View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?

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  • Yes

    37 41.57%
  • No

    26 29.21%
  • I'm not sure.

    13 14.61%
  • It doesn't matter

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Thread: Do you believe in God?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I have a question for those of you who believe in the definite existence or nonexistence of god: does it bother you when people believe the opposite? And why or why not?

    I wouldn't say I'm bothered. I look at it as an opportunity for discussion. I don't particularly enjoy discussions of conflict, but I do enjoy discussions of depth. These things are important to discuss. The death rate in life 100%. I would argue that your answer to this question is one of the most important things about you.


    As for the discussion of evidence, The Bible was written over the span of 1500 years with 40 difference authors across different locations, all containing consistent and precise lineage, thoughts, and prophecy. This is so overwhelming that it stands as remarkable evidence that something greater than man is at play here.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    "The finite can exist within the infinite, but the infinite cannot exist within the finite. The human mind is a finite construct, with a finite speed and capacity for reason. For the human mind to attempt to reason the infinite, it must first reject it's own finite nature or the nature of the infinite, both of which are the evidence of it's own finite nature within the infinite, and both of which constitute insanity."

    God is infinite by definition. You cannot argue in favor of God not existing without first rejecting the definition of God, in which case you are arguing something else, or without first rejecting your own finite capacity for reason or the nature of the infinite without having a logical break. By entering into the argument of the existence of God, you have already entered a closed-loop logical system, whereby you only either fail at logical connections or reach the boundaries of the closed loop.

    No.

    Have you read this paper? It was the first thing that came to mind upon reading that paragraph -- the original, and now the rehashing below -- where you make an argument that is itself based on a failure of logic. Link: http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf

    It wouldn't bother me, but you've been pretty obnoxious imo...though I may just be too crotchety for what you intend as fun and games.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I've enjoyed reading people's responses...it's cool to see where people stand, and why.

    I have a question for those of you who believe in the definite existence or nonexistence of god: does it bother you when people believe the opposite? And why or why not?
    People are in different places in their life. It doesn't upset me when people have different views. I don't love people based on their religious beliefs I love them because of who they are.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    No.

    Have you read this paper? It was the first thing that came to mind upon reading that paragraph -- the original, and now the rehashing below -- where you make an argument that is itself based on a failure of logic. Link: http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf

    It wouldn't bother me, but you've been pretty obnoxious imo...though I may just be too crotchety for what you intend as fun and games.
    Yes.

  5. #125
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    I... am generally not a fan of the concept of believing.... in anything. I try to get by without it as much as I can. And I find the notion of a deity rather absurd and uninteresting, considering how it came about to exist (historically) in the first place.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

  6. #126
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    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    Last edited by Skepsis; 03-10-2016 at 02:11 PM. Reason: added text
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post


    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    <3
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Yeah huhhh
    I did not question the existence of the infinite. I essentially said if something exists, there is nothing magical or supernatural about it.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    "The finite can exist within the infinite, but the infinite cannot exist within the finite. The human mind is a finite construct, with a finite speed and capacity for reason. For the human mind to attempt to reason the infinite, it must first reject it's own finite nature or the nature of the infinite, both of which are the evidence of it's own finite nature within the infinite, and both of which constitute insanity."

    God is infinite by definition. You cannot argue in favor of God not existing without first rejecting the definition of God, in which case you are arguing something else, or without first rejecting your own finite capacity for reason or the nature of the infinite without having a logical break. By entering into the argument of the existence of God, you have already entered a closed-loop logical system, whereby you only either fail at logical connections or reach the boundaries of the closed loop.
    You can say that god is defined as a being with unobservable (and thus unprovable) properties, and thus that there is zero evidence for such a being. Either god is an entity within this universe, or it does not exist: this has absolutely nothing to do with the finiteness of the human mind.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    I wouldn't say I'm bothered. I look at it as an opportunity for discussion. I don't particularly enjoy discussions of conflict, but I do enjoy discussions of depth. These things are important to discuss. The death rate in life 100%. I would argue that your answer to this question is one of the most important things about you.


    As for the discussion of evidence, The Bible was written over the span of 1500 years with 40 difference authors across different locations, all containing consistent and precise lineage, thoughts, and prophecy. This is so overwhelming that it stands as remarkable evidence that something greater than man is at play here.
    The bible was probably mostly written in the 6th century B.C., with bits added on up until the end of the 2nd century A.D.

    I would not consider the internal chronology of the bible to be remarkable. There are several different chronologies, especially for the period relating to the Exodus through to the Judges. I also think it is very easy to write a prophecy after the fact, and that writing a "prophecy" also makes it easier for someone to fulfill it. As it is, there are many good reasons that the figure commonly known as Jesus Christ was not the person "prophesied" in Jeremiah: the Messiah he prophesied only makes sense in the context of the Persian invasion of 607 BC.

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    It does when you assume that you are capable of reasoning a sound answer to the question and when you assume that your abilities of perception are adequate enough to perceive the evidence. At the end of the day, you can either witness something and understand it, or you cannot. If one can do these things, it does not necessarily mean that it may be transferred to another.

    If applejacks is capable of perceiving something and understanding it, you assume that because you cannot do the same that such does not exist? More people in this world are capable of sight than those who are not. More people are capable of hearing than those who are not. More people are capable of smell than those who are not. More people witness the divinity that transcends mankind than those who do not.

    Losing one's vision does not remove the evidence of the light, nor does losing ones grace remove the evidence of the divine.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post


    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    So beautiful. I relate to every word. Last night I rewatched "Secrets of the Universe" and I was wishing I could pass over the event horizon. I have a feeling I would still exist. Very synchy post here.



    Religion is here to stay in one form or another for the foreseeable future and beyond I would imagine. If aliens landed tomorrow humans would worship them or go to war with them. Probably a combination of both. I would still be sitting here minding my own business unless they personally sought me out.



    I would watch every broadcast from them but I would be cautious. I would neither worship or go to war. I kind of hope it continues to unfold in such a way that some awesome visitors from other galaxies find a way to visit since I won't be taking any trips into space ever. Too dark out there without an atmosphere. *is scared of pitch black*

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    People are in different places in their life. It doesn't upset me when people have different views. I don't love people based on their religious beliefs I love them because of who they are.
    Do you believe in Hell Maritsa?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Do you believe in Hell Maritsa?
    Why are you nitpicking at me?

    Answer: no
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    No.

    Have you read this paper? It was the first thing that came to mind upon reading that paragraph -- the original, and now the rehashing below -- where you make an argument that is itself based on a failure of logic. Link: http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.pdf

    It wouldn't bother me, but you've been pretty obnoxious imo...though I may just be too crotchety for what you intend as fun and games.
    oh this is marvellous.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Why are you nitpicking at me?

    Answer: no
    Asking someone who believes in god whether or not they believe in Hell is not really a nitpick. It is of fundamental importance. You have been agreeing with people in this thread who follow religions they depict as moral, but if they examined the core of their beliefs, they would find they would have no choice but to accept that you are destined to hell for your lack of faithfulness in their god's teachings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    It does when you assume that you are capable of reasoning a sound answer to the question and when you assume that your abilities of perception are adequate enough to perceive the evidence. At the end of the day, you can either witness something and understand it, or you cannot. If one can do these things, it does not necessarily mean that it may be transferred to another.

    If applejacks is capable of perceiving something and understanding it, you assume that because you cannot do the same that such does not exist? More people in this world are capable of sight than those who are not. More people are capable of hearing than those who are not. More people are capable of smell than those who are not. More people witness the divinity that transcends mankind than those who do not.

    Losing one's vision does not remove the evidence of the light, nor does losing ones grace remove the evidence of the divine.
    Well, firstly, you believe that it is acceptable for your god to send people to hell for not believing in god, even though you have admitted they do not have the adequate senses to observe such an entity. They are also unable to take his existence on faith through assurances about his virtues, or out of fear of punishment.

    Secondly...again...at the end of the day, no you cannot simply "either witness something and understand it, or you cannot" in regards god. You simply cannot observe the supernatural, it is a complete oxymoron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Asking someone who believes in god whether or not they believe in Hell is not really a nitpick. It is of fundamental importance. You have been agreeing with people in this thread who follow religions they depict as moral, but if they examined the core of their beliefs, they would find they would have no choice but to accept that you are destined to hell for your lack of faithfulness in their god's teachings.
    Faith and religion are individual and different for everyone. I don't know where you are getting at

    In my family we weren't told that bad people go to hell.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Well, firstly, you believe that it is acceptable for your god to send people to hell for not believing in god, even though you have admitted they do not have the adequate senses to observe such an entity. They are also unable to take his existence on faith through assurances about his virtues, or out of fear of punishment.

    Secondly...again...at the end of the day, no you cannot simply "either witness something and understand it, or you cannot" in regards god. You simply cannot observe the supernatural, it is a complete oxymoron.
    You don't recognize the existence of free-will within Christianity? You can choose to take God's hand, and thus be with him eternally, or you can reject him. God doesn't punish or condemn, he simply doesn't help. Why would he not help? Because that's what sin is: refusing God's help.

    It's called revelation.

    Although you logic that God must not exist, nor be immoral, you still assume that this is due to having higher logic than those who do, when you have no proof that the reverse is not true; that it is a flaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Faith and religion are individual and different for everyone. I don't know where you are getting at

    In my family we weren't told that bad people go to hell.
    There are many thousands of different sects of religion, true, but at their core, the Abrahamic religions are fundamentally evil institutions. People who do well to not focus on the hurt feelings of their god, and instead focus on flesh and blood people who certainly exist.

    It seems that many are ignorant even of the doctrines attributed to god, nevermind of god itself. Why focus on defending such a person?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    There are many thousands of different sects of religion, true, but at their core, the Abrahamic religions are fundamentally evil institutions. People who do well to not focus on the hurt feelings of their god, and instead focus on flesh and blood people who certainly exist.

    It seems that many are ignorant even of the doctrines attributed to god, nevermind of god itself. Why focus on defending such a person?
    People can and have used the best tools as weapons. That is where evil comes from.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    You don't recognize the existence of free-will within Christianity? You can choose to take God's hand, and thus be with him eternally, or you can reject him. God doesn't punish or condemn, he simply doesn't help. Why would he not help? Because that's what sin is: refusing God's help.

    It's called revelation.
    You are obviously ignorant of Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Although you logic that God must not exist, nor be immoral, you still assume that this is due to having higher logic than those who do, when you have no proof that the reverse is not true; that it is a flaw.
    I did not say that God must not exist: I said that the supernatural does not exist. There is zero evidence for it. If you define god as supernatural, then naturally, yes, it does not exist. I am only certain that a moral god, as defined by the Abrahamic religions, definitely does not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    People can and have used the best tools as weapons. That is where evil comes from.
    Depends on how you define tools/weapons. The doctrine of Damnation is the most evil ideology ever devised, but it is not something that physically exists. I do not believe in absolute "good" and "evil": I consider those as only possible in a world of absolute certainties, but I do think that those who believe that the doctrine of Damnation is acceptable are the closest personifications of evil if there are any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    You are obviously ignorant of Scripture.

    I did not say that God must not exist: I said that the supernatural does not exist. There is zero evidence for it. If you define god as supernatural, then naturally, yes, it does not exist. I am only certain that a moral god, defined by the Abrahamic religions, definitely does not exist.
    In the Old Testament, God punished humanity numerously and severely. You quote my namesake in this thread, yet you don't understand them at all. Jesus was a promise from God to humanity, that never again would he punish humanity, and that he would give his only Son as both proof and the way to life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Depends on how you define tools/weapons. The doctrine of Damnation is the most evil ideology ever devised, but it is not something that physically exists. I do not believe in absolute "good" and "evil": I consider those as only possible in a world of absolute certainties, but I do think that those who believe that the doctrine of Damnation is acceptable are the closest personifications of evil if there are any.
    Okay. I'm trying to not engage in a conversation with you. I'm also trying to show you that I'm still listening to your view
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    "In spite of all the yearnings of men, no one can produce a single fact or reason to support the belief in God and in personal immortality."- Clarence Darrow

    "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man. - Alexander Hamilton


    @Subteigh - we will just have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind about God's existence. His invisible qualities are self evident in all of creation (Romans 1:20), combined with The Bible, His living word which has and will endure for all time, as He's stated it would (Matthew 24:35).
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Depends on how you define tools/weapons. The doctrine of Damnation is the most evil ideology ever devised, but it is not something that physically exists. I do not believe in absolute "good" and "evil": I consider those as only possible in a world of absolute certainties, but I do think that those who believe that the doctrine of Damnation is acceptable are the closest personifications of evil if there are any.
    You make it sound as though God wants to damn people. He's very clear- God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4. This is the only reason why He even delays the second coming of Christ, and will wait until all of the earth has had the opportunity to hear the gospel and just accept His invitation to stop sinning and receive grace.

    I personally don't like the ideology of hell. Who does? That doesn't mean I can close my eyes and wish it away. God is an infinite God. He has no beginning and no end. We hit God with our hearts when we turned from Him. There leaves only two choices- be reconciled, or be separated.

    God, an infinite God, breathed life into us so that we might exist (infinitely). His breath gave us life. All He asks is that we accept Him for forgiveness for what our hearts condemn us for anyways, which is all the wrong we have done in our life- the wrong we very well know we've done.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I did not say that God must not exist: I said that the supernatural does not exist. There is zero evidence for it. If you define god as supernatural, then naturally, yes, it does not exist. I am only certain that a moral god, as defined by the Abrahamic religions, definitely does not exist.

    When I use the term supernatural I am just using dictionary definition and I wonder if everyone here is too? I am used to people having their own or alternate definitions of words that is why I ask.

    (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
    If that is your definition too then I am on the same page. I do believe there are things beyond scientific understanding. They might be understood at some point but not yet. Many mental health problems are still beyond scientific understanding as far as I am concerned, just by the disclaimer that they do not know what causes many of these conditions. I am very aware that psychiatrists often lump people with supernatural types of experiences in with the mentally ill. There needs to be a lot more research done on the human brain and psyche. Being naturally introverted looking inward is usually the first thing I do when I am having trouble working something out. Reaching out to any outside forces would be the next logical step when unable to find my own answers. I also include doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists as those outside forces.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    "In spite of all the yearnings of men, no one can produce a single fact or reason to support the belief in God and in personal immortality."- Clarence Darrow

    "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man. - Alexander Hamilton


    @Subteigh - we will just have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind about God's existence. His invisible qualities are self evident in all of creation (Romans 1:20), combined with The Bible, His living word which has and will endure for all time, as He's stated it would (Matthew 24:35).
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Pinker
    The scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment, the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their apologists. The elevation of parochial values to the realm of the sacred is a license to dismiss other people’s interests, and an imperative to reject the possibility of compromise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins
    The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Stuart Mill
    It may be objected, “But some received principles, especially on the highest and most vital subjects, are more than half-truths. The Christian morality, for instance, is the whole truth on that subject, and if any one teaches a morality which varies from it, he is wholly in error.” … But before pronouncing what Christian morality is or is not, it would be desirable to decide what is meant by Christian morality. If it means the morality of the New Testament, I wonder that any one who derives his knowledge of this from the book itself, can suppose that it was announced, or intended, as a complete doctrine of morals. The Gospel always refers to a pre-existing morality, and confines its precepts to the particulars in which that morality was to be corrected, or superseded by a wider and higher… St. Paul, a declared enemy to this Judaical mode of interpreting the doctrine and filling up the scheme of his Master, equally assumes a pre-existing morality, namely, that of the Greeks and Romans; and his advice to Christians is in a great measure a system of accommodation to that; even to the extent of giving an apparent sanction to slavery. What is called Christian, but should rather be termed theological, morality, was not the work of Christ or the Apostles, but is of much later origin… That mankind owe a great debt to this morality, and to its early teachers, I should be the last person to deny; but I do not scruple to say of it, that it is, in many important points, incomplete and one-sided, and that unless ideas and feelings, not sanctioned by it, had contributed to the formation of European life and character, human affairs would have been in a worse condition than they now are. Christian morality (so called) has all the characters of a reaction; it is, in great part, a protest against Paganism. Its ideal is negative rather than positive; passive rather than active; Innocence rather than Nobleness; Abstinence from Evil, rather than energetic Pursuit of Good: in its precepts (as has been well said) “thou shalt not” predominates unduly over “thou shalt.” In its horror of sensuality, it made an idol of asceticism, which has been gradually compromised away into one of legality. It holds out the hope of heaven and the threat of hell, as the appointed and appropriate motives to a virtuous life: in this falling far below the best of the ancients, and doing what lies in it to give to human morality an essentially selfish character, by disconnecting each man’s feelings of duty from the interests of his fellow-creatures, except so far as a self-interested inducement is offered to him for consulting them. It is essentially a doctrine of passive obedience; it inculcates submission to all authorities found established; who indeed are not to be actively obeyed when they command what religion forbids, but who are not to be resisted, far less rebelled against, for any amount of wrong to ourselves. And while, in the morality of the best Pagan nations, duty to the State holds even a disproportionate place, infringing on the just liberty of the individual; in purely Christian ethics, that grand department of duty is scarcely noticed or acknowledged. It is in the Koran, not the New Testament, that we read the maxim—"A ruler who appoints any man to an office, when there is in his dominions another man better qualified for it, sins against God and against the State.“ What little recognition the idea of obligation to the public obtains in modern morality, is derived from Greek and Roman sources, not from Christian; as, even in the morality of private life, whatever exists of magnanimity, highmindedness, personal dignity, even the sense of honour, is derived from the purely human, not the religious part of our education, and never could have grown out of a standard of ethics in which the only worth, professedly recognised, is that of obedience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
    There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dirac
    I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Darwin
    But I was very unwilling to give up my belief;—I feel sure of this for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.

    And this is a damnable doctrine.
    ..
    Last edited by Not A Communist Shill; 03-10-2016 at 05:58 PM.

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    Where's the person who tries to find the individual and the good in others?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    I'm quite capable of pulling up as many or more quotes on the infinite love, grace, mercy, justice, and compassion of God.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    When I use the term supernatural I am just using dictionary definition and I wonder if everyone here is too? I am used to people having their own or alternate definitions of words that is why I ask.

    (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
    If that is your definition too then I am on the same page. I do believe there are things beyond scientific understanding. They might be understood at some point but not yet. Many mental health problems are still beyond scientific understanding as far as I am concerned, just by the disclaimer that they do not know what causes many of these conditions. I am very aware that psychiatrists often lump people with supernatural types of experiences in with the mentally ill. There needs to be a lot more research done on the human brain and psyche. Being naturally introverted looking inward is usually the first thing I do when I am having trouble working something out. Reaching out to any outside forces would be the next logical step when unable to find my own answers.
    It is important if using such a definition not to hide behind vagueness as a way of demonstrating that a view/your view (not you, but the religious view ) is/may be correct. Something which is supernatural is necessarily unobservable, never an observable phenomenon within nature, and is thus outside the realm of science. But that is not to admit defeat or to concede that the supernatural might be possible: rather, it actually says there is nothing which is outside the realm of science, because anything that is within the observable laws of nature is all there is. There will never be an observation that will disprove that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    You make it sound as though God wants to damn people. He's very clear- God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4. This is the only reason why He even delays the second coming of Christ, and will wait until all of the earth has had the opportunity to hear the gospel and just accept His invitation to stop sinning and receive grace.

    I personally don't like the ideology of hell. Who does? That doesn't mean I can close my eyes and wish it away. God is an infinite God. He has no beginning and no end. We hit God with our hearts when we turned from Him. There leaves only two choices- be reconciled, or be separated.

    God, an infinite God, breathed life into us so that we might exist (infinitely). His breath gave us life. All He asks is that we accept Him for forgiveness for what our hearts condemn us for anyways, which is all the wrong we have done in our life- the wrong we very well know we've done.
    God has no excuse. It doesn't matter what "sin" a mortal person has done: eternal damnation is utterly disproportionate (in case it is not obvious, I think it is excessively cruel). I am shocked that people can justify genocide and such awful cruelty as envisioned in the doctrine of Damnation. This deity is absolutely described as far more evil than any person who has ever lived.

    I am astonished how people such as yourself think it acceptable that people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Bill Gates etc. will burn in hell for eternity. If god did not want to send people there, he would not send people there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Where's the person who tries to find the individual and the good in others?
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    God has no excuse. It doesn't matter what "sin" a mortal person has done: eternal damnation is utterly disproportionate (in case it is not obvious, I think it is excessively cruel). I am shocked that people can justify genocide and such awful cruelty as envisioned in the doctrine of Damnation. This deity is absolutely described as far more evil than any person who has ever lived.

    I am astonished how people such as yourself think it acceptable that people like Anne Frank, Albert Einstein, Bill Gates etc. will burn in hell for eternity. If god did not want to send people there, he would not send people there.
    I do not know who has come to Christ and who has not. I make no assumptions about the lives and eternities of Anne, Albert, or Bill. But I do know that the wages of sin is death. And I know that I've done terrible things in my life- awful things that ripple out and damage people in ways I had not dreamed of or anticipated. And I buckle in thankfulness under the overwhelming grace that I have personally received despite these things.

    And don't believe for a moment that I wish hell for anyone, or desire any one to be separated from God.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    I do not know who has come to Christ and who has not. I make no assumptions about the lives and eternities of Anne, Albert, or Bill. But I do know that the wages of sin is death. And I know that I've done terrible things in my life- awful things that ripple out and damage people in ways I had not dreamed of or anticipated. And I buckle in thankfulness under the overwhelming grace that I have personally received despite these things.

    And don't believe for a moment that I wish hell for anyone, or desire any one to be separated from God.
    If Anne Frank did not accept Christ as her Saviour, does that mean she will burn in hell for eternity?

    What if someone found the god of the Old Testament (who endorsed genocide, rape, and slavery), and the Jesus of the New Testament (who promoted the idea that the road to heaven was narrow and that most people who have ever lived would burn in hell for eternity for simply not following his awful religion) utterly abominable? Surely these are the very people who are worth saving?

    You clearly have a very warped sense of ethics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    You should consider a type that is a cold rationalists for yourself
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If Anne Frank did not accept Christ as her Saviour, does that mean she will burn in hell for eternity?

    What if someone found the god of the Old Testament (who endorsed genocide, rape, and slavery), and the Jesus of the New Testament (who promoted the idea that the road to heaven was narrow and that most people who have ever lived would burn in hell for eternity for simply not following his awful religion) utterly abominable? Surely these are the very people who are worth saving?

    You clearly have a very warped sense of ethics.
    Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to God the Father except through Him. This is what I believe. I do not know who has or will make that decision. But I do know that God is good. He is light, truth, love, justice, and mercy, despite what you try to say through a biased read of scripture without examining context or reason of action.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Me thinks your beef is more with free-will and less with God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to God the Father except through Him. This is what I believe. I do not know who has or will make that decision. But I do know that God is good. He is light, truth, love, justice, and mercy, despite what you try to say through a biased read of scripture without examining context or reason of action.
    Not even the Nazis stooped so low as to burn Anne Frank.

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