won't give it, as that way his needs will be met and whatever reasons they have for withholding won't matter. by feeling entitled to whatever he wants from others, he doesn't have to suffer the hurt of inconstancy or rejection. the problem/pain has been bypassed.

- his parents and uncle also kept important information from him: that darth vader was his grandfather. in 'bloodlines,' he apparently doesn't know this yet (until it gets out publicly). i kind of suspect he might have already known because there are other ways he could find out (the force, maybe snoke). but what's interesting is that by not telling him and then fearing he could be like vader himself, han & leia kind of set it up so he'll later feel like darth vader would be the only one who could understand him (because they are alike). it leaves vader as the only one he can relate to (they can be evil together in his mind). it's also interesting in that i think interrogations are really important to kylo because no one can keep information from him anymore. no one will keep secrets from him ever again and every time he succeeds in getting the information he wants from his victims, it is like a reassurance.

- i like the comment about either wanting people to be clearly afraid of him or clearly not. if someone is afraid of him, perhaps he sees it as that person is against him. this could make sense with the interrogation scene with rey. not entirely sure he wants to be enemies yet, he doesn't like her fear of him. otoh, he wishes hux who he despises would fear him, but he just won't (how infuriating).

- it would make sense that leia & han both might not want him learning from luke (until things began going seriously wrong with him) because maybe neither of them liked the force and being trained in it that much (not just han).

- agree that he is somehow seeking approval from vader (even though the relationship is just in his mind)... if he finishes what vader started he will win approval... vader would accept him

- i don't think han and leia were "helicopter parents" or that they were smothering. they were more distant and at times, even negligent. han likes to run around the galaxy and be involved in "schemes" and leia was very involved in her political work. it would often feel like his parents were unavailable, and not just emotionally unavailable--actually not there. maybe they did try to settle down at first and be a family, but i'm not sure how long it would have lasted because han & leia also tend to grate on one another when in too close proximity for too long. both are active and adventuresome. i did think that leia was burnt out at the end of 'return of the jedi' in a way. a lot of shit had happened and she seemed more serious and saddened. but she eventually got her spunk back.
i guess it depends on what is meant though by "helicopter parent," because i could see leia especially as wanting to control the structures in kylo's life to make sure he is raised properly...

- ugh @ this guy and his weird ideas about borderline personality like being "not quite a personality disorder because it's on the border?" flsajflasdj i thought the idea was that borderlines have this ambivalence to them... they love you, they hate you, they love you, they hate you... it's this mad oscillation between opposing extremes and feeling *equally* intensely about each. frankly, this can kind of fit with how kylo feels about han (but there's not enough to prove this from the film, imo... it's a possibility though).
although the adam smith guy kind of writes off kylo inflicting pain on himself as being a sith thing (which it is when he's pounding on his wound), i think there actually might be something to this. i noticed in the rey interrogation scene, before she wakes up, he's not simply sitting on the floor, but crouching on his legs. perhaps he was simply doing an exercise, but i know that position gets really painful really fast. but, yes, it's true the sith use pain to fuel their power, so i guess it doesn't matter or count.

- i agree that overall borderline pd doesn't seem too fitting because the attention-seeking isn't prominent enough. there is approval seeking (both from dead vader & snoke and i could imagine it used to be from his parents & luke before it failed). also as "emo" as he is, i think overall he tries to hide all of the emotions as much as possible, which seems opposite of what someone with borderline pd would do?

- "he's trying to believe that the dark side will give him what he wants, but deep down he knows it won't." i think that's how it began, but by the time of the film, he's pretty committed. but i guess we'll have to wait, as how killing han affected him in terms of his relationship to the dark side, will matter a lot in this. and i wouldn't call him *balanced* between the dark & the light. he's a mass murderer--he's pretty clearly on the dark side. it's just the light torments him constantly.

- although i agree that vader was more "attached" to the emperor (devoted to him almost) than kylo appears to be to snoke (their relationship is more business), i don't think you can use his lack of attachments to make a case because this is how people on the dark side of the force operate often. sith usually don't love (dark side). you might as well revisit the discussion about causing himself pain (dismissed because of how sith use pain) if you're going to go there. i would say that there isn't really enough information yet to determine this. and ugh, he doesn't call snoke 'master' because they are not actually sith (or jedi). i'm sure if snoke wanted to be called 'master' he'd get kylo to do so. (the emperor wanted to be called that btw.)
it is true that it apparently doesn't hurt kylo to know that snoke is only using him--he's using snoke as well. so i agree (as i said) that there isn't a lot of attachment in this relationship. still, snoke does at least feign sympathy at times, like when he told kylo that he's never faced such a difficult task as killing han (he acknowledges that this will be emotionally difficult for kylo to carry out). whether he actually has some concern for kylo or is just faking it doesn't matter because he clearly determined he needed to show some sympathy (provide some emotional support).
they keep going on about how he didn't say anything in response to han warning him that snoke is using him... did he need to actually say something? he was clearly thinking about it (searching his feelings, as it were), and he found he agreed with han (he accepted the warning). i thought this was clear on his face. it wasn't a "brush off" or a lack of acknowledgment.

- yeah. i too thought he would eventually kill snoke (if the film makers allow). poor snoke, does he not know the dangers of patricidal maniacs? snoke is the closest thing kylo has to a *living* father figure now that he's already killed his real dad. kylo would like to kill luke too, i assume. he would like to kill any male authority figure, or fatherly figure really. he's got the dad hate bad. snoke is definitely in danger.

- totally agree snoke was grooming kylo, and apparently from a young age. agree that snoke is the only person "feeding him" at least in the way he wants to be fed. snoke makes him feel special and highly valuable (worthy). for the time being, snoke's approval means a lot to kylo (he *needs* it).

- did kylo goad that tekka guy into making him want to kill him? i'm trying to remember. i think that kylo in general has to build up his hate to kill people or harm them. maybe that's what he was doing with finn when he shouted "traitor!" - trying to remind himself why he should hate finn enough to kill him. and even then, he didn't actually kill him. i think the truth is that kylo feels a small amount of compassion for finn (he let him go in the very beginning of the film). it's easy for him to order the deaths of the nameless and faceless, but it is more difficult for him to kill anyone he feels a personal connection to? but this doesn't matter because he is a killer and he's mean. and he hated that san tekka guy. i think he wanted to kill him and just wanted a reason so he'd feel totally satisfied and justified in doing it. kylo didn't like tekka (this elder/authority figure/family friend) trying to dig his warm fingers in kylo's cold heart. it's the justification kylo needs to cut the man down.

- totally agree with the vader is cultivating an ant farm thing (though not sure i'd use that analogy in particular) and just killing the workers who are inefficient. if you suck at your job and can't do what vader needs done, you die. you get precious few chances before this. kylo otoh *is* just trying to gain dark side points. to be a "good performer" he needs to kill people, so he can get stronger with the dark side and more powerful. this is what he's supposed to be doing in his commitment to this path. if he becomes strong enough, he can finish darth vader's noble work and win his approval at last (finally be worthy). (yes, it's goal oriented--he is trying to achieve something and this is how to go about it.)

- i agree with kylo seeing rey as someone who could possibly understand him (another reason he doesn't like her fear). he is seeking connection.

- whoever was talking seems to have an unreasonable idea about how much "good" is in kylo. like, i think he's saying that kylo has far too much goodness, is trying to drive it away but can't? i can't believe that because of all the killing he does (especially han). i think that kylo also has a lot of cruelty in him. but this really depends since the mystical dark side is involved. when kylo's face is overtaken by some ugly cruel look, when he is being mean, is it the dark side being channeled through him unevenly, or is it simply revealing the true ugliness of who he is? i think that the film makers could actually go either way on this and make it make sense. when anakin kills people in ep. iii he is crying, or completely detached (trying not to feel how much it hurts him to do it)... and some of these people are nameless to him (enemies who he's been fighting all along in the war) but it still hurts even with them. it was a bit different with obi-wan since in his deluded way anakin felt personally betrayed by obi-wan (and by all the jedi).
kylo, otoh, exhibits decidedly more sadism than anakin did in ep. iii.

- hmm. i do think the dark side eats away at people (consumes them). it wants to take everything they are slowly as they feed it the pain and suffering of their victims (and their corpses & their souls). it's just sheer destructive power. it's not really that those who wield it are "imperfect vessels" but that its very nature is to consume & destroy. its practitioners tend to disregard their own well being (they give themselves to the dark side and to terrible desires). so they will lose limbs for it, fight intensely (never stop) even if they are bleeding to death, use or increase their pain to accomplish their objectives, kill their loved ones even though it hurts & destroys them psychologically. they are willing to sacrifice themselves to it/destroy themselves for it.
the dark side isn't a parasite. it's simply part of the spectrum of existence. the reason why it takes someone over rather fast is because of the violence. killing or destroying (out of hatred, vengeance, rage) are acts that draw on the dark side and the more you draw on it, the more it flows in you; and the more it flows in you the more you want to kill and destroy (vicious cycle). i'm not sure engagement with the light side is any less a positive-feedback loop. kylo for instance fears being seduced by the light (from where he is on the dark side, the light is the same... if you give into it, it may take you quickly and so you must resist the "temptation").
the dark side isn't "a drug" either. the force is "spiritual."

- so sick of the rey being luke's daughter idea. if they do that i will turn to the dark side myself. it's just too annoying.

- lol at kylo becoming a functioning decent person once again. he didn't *want* to be a decent person. if he were to go back to "the light side" with his current personality, he'll just go right back. he's using it to compensate for or fill in some pretty serious weaknesses in his personality that he wouldn't be able to stand without the dark side. the feelings of inadequacy run too deep. and he has rejected those who could try to help him with it: han, leia, luke.

- i don't think that palpatine was necessarily always evil... but i don't know for sure of course. i do think a lot of the people who become strong masters on the dark side were already psychopaths before they learned how to use their force abilities. however, the path that kylo is on now could end in becoming like palpatine or snoke (although perhaps he is not strong enough with the force to become as terrible as palpatine). you can say he has "too much good" in him *now* but this is an ongoing evolution--and he is actively trying to rid himself of all of his goodness.

- obviously "redemption" when it comes to these stories doesn't mean you are somehow off the hook for all your crimes. maybe it might to certain people who are strong with the light side of the force; but naturally most people wouldn't see it that way. although what is rather amusing is that the dark side of the force has often arisen in this lawful evil way involving punishing people for their "treachery" with torture and death. so really, if vader had survived after the war and the new republic called for his head, the justice vs. vengeance question certainly comes up. and which side of the force would his execution actually feed or be a response from? (the dark side)