ESTj Description by I/O

[Muddy]

All,

I wrote this description and the ISTp one a long time ago for one purpose: the apparent inner anger or rage of both types. No one has yet said anything to the contrary about this aspect, which I emphasized. I've yet to figure out the root cause; perhaps it's a combination of lack of intuition and the closed-loop need for immediate closure. I don't know of an ESTj or ISTp that doesn't have this trait; and when these two types interact, the phenomena can become very apparent very quickly. And, all were nice, well-meaning people......

a.k.a. I/O

I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.

[wacey]

I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.

Um..no.

[Muddy]

Um..no.

Always give an explanation before criticizing please. It greatly annoys me when people shoot down someone else's statement without providing reasoning or backing as to why they are wrong.

[wacey]

Always give an explanation before criticizing please. It greatly annoys me when people shoot down someone else's statement without providing reasoning or backing as to why they are wrong.

The last two sentences of that post are totally wrong for delta STs. There is no latent aggression, competitiveness, and confrontational nature to them. Especially not in ISTps, and certainly the same could be said of LSEs. I don't know where you are basing that off of? I hope its not the red head character from The Walking Dead?

And to speak about Si being consciouslly and therefore implicitly strained function for someone like say an SLI, shows your as yet lack of understanding into that sociotype.

[Muddy]

The last two sentences of that post are totally wrong for delta STs. There is no latent aggression, competitiveness, and confrontational nature to them. Especially not in ISTps, and certainly the same could be said of LSEs. I don't know where you are basing that off of? I hope its not the red head character from The Walking Dead?

And to speak about Si being consciouslly and therefore implicitly strained function for someone like say an SLI, shows your as yet lack of understanding into that sociotype.

Then we will simply have to disagree, same goes for @thehotelambush. The redhead character from the Walking Dead IS a shining example of a typical LSE. Yes, he is an acted character, but I've seen others in real life who very closely mimicked his personality and I'm only using him as an example. What would you type him? He is not SLE, I can tell you that much. I don't have as much experience with SLI so I can't speak for them, but I believe it is a similar case with them just not as extreme as LSE. I do not believe the IEs simply "go away" when they are placed in the Id, but rather then manifest in a more primitive, instinctual form. Model A sucks IMO.

Beta ST aggression is manifested in more of a "Lets go to Nam and smoke some chincs" kind of way, while Delta ST aggression manifest more as going into a rage and engaging in domestic abuse. Look at the Delta VI thread and tell me you don't get a vibe of domestic abuse from them. I'm am not attempting to bash deltas by the way but the idea that they are angels because of having Si in the ego is very wrong.

[Exodus]

Beta ST aggression is manifested in more a "Lets go to Nam and smoke some chincs" kind of way, while Delta ST aggression manifest more as going into a rage and engaging in domestic abuse. Look at the Delta VI thread and tell me you don't get a vibe of domestic abuse from them. I'm am not attempting to bash deltas by the way but the idea that they are angels because of having Si in the ego is very wrong.

Model A is really deep and beautiful if you take the time to understand it. The descriptions you've given are offensive and crude by comparison.

The Id functions are something we use mostly for ourselves, as a tool. However, we don't let them get in the way of our Ego functions (as, say, engaging in violence on a regular basis would do with ), and they yield easily when others signal that they're not wanted.

[Muddy]

Model A is really deep and beautiful if you take the time to understand it. The descriptions you've given are offensive and crude by comparison.

The Id functions are something we use mostly for ourselves, as a tool. However, we don't let them get in the way of our Ego functions (as, say, engaging in violence on a regular basis would do with ), and they yield easily when others signal that they're not wanted.

I realize my descriptions might be a tad bit offensive but my main objective is to get the main point across in the clearest way possible and to do that I need to forgo political correctness.

I used to think of the Id as just being used for own goals as well but this has left to many unanswered holes in the behavior of the types and thus I now think the Id plays plays a much more central role in the behavior of they types. My understating of socionics is constantly evolving (which is why I haven't subscribed to a type yet, I don't want to type myself until I understand all the types 100% and rid my viewpoints of stereotypes), I will also admit that not all my past comments have been 100% correct, so feel free to disagree, but currently I think model A is filled with unanswered gaps and doesn't fully penetrate the essence of the types.

[wacey]

Then we will simply have to disagree, same goes for @thehotelambush. The redhead character from the Walking Dead IS a shining example of a typical LSE. Yes, he is an acted character, but I've seen others in real life who very closely mimicked his personality and I'm only using him as an example. What would you type him? He is not SLE, I can tell you that much. I don't have as much experience with SLI so I can't speak for them, but I believe it is a similar case with them just not as extreme as LSE. I do not believe the IEs simply "go away" when they are placed in the Id, but rather then manifest in a more primitive, instinctual form. Model A sucks IMO.

Beta ST aggression is manifested in more of a "Lets go to Nam and smoke some chincs" kind of way, while Delta ST aggression manifest more as going into a rage and engaging in domestic abuse. Look at the Delta VI thread and tell me you don't get a vibe of domestic abuse from them. I'm am not attempting to bash deltas by the way but the idea that they are angels because of having Si in the ego is very wrong.

Alright man, think whatever you want to think its a free world.

Regarding Red head, I think he has Ne polr, not agenda. So Se-LSI.

[Muddy]

Alright man, think whatever you want to think its a free world.

Regarding Red head, I think he has Ne polr, not agenda. So Se-LSI.

Wouldn't you agree his energy level is more the level of that of an extrovert? We see him in that section where the others want to call off the wall construction and then he says "screw that" and keeps chugging along like a machine, all the while actively moving objects and people around with 4D TeSe. There is also the section were he pretty obviously displays Ni polr when he fails to predict rather or not the camper has enough gas to reach the destination. LSI is more like Rick, whom's energy aura is sharper and but less intense then the LSE's.

[Beautiful sky]

I was thinking about this in my other thread and I think the inner rage of Delta STs have is a result of having Se in the Id, which is also made worse with the addition of weak ethics. There is a huge misconception floating around in socionics that the Id functions are used for nothing more then "protecting the dual", which is a is very misleading way of interpreting the Id functions IMO. Rather, I think the Id functions represent a much more vital role in our personalities. So Delta STs, having Se in the Id, are naturally aggressive, competitive and confrontational. Comfort and harmony (Si) is something they need to put conscious effort into achieving, as where they would automatically be in state of comfort and harmony if Si was in the Id rather then the ego.

Rage?

I'll answer this question

My bf will get cranky in the early mornings because he never gets enough sleep. The slightest disruption of the very few hours he can rune his sleep. This has to do with disruption of Si probably. I say this because I've never gotten cranky when my sleep gets interrupted. If interrupted, they'll jump out of bed and bitch about the noise "the damn dog!" etc. But it's just bitching with no harm behind it. Other bitching is "I'm always the one doing things around here!" If an LSE does a lot and gets no appreciation it's not going to be good. They may continue to provide and do but it's just emotionally wrong to continue asking so much of someone who doesn't want to leave the relationship yet expected to continue doing without appreciation. Genuine appreciation.

Other rage comes from having asked you to do something and you not doing it that way or they will not explain to you how they want it done and will suddenly seize the moment and grab the thing out of your hand and do it the way they saw it RIGHT @Sol.
In this case you have to be quiet, patient, and not mind them. Just joke and if they are not in a joking mood do it anyway until they flare up and build over by expressing all their discontent and say "I'm so glad I remained calm"

They feel bad about having done stupid shit like this and gone on a bitchy rant and may even say "It's not you babe. I just didn't want it done THAT way." In which case don't think anything of it and move on. No point in holding on to anger.


They will also get fairy angry when a driver breaks the rules or does something that could potentially hurt someone or is behavior that's perceived as rude "that effing B cut me off"



When LSE run out of time and stress about getting everything ready in time like when my cousin tries to prepare all meals for dinner time at 6pm she will get enraged if people don't focus on work and aren't as driven and focused to get things done briskly lol

I strongly disagree with this. Delta STs do not have "inner anger or rage" as a rule. This is much more characteristic of Se ego types, especially Beta STs who struggle with expressing their emotions in a healthy manner. It suggests you have confused them, as do these quotes:



"ESTjs have a strong sense of ownership and territory - they would not allow anyone to exert control over or do things differently on their turf."
Why would a type that values Ne and not Se display this behavior?



LSEs do naturally take a leadership role, but I would hardly say that it's a compulsion or that power (again, an Se theme) is something they seek out for itself. LSEs do not care much at all about how they are perceived. I'm not sure that they "love interaction with others" either; I would say that they focus their energy on activities that are both productive and enjoyable, and often this means working together with other people. But they are good-natured in general, and tend to be very emotionally balanced. I also disagree that they are "corrosive", this is much more typical of Resolute logical types.

The earlier part of the description is better but you have not correlated anything with the information elements, and you probably could go deeper into the motivations behind the behavior.



This is just plain wrong. Hating "chaos, disarray, lack of discipline, transgressions of their norms, rules, agreements" - these are all Beta ST characteristics, this is all TiSe. LSEs do not have a concept of "transgression of their norms", or if they do they don't care about it. They are extremely flexible with their expectations of others and themselves, and definitely do not exhaustively prepare themselves, in fact they tend to act in the moment and be generally unaware of the need for preparation (Ni PoLR). I also hardly think that they are "anxious, irritable, or angry" - certainly not anxious because they are focused on enjoying the present moment (i.e. Si). If anything, it's the opposite: they tend to ignore problems (as do most Si valuers) and take an overly optimistic outlook that they can deal with things as they come. SLIs can be described as irritable because of a general lack of Fe, but LSEs have role Fe which means they generally try to present a positive attitude.

You are completely wrong. Jesus