The earth is round

[Eliza Thomason]

A very close fried of mine knows Adam Lanza's father because he works with his wife. The hoax theory has been debunked many times. It's so disgusting to victimize these parents and family members even more, seriously.

I absolutely disagree the hoax theory has been debunked. Its the SH crisis that is debunked many, many times over and in so many ways. I can understand feeling a personal connection to your close friend, who works with the wife of Lanza... but if I were in your shoes I would see it plausible that the Lanza wife my friend works with has extremely compelling reasons not to tell her coworkers that she and her husband were involved in a major fraud. As to victimizing the families - I instead feel these families partook in a farce to victimize us. Because people everywhere watched the news feeling grief for those families and fear for what our world is coming to.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/florida-professor-taunts-sandy-hook-parents-and-accuses-them-of-faking-kids-massacre-for-money/[/URL]

Interesting story. But I am always wary of a story that tells me what I should think of things (poor victimized family! Crazy professor!); I like to draw my own conclusions. I think being a unsuspecting pawn of an emotional manipulator so many years, once my eyes were open and the truth was clear, has made me highly aware of emotional manipulations. But I do think the professor is being quite unwise. Its just not always wise to tell the truth, everywhere. One does not have to lie, but it is not necessary or wise to be transparent about everything. Though in this case he is on a crusade. And unwise one, IMO.

Did you see the "Real grief vs. Sandy Hook grief"[8 min.14 sec.] video? I thought you would see that HUGE contrast between REAL grief and Sandy Hook "grief". Something is seriously up with that. Its not an evidence that people who have trouble reading faces or emotions would relate to, but we women tend to be good at that. In fact I am curious; I will show it to my husband and see if he sees the difference. To me its OBVIOUS. The first group pulls my heart and fills it with sadness for those people. The second group - its just STRANGE. The actual grief is lacking. (Like the tears.) Instead its composed happiness vs. the breakdown of real grief. And this is how they are coached to act, so, it makes me wonder what kind of brainwashing motive they had. That we (the viewers) are supposed to feel "sweet happiness" immediately at the tragic death of our children?? No. Its sick, actually.

You must not have seen any of those videos I posted. Not that above, or the one of the "kids are alive and well"[13 min.], or the one of the "crisis actor appearing in 4 crisises"[4 min.40 sec.] . But that's okay. If you feel you are being more loyal to your good friend who works with the wife of Lanza by remaining ignorant of the claims made by those who say it was a hoax, I respect that.

[Kim]

I absolutely disagree the hoax theory has been debunked. Its the SH crisis that is debunked many, many times over and in so many ways. I can understand feeling a personal connection to your close friend, who works with the wife of Lanza... but if I were in your shoes I would see it plausible that the Lanza wife my friend works with has extremely compelling reasons not to tell her coworkers that she and her husband were involved in a major fraud. As to victimizing the families - I instead feel these families partook in a farce to victimize us. Because people everywhere watched the news feeling grief for those families and fear for what our world is coming to.


Interesting story. But I am always wary of a story that tells me what I should think of things (poor victimized family! Crazy professor!); I like to draw my own conclusions. I think being a unsuspecting pawn of an emotional manipulator so many years, once my eyes were open and the truth was clear, has made me highly aware of emotional manipulations. But I do think the professor is being quite unwise. Its just not always wise to tell the truth, everywhere. One does not have to lie, but it is not necessary or wise to be transparent about everything. Though in this case he is on a crusade. And unwise one, IMO.

Did you see the "Real grief vs. Sandy Hook grief"[8 min.14 sec.] video? I thought you would see that HUGE contrast between REAL grief and Sandy Hook "grief". Something is seriously up with that. Its not an evidence that people who have trouble reading faces or emotions would relate to, but we women tend to be good at that. In fact I am curious; I will show it to my husband and see if he sees the difference. To me its OBVIOUS. The first group pulls my heart and fills it with sadness for those people. The second group - its just STRANGE. The actual grief is lacking. (Like the tears.) Instead its composed happiness vs. the breakdown of real grief. And this is how they are coached to act, so, it makes me wonder what kind of brainwashing motive they had. That we (the viewers) are supposed to feel "sweet happiness" immediately at the tragic death of our children?? No. Its sick, actually.

You must not have seen any of those videos I posted. Not that above, or the one of the "kids are alive and well"[13 min.], or the one of the "crisis actor appearing in 4 crisises"[4 min.40 sec.] . But that's okay. If you feel you are being more loyal to your good friend who works with the wife of Lanza by remaining ignorant of the claims made by those who say it was a hoax, I respect that.

All the hoax evidence is doctored and manipulated. This is not about loyalty to my friend, it's about my friend having seen the grief first-hand (unlike you).

To claim you know the truth is to nurture your vanity on the graves of dead children. They are dead. They were murdered. To claim otherwise based on shoddy and debunked evidence is to disrespect their legacy and the grief of their loved ones. YOU were victimized?? Seriously, get a grip and have some decency. That's all I will say about this.

Overall, I find your repeated claims to "know the truth" to be off-putting and ridiculous. You can believe, but you can't know.

[Eliza Thomason]

I watched the first one, for argument's sake:

I still don't see how this proves the earth is flat, and it doesn't really do anything to prove that the earth isn't round. So they do an experiment of a "vacuum" on earth being air-tight and PULLING on an object stronger than gravity pulls down. Ok. Then they compare that to the definition of "vacuum" for space to say that 'if space were a vacuum, then it MUST pull the Earth's atmosphere toward it!' and thus reach the conclusion that space must NOT be a vacuum, and that we have been lied to. Alright. Well - the 'vacuum' of space is much different than the air-tight 'vacuum' experiments they did. Some questions: what separates space from the Earth's atmosphere? At some point, doesn't Earth's atmosphere get thinner and thinner as you get farther and farther away from Earth? Why do spaceships get really hot when they come back to Earth from space? You see where I'm going with that. I personally can lift up an object, say a chair for example, and preach that because I'm stronger than gravity, that the Earth must be flat - but it doesn't really make sense. It doesn't really take into consideration gravity as considered across the entire Earth, the gravity affecting Earth's atmosphere, and doesn't definitively PROVE anything about space, either.

I watched the second video, hoping for something better:

My notes include: Centripetal motion acts, too. The Earth is so massive and doesn't spin that fast to create real centrifugal force on the objects at the surface, such as people. And density and gravity can BOTH exist. I don't see one disproving the other, so the entire logical premise of the question and the video of choosing one or the other as having any merit seems utterly inapplicable. To answer the question he posed at 1:17: Mass of balloons isn't very much at all compared to the mass of the Earth and the DENSITY of the surrounding air - density has been shown to have a greater effect than gravity alone:

(but that doesn't disprove gravity, like he's stretching it to. In fact - balloons rising because the Earth is pulling the denser air below them faster than the less dense balloon incorporates gravity as a basic aspect of density, in fundamental science. If you don't believe in gravity, then you really believe there is NOTHING ELSE in the universe 'below' the Earth? That the Earth is more dense than the sun & moon? And how do you explain the sun & moon having vastly fluctuating 'densities' each day for their circling around the earth? ((and don't get me started on the silly sun/moon rotating around the earth videos - why isn't the sun then observed by every part of the earth at all times - what stops the sun's rays? Also - if the Earth is SO DENSE and the BOTTOM of everything, why isn't this smaller sun & moon then PULLED INTO THE EARTH?)) Then - if the Earth is flat - and the BOTTOM of the universe - why is there space between us and other planets? How is there so much space 'above' us but then nothing 'below' us?). ((why do ships sink when sailing 'into the horizon'?))

Then --- Wtf. Then he goes on lunatic rant about birthdate and death of one person and asking about the bones on a black shield --- as some sort of proof the earth is flat? They are NOT CORRELATED by any means. This makes me lose faith in humanity. Then - there wasn't even a conclusion to the video. I was expecting some stupid deduction like the first video, but then this video doesn't even have a definitive end. He just goes on a rant then trying to destroy the credibility of past scientists without offering any alternatives to their theories or experiments but just advises to 'ask questions'.

These are the best videos you could come up with, Eliza? I will not entertain a rebuttal. This just makes me facepalm irl and makes me incredibly sad for the human race.

The best I can do. Hmm, well it took me well more than the 4 minutes of your watching for me to look those up for you. So, I get it - that was a waste of time looking that up for you when I was ready for bed....

You asked for the 5 minute version. I just didn't think that I could choose a 5 minute one without at least skimming a few. And I did only skim them - but I still say they look fine to me.

As I said, this is not a topic I have pursued. And I did not watch the whole of those 2 minute videos that you watched. I looked at the beginning and the middle and the end maybe, and I skipped though watching parts of the 15 minute video. So my attention to this topic, currently, is very brief - like yours.

My conclusion from my brief attention to the matter is that I can concede to the possibility of a real point -- even though my curiosity at this point is not peaked enough to watch any of the much, much longer videos or even video series on the topic of why flat earth theorists denounce gravity.

However, Einstein and Newton, to us, are the superior-mind exalted heroes of our times. Like NO ONE else is near as smart as them, and we NEED their far superior minds - minds that no one can understand - to explain the world to us, and teach us basic truths. Or, maybe, they are the ones chosen, that we are supposed to see that way. And to question them is just like an affront to humanity.

But I myself will not be making a judgment on the human race by my very brief attention to the topic.

Question everything...

"EINSTEIN is a beggar dressed in purple clothes and made king using dazzling mathematics that obscure truth"...

"The theory, wraps all these errors and fallacies and clothes them in magnificent mathematical garb which fascinates, dazzles and makes people blind to the underlying errors. The theory is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king. Its exponents are very brilliant men, but they are metaphysicists rather than scientists. Not a single one of the relativity propositions has been proved."

"Relativity is a beggar wrapped in purple whom ignorant people take for a King."

Wow. I am REALLY liking this Tesla guy. I do not recall learning about him in school. he was definitely side-lined to Einstein, Newton, and Edison. In fact when my son came home from high school with stuff on Tesla I said, "Who is that?" I don't know if he is being promoted now or not or if my son had an unusual teacher. Anyway, he is interesting and those quotes above came from this page, which is easily readable, large print, visuals, skims fast....

[Capitalist Pig]

I like to draw my own conclusions.

Roughly translated as "I don't know how to differentiate good reasoning from bad reasoning, so I just believe whatever people tell me about things I don't even begin to understand."

[Eliza Thomason]

All the hoax evidence is doctored and manipulated. This is not about loyalty to my friend, it's about my friend having seen the grief first-hand (unlike you)..

Actually millions have observed the "grief" because it was extremely well documented. I don't know, are you saying they the interviewers and cameramen who observed it "first" hand have more inside knowledge than we who saw the film they made?? I'm not seeing that. Seems illogical.

To claim you know the truth is to nurture your vanity on the graves of dead children. They are dead. They were murdered. To claim otherwise based on shoddy and debunked evidence is to disrespect their legacy and the grief of their loved ones.

YOU were victimized??

You clearly misread my post.

Seriously, get a grip and have some decency. That's all I will say about this..

Well you are seriously judging me here, but you have misjudged.

Overall, I find your repeated claims to "know the truth" to be off-putting and ridiculous. You can believe, but you can't know.

You are seriously misreading me. There are no repeated claims from me that I "know the truth". This is not what I say. I am very willing to say of a thing, "I believe this is the truth". I have claimed here in this thread that my motive is to know the truth. That's different. See the difference. So, you are reading your own thought into my words, not reading what I am actually saying.

P.S. I love your quote. And I can tell you about a couple of GREAT places to go in the Adirondacks.

[Eliza Thomason]

"Too bad, Sir Isaac, they dimmed your renown
And turned your great science upside down.
Now a long haired crank, Einstein by name,
Puts on your high teaching all the blame."


-Tesla

reference

[Kim]

Actually millions have observed the "grief" because it was extremely well documented. I don't know, are you saying they the interviewers and cameramen who observed it "first" hand have more inside knowledge than we who saw the film they made?? I'm not seeing that. Seems illogical.


You clearly misread my post.
Well you are seriously judging me here, but you have misjudged.

You are seriously misreading me. There are no repeated claims from me that I "know the truth". This is not what I say. I am very willing to say of a thing, "I believe this is the truth". I have claimed here in this thread that my motive is to know the truth. That's different. See the difference. So, you are reading your own thought into my words, not reading what I am actually saying.

P.S. I love your quote. And I can tell you about a couple of GREAT places to go in the Adirondacks.

Consider for one moment that you are wrong and these children were murdered. Then think about what these conspiracy theories do to their loved ones. Just for a moment. Is that pain really worth your vain claim to knowing what happened?

And spare me the manipulative Fe.

[Eliza Thomason]

Consider for one moment that you are wrong and these children were murdered. Then think about what these conspiracy theories do to their loved ones. Just for a moment. Is that pain really worth your vain claim to knowing what happened?

And spare me the manipulative Fe.

I am confused on that because I was thinking that was Fe that you were doing but, gee, I don't know. I get where they are coming from. If by some outrageous odds those children really did die at Sandy Hook and those families really did lose children - that would be terrible. But fortunately the families have all moved on, out of their Sandy Hook houses where they moved just before the big event; some are into other crisis acting gigs, as we have seen, and others are living well on the what they have reaped from the situation. Three of the victim families just happened to have won the Connecticut state lottery twice (that would make me unhappy if I played the lottery - what are the odds of that?) and then there is the free homes to settle into... I think they are too busy to log into 16types.info and see that some anonymous un-influential person does not believe their story. So besides the practically impossible chance the hoax was true, if it were, its unlikely they will ever hear of my little opinion and be hurt by it. Also I am not going to complain to the government that they wasted my money because I feel pretty sure that's just business as usual, and they also really don't care what I think.

[Eliza Thomason]

To clarify, to me, I see Fe as people telling me what I am supposed to feel about a thing. I could be wrong, but that is how I have been seeing it. And that is manipulative.

[Beautiful sky]

@Starfall @Kim please delete my quote in post 641. Thank you
@mu4

[SongOfSapphire]

@Starfall @Kim please delete my quote in post 642. Thank you

I would prefer you didn't, @Starfall @Kim

Maritsa emailed me asking me to delete my post altogether, which I declined to do. I realize you guys have a responsibility to do whatever you think is best, but her reason of "it compromises @Eliza Thomason's personal security" is ridiculous, manipulative, and stupid. In that quote all she does is describe ET's fit as IEE; no personal info of any kind is mentioned, and since @Maritsa was the one to initiate that particular derail, I would prefer her words stay, as someone mentioned my response to her as if it came out of nowhere (which it looks like it did, w Maritsa's post is gone).

[Beautiful sky]

Sorry, I mean 641

[Beautiful sky]

I would prefer you didn't, @Starfall @Kim

Maritsa emailed me asking me to delete my post altogether, which I declined to do. I realize you guys have a responsibility to do whatever you think is best, but her reason of "it compromises @Eliza Thomason's personal security" is ridiculous, manipulative, and stupid. In that quote all she does is describe ET's fit as IEE; no personal info of any kind is mentioned, and since @Maritsa was the one to initiate that particular derail, I would prefer her words stay, as someone mentioned my response to her as if it came out of nowhere (which it looks like it did, w Maritsa's post is gone).

I did ask you to delete it and I want MY portion of it gone.

[SongOfSapphire]

I did ask you to delete it and I want MY portion of it gone.

Why? The reason you gave in your PM doesn't make sense, and for some reason you've decided to make this public. So please answer the question I asked in my PM response: why?

[Beautiful sky]

Why? The reason you gave in your PM doesn't make sense, and for some reason you've decided to make this public. So please answer the question I asked in my PM response: why?

It doesn't matter because when people ask you nicely to not quote their post it should be respected. You obviously lack the courtesy and have have lost my trust in you.

[SongOfSapphire]

It doesn't matter because when people ask you nicely to not quote their post it should be respected.

It does matter.

I gave my reason for not wanting to delete my post (as you requested in PM) or your portion (as you demanded in the thread). I have a valid reason, which trumps the bogus one you gave, so I'm not inclined to do what you demand. If a mod deletes it then I'll live w that, but I won't be making changes.

You obviously lack the courtesy and have have lost my trust in you.

Okay

[Beautiful sky]

That's fine.

I gave my reason for not wanting to delete my post (as you requested in PM) or your portion (as you demanded in the thread). I have a valid reason, which trumps the bogus one you gave, so I'm not inclined to do what you demand. If a mod deletes it then I'll live w that, but I won't be making changes.

And what do you mean to accomplish by putting up such an aggressive front and bringing what I've discussed with you into public?

[SongOfSapphire]

And what do you mean to accomplish by putting up such an aggressive front and bringing what I've discussed with you into public?

1. Declining to do what you want is not being aggressive. 2. You made this public, not I.

I think I'm finished with this conversation now, @Maritsa. It's a waste of time.

[Beautiful sky]

1. Declining to do what you want is not being aggressive. 2. You made this public, not I.

I'm finished with this conversation now, @Maritsa. It's a waste of time.

It's extremely aggressive because when you quote a picture despite having asked not to not only do you violent the person's privacy but security. My post is the same way to me. Me asking you in private and you posting your dislike of my reasoning makes you mean.

[Aylen]

Consider for one moment that you are wrong and these children were murdered. Then think about what these conspiracy theories do to their loved ones. Just for a moment. Is that pain really worth your vain claim to knowing what happened?

And spare me the manipulative Fe.

I don't buy into that conspiracy for one moment. Even if there was a miniscule chance that it was faked, I would still err on the side of compassion for the families and not the side of a gun enthusiasts fanatics who started this whole thing because they were afraid the government was out to take their weapons.

I think I am starting to see his point.





The vibes and energy in this thread are disturbing to me.

[Aylen]

fwiw i do find things like this fascinating to look into as well (even when not on drugs ), if for nothing else as structure for fiction in my mind (as well as a bit of an enjoyment over the twinge of "BUT IT COULD ALL BE TRUE!" in the back of head.) The world is infinately more interesting and magical if flat-Earth theory is true and we aren't constained by physics! anything could be possible in that reality.

Turtles all the way down!

I need you to know the TRUTH of how it all went down!

When the Universe was still so dark that not even shadows could be seen in the night, Grandmother Spider sat in her web in the Sky World, waiting and watching. No one knows how old Grandmother Spider is, or how long she sat waiting for the Universal Mind to awaken. But, every Creature Being who has ever lived knows her song and dance as the weaver of the Web of Life.

From her web, Grandmother Spider observed the first thoughts as the Universal Mind awakened from the dream. Seven energy beings floated out from the shining light in the center of the Universal Mind and solidified into bright, shining stars who went out to take their places in the Sky World. Grandmother Spider took a very deep breath and softly began to sing her weaving song while she danced across the Sky. As she spun her thread, Grandmother Spider envisioned the Web of Life. Within moments, she had woven her web connecting the seven stars and creating the Spirit Doorway through which all of the rest of life would enter.


The seven stars reflected the spectrum of all colors within their glow. Dancing with the colored light, shadows came into being as the darkness took form. More thoughts flowed from the Universal Mind, entered through the Doorway of the Seven Stars, and took their places in the Sky World. These became more stars, suns and planets. Then, many other thoughts entered the Universe, each one taking a specific place according to the universal dream of harmony.

Each thought was a spirit essence who dreamed an individual dream for manifesting life. Grandmother Spider spun her web around each new energy being and the Universal Web of Life shimmered in the reflection of Great Mystery's light.

Singing her song and weaving the Web of Life, Grandmother Spider continued with her work. The Sky World filled with light and life as her creative process unfolded. As the stars, suns and planets prepared to give birth to their children, Grandmother Spider spun her cord even longer, so that all of the newly born could be included in the Web of Life. Grandmother Spider continues to weave the Web of Life throughout every cycle of creation.

All life everywhere in the Universe is connected by the Web of Life. We are not separate beings. We are each a part of the Great Mystery, manifesting as an individual awareness in a separate physical body, but sharing the same energy as all other life. The energy web is anchored within our center and is our connection to the Great Mystery.

Along with Grandmother Spider's web cord, we carry within our center our dream for living that includes a promise and a purpose. Before we came into the Earthwalk, we chose the gifts and talents that help us create the reality that we envisioned. We also chose the lessons and challenges that motivate our learning and growth.
Our dream for living carries a specific vibration of sound and color that guides our spirit essence in it's flight from the Universal Mind, through the Sacred Cave, and into the womb of our physical mother. During our Earthwalk, we live our choices and lessons, and develop our talents and gifts, as we meet each situation and challenge of our growth. We must remember our purpose and promise and focus our life in this direction if we are to be happy and fulfilled.
Grandmother Spider weaves the Web of Life around us when our spirit essence enters its physical body inside the womb of our mother. From feet to head, our spirit essence is woven together with our physical body as Grandmother Spider sings her weaving song to us.
When she completes her weaving, Grandmother Spider does not cut the cord, but leaves an energy trail with her weft thread that goes out from our center to connect with the next Creature Being that will enter the Web of Life.

The gift of Grandmother Spider is the personal energy web that we walk with throughout our entire life. This energy web allows our spirit essence to experience our senses, emotional feelings and physical pain and pleasures. This connection also allows our physical body to develop an intuitive perception of Universal Wisdom. Through the web, we can work with energy for creativity and healing. Our personal energy web maintains our connection to the Web of Life and the Great Mystery. This gift of Grandmother Spider insures that we are never alone, for through it we always share the love of All Our Relations.

Our energy web surrounds our physical body, enveloping it with a vibrating energy that is our personal rhythm. Our energy web is connected to our physical body through energy centers that are the communication channels between our physical body and spirit essence. Our mind is the link between body and spirit essence, interpreting and directing the flow of energy back and fourth. Breathing and movement enables our body to direct energy and our thoughts to affect our physical health. To live in comfort, we need to maintain a balance of body, mind and spirit within our personal energy web.

Grandmother Spider is always busy with her work, as the creation of life is happening at every moment. After connecting each Creature Being within her vibrating threads, Grandmother Spider goes on to the next, spinning out a continuous cord in her never ending dance. A Creature Being enters the Earthwalk, then a Plant Person, a Stone Person, a Water Person, a Four-Legged, a Two-Legged, and on and on. For each of these, Grandmother Spider weaves a personal energy web and extends her cord out from this Creature's center to continue on with the weaving of the Web of Life.

The Web of Life is a beautiful braid that holds the energy of all life together. Grandmother Spider's dance of spinning and weaving continues indefinitely, as new patterns within the web are being woven every moment when each new life enters the Earthwalk.

At the other end of Grandmother Spider's tapestry, the web is always unraveling, as every spirit essence travels back through the doorway of the Sacred Cave to the Spirit World when life is complete.

All life shares an equal place within the Web of Life. The gifts and contributions of each and every Creature Being are very important for the survival of MotherEarth. Each Creature Being, in following through with the performance of their specific life task, affects the welfare of all the other Creature Beings in the web. Without the benefit of even one Creature's work, the Web of Life would lack the energy of wholeness necessary for the circle of life's cycles to continue on with their rhythm.

© Spider 2000, an excerpt from Grandmother Spider And The Web Of Life

[Kim]

P.S. I love your quote. And I can tell you about a couple of GREAT places to go in the Adirondacks.

This is manipulative Fe. Trying to smooth over things for the sake of maintaining a pleasant atmosphere.

I am not going to debate any longer. It's disturbing to me and all of the idiotic conspiracy theories around Sandy Hook have been addressed:


Sandy Hook Hoax Theories Explained: Why Newtown ‘Truther’ Arguments Don’t Hold Up

What Kind of Person Calls a Mass Shooting a Hoax?


Sandy Hook Conspiracy Theory Video Debunked By Experts


Your comprehensive answer to every Sandy Hook conspiracy theory

Vance said he was disgusted by the conspiracy theories. “There’s no hoax. I was there. I stepped over the dead children. That’s no hoax. And it’s offensive to me as an investigator, and it’s offensive to the families who lost their babies to have people come up with silliness like this. Whatever their reasoning is, whatever their rationale is, it’s just terribly offensive,” Vance added.

But sure, if you enjoy torturing grieving parents, I guess you should go right ahead. It's the Christian way.

[Kim]

@Maritsa

I am not moderator anymore.

[Kim]

I don't buy into that conspiracy for one moment. Even if there was a miniscule chance that it was faked, I would still err on the side of compassion for the families and not the side of a gun enthusiasts fanatics who started this whole thing because they were afraid the government was out to take their weapons.

Exactly. But to be able to do that, you have to be able to feel empathy and not make everything about yourself and your agenda.

[Eliza Thomason]

@Starfall @Kim please delete my quote in post 641. Thank you
@mu4

I would prefer you didn't, @Starfall @Kim

Maritsa emailed me asking me to delete my post altogether, which I declined to do. I realize you guys have a responsibility to do whatever you think is best, but her reason of "it compromises @Eliza Thomason's personal security" is ridiculous, manipulative, and stupid. In that quote all she does is describe ET's fit as IEE; no personal info of any kind is mentioned, and since @Maritsa was the one to initiate that particular derail, I would prefer her words stay, as someone mentioned my response to her as if it came out of nowhere (which it looks like it did, w Maritsa's post is gone).

Why? The reason you gave in your PM doesn't make sense, and for some reason you've decided to make this public. So please answer the question I asked in my PM response: why?

It's extremely aggressive because when you quote a picture despite having asked not to not only do you violent the person's privacy but security. My post is the same way to me. Me asking you in private and you posting your dislike of my reasoning makes you mean.

Wow, I am surprised at this conversation. For the curious that are involved in this senseless thing:

After Maritsa's post I PM'd her to ask she not mention anything else about me. She happens to know a bit more of my personal identity than most people here. Her post was a not very revealing, but I just didn't want it to go any further so I reminded her I am nervous abut my privacy because of my past experience and asked her not to let it go any further. And she offered to take it down, and I said great. Please note that I did not actually ask her to take it down. It wasn't that important.

Maritsa, trying to be helpful, took it upon herself to ask others to remove it from their posts. I would not have done that myself. I PM'd Maritsa only because she is my freind who I knew would respect my request completely (and she did, so much so that she took it a step further). I don't have that level of trust with anyone else here on this thread so I wouldn't have asked anyone else. Trust - it takes time to get to know people in general but sometimes you meet someone you feel you know well, right away. (For me, Maritsa is one of those). It takes knowing a person to trust them. And people in this thread - I know them a little, but not a lot.

The post was not a big deal.

But Saffie since you are one of the curious ones -- and I respect a curious mind, believe me (although personally, I make a real effort to NOT be curious about anything about a person that they have not chosen to share - because I place respecting a person's personal privacy at a high level) -- I will explain, for your benefit, the curiosity of the "mysterious motive" behind my private message to Maritsa.

I have always naturally tended to being a trusting, open and transparent person. That worked against me many years married to a manipulator, most particularly because I trusted him and assigned good motives (along with his personal damage and what I assumed was communication problems) to him. Basically I had good motives and assumed he did too. So that worked against me, to the point that when my ex decided to leave us, he manipulated for his own advantage, including telling many, many lies about me to the courts based on normal real life things, including things I had said online, for his nefarious reasons. It was truly a hell, one that sucked all the money and investments (like my home!) that I had worked for so many years. Court battles are expensive, and anyone can say anything about anyone, and it has to be examined, and the money clock is ticking and ticking fast while this happens. And it takes many, many times longer, and much more effort to defend a lie than it does to state one. It was a horrible experience that changed me. However, I am grateful because it was a helplessness, and in my helplessness I relied on God, and because of that i can now say that this is 100% the TRUTH, and I would stand by it with my LIFE: That God is an ever present help in trouble.

Truly I am grateful to have 100% confidence in that TRUTH, grateful because I feel I probably could not know it without the terrible trouble I went through.

But I am not seeking trouble and I have learned to be wary about trusting. And, to bring it to the topic, I am very wary about my online presence, which is about nothing, and it means a lot to my feeling of personal safety to stay that way.

So when i came here in 2011, I wanted to write freely about myself and to do so I needed to be anonymous. I write very freely, about myself and my opinions and about loved ones in my life, and my ex who is my child's father, and so also to protect them also it remains important to be anonymous. This works against the part of me that wants to be transparent and share all. I have to constantly keep that in check, remembered that anonymity makes openness possible in my case.

So the mystery is that simple. I know others here who also protect their privacy for personal and professional reasons, so it should not be unusual. And since you have experienced a manipulating, boundary-pushing person in your life, so I would think that would be easy for you to understand.

And, @Eliza Thomason, while I like you fine as a person and think you seem kind, and while I respect your right to believe whatever you choose, I question your discernment based on this and other theories you believe. Pi being 4, for example.....

I just wanted to add to my earlier comment about this, though I cannot claim allegiance to the Pi=4 theory, or any Pi theory, I do respect your questioning my discernment for whatever reason, even if its just an unexplained gut feeling. Because I think one should question everything. And understand for yourself. And trust who you think is worthy of your trust. And to get there - its different for everybody.

[Beautiful sky]

Eliza, a person's privacy is their right not privilege. You don't have to earn it.

[Eliza Thomason]

This is manipulative Fe. Trying to smooth over things for the sake of maintaining a pleasant atmosphere.

Again, to me, manipulative FE is, instead, telling people how they are supposed to feel about a thing, the words they should say and the proper emotive response they are supposed to have.

For me a very strong characteristic that happens to be associated with IEE is that I think a negative conversation is not worth having.

So I can see that we are in disagreement about Sandy Hook. I am convinced because I have seen the documentaries and any average person with a brain and an unprejudiced open mind would be convinced IMO. You have not seen them and certainly should not see them if you don't want to. I can understand wanting to only see the "debunkers" who side with the view you prefer. I have done that myself at times.

You explained your compelling reason for your distaste for the idea of Sandy Hook as a hoax, wanting to believe your very good freind who believes her coworker, who is married to the father, who lives in another state. I get it. And it does not matter to me who believes this or not. Unlike that professor in Florida in the link you gave, I am not a missionary for hoaxes and I really don't care how people feel about them. It is fine with me for you to feel what you feel.

That should make sense. It was pretty thorough. I have said it before: the IEE trait often explained in Socionics where the IEE flees from a contentious argument is alive and well in me. And you and I have reached the end of our discussion on this. We have made our points. We should be done, right? Because I assure you it is 100% fine for me for you to have a different opinion. It honestly does NOT make me like you ANY LESS.

So I change the subject to one that matters to me and to you. I did that right now because it happens that when I hit "quick reply with quote" to one of your posts, I see on my screen only what I am writing AND your quote. And the word "Adirondacks" JUMPED out at me. I love the Adirondacks. So, I read the quote. And I thought: Kim must have written this. I can see Kim with her suitcase packed ready to enjoy life and enjoy it more with a loved one. You have a certain lust for life and I respect that about you; I like it. And I happen to LOVE the Adirondacks. Just this week I was researching those places I mentioned. We cannot take a vacation now, not this summer, because we cannot leave my mother at this time, but I was just dreaming about it. If we could get away, its where I would go. They book early, but about now, and next month and the next, and really all the way through August you can check for cancellations. (Though the Adirondacks AFTER the 4th is better. Before July 4th: black flies.)

So I brought it up because it was there. And it matters to me that a conversation ends on a positive note. I really, really prefer to dwell on points of agreement with people. Imposing my own views on people, particularly when it does them no real good at all to hold my view is something that I just don't want to do. Even if I were convinced my view will do a person good, I tend to withhold it, because unless I know where that person stands and unless they ask me to share, most of the time, its not appropriate to share it.

But sure, if you enjoy torturing grieving parents, I guess you should go right ahead. It's the Christian way.

My conscious is clear on this but like I said, should you be right and what looks all the world to me like fake grief is, somehow, real grief, and that I might upset those people who totally seem to be very, very happy and relaxed people, even in the very midst of MOST grief-inducing situation - then you can rest assured that I am not important enough of a person for anyone to notice of my wrong opinion.

[Eliza Thomason]

I need you to know the TRUTH of how it all went down!

When the Universe was still so dark that not even shadows could be seen in the night, Grandmother Spider sat in her web in the Sky World, waiting and watching. No one knows how old Grandmother Spider is, or how long she sat waiting for the Universal Mind to awaken. But, every Creature Being who has ever lived knows her song and dance as the weaver of the Web of Life.

From her web, Grandmother Spider observed the first thoughts as the Universal Mind awakened from the dream. Seven energy beings floated out from the shining light in the center of the Universal Mind and solidified into bright, shining stars who went out to take their places in the Sky World. Grandmother Spider took a very deep breath and softly began to sing her weaving song while she danced across the Sky. As she spun her thread, Grandmother Spider envisioned the Web of Life. Within moments, she had woven her web connecting the seven stars and creating the Spirit Doorway through which all of the rest of life would enter.


The seven stars reflected the spectrum of all colors within their glow. Dancing with the colored light, shadows came into being as the darkness took form. More thoughts flowed from the Universal Mind, entered through the Doorway of the Seven Stars, and took their places in the Sky World. These became more stars, suns and planets. Then, many other thoughts entered the Universe, each one taking a specific place according to the universal dream of harmony.

Each thought was a spirit essence who dreamed an individual dream for manifesting life. Grandmother Spider spun her web around each new energy being and the Universal Web of Life shimmered in the reflection of Great Mystery's light.

Singing her song and weaving the Web of Life, Grandmother Spider continued with her work. The Sky World filled with light and life as her creative process unfolded. As the stars, suns and planets prepared to give birth to their children, Grandmother Spider spun her cord even longer, so that all of the newly born could be included in the Web of Life. Grandmother Spider continues to weave the Web of Life throughout every cycle of creation.

All life everywhere in the Universe is connected by the Web of Life. We are not separate beings. We are each a part of the Great Mystery, manifesting as an individual awareness in a separate physical body, but sharing the same energy as all other life. The energy web is anchored within our center and is our connection to the Great Mystery.

Along with Grandmother Spider's web cord, we carry within our center our dream for living that includes a promise and a purpose. Before we came into the Earthwalk, we chose the gifts and talents that help us create the reality that we envisioned. We also chose the lessons and challenges that motivate our learning and growth.
Our dream for living carries a specific vibration of sound and color that guides our spirit essence in it's flight from the Universal Mind, through the Sacred Cave, and into the womb of our physical mother. During our Earthwalk, we live our choices and lessons, and develop our talents and gifts, as we meet each situation and challenge of our growth. We must remember our purpose and promise and focus our life in this direction if we are to be happy and fulfilled.
Grandmother Spider weaves the Web of Life around us when our spirit essence enters its physical body inside the womb of our mother. From feet to head, our spirit essence is woven together with our physical body as Grandmother Spider sings her weaving song to us.
When she completes her weaving, Grandmother Spider does not cut the cord, but leaves an energy trail with her weft thread that goes out from our center to connect with the next Creature Being that will enter the Web of Life.

The gift of Grandmother Spider is the personal energy web that we walk with throughout our entire life. This energy web allows our spirit essence to experience our senses, emotional feelings and physical pain and pleasures. This connection also allows our physical body to develop an intuitive perception of Universal Wisdom. Through the web, we can work with energy for creativity and healing. Our personal energy web maintains our connection to the Web of Life and the Great Mystery. This gift of Grandmother Spider insures that we are never alone, for through it we always share the love of All Our Relations.

Our energy web surrounds our physical body, enveloping it with a vibrating energy that is our personal rhythm. Our energy web is connected to our physical body through energy centers that are the communication channels between our physical body and spirit essence. Our mind is the link between body and spirit essence, interpreting and directing the flow of energy back and fourth. Breathing and movement enables our body to direct energy and our thoughts to affect our physical health. To live in comfort, we need to maintain a balance of body, mind and spirit within our personal energy web.

Grandmother Spider is always busy with her work, as the creation of life is happening at every moment. After connecting each Creature Being within her vibrating threads, Grandmother Spider goes on to the next, spinning out a continuous cord in her never ending dance. A Creature Being enters the Earthwalk, then a Plant Person, a Stone Person, a Water Person, a Four-Legged, a Two-Legged, and on and on. For each of these, Grandmother Spider weaves a personal energy web and extends her cord out from this Creature's center to continue on with the weaving of the Web of Life.

The Web of Life is a beautiful braid that holds the energy of all life together. Grandmother Spider's dance of spinning and weaving continues indefinitely, as new patterns within the web are being woven every moment when each new life enters the Earthwalk.

At the other end of Grandmother Spider's tapestry, the web is always unraveling, as every spirit essence travels back through the doorway of the Sacred Cave to the Spirit World when life is complete.

All life shares an equal place within the Web of Life. The gifts and contributions of each and every Creature Being are very important for the survival of MotherEarth. Each Creature Being, in following through with the performance of their specific life task, affects the welfare of all the other Creature Beings in the web. Without the benefit of even one Creature's work, the Web of Life would lack the energy of wholeness necessary for the circle of life's cycles to continue on with their rhythm.

© Spider 2000, an excerpt from Grandmother Spider And The Web Of Life

I'll have what you're having.

[darya]

Read the post I wrote following this one; I don't care what quadra she or anyone here is in, and I never brought it up. What I did do was wonder aloud whether it's exclusively Ne types who entertain new kinds of ideas, as I would think intellectual curiosity and integrity would lead people to at least look...though maybe the reason I think that is I'm Ne-base, I agree. In my next post, you'll see where I agree I as an IEE/Ne type feel compelled to investigate new ideas such as this. And I can see how this might be an Ne thread... though long ago there was an LSI member -- I've forgotten his name -- who spouted similar theories frequently and believed in many conspiracies, fwiw.

So, I said something other than what you seem to think I said. Know the difference

Anyway, I don't really see why we're talking about types in this thread, and I'd rather see what @Eliza Thomason or others who believe Earth is a flat disc have to say -- at the moment I'm still curious about the motives of those who would pull off such a conspiracy.

E6 people are especially obssessed with such conspiracies - many LSI's, IEE's, even SEE's I've seen falling for any new batshit theory.

[Kim]

You explained your compelling reason for your distaste for the idea of Sandy Hook as a hoax, wanting to believe your very good freind who believes her coworker, who is married to the father, who lives in another state. I get it. And it does not matter to me who believes this or not. Unlike that professor in Florida in the link you gave, I am not a missionary for hoaxes and I really don't care how people feel about them. It is fine with me for you to feel what you feel.

No, you don't get it. My reason is that there is plenty of evidence AGAINST the hoax theory. There is no compelling reason to even stage such a thing. But most importantly, it taints and violates the legacy of dead CHILDREN and their grieving parents who have been harassed by conspiracy nutjobs. One of them asked a father to show the corpse of his dead son for evidence. That's the sort of disgusting behavior you condone with this crap. But really, I can't talk about this anymore. It's too disturbing.

[Eliza Thomason]

No, you don't get it. My reason is that there is plenty of evidence AGAINST the hoax theory. There is no compelling reason to even stage such a thing. But most importantly, it taints and violates the legacy of dead CHILDREN and their grieving parents who have been harassed by conspiracy nutjobs. One of them asked a father to show the corpse of his dead son for evidence. That's the sort of disgusting behavior you condone with this crap. But really, I can't talk about this anymore. It's too disturbing.

I see your point. It would be terrible to violate the legacy of dead children. But not when you are quite convinced they are NOT dead. That's why I cannot accept your idea that I am hurting anyone. My conscience is clear on that. NONE of those alleged victims are dead - I am well convinced of that belief. Anyway these victims have died another death elsewhere in the world, and I just don't believe in reincarnation.

On the other hand you feel your opinion is convincing because you have seen the debunking videos and articles. But if you even looked at any of those links I gave you, IMO, it would be hard to deny there is at least. However I completely and totally respect you do not want to look at them. I totally respect that you feel it would be immoral and hurtful to the families to consider their deaths a hoax. I just don't share the same feeling.

We actually had this conversation before, early in this same long thread, and neither of us are changing, and that's fine with me. Maybe you could start a Sandy Hook thread if you feel you want to convince people that they should not believe that SH is a hoax. Although I myself have nothing more to say on it than what's been said here...

[Eliza Thomason]

E6 people are especially obssessed with such conspiracies - many LSI's, IEE's, even SEE's I've seen falling for any new batshit theory.

Maybe. But I am not E6; I am E1w2. Not anywhere even NEAR a 6 description in makeup, but my ESE ex was one, so i am personally familiar the makeup and orientations of 6. That's about all I have to offer on Enneagram. As to Socionics types falling for theories, I have not seen that in those types myself. However, you imply you see it in me so I really wonder what you mean by "falling for". Seems like a rush-to-judgment to me; which is something I really avoid doing both with people and with ideas. J-types tend to be vulnerable to doing that, though...

[darya]

Maybe. But I am not E6; I am E1w2. Not anywhere even NEAR a 6 description in makeup, but my ESE ex was one, so i am personally familiar the makeup and orientations of 6. That's about all I have to offer on Enneagram. As to Socionics types falling for theories, I have not seen that in those types myself. However, you imply you see it in me so I really wonder what you mean by "falling for". Seems like a rush-to-judgment to me; which is something I really avoid doing both with people and with ideas. J-types tend to be vulnerable to doing that, though...

I'm not saying you're E6 at all, I was talking in generalities - that e6's are the biggest offenders when it comes to conspiracy theories and that it isn't a Ne thing specifically. While you do struck me as a mix of 1 and 2 and 1w2 sounds great, I'm very confused how can EP or any irrational be E1? E1 is all about judging and right/wrong after all.

[Capitalist Pig]

I sure wish I had Eliza as a teacher in school. It would have been nice not to have to think for myself and just use unofficial internet sources to write science and history papers. If challenged, I could just reply with, "Oh yeah? Well that's not what TheTruthIsOutThere99 wrote on his Geocities page about jet fuel and steel beams!"

[Eliza Thomason]

I'm not saying you're E6 at all, I was talking in generalities

Oh I see.

- that e6's are the biggest offenders when it comes to conspiracy theories

I'd say my ESE-ex is an exception to this to this rule (and I have no other close ties to 6's that I can think of to compare). His exception could well be that it would just be too much for any individual with the concerns and complications of being a Narcissist.

and that it isn't a Ne thing specifically.

Especially "p" Ne's - we are open to keep exploring and entertaining new ideas but slow to make a definitive decision one way or another...

While you do struck me as a mix of 1 and 2 and 1w2 sounds great, I'm very confused how can EP or any irrational be E1? E1 is all about judging and right/wrong after all.

Well, maybe I can be of help explaining how I am, to you, since you seem knowledgeable on Enneagram.

The tests i took and the descriptions were always divided closely between 1 and 2. I looked at E1 negatives and said, "Naw, that's not me." I never really looked closely on the 2 negatives. But when someone here on on 16types, who did ot know me, and certainly seemed to dislike me as a person accused me of having the motives of a E2's faults, it sounded so insane to me. And I could not own any of it. But we all have faults, so I looked at them closely to see and sure enough, I am just opposite of that, in fact when an E2 friend (ESE - wonderful person) is at her emotional worst she displays those things and it woudl surprise me because such reactions were completely foreign to me.And had to admit she was WAY better at being an E2 than me! So it was time to take a good hard look at E1's faults and see if I was in denial. I realized I was, and though the key fault is anger, and I am NOTHING like my ex in anger (he was pathological in that way so an unfair comparison) and even though I express little anger throughout the day (my husband does, over little things, quite loudly. But them he is immediately over it and there is nothing scary about it like with my ex) I do complain about aloud annoyances, not always, because I grew up trained not to do that I guess, but I have long since known that "depression is anger turned inward" and I am definitely guilty of turning my anger inward at times, impatient with myself for not doing a thing right, sometimes getting into a funk where I am just stuck because of it. So, yeah, that's a fault. (And I am glad I am anonymous so I can blab about it here).

About the irrational part of it; I have to depart right now, but I will explain quick. I used to be good at Sunsigns, I could once guess times on 1st or 2nd try pretty cositently but I am quite rusty now. I rejected it awhile back but I am thinking the stars do teach us like they did the wise men and I am interested again (but no time to pursue at the moment). But I noticed its hard to find sunsign consistency at ALL in Socionics and MBTI as well. So I have the idea that various type systems overlay almost randomly, as to other type systems. Like Enneagram. But I am not an expert on the latter.

[Eliza Thomason]

...But I have long since known that "depression is anger turned inward" and I am definitely guilty of turning my anger inward at times, impatient with myself for not doing a thing right...

Now I want add more, @darya. Maybe you will be interested to have an understanding of how IEE takes on an E1 orientation. It applies to feelings, ideas, thoughts, moral correctness particularly in kindness in relationships and in doing the right thing even when it hurts. That this is very tied into relationships may have something to do with not just IEE but also with sx/so. Those three )sx/so/sp are all close with me, particularly the last two, but that's the order that always comes up.

I have found myself increasingly depressed today and I have been contemplating why. I have been remembering this last Enneagram discussion with you since I signed off. And I realize why I am depressed, and this lingering depressed feeling about the forum interactions is one I have had before, and it can last MORE than a day, even part of a week. It has happened too often. I need to figure out why and think about what I can do about it. Writing here about my feelings I think will help.

As I have explained to @Kim many times, I do very much possess the IEE trait of feeling that A NEGATIVE CONVERSATION IS NOT WORTH HAVING.

So, as an E1, I take personal responsibility for doing (what is to me) the right thing AND doing it well so that conversations do not turn bad, because to me, that is the right way. That includes showing respect for differing opinions and not arguing, not dwelling on the negatives at ALL, and genuinely seeing the best in others. I guess I feel if I do that - which to me, for me, I am convinced is the right thing, and worth EVERY effort. And, if I apply myself and do it right, I can therefore take responsibility for avoiding negative conversations.

Well I am depressed about earlier communications with Kim here, and to a lesser extent, also with @sapphire who I do not know well, but Saffie did surprise me with some negativity, and I felt bad. Kim and I have had negative conversations before that I found unpleasant, like the very same conversation we also had in the beginning of the thread. And its painful for me every time. And I can see it coming with the first attack (it feels like an attack to me, and I stupidly go for the bait). Yes, so I am mad at myself for that.

I should add, Kim and I have also had very positive conversations and I cherish them.

Negative comments like what @Capitalist Pig makes I can take, because he just seems to have a personality where he can be, at times, just rough around the edges. But I see him as an equal-opportunity harsh critic, and unlike some of the other negative, negative conversations I have had hear that do not fail to truly depress me, he does not seem glob onto me and keep being persistent with the negativity, no matter how hard I try to drop the subject and bring it to something positive. (Not a dynamic I have ever had with him, or expect to).

So I feel depressed, and its a lasting depression today that did not end when I shut off the computer, but stayed. Which is all too familiar, so I examined it. And I see it is anger turned inward. As an E1, I am angry at myself for doing it "wrong" and also for being a fool getting caught in a trap that I have been caught in before, the negative conversation trap, and, even more foolishly, its the SAME CONVERSATION I had before with the same person. Why did I let myself get sucked in?? No good came of it, at all. A depressing waste of time, that I regret, and I am not happy with myself over it.

Which also is one reason why I question your type, Kim. If IEEs absolutely hate negative conversation and constantly run from them, then why are we at it - you who are supposed to be my Identical and should understand that about IEE sensitivity to negative conversations. And why does the negativity not bother you?? It feels like when we get into one of those its starts with an accusation from you to me, and NO MATTER WHAT I DO, I can't shed you when you want to be negative towards me. It works with me, if I am in a negative conversation and someone sheds their negativity and starts being kind and positive - glob onto it with great relief, like its a life preserver. But that's not your reaction to my efforts, in fact it seems OPPOSITE, it almost seems like a GOAD causing you to get MORE negative and mean. Like a rottweiler hanging onto the negative come hell or high water. That's how I experience it.

Yet another reason why I see SEE for you Kim, because a SEE will do this. And SEE will not do it out of mean-spiritedness (even if it comes across mean). I realize that. Its just that a SEE's gets a STRONG personal reaction to a thing and, WHAM! out comes their feelings strongly expressed and no hesitation. Their personal feelings about a thing take precedence, they are out there front and center, including a negative, critical conversation they are in and are of no mood to end, and including telling someone they are a terrible person - this is okay for a SEE to say because they feel it so they just say what they feel.

Whereas instead an IEE does NOT think the feeling-reactions that come upon her suddenly (that she doesn't even understand when overwhelmed by them) should be shared, not without being mulled over and considered closely, alone, first. If an IEE feels that something will possibly hurt someone's feelings they keep it to themselves. It takes a great, great higher reason to share it. I don't see you doing that. You are assertive about your feelings and confident in what you feel WHEN you feel it.

So I am telling you all about it Kim because we have had good conversations and I respect you and like you. But I get depressed when we get in negative conversations. So maybe its my fault for keeping mum and not expressing how I feel, so, after mulling, I am doing so now. Also Saffie a bit, above. Just her arguing with @Maritsa made me depressed, and particularly depressed that it had to do with me, and it was such a stupid unnecessary thing to argue and be unkind and rude to each other about. E1 says to me: you should have anticipated this and prevented it somehow.

So. Whatever. That's the fact. I'm just sharing my personal reaction.

Can't we all just be nice? That's what I am thinking. I think its a Delta thing. Isn't it? To just want to avoid personal conflicts, and just be nice??

I get along great with my husband's SEE daughter though it was rough at first but there was good reasons. Now we have a relationship, and its one that makes me happy. And I think not expecting a SEE to act like an IEE, but a SEE has helped with that and it means a lot to me.

Anyway, I thought, maybe, it would help to say what i feel so I am giving it a shot.

[SongOfSapphire]

You and I haven't had particularly negative conversations as far as I know, @Eliza Thomason, unless you count us disagreeing on the validity of some conspiracy theories. Maritsa and I had a somewhat unpleasant conversation, but that didn't have to do w you in my mind; I see from the backstory you provided above that it did, but...eh, I've explained myself already, I think.

If you're wondering about my "liking" @Capitalist Pig's posts, well I do like them. I was a teacher myself, pre-baby, and one thing I harped on w my students was that they must think and consider information critically. Some of the sources you have posted are outright flimsy, and I certainly would have given low marks to a student handing in essays based on such weak sources, which imo they should be able to discern for themselves are weak.

Just a point responding to what you said above: IEEs don't necessarily avoid negative conversations as in negative tone as in unpleasant Fe. That is Alpha SF behavior. link

[Kim]

Which also is one reason why I question your type, Kim. If IEEs absolutely hate negative conversation and constantly run from them, then why are we at it - you who are supposed to be my Identical and should understand that about IEE sensitivity to negative conversations. And why does the negativity not bother you?? It feels like when we get into one of those its starts with an accusation from you to me, and NO MATTER WHAT I DO, I can't shed you when you want to be negative towards me. It works with me, if I am in a negative conversation and someone sheds their negativity and starts being kind and positive - glob onto it with great relief, like its a life preserver. But that's not your reaction to my efforts, in fact it seems OPPOSITE, it almost seems like a GOAD causing you to get MORE negative and mean. Like a rottweiler hanging onto the negative come hell or high water. That's how I experience it.

Yet another reason why I see SEE for you Kim, because a SEE will do this. And SEE will not do it out of mean-spiritedness (even if it comes across mean). I realize that. Its just that a SEE's gets a STRONG personal reaction to a thing and, WHAM! out comes their feelings strongly expressed and no hesitation. Their personal feelings about a thing take precedence, they are out there front and center, including a negative, critical conversation they are in and are of no mood to end, and including telling someone they are a terrible person - this is okay for a SEE to say because they feel it so they just say what they feel.

Whereas instead an IEE does NOT think the feeling-reactions that come upon her suddenly (that she doesn't even understand when overwhelmed by them) should be shared, not without being mulled over and considered closely, alone, first. If an IEE feels that something will possibly hurt someone's feelings they keep it to themselves. It takes a great, great higher reason to share it. I don't see you doing that. You are assertive about your feelings and confident in what you feel WHEN you feel it.

So I am telling you all about it Kim because we have had good conversations and I respect you and like you. But I get depressed when we get in negative conversations. So maybe its my fault for keeping mum and not expressing how I feel, so, after mulling, I am doing so now. Also Saffie a bit, above. Just her arguing with @Maritsa made me depressed, and particularly depressed that it had to do with me, and it was such a stupid unnecessary thing to argue and be unkind and rude to each other about. E1 says to me: you should have anticipated this and prevented it somehow.

So. Whatever. That's the fact. I'm just sharing my personal reaction.

Can't we all just be nice? That's what I am thinking. I think its a Delta thing. Isn't it? To just want to avoid personal conflicts, and just be nice??

I get along great with my husband's SEE daughter though it was rough at first but there was good reasons. Now we have a relationship, and its one that makes me happy. And I think not expecting a SEE to act like an IEE, but a SEE has helped with that and it means a lot to me.

Anyway, I thought, maybe, it would help to say what i feel so I am giving it a shot.

You are not IEE, you are ESE. It's so crystal-clear in this thread. You work on the basis of the inherent logic within conspiracy theories. You don't gather Te and evaluate from all angles. You are not interested in the evidence I show you (which has addressed every single argument your sources brought forth) or any evidence that could threaten your viewpoint. You clearly value Ti.

It makes no sense that IEEs would be so dependent and protective of a pleasant atmosphere as you are. That is Fe-valuing. You want to disagree and still be friends. I have a hard time with that because when you so openly dismiss and often disrespect things I feel strongly about, I feel my relationship with you is tainted (Fi) and using Fe to smooth it over feels artificial and "wrong" to me. I cannot have a disagreement about something I feel strongly about and talk about kitties and Adirondack hikes in that moment. I need to work through the conflict first. I value Te, so I want to gather information and I need to reassess our relationship because I have to figure out if I can be friends with someone who in this moment appears to me as a callous person. it always baffles me when people have heated disagreements and a moment later laugh and cheer as if nothing happened. Furthermore, I don't turn to Fe in moments of crisis, I turn to Se (role) and I become more forceful, which is in line with various IEE descriptions. Your natural inclination is to smooth over and always be friends (because you are Fe-leading). I don't know if I want to be your friend because I don't trust you. But I want you to understand what I am trying to say because your position on Sandy Hook is so profoundly hurtful and callous. It is not at all unusual for IEEs to react strongly about issues they feel passionate about.

I am not rude for the sake of being rude. I can be aggressive and forceful when I get frustrated. I also have a non-type-related temper. AND I am sx/so (you are not, you are sp/so, that is crystal-clear, too).

They may identify so strongly with whatever they’re involved with that they often become the symbol of its core essence, and sometimes its lead agent for change. Hardly content with the status quo, this subvariant seeks to alter the fundamental structure of something while at once embodying it’s purest or most extreme form. Possibly attracted to radical views on politics, philosophy, spirituality or creativity that reflect their penchant for testing boundaries. They enjoy pushing other’s buttons, especially those resistant to their modes of expression.

Sexual instinct can be called the instinct of attraction. It’s aggressive, competitive, single-minded, "all-or-nothing". Use of this energy is intensely fiery and affirmative, go-get-it approach, a life-and-death matter e.g. salmon swimming upstream to mate and die. With this instincts you are either turned on or you're not - it is what it is; you cannot fight mother nature. With this instinct one's attention is wholly captivated energetically by someone or something.

Expression: intense, outer-focused
Energy: intense energy expressed outwards, assertively
Behavior: intense, assertive, sultry and aggressive
Mindset: "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
Blind spot: Likely to neglect their desire to build their sense of personal value, accomplishment, and security of place with others for the sake of their primary concern of seeking intense connections and experiences, in average-healthy levels. May not have an awareness of the body's need for food or sleep, or of the need to accumulate wealth for reasons of security, or of the need to manage time or resources to establish an orderly lifestyle.

So the way I approach debates with you does not speak against my self-typing. Your quest for peace and harmony, on the other hand, speaks to you being Fe-leading. The way you prioritize the presentation of facts is Ti>Te. The ease with which you switch back and forth between debating an issue and throwing around pleasantries and your intense desire to be friends at all times is Fe > Fi. You are not Ne-leading because you outright refuse to see other perspectives. You are not NeFi because you are not interested in how circumstances might affect different people differently (you only care about how they affect you and project that onto all of reality. If you have not experienced it, you cannot comprehend for it to exist or manifest). No cause is about people or humanity for you, especially not in the abstract - it is always about you and your immediate reality (sensing vs. intuitive and certainly not NeFi). You seem to care most about comfort and aesthetics (food, curtains, home improvement, your backyard, etc.) which fits perfectly with ESE sp/so. You only strongly care about religion, but your religion is all about you and what it does for you. Compare with approaches to religion that are much more steeped in a desire to do good for others. You don't seem to be all that interested in helping others improve and live up to their potential.

It's profoundly annoying that in every single debate, when you run out of things to say, you make it about type. Subteigh turns ILI, I turn SEE, etc. I have sucked it up for a long time because I didn't want to go down the patronizing route of "well you are wrong, but that's ok, you are type xyz." In this case, however, I have gotten sick of your self-assured, patronizing, and disrespectful way of claiming IEE for yourself and dismissing what I say and do because I am a type you don't get along with (yes yes sure you love SEEs....).

So when we have a discussion, kindly refrain from using re-typing as a weapon. It does not work because we don't see eye-to-eye on these typings, so it's pointless. Stick to the issue.

[Aylen]

I should add, Kim and I have also had very positive conversations and I cherish them.

Negative comments like what @Capitalist Pig makes I can take, because he just seems to have a personality where he can be, at times, just rough around the edges. But I see him as an equal-opportunity harsh critic, and unlike some of the other negative, negative conversations I have had hear that do not fail to truly depress me, he does not seem glob onto me and keep being persistent with the negativity, no matter how hard I try to drop the subject and bring it to something positive. (Not a dynamic I have ever had with him, or expect to).

So I feel depressed, and its a lasting depression today that did not end when I shut off the computer, but stayed. Which is all too familiar, so I examined it. And I see it is anger turned inward. As an E1, I am angry at myself for doing it "wrong" and also for being a fool getting caught in a trap that I have been caught in before, the negative conversation trap, and, even more foolishly, its the SAME CONVERSATION I had before with the same person. Why did I let myself get sucked in?? No good came of it, at all. A depressing waste of time, that I regret, and I am not happy with myself over it.

Which also is one reason why I question your type, Kim. If IEEs absolutely hate negative conversation and constantly run from them, then why are we at it - you who are supposed to be my Identical and should understand that about IEE sensitivity to negative conversations. And why does the negativity not bother you?? It feels like when we get into one of those its starts with an accusation from you to me, and NO MATTER WHAT I DO, I can't shed you when you want to be negative towards me. It works with me, if I am in a negative conversation and someone sheds their negativity and starts being kind and positive - glob onto it with great relief, like its a life preserver. But that's not your reaction to my efforts, in fact it seems OPPOSITE, it almost seems like a GOAD causing you to get MORE negative and mean. Like a rottweiler hanging onto the negative come hell or high water. That's how I experience it.

Yet another reason why I see SEE for you Kim, because a SEE will do this. And SEE will not do it out of mean-spiritedness (even if it comes across mean). I realize that. Its just that a SEE's gets a STRONG personal reaction to a thing and, WHAM! out comes their feelings strongly expressed and no hesitation. Their personal feelings about a thing take precedence, they are out there front and center, including a negative, critical conversation they are in and are of no mood to end, and including telling someone they are a terrible person - this is okay for a SEE to say because they feel it so they just say what they feel.

Whereas instead an IEE does NOT think the feeling-reactions that come upon her suddenly (that she doesn't even understand when overwhelmed by them) should be shared, not without being mulled over and considered closely, alone, first. If an IEE feels that something will possibly hurt someone's feelings they keep it to themselves. It takes a great, great higher reason to share it. I don't see you doing that. You are assertive about your feelings and confident in what you feel WHEN you feel it.

So I am telling you all about it Kim because we have had good conversations and I respect you and like you. But I get depressed when we get in negative conversations. So maybe its my fault for keeping mum and not expressing how I feel, so, after mulling, I am doing so now. Also Saffie a bit, above. Just her arguing with @Maritsa made me depressed, and particularly depressed that it had to do with me, and it was such a stupid unnecessary thing to argue and be unkind and rude to each other about. E1 says to me: you should have anticipated this and prevented it somehow.

So. Whatever. That's the fact. I'm just sharing my personal reaction.

Can't we all just be nice? That's what I am thinking. I think its a Delta thing. Isn't it? To just want to avoid personal conflicts, and just be nice??

I get along great with my husband's SEE daughter though it was rough at first but there was good reasons. Now we have a relationship, and its one that makes me happy. And I think not expecting a SEE to act like an IEE, but a SEE has helped with that and it means a lot to me.

Anyway, I thought, maybe, it would help to say what i feel so I am giving it a shot.

I think if you truly wanted to avoid conflict you would refrain from retyping @Kim every time she does not fit your idea of an IEE. I mean maybe you don't see it but retyping someone because they are not just like you, or your idea of what a type may be, is just asking for conflict. Why not relate to her as another human being and drop the socionics stuff. Not all identicals are the same but I understand that the term "identical" is misleading enough and you are not the only one who fuels unnecessary conflict by retyping others because they don't actually understand or see where the other person is coming from.

I was also disturbed by your Sandy Hook claims but I took a step back and didn't post what I had intended to originally because I was highly annoyed and I knew no good would come of it. The flat earth thing just leaves me scratching my head but I was seriously questioning your compassion when I read your dismissal of the Sandy Hook incident. What further disturbed me were links that lead to some really extreme nutjobs that state they should have been allowed to view the dead bodies of the children.

I do not shy away from death, generally, but that kind of stuff just sickens me when I think about all the pain it causes people. You might think your opinion here is harmless and no one will see it but what if, by chance, a parent or family member of a dead child sees your comment and it causes them pain. It doesn't even have to be specific to Sandy Hook. Your words and beliefs carry energy and that energy ripples out and affects others. It affected me. It seemed a very calloused attitude which actually kind of surprised me because I would have thought that your faith would have been one reason that you would have looked at Kim's links and thought for one moment, "I might be following a "dark" path here" just by immersing yourself in the same energy that some very mean-spirited and down right hateful people are propagating.

I just wanted to say how your post affected me and Kim (probably others who won't say anything). The flat earth thing was silly in comparison, to me and the Sandy Hook thing made me see how silly it would be to try and convince you that the earth is not flat. It would be a huge waste of time because you seem very set in your ways in relation to this and closed off to any other ideas.

Anyway Grandmother Spider still loves you and you are still connected to the whole of her creation.

[marooned]

eliza, if you really want to "know the truth" and understand this stuff i would recommend taking some community college classes. as cpig kind of mentioned, just reading arguments on the internet doesn't seem very productive to this end especially since i think you probably need a better understanding of math and physics. there are things you could do to "find the truth" but i doubt you can accomplish them all from your computer or without help (and by help, i don't mean from someone with an agenda). if you are truly open to other points of view, you should be able to take some classes to bump up your comprehension and consider what you are taught in them before casting judgment.

regardless of "the truth" these flat earth people are on the crazy end of the spectrum... they are a minority and they usually have strong reasons for not wanting to believe in a spheroid earth. even if they were somehow "right" (guffaws), the majority of them wouldn't be able to teach you because they are also nuts (or hopelessly misguided).