I don't get dual relationships (duality)

[Sol]

Wow @Sol, your trances are pretty complex. Idk if I ever had one that really predicted anything lol

I meant a prey mb used for anything, including intentional geting of info and time predictions. As general possibility, not my experience. I did not used this for predictions still, mb as related to Ni is not among my prefered interests.
I had several times a feeling of unification, but there I asked about events or solving of tasks - it worked then. Also had it in common prey without concrete asking. The 2nd variant mb better as your unconsciousness may see more general situation and help you in what is more important. In Mahometanism to ask about concrete thing is not endorsed, for example.

I remember a single case when I got a muddy vision about possible future, but it was not in a prey. I worked by an imagination in a trance, though a prey could be used before to help enter in the needed state. During that accidentally I've got a vision. I tried to influence on IEI girl, to remove some things to allow her to make decisions more by her own. As she has Ni as base function this could to have such effect on me, as to influence on other human you join your mind with his one. I did not know about Jung types and her type, that she has base Ni to which relates time feeling - I was not preconvinced about that.

I met somewhere, Nostradamus used religious technics to get a feeling of unification with God for his predictions. Judaism and his mystic branches being monotheism should to know about this mind state.
I do not exclude that other religions or mystic studies (or atheistic technics which may suppose "just an imagination to deal with the mind") may to have the similar by the efficiency states inspired by own traditions and other technics. What a human feels in this state mb rather secondary and surface to what happens. If you believe in "magic elf" which may to help you, and then concentrate with the ask on elf's image - mb you may get the same. I did not tried. I understand that human mind uses models to deal with the reality and hence what human perceives is secondary and such mb not obligate completely or in parts which look as important.

The simplisitc approach to religion is to simplify them to rituals. While religions itself often say that people "know nothing" There is no reason behind what rituals do, rituals are not the religion itself and what we think about religion is not that. We may do something to get something. It's a black box. We see a surface of that box, may know what to give to one end and what then to expect from other end. Not more. When someone absolutize religions - it's a simplification, to remove doubts and so easier to use known black boxes, this helps to use them - but it's not the Truth, it's models. When children study something they should not doubt in a teacher to accept his knowledge easier - it's the same. But teacher is not absolute and the concrete models are not absolute. There could be many forgotten religions or studies with similar efficiency in the past and may appear in the future. Monotheism itself has several branches with significant differences in rituals and stories and traditions near it - but it's same in its essence - people prey to something similar and may get the similar results. Those people may make even wars to argue for some traditions and stories are the only regiligious Truth, but that wars have a minor relation to the religion - those are more political and other social competing.
Most probably you may be atheist and do the same and feel the same as "saints". You'll just use another black box and will be understanding that as a "black box" without adding of sacred understanding to that. Alike chemistry or electricity practice mb explained without any magic, but mb also with "elfs" [for kids] - with the same results.

[Lord Pixel]

@Myst I guess truth is in the middle, on one hand yes, in love, we need someone to accept us for what we are, on the other this need is accompanied by a desire to transcend ourself and our flaws. it's not that a socionic dual is bad, I was exaggerating for the sake of switching perspective, yet it's not the real requirement for a completeness of the self, which is the ultimate goal. we need someone that stimulates us to be complete -alone- so that in 2 we become sort of invincible, or smth like that.

we already contain a dual inside of us, the goal is to bring this inner reality into a shape, and a socionic dual could as well be detrimental to this self-betterment process.

I think the contrary. Sure the dual picks up the areas that are hard for you, but being around the dual also teaches you how to handle those parts of life, so that when they are not around and you have to pick up that load yourself you just emulate what they've done. A dual becomes a reference point for you subconscious to emulate, They essentially help refine your subconscious.

IME at least I notice even before I knew socionics that I emulate some dual behavior when put in a situation where I have to lead or be assertive, it is a more cardboard cut out/caricatured version but at least I have some way of showing up to those challenges, without that vague idea to emulate I'd probably be too overwhelmed to act.

[Myst]

(Note: I'm not talking about socionics duality. More in general than that about undeveloped areas of weaknesses/developed areas of strengths)

I think the contrary. Sure the dual picks up the areas that are hard for you, but being around the dual also teaches you how to handle those parts of life

Doesn't bc you just don't pay conscious attention unless you already know where you need to do that

As for subconsciously picking it up - you do pick up some but not all that much since they take care of mostof it themselves right?

so that when they are not around and you have to pick up that load yourself you just emulate what they've done.

Errrr noooo lol

A dual becomes a reference point for you subconscious to emulate, They essentially help refine your subconscious.

Only if you pay conscious attention painstakingly and even then it's not gonna be an emulation... it's gonna be just you learning more to handle it with your normal approaches, besides picking up some basics here and there

IME at least I notice even before I knew socionics that I emulate some dual behavior when put in a situation where I have to lead or be assertive, it is a more cardboard cut out/caricatured version but at least I have some way of showing up to those challenges, without that vague idea to emulate I'd probably be too overwhelmed to act.

It's good to have understanding of those things so you can navigate stuff better with your normal approaches but trying to emulate directly is going to backfire most likely


So all in all:

1. Know yourself, what you can do, and what you can't and shouldn't force yourself to try to do
2. Know other people too and interpersonal dynamics with them vs you, too
3. Do focus on the undeveloped parts a bit too to integrate that sort of stuff into your conscious understanding so you will do what you can do even better
4. For that a "dual" (not Socionics dual) works to show more on that stuff but only if you already try to develop your stuff consciously, also other approaches of self-development work, therapy, other approaches, just in general talking to / working with other people by being overall well integrated in society, etc.

[Lord Pixel]

(Note: I'm not talking about socionics duality. More in general than that about undeveloped areas of weaknesses/developed areas of strengths)




Doesn't bc you just don't pay conscious attention unless you already know where you need to do that

As for subconsciously picking it up - you do pick up some but not all that much since they take care of mostof it themselves right?




Errrr noooo lol




Only if you pay conscious attention painstakingly and even then it's not gonna be an emulation... it's gonna be just you learning more to handle it with your normal approaches, besides picking up some basics here and there




It's good to have understanding of those things so you can navigate stuff better with your normal approaches but trying to emulate directly is going to backfire most likely


So all in all:

1. Know yourself, what you can do, and what you can't and shouldn't force yourself to try to do
2. Know other people too and interpersonal dynamics with them vs you, too
3. Do focus on the undeveloped parts a bit too to integrate that sort of stuff into your conscious understanding so you will do what you can do even better
4. For that a "dual" (not Socionics dual) works to show more on that stuff but only if you already try to develop your stuff consciously, also other approaches of self-development work, therapy, other approaches, just in general talking to / working with other people by being overall well integrated in society, etc.

Nah, I think dual or anybody with strengths in your weaknesses give you examples on how to be better at those weak areas. I think a dual does it more in a way that you can actually understand and consciously practice, not to the same degree of course. And they operate in your suggestive areas after all.

To use the dimensions as an example, with PoLRs and suggestive you have a one dimensional view of it but other types help you get a more multi-dimensional view of those areas. But coming from other types it's harder to understand while from dual or activity it's easier to practice.

I'm only aware of the subconscious affect other types have had on me because I know typology, but even other types have subconsciously affected my use in the PoLR, suggestive and mobilizing, dual or not, but dual advice actually slides into my mind (and affirms subconscious thoughts) while other's advice have to get past more psychological obstacles. Most of the time when I use my weaker functions I'm copying some subconscious example when doing so even if it's not a real person and just a youtube video or TV. It's like my subconscious is scraping for any data I have that will benefit my situation without discrimination if it's real or fictional. And sometimes these emulations are so subconscious I don't know where they came from until I think about it.

I also notice that I copy habits of my SLI dad when dealing with similar situations, that could just be family or it could be IE influence that family just bought me tons of exposure to. In certain situations I've even emulated my SLE relative's behaviors, way before I knew socionics, because I was placed in a similar situation. And none of this was conscious. I could only notice looking back and feeling weird about it.

[Myst]

Nah, I think dual or anybody with strengths in your weaknesses give you examples on how to be better at those weak areas. I think a dual does it more in a way that you can actually understand and consciously practice, not to the same degree of course. And they operate in your suggestive areas after all.

To use the dimensions as an example, with PoLRs and suggestive you have a one dimensional view of it but other types help you get a more multi-dimensional view of those areas. But coming from other types it's harder to understand while from dual or activity it's easier to practice.

I'm only aware of the subconscious affect other types have had on me because I know typology, but even other types have subconsciously affected my use in the PoLR, suggestive and mobilizing, dual or not, but dual advice actually slides into my mind (and affirms subconscious thoughts) while other's advice have to get past more psychological obstacles. Most of the time when I use my weaker functions I'm copying some subconscious example when doing so even if it's not a real person and just a youtube video or TV. It's like my subconscious is scraping for any data I have that will benefit my situation without discrimination if it's real or fictional. And sometimes these emulations are so subconscious I don't know where they came from until I think about it.

I also notice that I copy habits of my SLI dad when dealing with similar situations, that could just be family or it could be IE influence that family just bought me tons of exposure to. In certain situations I've even emulated my SLE relative's behaviors, way before I knew socionics, because I was placed in a similar situation. And none of this was conscious. I could only notice looking back and feeling weird about it.

My point was it will only be conscious if you pay attention to self-growth and the like. And without paying attention it's not going to be enough

Anyway I never saw anyone whose advice would just slide into my mind heh (good thing), and my openness to stuff would depend on more factors anyway.... I agree family is a factor too, for example

Instead of just a dual, just be enough of a part of society and be in contact with enough people.

Not commenting on the rest, too much socionics-speak for me, sorry

[Lord Pixel]

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[sbbds]

Nah, I think dual or anybody with strengths in your weaknesses give you examples on how to be better at those weak areas. I think a dual does it more in a way that you can actually understand and consciously practice, not to the same degree of course. And they operate in your suggestive areas after all.

To use the dimensions as an example, with PoLRs and suggestive you have a one dimensional view of it but other types help you get a more multi-dimensional view of those areas. But coming from other types it's harder to understand while from dual or activity it's easier to practice.

I'm only aware of the subconscious affect other types have had on me because I know typology, but even other types have subconsciously affected my use in the PoLR, suggestive and mobilizing, dual or not, but dual advice actually slides into my mind (and affirms subconscious thoughts) while other's advice have to get past more psychological obstacles. Most of the time when I use my weaker functions I'm copying some subconscious example when doing so even if it's not a real person and just a youtube video or TV. It's like my subconscious is scraping for any data I have that will benefit my situation without discrimination if it's real or fictional. And sometimes these emulations are so subconscious I don't know where they came from until I think about it.

I also notice that I copy habits of my SLI dad when dealing with similar situations, that could just be family or it could be IE influence that family just bought me tons of exposure to. In certain situations I've even emulated my SLE relative's behaviors, way before I knew socionics, because I was placed in a similar situation. And none of this was conscious. I could only notice looking back and feeling weird about it.

You can't copy a dual beyond basics, because they're an inverted version of you. It's like asking an inverted triangle to flip back rightside up, and pretend to be a normal triangle, but in human form. Just imagine asking Singu to copy me, for instance. Or Aylen, or anyone else who you type IEI. Do you see that happening? Lol

It's going to be way easier to copy relations like activity because they match your strengths and image more.

[Lord Pixel]

You can't copy a dual beyond basics, because they're an inverted version of you. It's like asking an inverted triangle to flip back rightside up, and pretend to be a normal triangle, but in human form. Just imagine asking Singu to copy me, for instance. Or Aylen, or anyone else who you type IEI. Do you see that happening? Lol

It's going to be way easier to copy relations like activity because they match your strengths and image more.

I agree beyond basics it'll probably put way too much stress on your psyche, but yea your subconscious will pick up basics. And yea I agree it's easier to emulate activity because the gap between mobilizing and suggestive is more in reach.

And I can see it happening, probably a very immature and very shallow imitation of you though. But I still think we emulate duals or activity subconsciously, and don't even realize it until we look back.

[sbbds]

I agree beyond basics it'll probably put way too much stress on your psyche, but yea your subconscious will pick up basics. And yea I agree it's easier to emulate activity because the gap between mobilizing and suggestive is more in reach.

And I can see it happening, probably a very immature and very shallow imitation of you though. But I still think we emulate duals or activity subconsciously, and don't even realize it until we look back.

Sure. I was thinking about some of the other posts in here, and I was also thinking that it's also more likely in passive brief interactions with duals that more than giving you basics to emulate, you just benefit from little bits of their energy (needed weak IE info) being in your environment and supplied to you. Same with interactions with other non-duals, in small amounts.

[Myst]

@Sol Hm as far as I managed to decode the writing : p it was interesting. I'm not familiar with Mahometanism but I would have skepticism for sure about asking for concrete things lol.

I think I'm not able to be influenced emotionally by praying or by rituals or anything like that. Somehow I'm too sober/level-headed for this. I have had trance states spontaneously but definitely no complex wordings or predictions or anything like that

I had other mystical-ish states but those I see as just my mind's more mysterious parts esp. with regard to emotional stuff. It was half spontaneous and I kind of also self-suggested myself into these states, and I personally just see it as me figuring out emotional and mental stuff for myself. I'm not a total atheist though, I'm not trying to explain it in an absolute way by declaring that it's just my mind. It probably is, but it could be actually "more" than just my mind (something transcendent outside me lol), I'm not totally excluding that bc we don't even know what this world really is.

I did not understand the last 3 sentences about atheism/saints/elfs for kids.

[Sol]

I would have skepticism for sure about asking for concrete things

It works 2-4 hours of concentrated prey to God image with its traits as said above and mb you'll get it. The head may feel some pain. Also helps to ask about the same everyday for about a month or longer. Step by step you'll get something interesting, I'm sure. A low possible positive events which relate to what you are asking for. I remember 3 cases, at least. I asked and got on the next day. 2 times it was to meet a human I wanted to see. Mb it activated unconsciouse telepathic abbilities to influence and interact with people, mb more. The trances which you get during preys study you to use the imagination as a way to get something. Probably anything what you may imagine may become with more chance after that practices. Religions is one of approaches to that.
It may work with humans and their behavior definetely. If you'll ask alike "Make this 1 kg stone as 1 kg of gold" - I rather doubt you'll get it. But a chance you'll accidentally will get a serious income, as you wanted alike.

> I think I'm not able to be influenced emotionally by praying or by rituals or anything like that.

You may try to influence on people, - to inspire some emotional states in them. After some time mb it will work. I suppose all people can this, - to use telepathic abbility consciously.
I have a familiar woman. She had kind of depression or asthenia. I tried to fix that. Did several askings for her to feel better. She knew nothing what I do. After some time I've asked her. She said about emotional improvements in recent time. The effect lasted not for long.

> Somehow I'm too sober/level-headed for this. I have had trance states spontaneously but definitely no complex wordings or predictions or anything like that

Predictions as visions should be easier for N types, base Ni especially. They dream all day long, anyway. Some usefulness could to be, at least. About a weather tomorrow. There are schools about prediction technics. Some of them may use deeper trances with religious preying, alike exist in Judaism.

> I'm not a total atheist though, I'm not trying to explain it in an absolute way by declaring that it's just my mind.

mind operates by own models. in this sense - it's never the reality as it is. if it's useful - we may trust to it. is it real? no one knows what is real. the science have troubles to describe some things they notice - they do not fit to previous models, so they develop and check new models regularly. the same is with anything in our mind

it's never "just your mind" - as it exists in objective reality which influences on it. but it's never the true reality what we see and think. the reality is always unpredictable to some degree

> I did not understand the last 3 sentences about atheism/saints/elfs for kids.

The general sense is that religions and other esoteric explanations are only models. They may contain not obligate parts to do something. Also some models are simpler, but may be enough to be useful.

[Myst]

It works 2-4 hours of concentrated prey to God image with its traits as said above and mb you'll get it. The head may feel some pain. Also helps to ask about the same everyday for about a month or longer. Step by step you'll get something interesting, I'm sure. A low possible positive events which relate to what you are asking for. I remember 3 cases, at least. I asked and got on the next day. 2 times it was to meet a human I wanted to see. Mb it activated unconsciouse telepathic abbilities to influence and interact with people, mb more. The trances which you get during preys study you to use the imagination as a way to get something. Probably anything what you may imagine may become with more chance after that practices. Religions is one of approaches to that.
It may work with humans and their behavior definetely. If you'll ask alike "Make this 1 kg stone as 1 kg of gold" - I rather doubt you'll get it. But a chance you'll accidentally will get a serious income, as you wanted alike.

Like I said I'm too sober for this to work for me

I suspect these practices have to elicit some mind state and emotional state changes for them to work. That's why I'm saying I'm too sober for it

You may try to influence on people, - to inspire some emotional states in them. After some time mb it will work. I suppose all people can this, - to use telepathic abbility consciously.
I have a familiar woman. She had kind of depression or asthenia. I tried to fix that. Did several askings for her to feel better. She knew nothing what I do. After some time I've asked her. She said about emotional improvements in recent time. The effect lasted not for long.

Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others

it's never "just your mind" - as it exists in objective reality which influences on it. but it's never the true reality what we see and think. the reality is always unpredictable to some degree

That's fine as long as our perception does usually align enough with objective reality

The general sense is that religions and other esoteric explanations are only models. They may contain not obligate parts to do something. Also some models are simpler, but may be enough to be useful.

Right that makes sense. I sometimes do try to translate some ideas to my own more technical approaches. It's fun translating. (Not to do the practices, just simply to interpret the models.)

[Sol]

I'm too sober for this to work for me

With more practice and efforts you and mb any human should be able to use your unconsciouse abbilities by the decribed imagination approach too. For someones this may be easier, especially for having N types. On my experience the approach may to work at least for what mb related to the telepathy. What I saw is hard to relate to accidental.
This technique is rather ancient and popular. What is seen at how spreaded are monotheistic religions and their history. Mb religions in general as they have a common principle to work with the imagination. And other mystic practices.
Also you may stay sober, there was nothing to suppose to be drunk is obligate. I recommend to not be under substances.

> Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others

Emotions of T types are worse seen by their consciousness. In a prey your consciousness gets more control over unconsciousness contents, you become more emotional and get some better control what you do with emotions. With everyday practice of a prey or other emotional concentration on some wish - after a time you'll notice accidental events with low chances which are linked to what you wish, mb ways to get the wished or the wished will come. That worked with my wish to meet a human for _several_ times, for example. I used a prey in which I asked that. When you wish - you set the aim and your mind starts to work for it, including your unconsciose abbilities. The borders are not known.

[Myst]

With more practice and efforts you and mb any human should be able to use your unconsciouse abbilities by the decribed imagination approach too. For someones this may be easier, especially for having N types. On my experience the approach may to work at least for what mb related to the telepathy. What I saw is hard to relate to accidental.
This technique is rather ancient and popular. What is seen at how spreaded are monotheistic religions and their history. Mb religions in general as they have a common principle to work with the imagination. And other mystic practices.
Also you may stay sober, there was nothing to suppose to be drunk is obligate. I recommend to not be under substances.

> Nice but again I'm too level-headed to inspire emotional states deliberately in others

Emotions of T types are worse seen by their consciousness. In a prey your consciousness gets more control over unconsciousness contents, you become more emotional and get some better control what you do with emotions. With everyday practice of a prey or other emotional concentration on some wish - after a time you'll notice accidental events with low chances which are linked to what you wish, mb ways to get the wished or the wished will come. That worked with my wish to meet a human for _several_ times, for example. I used a prey in which I asked that. When you wish - you set the aim and your mind starts to work for it, including your unconsciose abbilities. The borders are not known.

The thing is I'm too level-headed for this, so I'm unable to believe in it, so if I was to recite a pray, I would not engage with it and my subconscious emotions would not come out any more.

I do know how to do self-suggestion and I use it for understanding myself and stuff more sometimes but I don't do spiritual practices for that. Like I said I'm not able to believe in those so I remain uninspired with those.

I can set aims to believe in without spiritual practices anyway.