I don't get dual relationships (duality)

[Lord Pixel]

Hi, @Myst.

I read all of the descriptions of love in your link, and I agree that I probably come closest to the Pragma form of love. Except you'd have to blend that in with Stupidia, which is the form of love that keeps you married when your SLI partner has left for greener pastures.

I was talking to my IEE bookkeeper today, and she is about 18 years into a marriage to an ILE and is counting the days until her separation and divorce, which will be when her youngest goes off to college. I asked her what happened, and she said that she married him because she expected that they would both grow up after they got married, bought a house, and had kids, but it turned out that only she grew up. He, on the other hand, wants a Mommy who will find his underpants for him and remind him when it's time to eat.
She said that the warning signs were there from the first. They threw a dinner party for some friends, and she first cleaned his messy apartment, bought the food, prepared the meal, served the meal, and then cleaned off the table and after the guests had gone, did the dishes. When she complained that she felt like he had done nothing and she was just serving him, he told her "I like to be served", at which point she blew up. She married him anyway, so, she says, she has only herself to blame.
She also told me that he forgets their kid's birthdays and is never there for holidays. She said that this used to really hurt her, but she now just gives him exactly what he gave her for her birthday. This year, she said, he got a text saying "Happy Birthday", because that's exactly what she got from him last year. But, she went on to say, she buys herself really nice presents.
She was also very interested in seeing how Match.com works, because she's planning ahead.

So, I guess, Pragma isn't just a Gamma thing.

That whole thing makes sense. She literally lays out the Si future she expected but did not get. I imagine most people walk down the isle with a DS expectation like that.

I heard a saying that says we walk down the isle with 6 people. Who we are, who we think we are, who we think they are, who they are, who they think they are, and who they think we are. Somehow I think there is some socionics in that lol.

That story though kinda reminds me when I dated an ESI, it felt like both of us had a hard time being the responsible one. I remember once I said to her "One of us has to do the thinking" when I felt like we were about to do something without really thinking about it, and I thought she would take offense to that but she said " You're right." and was willing to take a back seat lol. Essentially what she wanted me to do was up and move from where I was to where she was purely because of how I felt about her, and she wanted me to go with that feeling and uproot, and I argued that we can't just do big moves like that just based on how we feel. I could feel the imminent danger if we both amplified our natural ways like that, doing things purely based on our feelings, that really made me aware of the lack of balance we both had, felt like there was danger on the other side of our indulgence.

I guess that's what happens in kindred relations, you feel so connected in the beginning because someone speaks your language, and it's all fun and games, but later down the line once the honeymoon phase dies in the face of real life problems and struggles you can feel the lack in your self, in your partner, the load you have to carry, or are putting off, and you can feel the lack in your lives, once all the fun and games are over.

I know an fLIE/mLSE power couple and I have no idea what that's like, perhaps being so efficient that you could potentially lose the human factor and roll over people like the obstacles they look like? lol. They seem like a nice pair and don't seem like that at all though. Husband has a hard time trying to get his wife to be subservient though, and wife has a slightly hard time not speaking over her husband and getting him juice when he asks lol.

[Adam Strange]

That whole thing makes sense. She literally lays out the Si future she expected but did not get. I imagine most people walk down the isle with a DS expectation like that.

I heard a saying that says we walk down the isle with 6 people. Who we are, who we think we are, who we think they are, who they are, who they think they are, and who they think we are. Somehow I think there is some socionics in that lol.

That story though kinda reminds me when I dated an ESI, it felt like both of us had a hard time being the responsible one. I remember once I said to her "One of us has to do the thinking" when I felt like we were about to do something without really thinking about it, and I thought she would take offense to that but she said " You're right." and was willing to take a back seat lol. Essentially what she wanted me to do was up and move from where I was to where she was purely because of how I felt about her, and she wanted me to go with that feeling and uproot, and I argued that we can't just do big moves like that just based on how we feel. I could feel the imminent danger if we both amplified our natural ways like that, doing things purely based on our feelings, that really made me aware of the lack of balance we both had, felt like there was danger on the other side of our indulgence.

I guess that's what happens in kindred relations, you feel so connected in the beginning because someone speaks your language, and it's all fun and games, but later down the line once the honeymoon phase dies in the face of real life problems and struggles you can feel the lack in your self, in your partner, the load you have to carry, or are putting off, and you can feel the lack in your lives, once all the fun and games are over.

I know an fLIE/mLSE power couple and I have no idea what that's like, perhaps being so efficient that you could potentially lose the human factor and roll over people like the obstacles they look like? lol. They seem like a nice pair and don't seem like that at all though. Husband has a hard time trying to get his wife to be subservient though, and wife has a slightly hard time not speaking over her husband and getting him juice when he asks lol.

@Lord Pixel, this is a really constructive post for me right now, in regard to what you said about ESI's. I have recently, slowly been coming to the conclusion that ESI's really do operate on the basis of how they feel about things.

I know, I know, all the books say that's what ESI's do. They are Fi-doms, right? I just have a hard time believing that someone could really, actually be that way. It's like someone tells you that some people can read minds. Right, buddy.

I've known several male ESI's for many years, and while I get along with them easily and have interacted with them on hundreds if not thousands of occasions, I just never thought that they were MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THINGS, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

But in the past couple of years, I've been observing female ESI's very, very closely. And it fits. They actually are basing decisions on how they feel about me. And they aren't doing long range planning. It's just here-in-the-moment, how-do-I-feel-right-now stuff.

There is a female ESI artist whom I've known for about five years, and I'm embarrassed to say that my feelings for her are very strong, Embarrassed, because she's 25. (Goddammit, Adam, get a grip.) I'm happy around her and I can't tell her how I feel because if I did, she'd probably start seeing me as a pervert Uncle. So I don't tell her anything, and she always keeps at arm's length, even though I can tell that she likes being around me, too. For Duality reasons. She just gets observably happy when I'm around.
She came over to my house to take some pictures of her artwork for a website she's making, and as we were moving a table, my arm brushed hers and I glanced at her and she had an inner warm, secret smile on her face, and I thought, what the hell does that mean? It means she's liking me right now, in the moment, without regard to the future. To me, this is both insane and everything I've ever wanted. She told me her work schedule is eight days on, six days off, and it is exhausting her, and I told her she needs to find something more balanced, and she agreed, and then she flew out the door for Colorado, because that was the next thing on her list to do. >_<

As for how an LIE and an LSE Kindred get along, I work with an LSE and he's smart, reliable, and after I got past my associated feelings about my LSE mother, I have to say that when he and I are talking business and engineering, we absolutely click. It is like talking to myself, only he has a slightly different agenda. I'm all about covering all the future bases, and he's all about building something that works not great but adequately and reliably for the customer. We totally understand what the other person is saying. We don't ever talk about feelings, because we don't exactly have any, and I think we both know that.
As for the hierarchy, he works at my direction, and he accepts that, unless he's working on a project that I'm not involved in, in which case he ignores me. I don't want him to be subservient, I want him to be him with all his talents, making the best decisions he can, with occasional input from my future planning. In turn, I bow to him when he talks about making things simple enough to deliver to the customer on time. I think I'm tuned to that because ESI's tend to do that, too.

[Lord Pixel]

@Lord Pixel, this is a really constructive post for me right now, in regard to what you said about ESI's. I have recently, slowly been coming to the conclusion that ESI's really do operate on the basis of how they feel about things.



I know, I know, all the books say that's what ESI's do. They are Fi-doms, right? I just have a hard time believing that someone could really, actually be that way. It's like someone tells you that some people can read minds. Right, buddy.

I've known several male ESI's for many years, and while I get along with them easily and have interacted with them on hundreds if not thousands of occasions, I just never thought that they were MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THINGS, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

Damn right !!!!!!!!! What's so weird about that? lol.
That had me dying.

Chocolate or vanilla? Vanilla. Because I like it better.

There is a female ESI artist whom I've known for about five years, and I'm embarrassed to say that my feelings for her are very strong, Embarrassed, because she's 25. (Goddammit, Adam, get a grip.) I'm happy around her and I can't tell her how I feel because if I did, she'd probably start seeing me as a pervert Uncle. So I don't tell her anything, and she always keeps at arm's length, even though I can tell that she likes being around me, too. For Duality reasons. She just gets observably happy when I'm around.
She came over to my house to take some pictures of her artwork for a website she's making, and as we were moving a table, my arm brushed hers and I glanced at her and she had an inner warm, secret smile on her face, and I thought, what the hell does that mean? It means she's liking me right now, in the moment, without regard to the future. To me, this is both insane and everything I've ever wanted. She told me her work schedule is eight days on, six days off, and it is exhausting her, and I told her she needs to find something more balanced, and she agreed, and then she flew out the door for Colorado, because that was the next thing on her list to do. >_<

I felt those words lol. But yea I never considered that it's just she just likes you in the moment and that's it and nothing beyond that moment, that is very different.
Both insane and everything you've ever wanted that's great.

Ah so just doing what's the next thing on the list, is that also Ne PoLR, I feel like it is, the lack of alternatives and the direct Se doing what's right in front of youness.

As for how an LIE and an LSE Kindred get along, I work with an LSE and he's smart, reliable, and after I got past my associated feelings about my LSE mother, I have to say that when he and I are talking business and engineering, we absolutely click. It is like talking to myself, only he has a slightly different agenda. I'm all about covering all the future bases, and he's all about building something that works not great but adequately and reliably for the customer. We totally understand what the other person is saying. We don't ever talk about feelings, because we don't exactly have any, and I think we both know that.
As for the hierarchy, he works at my direction, and he accepts that, unless he's working on a project that I'm not involved in, in which case he ignores me. I don't want him to be subservient, I want him to be him with all his talents, making the best decisions he can, with occasional input from my future planning. In turn, I bow to him when he talks about making things simple enough to deliver to the customer on time. I think I'm tuned to that because ESI's tend to do that, too.

Yea I think the issue is LSE is like I am the man and want's LIE to be the woman but it's requires her to bite her tongue.

[Myst]

@Lord Pixel, this is a really constructive post for me right now, in regard to what you said about ESI's. I have recently, slowly been coming to the conclusion that ESI's really do operate on the basis of how they feel about things.

I know, I know, all the books say that's what ESI's do. They are Fi-doms, right? I just have a hard time believing that someone could really, actually be that way. It's like someone tells you that some people can read minds. Right, buddy.

I've known several male ESI's for many years, and while I get along with them easily and have interacted with them on hundreds if not thousands of occasions, I just never thought that they were MAKING DECISIONS BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THINGS, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

But in the past couple of years, I've been observing female ESI's very, very closely. And it fits. They actually are basing decisions on how they feel about me. And they aren't doing long range planning. It's just here-in-the-moment, how-do-I-feel-right-now stuff.

Yah it took me years too to truly understand the original definition of Feeling (before moving on to better frameworks)

As for how an LIE and an LSE Kindred get along, I work with an LSE and he's smart, reliable, and after I got past my associated feelings about my LSE mother, I have to say that when he and I are talking business and engineering, we absolutely click. It is like talking to myself, only he has a slightly different agenda. I'm all about covering all the future bases, and he's all about building something that works not great but adequately and reliably for the customer. We totally understand what the other person is saying. We don't ever talk about feelings, because we don't exactly have any, and I think we both know that.

You both do have feelings just in part controlled by rationality and in part suppressed (by the same rationality). And in both cases they play a part in decision-making.

But I guess you were joking anyway

[Samuel Leopold]

There is a female ESI artist whom I've known for about five years, and I'm embarrassed to say that my feelings for her are very strong, Embarrassed, because she's 25. (Goddammit, Adam, get a grip.)

There may not be anything inherently wrong with this. My dad was 39 years old, the same age I am now, when he and my mom got married. My mom was 21 at that time.

[Adam Strange]

There may not be anything inherently wrong with this. My dad was 39 years old, the same age I am now, when he and my mom got married. My mom was 21 at that time.

Do you attribute any problems they may have had to this age difference?

[Samuel Leopold]

They weren't exactly angels playing the harp, but is anybody? Whatever problems there were, the age difference didn't cause them. My dad was ILE, by the way, and my mom is ESE. If there were any problems that went beyond raised voices, it must have been before I was born.