How do you differentiate your mirage from your dual?

[Attis]

I recently began interacting with a self-identified ENFp, and a couple of self-identified ESFps. With the ENFp, our interactions were very smooth, we felt strong mutual attraction from the get-go, and we seemed to be progressing through what is described as "the stages of duality". With the ESFps, the conversations took longer to get going, weren't as enjoyable, and they didn't seem that interested in me. They were very pleasant conversations, but I didn't "sense an inevitable necessity to meet again after my first contact" or that "they attached to something within me" or that "if I do something, my thoughts are about them" or "an intuitive feeling of safety" or "an internal joy that fills up the soul" like I did with the ENFp. I understand that there are things outside of standard intertype which can significantly affect relations, such as subtype, enneagram, attachment style, and mental health. I also understand that they could possibly be mistyped, or that I could be completely misunderstanding intertype. Regardless, these interactions serve as more fuel for my uncertainty between SLI and ILI.

How do you differentiate mirage and duality? What's the most effective method of determining if someone is your mirage or your dual?

[Jeremy8419]

Ah, that's a good one, and easy to differentiate. The most apparent factor is the difference between Leading and Role.

Social Facade vs Social Purpose = Role vs Leading

People will move from being what they seem like on the surface when dealing with people in public towards what they are actually like when the pressures of the social sphere subside.

An IEE will appear to be SEE, someone confident, forceful will, vain when you view them interacting from a distance, but once they feel safe and secure will transition into being novel, endless possibilities, and looking for the best in everyone. An SEE will appear novel, open, silly/playful when you view them from a distance, but once they feel safe and secure will transition into being strong, indomitable, and materialistic.

So ask, do they go from Ne to Se as you "get closer?" Or do they go from Se to Ne?

[Adam Strange]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Mirage

[GuavaDrunk]

Note that intertype dynamics are said to emerge in the long run.

[Attis]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Mirage

I've read that. Some of it applies to my interaction with the ENFp, some of it doesn't.

"In closer contact, partners find they can be of practical assistance to each other in a variety of ways, even if they are not driven to become close emotionally." This doesn't seem to apply, as we are driven to become close emotionally.

"Partners' worldviews, central values, and general approaches are similar in that they focus on similar kinds of things, but they are hardly compatible in practice. Where one sees opportunities that must be developed immediately, the other wants to wait and do nothing for the time being. Then, the tables turn and the other person suddenly feels it is time to do something, while the other believes that there is nothing to be done at the moment.artners' worldviews, central values, and general approaches are similar in that they focus on similar kinds of things, but they are hardly compatible in practice. Where one sees opportunities that must be developed immediately, the other wants to wait and do nothing for the time being. Then, the tables turn and the other person suddenly feels it is time to do something, while the other believes that there is nothing to be done at the moment." This does seem to apply. This has happened several times.

"The comfort levels in these relationships are relatively good, as long as partners are attentive to each other and offer mutual sympathy. Ignoring the views and interests of your mirage partner leads to conflicts over small things, but fortunately these are quickly forgotten. Communication is relaxing and distracting in nature. Disputes are rare and usually end with a compromise. Partners try to give each other moral support and assistance, but their lack in understanding the motives, goals and actions of one another has an inhibiting effect on their ability to cooperate and often makes joint achievement impossible. It is very difficult to choose a mode of action that would be suitable for both. Relations can become rather warm when the partners spend time on leisure or discuss extraneous topics together. Differences in opinion and incapacity to offer each other mutual aid is offset by the overall pleasant emotional tone of these relations, since the partner doesn't seem to be so distant from your ideal." This does seem to apply very well.

The descriptions seem to apply more often than not.

[Attis]

Ah, that's a good one, and easy to differentiate. The most apparent factor is the difference between Leading and Role.

Social Facade vs Social Purpose = Role vs Leading

People will move from being what they seem like on the surface when dealing with people in public towards what they are actually like when the pressures of the social sphere subside.

An IEE will appear to be SEE, someone confident, forceful will, vain when you view them interacting from a distance, but once they feel safe and secure will transition into being novel, endless possibilities, and looking for the best in everyone. An SEE will appear novel, open, silly/playful when you view them from a distance, but once they feel safe and secure will transition into being strong, indomitable, and materialistic.

So ask, do they go from Ne to Se as you "get closer?" Or do they go from Se to Ne?

The self-identified ENFp appeared to transition from what you describe as Se to Ne, and the self-identified ESFps from what you describe as Ne to Se.

The main problem is I don't know for sure whether I'm ILI or SLI. How does a mirage relationship feel vs a dual relationship? How do they differ in development?

[Jeremy8419]

The self-identified ENFp appeared to transition from what you describe as Se to Ne, and the self-identified ESFps from what you describe as Ne to Se.

The main problem is I don't know for sure whether I'm ILI or SLI. How does a mirage relationship feel vs a dual relationship? How do they differ in development?

Well, technically speaking, you could be neither. For instance, your avatar is Si to Fe, which, more than likely, is an unconscious transmission of either your product (Ego) or what you want in return (Super-Id).

For myself, ESE females go from seeming about work, to being super emotive in the bedroom. LSE goes from being moderately emotive, to being semi-robotic in the bedroom (as in blank faces, not as in repetitive and sucky). The ESE ends up with us hanging out all day having fun and eating, and me feeling bad in the long run for being so lazy. Although, really, it's still a pretty good ITR imo. Both know how to stay pretty and take a D.

[Attis]

Well, technically speaking, you could be neither. For instance, your avatar is Si to Fe, which, more than likely, is an unconscious transmission of either your product (Ego) or what you want in return (Super-Id).

For myself, ESE females go from seeming about work, to being super emotive in the bedroom. LSE goes from being moderately emotive, to being semi-robotic in the bedroom (as in blank faces, not as in repetitive and sucky). The ESE ends up with us hanging out all day having fun and eating, and me feeling bad in the long run for being so lazy. Although, really, it's still a pretty good ITR imo. Both know how to stay pretty and take a D.

I understand how my avatar is Si, but how is it Fe?

[Jeremy8419]

I understand how my avatar is Si, but how is it Fe?

It's not just Si, but Si+. The purpose of the food is clearly festivities and to increase emotions of people eating.

[Attis]

It's not just Si, but Si+. The purpose of the food is clearly festivities and to increase emotions of people eating.

I see. I came up with the name "Food" on a whim and selected a random image from Google to go along with it, but you could be correct in that it's unconscious.

Do you consider the descriptions from wikisocion and sociotype.com to be valid? I've never related to a description of Fe in the ego or super-id, and I highly relate to most descriptions of Fe vulnerable. That's a large part of why I consider myself to most likely be XLI.

[Jeremy8419]

I see. I came up with the name "Food" on a whim and selected a random image from Google to go along with it, but you could be correct in that it's unconscious.

Do you consider the descriptions from wikisocion and sociotype.com to be valid? I've never related to a description of Fe in the ego or super-id, and I highly relate to most descriptions of Fe vulnerable. That's a large part of why I consider myself to most likely be XLI.

People jack with wikisocion a lot. Usually kids. Sociotype isn't a reputable source.

Why don't you try the gender-specific articles by beskoza on here?

[Attis]

People jack with wikisocion a lot. Usually kids. Sociotype isn't a reputable source.

Why don't you try the gender-specific articles by beskoza on here?

I read the SEI, ESE, LII, SLI, and ILI male articles. I have almost nothing in common with the SEI and ESE descriptions. I relate to about half of the SLI description. The LII description fits me pretty well. I relate most to the ILI description.

[Jeremy8419]

I read the SEI, ESE, LII, SLI, and ILI male articles. I have almost nothing in common with the SEI and ESE descriptions. I relate to about half of the SLI description. The LII description fits me pretty well. I relate most to the ILI description.

Well, then there you go. Lol.

Now, go forth! And find SEE female!

[Muddy]

The biggest and most noticeable difference between mirage and duality IMO is the feeling of superficiality you get in mirage they you don't get in duality. Your mirage is usually someone whom you find it easy to get acquainted with as there is a feeling of mutual respect. With mirage however you get the feeling that it is best to keep things shallow because you can both sense there is a difference between what the two of you would choose to do if given the choice. Duality is the opposite from mirage in that you feel a desire to delve deeper into the activities of your dual rather then avoiding them. The help you get from mirage also feels conditional, whereas your dual seems like someone who would fight tooth and nail for you.

[Sol]

I'm offering you to identify your type
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450
then you'll get more understanding of what you want with types examples.

Note that intertype dynamics are said to emerge in the long run.

Intertype related impressions appear during 1st minutes of communication, but in less degree. You may don't notice IR effects if types were identified wrongly.

[GuavaDrunk]

I'm offering you to identify your type
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450
then you'll get more understanding of what you want with types examples.

Intertype related impressions appear during 1st minutes of communication, but in less degree. You may don't notice IR effects if types were identified wrongly.

"Become more obvious" in the long run then - in the short run there's a higher probability of your (self-)perception (wrong self-typing for eg) prevailing.

[Olimpia]

I find it misguided to type people based on intertype interactions.

The real question should be, how do you tell a certain type from another – in your case, ENFp from ESFp.
You should find out whether they are Ne or Se lead, whether Delta or Gamma, etc.

I find if you cannot type people correctly, the entire intertype relation theory falls to the way-side anyhow.
There should be a rule that says "You shall not type people's types based on your understanding of intertype theory."

That's just me, but I always start with typing people, and then look at the intertype relation more closely. Not the other way round. I don't type people as my Semi-Dual or Mirage, but as ESFp or ENTp. Because subjective feelings and impressions of an interaction going well (or not) can misguide you when trying to type someone.

For instance, I call it the "Duality fallacy" when certain people type someone as their Dual just because they get along well or have a huge crush on them. I have had those interactions with people who were not my Dual before. Obviously, some other dynamics are at play here, too. It is not like only Duality feels (always) nice. There are Duals/Semi-Duals/Mirage partners you will get along with better or worse for reasons beyond Socionics.

[Contra]

"Does this person activate me?"

[HotSauce]

Does she ask you a million questions, asking you to go deeper into the subject you are talking about? Then she's a SEE. I think ENFPs tend to build and connect on topics in conversation, while ESFPs tend to go the question/answer route.

So, lets say you go full on INTP and start talking about left handed pitchers vs. right handed pitchers in baseball and how they are used for left or right handed hitters (I use this example because I learned about it last night from my INTP BF, lol)

I think an ENFP might go the route of "You know what other sport has left and right handed hitters? Boxing! We should go boxing!" (I have an ENFP daughter and an ENFP poster-child sister)

While an ESFP would want to know "So the left handed hitter guy works best with a right handed pitcher guy? Why?" ESFPs want to KNOW stuff.

[Beautiful sky]

SEE don't know who they are interested in. They just want someone with a pretty face?

[Emmym]

Mirage acts stupid, dual acts mean. The end, from an EII's perspective.

[Beautiful sky]

Mirage acts stupid, dual acts mean. The end, from an EII's perspective.

Lol

Identical and mirrors provide support and activities help you get out and do things

[Emmym]

Lol

Identical and mirrors provide support and activities help you get out and do things

That's semi-true. Usually the people who get me out to do stuff the most are IEEs. LSEs (and Te-base types in general) are too popular and identicals are just as hermit-y as I am, usually more so.

[Beautiful sky]

That's semi-true. Usually the people who get me out to do stuff the most are IEEs. LSEs (and Te-base types in general) are too popular and identicals are just as hermit-y as I am, usually more so.

Aww my SLI ex and I went to the car shows every year. We also went camping, day trips, Vegas, New England, Orlando. We did a lot of stuff

[Emmym]

Aww my SLI ex and I went to the car shows every year. We also went camping, day trips, Vegas, New England, Orlando. We did a lot of stuff

That sounds awesome. I always just end up watching TV and having sex with SLIs, usually in that order.

[Rebelondeck]

Food,

Duals only have goals and or direction in common; they don't usually have many similarities in approach, interest or perspective. Commonality is a good indication of something other than dual. One needs to tune for minimum commonality, but also minimum discomfort and perceived threat. There seems to be much more sparring with ones mirage, which can be intriguing at first. It's hard to choose what one needs (dual) over what one wants (commonality); for example, one needs to lose weight but wants dessert......

a.k.a. I/O

[Beautiful sky]

Food,

Duals only have goals and or direction in common; they don't usually have many similarities in approach, interest or perspective. Commonality is a good indication of something other than dual. One needs to tune for minimum commonality, but also minimum discomfort and perceived threat. There seems to be much more sparring with ones mirage, which can be intriguing at first. It's hard to choose what one needs (dual) over what one wants (commonality); for example, one needs to lose weight but wants dessert......

a.k.a. I/O

I agree with a lot of this. I find that SEE and LSE relationships are warm funny and because they are both extrovert have a lot to talk about where I do do a lot of things but I don't voice them out. If you look for minimalist you will be more likely to spot a dual. A lot of other relationship types are much more interesting at surface level. But duality is much more supportive and comfortable at very close psychological association. This means it's hard to tell other types what to do as an LSE and to direct their proper activities while EII is obedient and will listen. That kind of interaction is not expected at first encounter or until people live together.

[The Reality Denialist]

When they get turned on your rare use of role function and you don't really get it.

It is actually very visible. While ISFp appreciates my weird problem solving an INFp will look at it from perspective of conquering it.

[Beautiful sky]

My duals don't express high pitched emotions in such a way as to get noticed in public. ESE don't care about who hears them when they get vocal about their emotions.

[Olimpia]

An IEE will appear to be SEE, someone confident, forceful will, vain when you view them interacting from a distance, but once they feel safe and secure will transition into being novel, endless possibilities, and looking for the best in everyone.

(...)

So ask, do they go from Ne to Se as you "get closer?" Or do they go from Se to Ne?

That explains why I used to be somewhat awe-struck by this one IEE guy at first (sight), but over time I realized we were actually not a good fit...

[lemontrees]

I never felt that mirage is superficial.

for casual purposes it can be better than duality due to the based-function commonalities. like my SLE friend (who knows socionics) and I will affectionately whine about how lost-in-the-cloud or ridiculous so and so (intuitives) are being, and we get it, we're there for each other lol. compared to dual, our interactions tend to follow much more of the same script- which can be both good and bad.

[ouronis]

Move closer to it.

[niffer]

IEE is infantile and Si seeking. They have more of a "psychic fortune teller" vibe too. They dress funny. SEE is like a vivacious or jock-like down to earth person who likes intellectual topics. They never dress funny.

[rougerogue]

SEE don't know who they are interested in. They just want someone with a pretty face?

You are bias. Your past should not taint your view of all SEE. Maritsa, let me help you move on.

[Beautiful sky]

You are bias. Your past should not taint your view of all SEE. Maritsa, let me help you move on.

Isn't everyone.

[rougerogue]

Isn't everyone.

What I am trying to say is: an SEE is going to come into your life and you will miss out on a great friendship if you judge that person before you know him or her. Also, I am excited about my trophy. I hope this does't change it.

[Contra]

SEE don't know who they are interested in.

This part might be somewhat true. More than than that I don't think they probably know how to prioritize qualities in a person.

[darya]

This part might be somewhat true. More than than that I don't think they probably know how to prioritize qualities in a person.

I'm trying to be offended on behalf of my SEE bf, but unfortunately Maritsa's statement has a lot of truth to it. SEE's seem to like a lot of people for often hard to understand reasons - it's like they don't understand it themselves and are unable to articulate it well, so it ends up sounding shallow. That said, I've had a few SEE guys become *really* obssesed with me in my life, not just as a passing crush as it's usually the case (like they told me over a period of 5 years I was still their no. 1 choice if I wanted to date them and they knew like a million people), so I guess there is a certain energy in people they are drawn to above others - let's call it Ni magic : )

[bolong]

I recently began interacting with a self-identified ENFp, and a couple of self-identified ESFps. With the ENFp, our interactions were very smooth, we felt strong mutual attraction from the get-go, and we seemed to be progressing through what is described as "the stages of duality". With the ESFps, the conversations took longer to get going, weren't as enjoyable, and they didn't seem that interested in me. They were very pleasant conversations, but I didn't "sense an inevitable necessity to meet again after my first contact" or that "they attached to something within me" or that "if I do something, my thoughts are about them" or "an intuitive feeling of safety" or "an internal joy that fills up the soul" like I did with the ENFp. I understand that there are things outside of standard intertype which can significantly affect relations, such as subtype, enneagram, attachment style, and mental health. I also understand that they could possibly be mistyped, or that I could be completely misunderstanding intertype. Regardless, these interactions serve as more fuel for my uncertainty between SLI and ILI.

How do you differentiate mirage and duality? What's the most effective method of determining if someone is your mirage or your dual?

If you are ILI, do you not feel a clash of intuition with the ENFp?? It is definitely more difficult to "start things" with your dual. Esp for Ni ego and Se ego, you may not have ANYTHING to talk about unless you are both part of a larger activity/group, these types in particular need to feel bonded through some sort of movement, achieving a goal, it doesn't have to be serious but if that tone is set then you'll start to appreciate each other.

But yeah for an intuitive type you can tell your mirage from your dual because of the clash of intuition you will inevitably have with the mirage. Creative functions will correspond nicely with both though

[Attis]

clash of intuition

Can you describe this?