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Thread: Article: Gamma Quadra: The Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya

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    Default Article: Gamma Quadra: Complex of Tied Hands by Stratiyevskaya


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    Hi, silke.
    Great job. Thanks for translating this.

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    There is nothing more scary and dangerous for another person (particularly a conflictor) than to put Gamma Quadra types in conditions of involuntary unemployment and at the same time accuse them of being inadequate and insolvent, call them lazy or losers, and blame them for failing to constructively apply themselves. For these kinds of offenses and ridicule Gamma Quadra types feel themselves in full right to spontaneously avenge themselves and make short work out of their abuser. Gamma Quadra types (especially, sensing ones, SEE and ESI) immediately lose control of themselves and will do anything to destroy their tormentor morally and physically. (Such harassment Gamma types won't forgive to anyone!). Gamma Quadra will put to use all of their resources, all the material at hand (up to sharp or cutting objects), but won't let the offender get away unpunished. The desire to put one's fists to use and beat the tormentor to death (or even tear him apart with his bare hands) at such times is overwhelming; the attack may be very brutal and fast.
    I wish I could give this 2000 thumbs up. The article makes me think of that forgiveness thread we had awhile back. I'm not one who forgives major trespasses easily, and I think this section of the article hit on the reason why very succinctly. I haven't had that experience with the specific case of unemployment, but the mindset certainly spills over into other incidents that operate in a similar fashion. I'm tempted to bring up a specific case that happened about 5 or 6 years ago that has the hallmarks of this,and my unfortunate reaction to it that hurt a lot more people than just the intended target. I had to learn some painful lessons from that experience. But I did get revenge, so I feel better, rofl. I've definitely seen that attitude come out in ESIs as well. Sometimes I wonder if I could be an ESI, although I doubt it.

    Emotional pressure in Gamma Quadra is considered to be the most cruel form of psychological terror... Gamma types allow him to release his "hot steam", to overflow with emotion, while calmly watching him, studying his reactions, looking at him as if a beast rushing about its cage, waiting until their partner becomes exhausted, having their fill talking, and becomes calm. Only then, once the storm has passed, quietly attends to his business - begins acting and doing something out of his own will, not particularly considering the wishes of his partner.
    That's scarily accurate. That quiet, let themselves talk and emote themselves to death and just observe them, and then going and doing something else that seems irrelevant somehow... this is the most fascinating and accurate article I've read in a long time.

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    Hmmm I actually relate to some of the stuff described here and not so much with the alpha one. I recently got really pissed off when someone in my family kept pestering me about not having a job even though I'm trying to get one. I also really hate it when others supervise and criticize my work and having to be a slave. But then again I don't care much about success in business so IDK.

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    This article is... scarily accurate. I get it on an almost instinctual level. I do constantly feel that the world is binding me, restraining me from doing what must be done, what should be done. To be accused of being a mooch and an icompetent lazy oaf? Oh no, that I cannot let slide. The system is arranged against me, human nature is awful, and you're a moron. Insist this negative assessment of me is so and we'll have a fight on our hands and I have the chair leg of Truth within my grasp. Do not offend the chair leg of Truth. It is wise and terrible. The part about ILI inviting the intimate partner to destroy their "armor" as well, I sympathize with it so hard it hurts. The only type of woman I'd feel "worthy" of me (and thus marry) is one that can accomplish that task, the others would be nice, but if only one could but shatter the shields and embrace me for who I really am I'd cry tears of joy and swear eternal loyalty to them in an instant.

    Still feeling her bias against LIE types though, she obviously encountered one with a Dismissive-Avoidant attachment style and now thinks they're all like that. They're not, my mirror is very similar to me, just way more extroverted. Deep down he's still a nice guy (if he has a stable-secure attachment style), you just need to work through his tests. He only does it out of love, only in his case it's proving to himself that he's truly the one worthy of being on the business end of being loved. For me, well, it's more about proving to myself that the love is reciprocated. Nobody wants to be in a "one-way" relationship after all.

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    What does she have against LIEs? How is this even professional work?

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    some parts mind blowing but not professional due to the bias against LIE probably just because of personal negative experience..

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    @Bertrand loves personal bias, that's why he loves her stuff so much.

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    I think it's funny that people are talking about LIE bias when the LIE traits (at least as described in the checklist) made me happy about the idea of them being my dual However I'm probably missing some things because I'd put cayenne in my eyeballs before reading this entire thing.

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    I don't feel like shes knocking LIE at all and wish she gave every type that treatment. I feel like she's obviously favoring LIE by going into such detail

    she approaches typology a lot like enneagram which is to say she proceeds from the negative, but once you accept that you can see the value in it without being offended because of ostensibly "negative" (as in hateful) attitudes (it is not "personal" but she has obviously devoted more time and thought to LIE). rather, the entire approach is useful and novel and demonstrates care for precisely that reason

    no one has to like strat, but it helps if you try to understand her

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    I think it's funny that people are talking about LIE bias when the LIE traits (at least as described in the checklist) made me happy about the idea of them being my dual However I'm probably missing some things because I'd put cayenne in my eyeballs before reading this entire thing.
    The checklist is far too optimistic and positively biased, afterwards there´s some specific rants which seem to refer to specific people (gambling and drinking all day, cheating etc etc, then chapter 8 likely about some failed family business), but perhaps russians have a slightly different (more dramatic?) writing style.

    Strats admits herself:

    After the collapse of the Soviet Union, after the "swashbuckling" 90s swept the country with a wave of unbridled and the most violent crime, the situation with TIM LIE was catastrophic, and for his dual moralist Dreiser – it was intolerable, unacceptable, and most importantly - hopeless: there was no choice or escape.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I do have a problem with the message this article seems to be getting across. Basically, if you don't succeed, and you're gamma, blame others.

    This paragraph:

    There is nothing more dangerous and scary for another person (particularly a conflictor) than to put Gamma Quadra types in conditions of involuntary unemployment and at the same time accuse them of being inadequate and insolvent, call them idlers and losers, blame them for failing to constructively apply themselves.
    First of all, I don't know what she could be referring to with "putting someone in a situation of voluntary unemployment", she gives no example of what she means (typical of the whole article btw). Women who's husbands don't allow them to work seems to be the only example I can think of, but even so, this is becoming increasingly rare even in highly traditional societies. Anyways, what really bothers me is this.

    For these kind of offense Gamma Quadra feel themselves in full right to spontaneously avenge themselves and make short work out of their abuser. Gamma Quadra types (especially, sensing ones, SEE and ESI) immediately lose control over themselves and will undertake anything to destroy their tormentor both morally and physically. (Such abuse Gamma types won't forgive to anyone!) Gamma Quadra will put to use all of their resources, all the materials at hand (up to sharp or cutting objects), but won't let the offender get away unpunished. The desire to put one's fists to use and beat the tormentor to death (or even tear him apart with bare hands) in such moments is overwhelming, thus the attack may be very brutal and fast.
    Is she saying it's ok to act this way? That gammas are justified in acting this way? Yes, because gammas can't handle anyone not recognizing their achievements and thus have the right to beat anyone who doesn't to a pulp! They're such victims that they should be entitled to such outbursts, and remember, it is because of others' criticism towards you that you are not succeeding, not because of anything you didn't do! I see the light now, why didn't anyone tell me this before! Lol...

    Also, more blaming LIE for everything that goes wrong in the duality. Not sure what vendetta she has against this type. But it's probably not her fault her relations with LIE failed, who needs accountability?

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    @Avebury IMO (because I didn't read the article) involuntary unemployment means you can't find a job. I think of high unemployment rates in economic downturns and depressed cities followed by riots and looting. Which is probably not what she had in mind, but who knows, maybe it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    This article is... scarily accurate. I get it on an almost instinctual level. I do constantly feel that the world is binding me, restraining me from doing what must be done, what should be done.
    I have this feeling too. What does it prove about the world around us though? I mean I "get it" on an instinctual level, I just can't accept that if I fail, it is the fault of others. It seems like a cop-out.


    The system is arranged against me
    Unless you live in a system which represses free economic activity (communism, cronyism) I don't feel that it is the fault of the system.

    Perhaps a better question: how is the system arranged against you? What system do you live under, and is there something you can do anyways?

    Still feeling her bias against LIE types though, she obviously encountered one with a Dismissive-Avoidant attachment style and now thinks they're all like that. They're not, my mirror is very similar to me, just way more extroverted. Deep down he's still a nice guy (if he has a stable-secure attachment style), you just need to work through his tests. He only does it out of love, only in his case it's proving to himself that he's truly the one worthy of being on the business end of being loved. For me, well, it's more about proving to myself that the love is reciprocated. Nobody wants to be in a "one-way" relationship after all.
    I want the love to be reciprocated in a relationship, I don't want to be in a "one-way" relationship either.

    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    @Avebury IMO (because I didn't read the article) involuntary unemployment means you can't find a job. I think of high unemployment rates in economic downturns and depressed cities followed by riots and looting. Which is probably not what she had in mind, but who knows, maybe it is.
    Maybe. But are these kinds of problems easy to pin on someone though? When it comes to economics, different economic schools of thought will accuse one another's policies of creating economic crises and offer their own as a solution. Keynes accuse the derugulation of markets of having caused the Great Depression, and prescribed economic regulations (as per FDR) to fix the problem, whereas Milton Friedman said that FDR's policies made matters worse...how to know who is right? Who to blame? What can we change anyways, even if knew who was to blame?

    In capitalism, you are responsible for your own failures, and your own successes, in communism you don't get credit for your achievements and when you fail, make sure you have a scapegoat! This attitude under communism leads to some bitter people, if I succeed, some else gets the credit. Which is why many athletes and artists fled the USSR. People who don't fullfill their ambitions need someone else to blame, this is just our psychology. I suspect this blaming attitude is a relic of communism, not a reference to any specific situation. Btw, I am not shitting on people who used to live under communist regimes, or who still do, they are mostly victims of their system. But the scapegoating attitude makes little sense under Strat's current conditions (though one could argue whether Russia is authentically capitalist, it is considered a very unfree economy).

    Edit: it has been noted communism has full employment. This is because everyone is forced to work. Not because there are incentives to work or a job to do. There is an old story about Milton Friedmand in some communist regime, maybe China idr. He saw men digging with shovels, and asked the government bureaucrat who was watching the work, why those men were digging with shovels and not with the latest equipment. The bureaucrat said "Mr. Friedman, you do no understand, our goal is to create work, not to build a tunnel". "If it's work you want", Milton said, "you should have them digging with spoons!" Point being that some level of unemployemnt is normal in capitalism, perhaps Strat regrets this fact, and is talking about frustration with the system and blaming it? Like, she liked her communism, because she worked, capitalism leads to some unemployment and she takes on the blame game attitude. Though I will concede that capitalism in Russia in the 90s did seem quite horrible, too.

    Just my take. Sorry that was too long. I'm having a very hard time expressing my thoughts on this.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 08-08-2018 at 07:32 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I have this feeling too. What does it prove about the world around us though? I mean I "get it" on an instinctual level, I just can't accept that if I fail, it is the fault of others. It seems like a cop-out.
    A great attitude. Truly, ya just proved to me why duality is a thing and gave me an ounce of hope in humanity. Key point is to not take it all upon yourself. The prophesy isn't 100 percent accurate. Murphy's law always applies. The key thing to remember is that you did all you logically could given your situation.

    Well... almost. I mean, there is that incompetent fucker in upper management that your annoying yet scarily competent "buddy" could better fill if it wasn't for the troublesome fact that incompetent asshat was still breathing I just gotta... *ahem* Tied hands folks, tied hands.

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    all that inflated sense of duty but apparently not killing didn't make it on the list. its like I don't understand from where this sense of responsibility comes from, or what its worth, when it views murder and therefore other people as mere inconvenience. it sounds like basic tribalism. you and your buddy are free to start your own whatever if management is so incompetent. the bottom line is responsibility confers status in time that underlings rarely understand because they look at it only from the point of view from below. its like every soldier that ever whined about being required to do something they didn't see the point of, because they didn't have access to the entire story, and they don't get access to it because if they did they'd be in charge, since the roles are divied up precisely because you can't lead and sweep floors at the same time. there's simply not enough time. the tied hands comes in because one isn't allowed to decide for oneself what is best in terms of precisely what there is or is not time for, and the urge for violence comes in to defend that right. but make no mistake its not out of a developed sense of responsibility, its out of developed egoism. when there's enough ego to go around something does in fact decide whos in charge and its force, so one can't complain too much about being subordinated in such a rough way, since one's desire to not cooperate is precisely what makes such subordination necessary. in other words, every time you think you can make things better you either must put up or shut up and anything less is just fomenting resentment and its resentment that is both cause and effect of unethical behavior. suddenly when you realize that is the sense of responsibility one must develop murder is no longer a fantasy and one actually has some semblance of a real ethical existence. of course, under those terms, it starts with just doing your job and doesn't skip to murder except when actually justified. when one can't outcompete force in a particular domain the solution is to go fill a gap with your ego somewhere else. if you won't seek out new opportunities or defend yourself when it matters, of course its going to lead to frustration, but it doesn't really originate in the environment so much as one's response to it. becoming murderous is only another form of suicide anyway. its the process of letting one's inner man disintegrate into nothing and then imposing the void on others because one lacks the courage to even implode properly
    Last edited by Bertrand; 08-09-2018 at 07:39 AM.

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    @Bertrand I'm willing to bet is one of your weaker functions. Ya ever wonder why Cassandra was "cursed" with clairvoyance? I mean, she could win a lotto at will when ya think about it. Who cares if nobody would ever believe her? She could just know the future and never fail to profit from it. Hell, she could even know when the one super hunky dude who could fulfill all her desires would walk into town, what exact words would entice him, and how exactly to get him to bend the knee and ask for her hand in marriage.

    Yet her situation was regarded as accursed by the ancients. I know why, so let's see if you can tell me what I already know. It's pretty damn significant. I mean hell, Frank Herbert got this one so let's see if you do as well!

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    I think my reaction above was too strong.

    I understand what this article is saying, it's about gammas needing to have their accomplishments realized in the real world and be recognized for it. "Tied hands" refers to being unable to act, especially professionally.

    I still have a problem with how she seems to excuse violent behavior as "normal" on the part of gamma SFs, though I could be misreading her. And it's clear she is mad at LIE, imo.

    Anyways, to get back to the point of "tied hands" I am still not sure what situation she could be describing. I live in a place with relatively high unemployment, and I do feel the system is responsible, since non-salarial costs of employees is high and firing someone can be hard, the incentive to hire people is low. The problem though, is not structural, but it has to do with people's fundamental values being wrong. People are fairly anti-capitalist where I live, and the pragmatic arguements in favor of economic reforms don't convince people since people's fundamental values consider individualism and self-interest to be bad. We have a government in this country trying to change the economic system, but unions go on strike whenever the slightest reform is proposed. In order to change the system you first have to get people to accept the change in a democracy, the change has to align with their values. So you have to change people's philosophy, before changing the system.

    Not sure what this has to do with the article, but I'm not sure what alot of the article is referring to anyways. If you're going to imply that gammas can't stand inaction, and yet are stuck in a situation of unemployment, it begs the question: what is causing the unemployemnt. You can't write an article like this without being specific, and I feel it's a veiled attack on something, but on what exactly, I can't identify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    Anyways, to get back to the point of "tied hands" I am still not sure what situation she could be describing. I live in a place with relatively high unemployment, and I do feel the system is responsible, since non-salarial costs of employees is high and firing someone can be hard, the incentive to hire people is low. The problem though, is not structural, but it has to do with people's fundamental values being wrong. People are fairly anti-capitalist where I live, and the pragmatic arguements in favor of economic reforms don't convince people since people's fundamental values consider individualism and self-interest to be bad. We have a government in this country trying to change the economic system, but unions go on strike whenever the slightest reform is proposed. In order to change the system you first have to get people to accept the change in a democracy, the change has to align with their values. So you have to change people's philosophy, before changing the system.
    It's nice to see some other people who are pro-capitalist around here. Or at least, not anti-capitalist, judging by this post.

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    @Xaiviay Yes I am pro-capitalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I think my reaction above was too strong.

    I understand what this article is saying, it's about gammas needing to have their accomplishments realized in the real world and be recognized for it. "Tied hands" refers to being unable to act, especially professionally.

    I still have a problem with how she seems to excuse violent behavior as "normal" on the part of gamma SFs, though I could be misreading her. And it's clear she is mad at LIE, imo.

    Anyways, to get back to the point of "tied hands" I am still not sure what situation she could be describing. I live in a place with relatively high unemployment, and I do feel the system is responsible, since non-salarial costs of employees is high and firing someone can be hard, the incentive to hire people is low. The problem though, is not structural, but it has to do with people's fundamental values being wrong. People are fairly anti-capitalist where I live, and the pragmatic arguements in favor of economic reforms don't convince people since people's fundamental values consider individualism and self-interest to be bad. We have a government in this country trying to change the economic system, but unions go on strike whenever the slightest reform is proposed. In order to change the system you first have to get people to accept the change in a democracy, the change has to align with their values. So you have to change people's philosophy, before changing the system.

    Not sure what this has to do with the article, but I'm not sure what alot of the article is referring to anyways. If you're going to imply that gammas can't stand inaction, and yet are stuck in a situation of unemployment, it begs the question: what is causing the unemployemnt. You can't write an article like this without being specific, and I feel it's a veiled attack on something, but on what exactly, I can't identify.
    The girl got scorned by a LIE, and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. It's true. I've seen it many a time. Sadly, it blocks her comprehension of what she otherwise has down. Just can't let go of that grudge, if only she could she'd land a major breakthrough...

    As for why Gamma's can't stand inaction, allow me to break it down. It's not inaction that causes the SAN checks (pardon my nerdious background and love of the fellow gamma who gave us the concept), it's the lack of apparently *meaningful* actions. I wouldn't recommend it to any random person, but once you learn about how Intelligence operations work and just how thorough they can get and how widespread and common they'd have to be in order to actually work as they must in order to so utterly control our current world, well, preventing strong types from going crazy is an act of will comparable to faith (i.e. if you haven't found God or something like that before you connected those mind shattering dots, you're gonna fail that check hard and probably suicide or go off and die for nothing).

    As for Capitalism, it's really the only way forward in my eyes. A full on absolutely blind Meritocracy is basically Gamma heaven. Though, we must admit, we see it as a heaven because we're pretty damn confident that if such a system were instituted, we'd end up at the top of it. Self interest is only human after all. Of course we favor a system that benefits us individually as well as collectively. The other quadras just need to be so honest with themselves. Our dream isn't wrong, it's just, well, ours. Thus, it favors us. No need to get mad about that fact...

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    the dimensions encompassed by merit include more than gamma though. in that sense, we already live in an absolutely blind meritocracy and its called the universe as it stands. the socion turns and gamma is actually the shortest lived quadra at the forefront of the world stage because of how quickly it exhausts itself. it doesn't really matter though its not about being on "top" as a collective since one can easily be on top of a shit pile. if one doesn't raise everyone up or find a sense of personal meaning, anything else is just hollow inflation. a good example of gammas raising everyone and burning out rather quickly was the Renaissance

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    Quote Originally Posted by End View Post
    As for Capitalism, it's really the only way forward in my eyes. A full on absolutely blind Meritocracy is basically Gamma heaven. Though, we must admit, we see it as a heaven because we're pretty damn confident that if such a system were instituted, we'd end up at the top of it. Self interest is only human after all. Of course we favor a system that benefits us individually as well as collectively. The other quadras just need to be so honest with themselves. Our dream isn't wrong, it's just, well, ours. Thus, it favors us. No need to get mad about that fact...
    Imo, capitalism raises up everyone. Judging by the economies that had the least amount of state intervention, the standard of living raises most quickly for pretty much all groups of people when the government doesn't interfere. This includes 'minorities' like women and other racial groups, and even the poorest classes.

    I think of it like this: Alpha Quadra does best on a pretty relaxed lifestyle that allows the freedom and resources to pursue innovation and beauty - then they produce something that can be employed on a large scale to benefit the greater economy - Beta Quadra will thrive on the continuation and promotion of some of these inventions - Gamma Quadra will be the check that corrects the problems and any destructive features in these inventions - lastly the Delta Quadra refines them, bringing them to their fullest potential....which then adds another product that allows the Alpha Quadra more freedom and comfort to invent something even more beneficial (and the cycle continues).

    If Socionics is accurate, then society already has built-in regulation systems. The government tends to just impose artificial values and restraints on human productivity that don't help anyone in the long run - except special interest groups that fund the election of politicians that will do what they want...

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    I don't see capitalism as a sort of heaven, but more as a meaningless pursuit of money as a mean of power. I don't know what to do with either money or the "power" it gives, those seem artificial and weird at best.
    It's a matter of perspective even among same quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crAck View Post
    End #1 weird psycho of 16t
    I aim to please in all endeavors, even in psychosis .

    Quote Originally Posted by Xaiviay View Post
    Imo, capitalism raises up everyone. Judging by the economies that had the least amount of state intervention, the standard of living raises most quickly for pretty much all groups of people when the government doesn't interfere. This includes 'minorities' like women and other racial groups, and even the poorest classes.

    I think of it like this: Alpha Quadra does best on a pretty relaxed lifestyle that allows the freedom and resources to pursue innovation and beauty - then they produce something that can be employed on a large scale to benefit the greater economy - Beta Quadra will thrive on the continuation and promotion of some of these inventions - Gamma Quadra will be the check that corrects the problems and any destructive features in these inventions - lastly the Delta Quadra refines them, bringing them to their fullest potential....which then adds another product that allows the Alpha Quadra more freedom and comfort to invent something even more beneficial (and the cycle continues).

    If Socionics is accurate, then society already has built-in regulation systems. The government tends to just impose artificial values and restraints on human productivity that don't help anyone in the long run - except special interest groups that fund the election of politicians that will do what they want...
    A pretty interesting theory. Kinda works out too. I do hope we're all in a virtuous feedback loop like you suggest we are, but we could just as easily be trapped in a negative one like I fear we are. The current system sure as shit ain't capitalistic. Well, it is for those at the very top. But for us plebes at the bottom? Hahaha, we're their little bitches and they never fail to miss an opportunity to remind us of that with the utmost of sadistic glee.

    That hubris will backfire on them eventually, and it'll probably be within our lifetimes to boot, but it still sucks to see them do it today and get away with it on a constant basis. Cosmic justice can't come fast enough for these Gnostic Luciferian pedos.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernRose View Post
    I don't see capitalism as a sort of heaven, but more as a meaningless pursuit of money as a mean of power. I don't know what to do with either money or the "power" it gives, those seem artificial and weird at best.
    It's a matter of perspective even among same quadra.
    Well, if you're gonna be an atheist or a strict materialist you're right. Pursuing money and power for the sake of money and power isn't good in any way. If that pursuit of money/power was just a single part of a greater whole (e.g. wanting to provide meaningful and rewarding work for people within a given community) then it isn't so bad after all. I mean, if money and power is just the happy side effect of being a good and decent businessman/woman then please, by all means, make greater profits and get as powerful as ya can. Equality of opportunity>equality of outcome.

    I mean, if ya want to imagine hell from a secular perspective, imagine a world where the most beautiful, caring, loving, and all around good people get treated the same as the most ugly, vile, detestable, backstabbing evil motherfuckers you could ever imagine. Sound awesome? Because that's what equality of outcome means. Still gonna aim for that? Dear lord I hope not.

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    does anyone actually argue for equality of outcome

    humorously, the easiest way to achieve that would just be to end all life, and, in any case, either an afterlife exists or we all get there (dead) anyway. therefore equality of outcome is an inevitability and hardly needs to be sought

    the quickest way to rush to an equal outcome is just to kill oneself

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    @End
    Hmm... was the equality speech for me? Because I didn't write a single word about it.
    I'll try again :
    *I* do not want money and the power that comes with it. Others are free to pursue whatever they want.
    I'm gamma too, that's why I bothered writing this comment.

    Equality is probably the stupidest concept I ever heard of... beside in math.

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    @NorthernRose I'd like to address your statement describing capitalism as a meaningless pursuit of money as a means of power. If that were the case, then I wouldn't be supportive of capitalism, either D:

    If you're interested, this guys makes short (often humorous) podcasts about free-market economics and libertarian philosophy. Here's the link to where I'm quoting him: https://tomwoods.com/another-anti-ca...ore-spiritual/
    An “unrestrained capitalist system” simply means: exchanges must be voluntarily agreed to by both parties.

    It means nothing more than this.


    It does not mean: accumulate for its own sake. It does not mean: devote your life to chasing after the latest gadgets. It does mean: do not use other people as means to your ends.


    The wealth that capitalism has created for everyone — yes, everyone: the standard of living of the poorest in market societies has exploded over the past 200 years — is precisely what liberates people to pursue non-materialist goals.


    When you’re one bad harvest away from starvation, you’re not really in the mood to join a book club, or take up an interest in Bach’s cantatas, or study the Impressionists. But when your basic needs are taken care of, as they overwhelmingly are under capitalism (again, the statistics are everywhere), you are liberated to pursue the higher things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernRose View Post
    @End
    Hmm... was the equality speech for me? Because I didn't write a single word about it.
    I'll try again :
    *I* do not want money and the power that comes with it. Others are free to pursue whatever they want.
    I'm gamma too, that's why I bothered writing this comment.

    Equality is probably the stupidest concept I ever heard of... beside in math.
    Equality only exists in the realms of math and the hardest of sciences. Glad to see someone else gets that fact! Sadly, rest of the world seems intent on learning that in the hardest way possible. And while you say you don't want money, I doubt you don't want to improve the lives of others. You can easily do that... if you have fat stacks of cash just laying around waiting to be spent by your benevolent self in the ways you saw fit.

    Power is basically the same. If you have a huge army at your command that's basically the same as having a million employees/billions of dollars at your disposal with nothing to do and no strings attached. All that remains then is a task to commit the resources to. Can't tell me you'd love nothing more than to be in such a wonderful position. I mean hell, I'd love to have either a million soldiers or billions to blow on any pet project of mine and let me tell ya. By the time I was done spending it all, the world would be a much better place .

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    @End
    Well, of course I have had those daydream of how I could make life better with the right means, yet they fell flat after a while.
    It would be easy to raise the living conditions of the population, but making their life truly better in the more profound sense is not something we can do with stuff, money, or man power.
    The daydreams grew bittersweet with this.

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    I've never really liked the quadra complex stuff. It seems rather detailed and picturesque, which makes it plausible and believable, but it puts everything in the context of "what you must do to survive" and supposes competitive nature outweighs cooperative nature. As such, it's biased by concerns of social status.

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    that's true, but its narrative, it follows more the rules of drama than the rules of science, despite framing itself as a survival of fittest struggle, its sort of only superficially so. if you keep that in mind one can "get the point" without thinking its saying more than it really is. its sort of lightweight, but still very insightful, especially if you view it as a glimpse into how a lot of people do in fact think, since most people frame their own world, not scientifically or logically per se, but in these sort of terms. for them they're locked into precisely this sort of non-technical "survival of the fittest"

    strat does seem to have a hardon for trying to make her stuff a little more complex and scientific sounding than it really is, but if you read it as pure narrative insight into certain frames of mind its pretty insightful I think. maybe all that socionics jargon serve as like guideposts for the NTs trying to keep up or something. its like science in star trek or something. strat writes almost science fiction tier stories with socionics as the underlying tech, but the stories are nonetheless very true in the same way science fiction can tell us about our current moral situation

    it sort of poses the question instead of warp drive or whatever, "what if socionics were real--what would that look like?" it sounds pejorative to call socionics fantasy, but it is. right now its hypothetical until it can be truly verified, but that doesn't change the fact it may nevertheless be true and thus the gamble pays off so to speak. almost all psychological novels are in some sense precisely this kind of fiction, yet they are highly celebrated for their insight. in essence it is literature not science
    Last edited by Bertrand; 09-06-2018 at 04:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    that's true, but its narrative, it follows more the rules of drama than the rules of science, despite framing itself as a survival of fittest struggle, its sort of only superficially so. if you keep that in mind one can "get the point" without thinking its saying more than it really is. its sort of lightweight, but still very insightful, especially if you view it as a glimpse into how a lot of people do in fact think, since most people frame their own world, not scientifically or logically per se, but in these sort of terms. for them they're locked into precisely this sort of non-technical "survival of the fittest"

    strat does seem to have a hardon for trying to make her stuff a little more complex and scientific sounding than it really is, but if you read it as pure narrative insight into certain frames of mind its pretty insightful I think. maybe all that socionics jargon serve as like guideposts for the NTs trying to keep up or something. its like science in star trek or something. strat writes almost science fiction tier stories with socionics as the underlying tech, but the stories are nonetheless very true in the same way science fiction can tell us about our current moral situation

    it sort of poses the question instead of warp drive or whatever, "what if socionics were real--what would that look like?" it sounds pejorative to call socionics fantasy, but it is. right now its hypothetical until it can be truly verified, but that doesn't change the fact it may nevertheless be true and thus the gamble pays off so to speak. almost all psychological novels are in some sense precisely this kind of fiction, yet they are highly celebrated for their insight. in essence it is literature not science
    I think the danger though is that people see it the way you say it shouldn't be seen. The way it's framed doesn't allow for your interpretation of it. "This is how it is and that's it" is the tone of the articles.

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    I think the safety mechanism is sort of built in though, because I accept it in its proper context and basically everyone else rejects it on various grounds. its like where are the people being suckered... this is why i think there's too much alarmism in general over anything that isn't rigidly positivistic or carrying a disclaimer announcing it as baseless

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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernRose View Post
    @End
    Well, of course I have had those daydream of how I could make life better with the right means, yet they fell flat after a while.
    It would be easy to raise the living conditions of the population, but making their life truly better in the more profound sense is not something we can do with stuff, money, or man power.
    The daydreams grew bittersweet with this.
    It is not bittersweet for me. It is pure frustration. I *could* make it happen if I had the resources and I know it for a fact! The majority of mankind is laughably easy to manipulate. I mean fuck, let's spell this out for you! My mom is subjected to my worldview constantly. Recently, she showed me a J.C. Penny ad. She told me not to laugh or get mad and told me there was an obvious ****** on the page she showed me. The one I pointed to shocked her. She practically swore to God on the spot that that one was a girl.

    Then I pointed to the one she was thinking of without a prompt. I told her that was the obvious one, meant to catch your eye so you'd think you were ever so smart and alert/woke. The one I pointed to was the sly move, that one had a manjaw beyond the genetics of any "woman" but was otherwise feminine. That's masterful propaganda folks. Only those skilled in the art of it could pull it off right. She then finally put the final piece of the puzzle together. ALL the girls on that page were below average at best and ugly in point of fact. Only alcohol could ever hope to make any of those "models" pretty in any sane man's eyes.

    The end goal? Well, it's obvious if you know who we collectively suffer under. Inversion. It's the end goal of any Satanic elite. Make ugliness the new beautiful. Make stupidity the new intelligence. Make evil the new good...

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