View Poll Results: Do you believe in God?

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  • Yes

    37 41.57%
  • No

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    13 14.61%
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Thread: Do you believe in God?

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    I truly hate this topic of conversation because all it leads to is pointless debates and nitpicking and it goes nowhere. Ill give my answer for @sapphire

    I did grow up in a christian home so, I do believe in God because,for me, thats normal. Ive never been abused by anyone claiming the title of christian, actually its the exact opposite. My church is full of absolute unconditional love, its welcoming. So much so to the point that we were accused of being a cult. Ive had this on and off relationship with God though. Ive gotten saved, I dont know how many times in my life and it usually wears off within three days, I get upset because I cant hear God like other christians in my life, or I try to stop myself from commiting a sin but fail. Recently I told God, "ya know what? I dont really know if you exist, but if you do, you'll have to give me a sign beyond any shadow of a doubt.' People always tell me stories of all these miraculous things that have happened in their lives, and Ive witnessed some myself but then its just like, here I am mundane, dont really know why Im not experiencing these revelations or having God show up in a way that I personally know its him. Ive renounced the title christian for now because it doesnt fit my lifestyle. Uhh. Kind of a ramble...but there it is...

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    I... am generally not a fan of the concept of believing.... in anything. I try to get by without it as much as I can. And I find the notion of a deity rather absurd and uninteresting, considering how it came about to exist (historically) in the first place.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    Last edited by Skepsis; 03-10-2016 at 02:11 PM. Reason: added text
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post


    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    <3
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post


    *edit(added): Not trying to create an argument, or inflame passions, but I find his words representational of my own thoughts. I find it far better to not debate the existence of God because of how pointless it truly is. It is intellectually more preferable to start out with idea that our species was born in ignorance and is unfolding into a universe we are only beginning to understand. The creation of religion was just an early part of the path taken on our journey to understanding.
    So beautiful. I relate to every word. Last night I rewatched "Secrets of the Universe" and I was wishing I could pass over the event horizon. I have a feeling I would still exist. Very synchy post here.



    Religion is here to stay in one form or another for the foreseeable future and beyond I would imagine. If aliens landed tomorrow humans would worship them or go to war with them. Probably a combination of both. I would still be sitting here minding my own business unless they personally sought me out.



    I would watch every broadcast from them but I would be cautious. I would neither worship or go to war. I kind of hope it continues to unfold in such a way that some awesome visitors from other galaxies find a way to visit since I won't be taking any trips into space ever. Too dark out there without an atmosphere. *is scared of pitch black*

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    So beautiful. I relate to every word. Last night I rewatched "Secrets of the Universe" and I was wishing I could pass over the event horizon. I have a feeling I would still exist. Very synchy post here.



    Religion is here to stay in one form or another for the foreseeable future and beyond I would imagine. If aliens landed tomorrow humans would worship them or go to war with them. Probably a combination of both. I would still be sitting here minding my own business unless they personally sought me out.



    I would watch every broadcast from them but I would be cautious. I would neither worship or go to war. I kind of hope it continues to unfold in such a way that some awesome visitors from other galaxies find a way to visit since I won't be taking any trips into space ever. Too dark out there without an atmosphere. *is scared of pitch black*
    ahaha, not I. I always thought it would be well worth my life just to travel through our own solar system and see the outer gas giants firsthand. As for intelligent alien life, once we overcome the communication barrier, just imagine what kind of conversations could take place and what we would learn before our planet is pillaged for resources and the few chosen kept alive or captured for research purposes.

    As for religion, it is here to stay, for hundreds if not thousands of more years. It is the secularists and non-believers I fear for.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Re: free will and the punishment of non-belief with eternal damnation -- yikes.

    I agree it seems like an overreaction for a being to condemn its creations to eternal damnation -- billions and trillions of years x infinity -- for what they did in the 0-110 years they lived on Earth.

    ... or is the reasoning that the "deviant" beings, including nonbelievers who were nevertheless loving and helpful people during their lives, have proven themselves unworthy of this god's love?

    I really want to know. I find Christianity (as the religion I'm most familiar w) fascinating, but I cannot bring myself to follow it or any other religion that I know of.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Re: free will and the punishment of non-belief with eternal damnation -- yikes.

    I agree it seems like an overreaction for a being to condemn its creations to eternal damnation -- billions and trillions of years x infinity -- for what they did in the 0-110 years they lived on Earth.

    ... or is the reasoning that the "deviant" beings, including nonbelievers who were nevertheless loving and helpful people during their lives, have proven themselves unworthy of this god's love?

    I really want to know. I find Christianity (as the religion I'm most familiar w) fascinating, but Incannot bring myself to worship what I consider such an unjust god.
    I understand. Nobody likes the idea of hell. But nobody likes the idea that H i t l e r can end up in the same place as, say, Mother Teresa. What is justice? What is mercy? What is redemption? Who can know a man or woman's heart but God?

    "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for they shall inherit the earth."

    The point is, we come to God not of our own doing, so that no one may boast, and so that pride may no longer tempt or corrupt us once in heaven. We come completely on grace through faith, and not on works.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skepticurus View Post
    ahaha, not I. I always thought it would be well worth my life just to travel through our own solar system and see the outer gas giants firsthand. As for intelligent alien life, once we overcome the communication barrier, just imagine what kind of conversations could take place and what we would learn before our planet is pillaged for resources and the few chosen kept alive or captured for research purposes.

    As for religion, it is here to stay, for hundreds if not thousands of more years. It is the secularists and non-believers I fear for.
    LOL, now even aliens will rape and pillage. Earthlings can't catch a break. I kind of liked the way Jodi Foster connected in "contact". That would be beautiful to experience. I find Spielberg's aliens in Extant more relatable too even if they went about things the wrong way, at first, but hey, they didn't know and now they do . I wouldn't mind being a humanoid hybrid with special powers. I would not be inclined to be a bug-like species of alien, visiting earth, as people hate creepy crawlies. How long before we would start loading up missiles with industrial strength "Raid" even if they meant no harm? :/

    Oh and I do plan to see it all, once I am dead. I don't trust the tech that will come about in my lifetime to get me anywhere quickly and safely. I would step through a wormhole in a minute if it looked enticing enough but only when I am older. I still have reasons to be here for now. I have eternity to explore anything beyond this but only one life as the me, that I am now, and I want to spend the rest of it on earth with my mind in space. If my next life is alien from another dimension I will stop by and say hello. You might not be able to see or hear me because of an unrecognizable form that the human mind can't register but I will do it.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    LOL, now even aliens will rape and pillage. Earthlings can't catch a break. I kind of liked the way Jodi Foster connected in "contact". That would be beautiful to experience. I find Spielberg's aliens in Extant more relatable too even if they went about things the wrong way, at first, but hey, they didn't know and now they do . I wouldn't mind being a humanoid hybrid with special powers. I would not be inclined to be a bug-like species of alien, visiting earth, as people hate creepy crawlies. How long before we would start loading up missiles with industrial strength "Raid" even if they meant no harm? :/
    I would actually expect that an advanced alien civilization will not be so inclined, that they will be of a higher learning and more rational that we, but I do not want to be too naive either..... just in case. I'm prepared to politely decline if they request for us to be a part of their life cycle though.

    Given our own history, I'm more worried of how ignorant people would react to them.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    LOL, now even aliens will rape and pillage.
    This makes me think of an idea for an excellent(relative) B-movie: Vikings from Outer Space.
    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    "In spite of all the yearnings of men, no one can produce a single fact or reason to support the belief in God and in personal immortality."- Clarence Darrow

    "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man. - Alexander Hamilton


    @Subteigh - we will just have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind about God's existence. His invisible qualities are self evident in all of creation (Romans 1:20), combined with The Bible, His living word which has and will endure for all time, as He's stated it would (Matthew 24:35).
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    "In spite of all the yearnings of men, no one can produce a single fact or reason to support the belief in God and in personal immortality."- Clarence Darrow

    "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man. - Alexander Hamilton


    @Subteigh - we will just have to agree to disagree. There is no doubt in my mind about God's existence. His invisible qualities are self evident in all of creation (Romans 1:20), combined with The Bible, His living word which has and will endure for all time, as He's stated it would (Matthew 24:35).
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Pinker
    The scriptures present a God who delights in genocide, rape, slavery, and the execution of nonconformists, and for millennia those writings were used to rationalize the massacre of infidels, the ownership of women, the beating of children, dominion over animals, and the persecution of heretics and homosexuals. Humanitarian reforms such as the elimination of cruel punishment, the dissemination of empathy-inducing novels, and the abolition of slavery were met with fierce opposition in their time by ecclesiastical authorities and their apologists. The elevation of parochial values to the realm of the sacred is a license to dismiss other people’s interests, and an imperative to reject the possibility of compromise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins
    The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Stuart Mill
    It may be objected, “But some received principles, especially on the highest and most vital subjects, are more than half-truths. The Christian morality, for instance, is the whole truth on that subject, and if any one teaches a morality which varies from it, he is wholly in error.” … But before pronouncing what Christian morality is or is not, it would be desirable to decide what is meant by Christian morality. If it means the morality of the New Testament, I wonder that any one who derives his knowledge of this from the book itself, can suppose that it was announced, or intended, as a complete doctrine of morals. The Gospel always refers to a pre-existing morality, and confines its precepts to the particulars in which that morality was to be corrected, or superseded by a wider and higher… St. Paul, a declared enemy to this Judaical mode of interpreting the doctrine and filling up the scheme of his Master, equally assumes a pre-existing morality, namely, that of the Greeks and Romans; and his advice to Christians is in a great measure a system of accommodation to that; even to the extent of giving an apparent sanction to slavery. What is called Christian, but should rather be termed theological, morality, was not the work of Christ or the Apostles, but is of much later origin… That mankind owe a great debt to this morality, and to its early teachers, I should be the last person to deny; but I do not scruple to say of it, that it is, in many important points, incomplete and one-sided, and that unless ideas and feelings, not sanctioned by it, had contributed to the formation of European life and character, human affairs would have been in a worse condition than they now are. Christian morality (so called) has all the characters of a reaction; it is, in great part, a protest against Paganism. Its ideal is negative rather than positive; passive rather than active; Innocence rather than Nobleness; Abstinence from Evil, rather than energetic Pursuit of Good: in its precepts (as has been well said) “thou shalt not” predominates unduly over “thou shalt.” In its horror of sensuality, it made an idol of asceticism, which has been gradually compromised away into one of legality. It holds out the hope of heaven and the threat of hell, as the appointed and appropriate motives to a virtuous life: in this falling far below the best of the ancients, and doing what lies in it to give to human morality an essentially selfish character, by disconnecting each man’s feelings of duty from the interests of his fellow-creatures, except so far as a self-interested inducement is offered to him for consulting them. It is essentially a doctrine of passive obedience; it inculcates submission to all authorities found established; who indeed are not to be actively obeyed when they command what religion forbids, but who are not to be resisted, far less rebelled against, for any amount of wrong to ourselves. And while, in the morality of the best Pagan nations, duty to the State holds even a disproportionate place, infringing on the just liberty of the individual; in purely Christian ethics, that grand department of duty is scarcely noticed or acknowledged. It is in the Koran, not the New Testament, that we read the maxim—"A ruler who appoints any man to an office, when there is in his dominions another man better qualified for it, sins against God and against the State.“ What little recognition the idea of obligation to the public obtains in modern morality, is derived from Greek and Roman sources, not from Christian; as, even in the morality of private life, whatever exists of magnanimity, highmindedness, personal dignity, even the sense of honour, is derived from the purely human, not the religious part of our education, and never could have grown out of a standard of ethics in which the only worth, professedly recognised, is that of obedience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
    There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence. You do not, for instance find that attitude in Socrates. You find him quite bland and urbane toward the people who would not listen to him; and it is, to my mind, far more worthy of a sage to take that line than to take the line of indignation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dirac
    I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Darwin
    But I was very unwilling to give up my belief;—I feel sure of this for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans and manuscripts being discovered at Pompeii or elsewhere which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.

    And this is a damnable doctrine.
    ..

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    I'm quite capable of pulling up as many or more quotes on the infinite love, grace, mercy, justice, and compassion of God.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Let's not question people's types in this thread, please, @Maritsa and @Jeremy8419. It's moving toward an ad hominem response and away from rational debate of ideas...and this is a fairly interesting exchange.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Let's not question people's types in this thread, please, @Maritsa and @Jeremy8419. It's moving toward an ad hominem response and away from rational debate of ideas...and this is a fairly interesting exchange.
    I'm not questioning his type. I'm pointing out that he is operating in his Role. Suggestive function, in his case, manual labor, is a solution to this.

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    “People who have a religion should be glad, for not everyone has the gift of believing in heavenly things. You don't necessarily even have to be afraid of punishment after death; purgatory, hell, and heaven are things that a lot of people can't accept, but still a religion, it doesn't matter which, keeps a person on the right path. It isn't the fear of God but the upholding of one's own honor and conscience. How noble and good everyone could be if, every evening before falling asleep, they were to recall to their minds the events of the while day and consider exactly what has been good and bad. Then, without realizing it you try to improve yourself at the start of each new day; of course, you achieve quite a lot in the course of time. Anyone can do this, it costs nothing and is certainly very helpful. Whoever doesn't know it must learn and find by experience that: "A quiet conscience makes one strong!" ~ Anne Frank, less than a year before she died.

    Shocking that anyone could believe that such a person deserves to suffer for eternity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    “People who have a religion should be glad, for not everyone has the gift of believing in heavenly things. You don't necessarily even have to be afraid of punishment after death; purgatory, hell, and heaven are things that a lot of people can't accept, but still a religion, it doesn't matter which, keeps a person on the right path. It isn't the fear of God but the upholding of one's own honor and conscience. How noble and good everyone could be if, every evening before falling asleep, they were to recall to their minds the events of the while day and consider exactly what has been good and bad. Then, without realizing it you try to improve yourself at the start of each new day; of course, you achieve quite a lot in the course of time. Anyone can do this, it costs nothing and is certainly very helpful. Whoever doesn't know it must learn and find by experience that: "A quiet conscience makes one strong!" ~ Anne Frank, less than a year before she died.

    Shocking that anyone could believe that such a person deserves to suffer for eternity.
    You're very quick to reason that God doesn't exist despite the astounding wonders of creation, and yet you refuse to reason that an individual named Anne, whom God loves, who was under God's original covenant, may not have been given divine grace through Jesus during her last few moments of life because of her circumstances, when God was able and willing to give grace to a thief (whom He also loved) dying on a cross.

    This is turning from a debate of reason to a debate of bias.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    You're very quick to reason that God doesn't exist despite the astounding wonders of creation, and yet you refuse to reason that an individual named Anne, whom God loves, who was under God's original covenant, may not have been given divine grace through Jesus during her last few moments of life.

    This is turning from a debate of reason to a debate of bias.
    The "wonders of creation" can be reasoned to exist from observation: it is the practical results of empiricism that mean that they can be satisfactorily said to exist. It is not jumping the gun to say that something which cannot be observed does not exist, but rather a representation of the facts. I talk only of "god": it can be even more readily said that a moral god does not exist, if the only god put forward is one that causes eternally suffering.

    The theology which says that the original covenant god made with the Jews is still applicable to Jews after Jesus's death is not consistent with Christian ideology (at least as represented in Scripture). Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for the whole world at the time of his death, according to his belief, and with the destruction of the Temple, it absolutely cannot be said that the Jews are making their obligatory sacrifices to Yahweh. In addition, the covenant that god made with the Jews is conditional on accepting the Messiah: if Jews do not accept Christ as their Saviour, as their sacrificial lamb, they are eternally damned. Jesus was perfectly clear in his message to his fellow Jews, and to the wider world on the Gentiles. As you said "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to God the Father except through Him."

    If you wanted a debate of reason, you would have provided actually direct evidence of god, and explained why there is virtue in believing. There is no Reason in believing contrary to your senses, or contrary to your ethics, and there is no logic for punishing people who are unable to believe for those reasons. Again, what is the virtue in believing in god? You shouldn't do good because god tells you, but because it is good. That should be perfectly simple. None of this hate towards good people who happen to be non-Christians, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The theology which says that the original covenant god made with the Jews is still applicable to Jews after Jesus's death is not consistent with Christian ideology (at least as represented in Scripture). Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for the whole world at the time of his death, according to his belief, and with the destruction of the Temple, it absolutely cannot be said that the Jews are making their obligatory sacrifices to Yahweh. In addition, the covenant that god made with the Jews is conditional on accepting the Messiah: if Jews do not accept Christ as their Saviour, as their sacrificial lamb, they are eternally damned. Jesus was perfectly clear in his message to his fellow Jews, and to the wider world on the Gentiles. As you said "Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to God the Father except through Him."
    Correct. But the point I am making about Jews being under the original covenant is that we have seen time and time and time and time again when God, out of his tremendous love for the jewish people - His people - redeemed them. Therefore, you do not know if God gave a vision or a miracle or a gospel reading of Christ to any or all of those in the concentration camps prior to their death. You just don't know.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Correct. But the point I am making about Jews being under the original covenant is that we have seen time and time and time and time again when God, out of his tremendous love for the jewish people - His people - redeemed them. Therefore, you do not know if God gave a vision or a miracle or a gospel reading of Christ to any or all of those in the concentration camps prior to their death. You just don't know.
    Next you will be saying that atheists and Muslims will be going to Heaven too. Maybe you'll even say this doctrine of Damnation is a charade to compel people to worship god, or that it is something invented to make god look bad.

    In which case...why all this effort directed towards god? People are clearly capable of great good without god, and without fear of punishment. If believing in god means you must justify the actions of an allegedly evil god, why believe at all? Only focus on doing good things, let god sort out the rest, if he exists. Perhaps in reality, god devised this hell business so as to reward those who find it abominable, and who need evidence before they believe in something.

    Anne Frank's father survived the horrors of Auschwitz by the way, and he didn't mention any such event.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    You're very quick to reason that God doesn't exist despite the astounding wonders of creation, and yet you refuse to reason that an individual named Anne, whom God loves, who was under God's original covenant, may not have been given divine grace through Jesus during her last few moments of life because of her circumstances, when God was able and willing to give grace to a thief (whom He also loved) dying on a cross.

    This is turning from a debate of reason to a debate of bias.
    So do you believe God forgives good people (people who were generally kind, loving, honest, helpful, etc) despite them not believing in what the Bible says? And if you do, is this in the Bible someplace?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    So do you believe God forgives good people (people who were generally kind, loving, honest, helpful, etc) despite them not believing in what the Bible says? And if you do, is this in the Bible someplace?
    Hey Sapphire

    Good question! God does forgive! There are a ton of places where He talks about forgiveness.

    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

    "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

    "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Christ forgave you." Ephesians 4:32

    "But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will the Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:15

    The point is to receive Christ's forgiveness, and to be so deeply humbled by this act of forgiveness that we can in turn forgive others. God's teaching is the very center of who God is- to love one another. To forgive. To show compassion. To be at peace with one another. To show mercy.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    The point is to receive Christ's forgiveness, and to be so deeply humbled by this act of forgiveness that we can in turn forgive others. God's teaching is the very center of who God is- to love one another. To forgive. To show compassion. To be at peace with one another. To show mercy.
    Why Christ's?

    Why not some other god who forgives without all the association with genocide, rape, damnation and lies?

    The truth is that we can choose to forgive others without believing in god, and this humbleness comes from us in the face of the universe which is infinitely vast compared to us. And infinitely vast compared to a pitiful religion built on lies, written by man which steals this knowledge for it's own vanity for it's own purposes.

    The truth tells us that we are small, the universe is vast. Man does not need an intermediary for this truth, we can see this plainly and without artifice or dogmaticism, without the need to push our beliefs on others, without damning unbelievers to hell, without prescriptions against all sort of things which man do out of love instead of hate.

    Man is small, so is religion infront of the universe. No man needs religion to be humble, just as no man needs religion to be forgiven, and no man needs religion to forgive. We are all capable of love and capable of receiving love. And that's all the truth we need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    Hey Sapphire

    Good question! God does forgive! There are a ton of places where He talks about forgiveness.

    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

    "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

    "Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another as Christ forgave you." Ephesians 4:32

    "But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will the Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:15

    The point is to receive Christ's forgiveness, and to be so deeply humbled by this act of forgiveness that we can in turn forgive others. God's teaching is the very center of who God is- to love one another. To forgive. To show compassion. To be at peace with one another. To show mercy.
    What if someone doesn't qualify, as @Jeremy8419 described, as someone who never heard the gospel? I mean, if a person heard it, considered it, and rejected it... but lived a life that would otherwise qualify him/her for heaven, is the Christian view that he/she would get in?

    And a similar question: You referenced Hi7ler, whom you said people wouldn't want where a good Christian was...if Hi7ler accepted Christ and asked your god for forgiveness, would he go to Heaven?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    So do you believe God forgives good people (people who were generally kind, loving, honest, helpful, etc) despite them not believing in what the Bible says? And if you do, is this in the Bible someplace?
    Fyi, in Catholicism, those who were not afforded the opportunity to know Christ in life are absolved, as are children 8 (used to be at least) years old and younger (though, generally, it's the age in childhood where a child becomes "aware" of right and wrong).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Fyi, in Catholicism, those who were not afforded the opportunity to know Christ in life are absolved, as are children 8 (used to be at least) years old and younger (though, generally, it's the age in childhood where a child becomes "aware" of right and wrong).
    Didn't the Catholic church worry people for centuries, and cause unbaptised infants to be buried in unconsecrated ground? Evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    So do you believe God forgives good people (people who were generally kind, loving, honest, helpful, etc) despite them not believing in what the Bible says? And if you do, is this in the Bible someplace?
    You didn't ask me but I am not going to sugarcoat what I was taught. According to the bible and the churches I explored it is only through being "saved" aka "born-again" that you are forgiven and receive the "gift" of forgiveness and everlasting life, There was no purgatory to atone and repent in either. Good people do not get into heaven for being good people alone. I think that last part might be the same for catholics and all christians.

    Many christians still believe catholics and other similar religions are all going to hell. I didn't read all the posts here so I am not sure what denomination @applejacks is but it sounds to be one of similar belief. She is just so sweet that I lose all heart to question her as I think her heart is in the right place and is only following scripture as it is taught to her.



    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    @Aylen - yes, thank you
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    I watched "how the earth was made" and I'm always amazed at the miracle that we are. In the vast space of chaotic energy, movement, we are safely (for now enclosed in this bubble. What an amazing phenomenon. We should be in awe of one another and where we are as we consciously realize our lot. Maybe in a way what represents God, faith to me is standing before this and being humbled by my existence.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    long talk about God / beliefs / experience with churches
    You seem like a person that looks for the truth regarding your beliefs, and trusts their own thoughts. So you should overlook the peculiar beliefs of specific churches, or specific people regarding religion. These are only superstitious, confused interpretations of very ancient texts that have been translated through six different languages. For example, we know there is no concept of hell in the ancient hebrew bible. That isn't any reason to toss away all the vital concepts - like any belief in God - along with the superstitions. People are constantly confused, reasonable attitudes can't really be expected, but despite the confusion... people are still groping their way toward answers. For most of human history people couldn't even read, and there were no printing presses, but they were still able to connect with God.

    "Most people I know who are Christian believe in god because they were taught to."
    There isn't an explanation for existence or a basis of right and wrong that isn't completely arbitrary without God. People that believe in God are clinging to the belief that there is something good and right which is true and not arbitrary. They're also clinging to the feeling they get from identifying with what they believe is good. Without that people would probably just be left with ambivalence and nihilism.

    "
    I am not sure if I would call what I believe in "god". It is a universal multi-dimensional force of creation, for lack of a shorter term. I don't believe that force has any personal feelings or preferences in how creation evolves itself and has probably gone through many changes of forms even before there was what we now call the universe."
    If you ascribe a set of forms to God you're forced to accommodate contradictory forms. Contradiction can exist temporarily within certain limits but it is self resolving in the broader context. Any kind of form is a limit imposed onto God and has reduced God to something less, this introduces confusion and contradiction... God is undefined and beyond fathoming in the same way that reality is eternal and limitless. We can't control God. God is God, we are just a part of that. And we are just part of existence...

    "Incidentally, I have never dreamt of the Christian god. I have however dreamt of the Christian Satan and demons on many occasions"

    If you read the ancient hebrew bible even the concept of Satan bears almost no resemblance to the figure thought about today, it is much more like a force compelling us toward destruction. It's hard to deny that force exists...
    As far as dreams, there is something to be said about keeping one foot in the real world, slip too far into the dreamworld and you can miss your whole life / neglect everything around you. What if God wanted you to be connected to the living world around you? Would you exclude God from your awareness in favor of slipping back into the dreamworld?

    You said some more interesting things about the shadow side and how you find redemption in it... coming to terms with the shadow amounts to the resolution of the shadow and some realization of the healthy form of the animal self. Admittedly this is something that alot of churches make difficult, sometimes impossible (though not all). But I wouldn't say in regular society you're any better off - at work you're completely smothered... even around your friends and family you're usually smothered. If you go and live up on a hill by yourself for the next 20 years... I don't think that's coming to terms with yourself either, it's just avoiding the issue and going off to die somewhere.
    So people need to be seen in whole, to accept one another and love one another in spite of that ugliness, but while not abandoning the ideal of a whole, redeemed self. I don't think you really can achieve true acceptance and love by abandoning the ideals because contradictions remain and are inherent.

    It is worth asking why we fall asleep in the first place. What is that which smothers us, why does it? And what is it that we need to keep us alive that we are missing?
    To some degree self-repression is inescapable, animals living in modern society will always be repressing themselves just to function. But then if we have internal contradictions, which may be rooted in contradictory experience, part of the self is not able to fully express, we are forced to smother it... so one partial remedy would be to avoid doing things that put you into contradictory states, another would be to find an accepting environment willing to tolerate and reconcile the contradictions. Hence the idea of groups of people coming together based on shared beliefs. And while the implementation is not perfect I don't really see a better alternative... if you go up and live on a hill for 20 years you will probably just wind up insane.
    Last edited by DogOfDanger; 01-23-2022 at 12:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    This is turning from a debate of reason to a debate of bias.
    Oh, sorry, apple. Debates and logic and such are Ti, which is paired with Fe for a reason. Ti exists to create a framework of defense for how someone feels. It has nothing to do with reality or facts. It is simply someone giving a structure for what they feel. Unless someone is playing devil's advocate or simply repeating someone else, all debates and logic are bias. Emotions and beliefs predicate all logic.

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    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    Important to note! People who share "indentical" socionics TIMs won't necessarily appear to be very similar, since they have have different backgrounds, experiences, capabilities, genetics, as well as different types in other typological systems (enneagram, instinctual variants, etc.) all of which also have a sway on compatibility and identification. Thus, Socionics type "identicals" won't necessarily be identical i.e. highly similar to each other, and not all people of "dual" types will seem interesting, attractive and appealing to each other.

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    @applejacks and @Aylen -- thank you for the explanation.

    I just can't do it. Fwiw, I think @Subteigh is making a lot of good points, though it looks like he is being willfully misunderstood at times (not so much by you, @apple).
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    @applejacks and @Aylen -- thank you for the explanation.

    I just can't do it. Fwiw, I think @Subteigh is making a lot of good points, though it looks like he is being willfully misunderstood at times (not so much by you, @apple).
    If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.
    Indeed. I don't think I was so strongly formed in my opinions until I first read the bible cover to cover!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Indeed. I don't think I was so strongly formed in my opinions until I first read the bible cover to cover!
    The bible is a prop, the study of the bible is often very limited by religious people. The bible is a pretty small book compared to how much can be read in one's life time, but the avoidance to actually reading it cover to cover is a psychological avoidance. It is a object of authority and fear.

    I find most religious people doubt and this doubt gnaws at them, and this doubt creates anxiety which they've been trained to feel when they doubt. Reading it and giving themselves the right to question it, to doubt it, to overcome it creates great anxiety in religious people.

    In the debate over our souls, I do not think religion loses easily to doubt, religion is constructed to salve our anxiety due to doubt and it does this by appropriating and controlling our capacity to love, our capacity to forgive, our capacity to take pleasure in sex, our capacity to do many of the things that are fulfilling.

    Religion however cannot erase the plain truth of our humanity, our intrinsic ability to love, to forgive, our freedom to do these things that in religion somehow only belong to believers in some ideology or another. And it is not merely the appropriation of theistic religions but also atheistic ones.

    You can love without religion, go anywhere and any place in this world and you see this every day, in every place where humans exist following whatever belief or no belief at all. And I believe that if you show it and practice it and tell others they don't need religion to show it and practice it, many will realize the truth as well.

    Escaping religion, escaping ideology often brings us into conflict and it is difficult to love and practice love in conflict but this is something that each individual can learn to do because it is one of the few ways we can put a end to all this madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by applejacks View Post
    If I may be so bold- you seem very kind yourself, sapphire. I would just encourage you to read the Bible yourself to see. It seems the biggest debate point between subteigh and I is the context for what God was doing in the Old Testament. But understanding this is critical, and I would just hope you would go directly to the source to find the truth, and not take his (or my) word for it.
    Thank you, @applejacks. I did read the Bible, long ago, and even used to own several versions, which have all been donated to Goodwill...I just can't get myself to accept that the stories in the Bible are anything more than myths, fables, and (I acknowledge) a few historical accounts that nevertheless don't convince me of Christianity. I'm not saying I'm too smart or too good for it; I just can't believe it.

    I do like a lot of the lessons, but then again those are also in other religions and non-religious morality. (Parts of the psalms are even almost verbatim what's in the Tao Te Ching, a fact I marveled at when I discovered it for myself...and I like that, for some reason.)

    You said earlier, though, that the Bible had been around and would be around forever...but it hasn't and won't (hasn't in fact, won't as a matter of my own prediction, I guess). And the whole, you won't get to Heaven if you don't believe makes me think auutomatically of third grade when kids told each other that if they didn't believe in Santa Claus they wouldn't get any presents...just, these things, besides what I personally consider the implausibility of the Bible stories, keep me from believing.

    ...all this on top of the quandary over whether there even is a god in the first place.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    I do like a lot of the lessons, but then again those are also in other religions and non-religious morality. (Parts of the psalms are even almost verbatim what's in the Tao Te Ching, a fact I marveled at when I discovered it for myself...and I like that, for some reason.)

    You said earlier, though, that the Bible had been around and would be around forever...but it hasn't and won't (hasn't in fact, won't as a matter of my own prediction, I guess). And the whole, you won't get to Heaven if you don't believe makes me think auutomatically of third grade when kids told each other that if they didn't believe in Santa Claus they wouldn't get any presents...just, these things, besides what I personally consider the implausibility of the Bible stories, keep me from believing.

    ...all this on top of the quandary over whether there even is a god in the first place.
    Thanks for the note and reference about the Tao Te Ching. I've never read it but would like to

    I didn't mean to indicate that the Bible had been around forever. It had to be written at some point, and the many dates of the books' origin is not necessarily a rabbit hole discussion I'd like to get into. I just meant that God said His word would endure forever. So the Bible isn't going anywhere. I respectfully note your prediction, however. [/QUOTE]
    And if God cares so wonderfully for flowers that are here today and gone tomorrow, won't he more surely care for you?- Matthew 6:30

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