Look; if you're going to juggle around everything we're not going to go anywhere. I am not seeing this EIE typing from any angle. He's as dry as they come.
Your answer is pretty good, but I think they can be quantified on some level; because of temperaments. People have a mixture of different temperaments.
But socionics and behavioral extroversion/introversion are correlated. What can you base an argument off of, if not observed behavior? Maybe this?:
This subjective awareness is actually by far the most accurate way to type people. Maybe that's why you're so terrible at typing peopleOriginally Posted by JuJu
If you can't do better than "the way he structures thoughts is Te," then you can't do it... Indicating there may be "stuff you don't understand."
On one hand you argue against behavioral typing for extraversion/introversion, on the other against subjective typing methods for her impressions of a Te thought structure. You're picking and choosing where to apply your criticisms, playing both sides of the fence. You can apply both these arguments to your own insinuations of EIE and render them all equally useless.
Quit your opportunism and trolling, crazed. We've taken it to PM.
What I am reasonably sure of is that he's a 3w4, but that's about it. He's very hard to type. I am considering LII now.
Erm, I don't think he was trolling. He did make an argument for his point though, which he has just as much right to do as anyone else here. It's annoying for you to dictate where a discussion begins and ends, since it's not like Juju or yourself are the sole masterminds behind Walken's type or whatever.
Sure, what I can dictate is where my involvement ends.
lol. yeah occasionally I see ENFxs act like juju.. using emotion to assert their supreme knowledge. they try to do it with opinions, and it just fails. must be the superid functions.
I don't care if you've taken it to PM. You don't have a monopoly on this conversation.
you can do that by saying nothing.
Last edited by crazedrat; 11-24-2009 at 09:21 AM.
IMO, Christopher Walken VIs as Rutger Hauer, SLE-Ti
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp
DCNH: Dominant
--> perhaps Normalizing
Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
As I told xkj220 in PM, the more I watch of C. Walken, the more I believe that he's INFp.
xkj220 is right, the way that Walken expresses himself is subdued, lacking the emphatic accenting typical of ENFj's speech, and sharp/tense/jittery gestures.
His gaze/demeanor remind me of INFps like Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Alice Cooper, etc.
My judgement before about Walken being Ni-ENFj was too superficial... It took watching nearly an hour of interviews to get the typing correct.
[QUOTE=JuJu;584567]As I told xkj220 in PM, the more I watch of C. Walken, the more I believe that he's INFp.
xkj220 is right, the way that Walken expresses himself is subdued, lacking the emphatic accenting typical of ENFj's speech, and sharp/tense/jittery gestures.
His gaze/demeanor remind me of INFps like Bob Dylan, Tom Petty, Alice Cooper, etc.
My judgement before about Walken being Ni-ENFj was too superficial... It took watching nearly an hour of interviews to get the typing correct.[/QUOTE
Again, everyone has to make this theory more complicated then it needs to be. I don't know where you get Infp from, never would have crossed my mind, which tells me that you know nothing of VI which is sad because I just started learning Socionics. Anyways, I can make a video and I can guarantee you that I will probably come across subdued, does this make me any other type then ENFJ? Guys, why do you insist that 16 types of people will behave and act exactly the same way. Environment does play a huge part in how someone will come across not just type!!!
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
As you say above, Morcheeba--you "just started learning Socionics..." So perhaps some of us should not be too surprised by your post.
You say Socionics is "simple." You're wrong. Socionics is complex.
To understand Socionics, one must understand the IM elements, (in theory and in their practical manifestations via actions, words, expressions, gestures, etc,) how they interact to form personality, how they influence all of the different intertype relations, how they manifest to create 16 general archetypes, which Socionics calls "personality types," etc.
Understanding Socionics has taken some very sharp minds years.
There are no shortcuts to fully understanding Socionics... Take a tip from one who's tried.
VI--the shortcut you espouse, Morcheeba--must be supplemented by research to make an informed typing... The old saying is true: looks can be deceiving.
Furthermore, despite what you wrote, no one "insisted the 16 types of people will behave and act exactly the same way." (No one even implied anything close to it, honestly... It seems as though that notion came straight out of your ass.)
This thread exemplifies well an overall trend among relative newcomers to this forum... Many of you are too quick to criticize--when frankly, most of you could benefit from reading the experts here rather than posting half-baked ideas that those of us who've been here for years have seen pass through, always unsuccessfully, multiple times (as yours now, Morcheeba.)
If you can explain--using Socionics--why the subject in question is a certain type, (as I did by explaining his use of Ni and Fe,) then great... We can discuss it like adults... If you "argue," yet cannot use Socionics to bolster your claims, you might as well use your time more constructively than posting about, essentially, nothing.
I am glad to see you've changed your mind a bit, but you are still incorrect, because walken is INTp-Ni.
FIRST OF ALL, I NEVER SAID IT WAS "SIMPLE" I SAID YOU GUYS MAKE IT TOO COMPLICATED. I'M NOT CRITIICIZING, I WAS MAKING AN EFFORT TO BETTER UNDERSTAND YOUR REASONING; I THINK IT'S GOOD FOR PEOPLE TO GO BACK AND FORTH ON SOMEONE'S TYPING, IT CAN BE CONSTRUCTIVE, I'M GONNA TAKE WHATEVER ANYONE SAYS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT EVEN IF THEY ARE SUPPOSED "EXPERTS", ESPECIALLY SOMEONE THAT FIRST OF ALL PUTS THEMSELVES IN THE DELTA QUADRA THEN FOR WHATEVER REASON MOVES TO BETA; AT LEAST WHEN I STARTED I PUT MYSELF IN THE RIGHT QUADRA UNLIKE YOURSELF, SO PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING YOU SAY AT THIS POINT CAN'T BE CREDIBLE ANYWAYS. AND YOU TALK ABOUT HAVING A CONVERSATION LIKE ADULTS WHEN YOU CLEARLY ARE TYPING PEOPLE BY THE SAME METHOD I HAVE, I DON'T SEE HOW YOU EXPLAINED YOURSELF ANY BETTER AS FAR AS WHEREIS IN HIS EGO BETTER THAN I DID, YOU SAID HE DOESN'T COME ACROSS AS A TYPICAL ENFJ BLAH BLAH BLAH. I THINK THE ONLY PEOPLE I WOULD LISTEN TO ARE CRAZEDRAT, AZEROFFS, AND A FEW OTHERS.
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
i'm w the infp crowd here. christopher walken's smile is so genuine and bright it lights up my whole heart. it's like the perfect kind of Fe. that interview with conan was priceless...thanks to xkj220 for posting it. conan's criticism of his hair was kind of an Si slap, so i could see infp kinda feeling the sting on that one. he recovers pretty well, though, and gets the last word in about the hair. i think i'm in love
i loved what he said about big hair little hair, too. it's so true...i've thought the same thing myself. but he kind of sets conan up the way he says it, he makes conan think he's got a really crackpot theory about genetics....conan gets sucked in, not deciphering the crypticism, then bam, walken says what he really means, and it comes off as just so endearing. even though his hair did look totally weird!!!!! lol infp for sure.
i don't see how you can type an actor by watching the roles he plays. not unless it's jack nicholson, who always plays himself. they're playing a role not being themselves. so i go more by interviews. the first interview that Morcheeba picked, i could kind of see why she would pick up on extraversion. the whole idea of thinking out loud is fundamentally an extravert way to do think and communicate. on the other hand, with introverts, i usually get the impression that they have this bubble of thoughts within them but they verbalize only fine streams of air. with extraverts, they get a thought and it comes out and expands in the air like a bubble. so he did seem more like an extravert in that interview. but then again, he communicates kind of crytically, classic Ni leading. so perhaps on that day he was just extremely comfortable. i found that i could totally understand what he was saying about language, too. i found myself thinking whoa he's a lot like my guy.
i agree that conan o'brien is an enfp, kind of a classic one at that. so, if we suppose that walken is infp and conan is enfp then they are contraries, which explains a lot.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
But I read somewhere that the main problem contraries have is that they misunderstand each other. They seem to understand each other pretty well, in fact, they seem similar in many ways (even look similar -- face structures). LII's are also accused of being cryptic many times (all N types can be accused of this in general, especially by S types). He combines better with the interviewer on this interview:
(which is completely worth it to watch in full, btw), who's a clear EJ, than with Conan who is EP. Maybe he is IJ temperament. IJ's find EP's intrusive and annoying, and IP's find EJ's bossy. Also, he doesn't really become his characters in the way a beta NF would (he expands on this in the interview), he imposes his personality on the characters. Big difference.
An EIE-Ni that could be used for comparisons is David Bowie. You can still see Fe there. In Walken's case there's no Fe whatsoever.
And INFp's, being Fe creative types, tend to shower you in Fe. The Ni subtype less so, but the Ni subtype has this distinctive "sluggish" manner of speaking, that I don't identify in Walken.
Your post reads like a failed TOEFL essay.
For the record, you were incorrect in your 'history of JuJu's Socionics progression'--but fuck yeah for trying! Nothin' but yeah! Actual progression: 1. beta (ENFj) 2004-2006 --> 2. delta (ENFp) 2007-2008 ---> 3. beta (INFp/ENFj) 2008-present
xkj220: nice finds.
inside the actor's studio is awesome for getting actors to talk in a meaningful way about their craft. the interviewer (not sure of his name) is excellent, and to my mind, an introvert, either LII or LSI. he's very well prepared (always is) and draws out walken, let's him have some space to explain himself. i do agree that walken is much much more comfortable here than with conan.
with conan, it's almost like a gauntlet he has to get through....but those kind of talk shows always are. the hosts are always trying to fuck with her guest. 'cept for johnny carson. and the interaction with conan is not really a flow, more like a game, that almost comes to a draw at the end, but walken ends up the winner.
funny with bowie...i almost fell asleep. boring. and i love the dude's music, too. *shrugs*
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Good point. It is very hard to maintain that they are the same type on the basis of that comparison. Right now I'm just dumbfounded by the suggestion that Walken might be an Extrovert.An EIE-Ni that could be used for comparisons is David Bowie.
Certainly not the worst suggestion. I think this role of his is very likely INTj (extremely calm and controlled, energy conserving, speaking in brief statements that say exactly as much as needs to be said and nothing more*), for example, and he plays it very convincingly:My opinion is that Walken is an LII.
Alternatively, the traits I see in him could be explained as INTx characteristics, which makes INTp an option. Briefness isn't always an INTp's style, though. They tend to ramble.
* this is more or less what I believe Negative/Result/Static to look like (INTj, ENFp, ISFj, ESTp)
Last edited by krieger; 03-20-2010 at 02:26 AM.
Herman van Veen, a Dutch artist that resembles him facially. I think van Veen is INTp (his sense of taste is interesting to me, but foreign):
Speaking English:
after watching a couple of his impersonations the whole "beautiful, like a moon at a cemetery, dark, tragic pose of life" part of EIE descriptions came to mind ...
I'd type him as EIE-Ni, updated: enneagram - 3w4, contra-flow, likely so/sp the sp subtype
Last edited by silke; 11-22-2018 at 08:00 PM.
I tentatively type Buster Keaton as an IEI even though he was also known for being very deadpan...I think Walken is of the same mould (i.e. a Beta NF type)...I guess EIE makes marginally more sense for him.
He's so clearly an Fe-ego type to me. EIE-Ni fits him well. Fe types aren't always bursting at the seams.
EIE-Ni still works... he's one of the more archetypal examples, and also good for illustrating how p-sub betas differ from standard definitions of the quadra.
4w3-5w6-8w7
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