I don't get dual relationships (duality)

[Eliza Thomason]

He should leave the design up to you. Doesn't he know better?

Well, we both always designed without collaborating, both being the only designer in our families. But we both bring these design skills, and so we collaborate.

An art teacher friend of mine has an architect husband, not a dual, a good match though, and they were at odds with home design all the time and usually it took her giving in, as arriving at a compromise most of the time was too difficult. With two designers, its harder. Though I think its IMPORTANT for the husband to give in to the wife on this, and I think her husband was wrong here. He is a good guy in plenty other ways.

Yes, I would say in general home design is the wife's domain. Of course, you agree, when the husband is better at this, as in an architect, or more interested, his input is important. My EII friend with her SLE husband - she let him do it, MOSTLY, for compelling reasons. But there was the time he picked out kitchen backsplash tile without her - and installed it while she was out for the day - she got home as he and his buddy (that she did not like) were finishing the job. And that was her limit. She called me and asked me to help her PULL IT ALL OFF" quick, while it was wet and while he was out on a call... and I did...

[Olimpia]

lol
How about the possibility of meeting an LSE instead because they tend to become the best at something that they pick up. How do you recognize them from SLE

From afar they may look the same, but at a closer distance and with enough "soul probing", you can see whether they are Se or Te lead - the difference is pretty clear to me.
Besides that, EP temperament is much more flexible and likes "going with the flow" and adapting to the situation opposed to EJ.

At the end of the day, the Quadra values will come forward...
LSE can put on an Fe (Role) facade, but they don't truly value it. Most of the time, they don't care for having boisterous laughter in an interaction. They don't mind it as much as an Fe PoLR would, but they are not really attached to it. Whereas an SLE (esp. Se subtype) will try to "force" to have an Fe-inclusive interaction in certain ways. (The Ti subtype less likely so, but they will look out for interactions that have the "Fe factor", whereas LSE is totally fine without it.)

Most importantly, an LSE will belittle someone's Ni or find it insubstantial, too fickle. Whereas an Ni-seeking type like SLE will welcome insight in the future and gain inspiration/motivation from Ni.

At last, the Aggressor Romance style is remarkably different from the Caretaker one. Aggressors are much more stimulated by "chasing" someone and winning their admiration, whereas an LSE Caretaker will like to find someone they can teach and take care of in certain ways.

[darya]

From afar they may look the same, but at a closer distance and with enough "soul probing", you can see whether they are Se or Te lead - the difference is pretty clear to me.
Besides that, EP temperament is much more flexible and likes "going with the flow" and adapting to the situation opposed to EJ.

At the end of the day, the Quadra values will come forward...
LSE can put on an Fe (Role) facade, but they don't truly value it. Most of the time, they don't care for having boisterous laughter in an interaction. They don't mind it as much as an Fe PoLR would, but they are not really attached to it. Whereas an SLE (esp. Se subtype) will try to "force" to have an Fe-inclusive interaction in certain ways. (The Ti subtype less likely so, but they will look out for interactions that have the "Fe factor", whereas LSE is totally fine without it.)

Most importantly, an LSE will belittle someone's Ni or find it insubstantial, too fickle. Whereas an Ni-seeking type like SLE will welcome insight in the future and gain inspiration/motivation from Ni.

At last, the Aggressor Romance style is remarkably different from the Caretaker one. Aggressors are much more stimulated by "chasing" someone and winning their admiration, whereas an LSE Caretaker will like to find someone they can teach and take care of in certain ways.

I swear I'm not picking on you, Sis (you probably hate me by now ), I just wanted to point out that while I agree with romancing styles in general, especially at the beginning of the relationships, these roles can later become muddy. My dad is LSI for example, Se subtype, and he can be remarkably patronizing and "teachery" with my EIE mom and me. Teaches us the correct way to clean or do things for example or is smartassy about the ways of life. He's also very worried and protective of us (e6). I've noticed that in several other LSI's (imo all SJ's are like that to an extent) and E-types.It's not always related to Si ego.

[Olimpia]

I swear I'm not picking on you, Sis (you probably hate me by now ), I just wanted to point out that while I agree with romancing styles in general, especially at the beginning of the relationships, these roles can later become muddy. My dad is LSI for example, Se subtype, and he can be remarkably patronizing and "teachery" with my EIE mom and me. Teaches us the correct way to clean or do things for example or is smartassy about the ways of life. He's also very worried and protective of us (e6). I've noticed that in several other LSI's (imo all SJ's are like that to an extent) and E-types.It's not always related to Si ego.

I actually don't hate you at all, haha.

Sure, many males can fall into this patronizing role from time to time. This depends a lot on the interaction between the people... As in, being frustrated and feeling superior intellectually makes most people fall into the role of the "know-it-all" teacher, though this is mostly the case for 4D Te types.

But yes, not only ST Caretakers want to teach. I just tried to point out the overall vibes of the two different Romance styles. I feel like the Demonstrative function may skew the expression of the romance style from time to time. For instance, LSI has got 4D Si, so they may exhibit occasional bouts of "Caretaker" behavior; same for LSEs and their 4D Se sometimes resulting in a playful aggressiveness.

There can be several layers to Romance style expression. Categorizing them into Victim/Aggressor and Childlike/Caretaker is a way to capture the main theme of each style.

[HotSauce]

Reading this, I might actually prefer Activation over Duality. Could be related to me being Social instinct first, and not SO blindspot (which the Duality description here sounds more like).

I have two ENTJ friends. My best guy friend in the world is an ENTJ and we have been friends since we were teenagers. Activation ROCKS. We work really well together and always get each others point of view very well. It's a very seamless relationship, and no matter how much time passes, it's like we are on the same wavelength. If I had a project to complete or if I had an idea for a new business venture I would only feel comfortable going full throttle with an ENTJ by my side.

HOWEVER...after having a couple of romantic escapades with ENTJs (not my ENTJ friends - random ENTJ guys I've met, I can smell them a mile away) I can say that I find ENTJs need signs of romantic loyalty from me that I don't naturally give. ENTJs are really sensitive about betrayal at the end of the day - and even really jealous. That Te can make judgement calls about my behavior that are way off base.

With my INTP boyfriend, if I casually talk to some guy at the bar while he goes to the mens room, he's fine with it, he knows I'm there with him. He will return and say "Hey babe" and wrap his arm around me.

With an ENTJ? Talk to a random guy at the bar while he is in the mens room, and he will be ready to dump you.

[Kenthalas]

As an ILI who was recently in a relationship with an SEE, I may be able to provide some insight into this. SEE and ILI can meet one another through any of the normal means that people meet each other; in my case, it was introduction by a mutual friend. As far as how the relationships work out, this is my first relationship since learning socionics (and the SEE is actually the one who taught me about it), so I have only this one experience from which to draw examples. For me, I'm rather quiet and withdrawn most of the time. My SEE ex and I met at a party, and I was sitting in the corner generally ignoring the party, while she repeatedly tried to engage with me and I rebuffed her. It was only after the party, the next morning, when we woke up that I started to find her more interesting. I spoke to her on a one-to-one basis and was immediately attracted to her charm and spirit. A few weeks later, we started dating, and we did have quite a bit of difficulty, I will admit. The biggest problem we had was that I was interested in a long-term relationship, and she was not. The irony is that, even though, as an ILI, as you say, I'm supposed to value my alone time and such, I actually sought out way too much of her time, while she was much more interested in being alone. As often happens with ILIs, when we make attachments, we tend to make very strong attachments. Unfortunately for me, I was much more attached than she was, and so eventually she left me.

More directly to your question, I'm an educated, analytical man in every sense of the word. I'm a Master's student in Biology at the moment, and a former Air Force Intelligence analyst. It really was the vibrancy and energy of the SEE that drew me to her. It was her "life of the party" personality that was most attractive to me. She represented everything about the world that I had always lacked, a connection to other people and this sense of belonging that I didn't have, and could never find on my own. I can't answer for her side of what she found attractive about me, but at least from the point of view of your question, my experience seems fairly relevant.

[Myst]

For instance, I have noticed I actually value matching political orientations a lot, more than I've previously thought (unconscious ftw).

I don't think that has to do with Fi - I relate to finding this important myself, though significantly more in the religion area than in the political area

We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ...

Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

[Eliza Thomason]

I don't think that has to do with Fi - I relate to finding this important myself, though significantly more in the religion area than in the political area




Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

No. He is SLI. Also my SLE son likes math.. I think LII is not the only type that likes math... Also science, LII would not the only type to like it.

[ghost of forum past]

Lol mathematical compositions, is he LII?

I feel objectified.

[Aylen]

I feel objectified.

Little known fact, LII brain is sold on the black market. It is right up there with bear testicles and tiger paws in popularity. Just not as well known. Please watch out for yourself.

[Myst]

No. He is SLI. Also my SLE son likes math.. I think LII is not the only type that likes math... Also science, LII would not the only type to like it.

Oh, he just seemed very strongly preferring Ti, the way you talked about his orientation.

[ghost of forum past]

Little known fact, LII brain is sold on the black market. It is right up there with bear testicles and tiger paws in popularity. Just not as well known. Please watch out for yourself.

They can't get past my tin foil hat!

[Eliza Thomason]

Oh, he just seemed very strongly preferring Ti, the way you talked about his orientation.

No, he does not have a very strong Ti preference; not sure how you are seeing that. We both like to design but we take a different approach - and it only makes sense that an NF would have a very different approach to design than an ST.

He likes to craft things, and reconfigure living space - very particularly his OWN HOME space - whereas I enjoy also helping anyone who wants my help with furniture or picture placement, design or color ideas. He will willingly offer people input if they want it, but he likes thinking through a project, making decisions from start to finish. His design focus is emphasized on the most efficient and the most useful use of the space. And he basically appreciates the input of my rule that it has to be efficient AND beautiful. Also, I have a different approach to balance of design that seems foreign to his approach - causing me to often ask him to redo his design ideas taking my proportion/balance ideas into consideration.

An example of his excellent efficiency is, before I was here, he opened up access to the entire attic - a small attic, but now the basically useless space is very useful. As he says: it expands the useful space of the house without "changing the footprint" of the house, thereby, no higher taxes. It used to have access only by a trap door over the shower. He created a nice simple staircase next to that 2nd floor bathroom, with perfect use of the space - not a lot of it, as the proportions of this house are not spacious. This house was designed 100 years ago with real Yankee thrift. Its impressive, I told him - a staircase is not easy - and he said, "I did the maths." He also explained the stairs now wind in the same continuous one-direction spiral from the the cellar to rooftop - that fourth "staircase" being the safe sturdy railed "steps" on the roof, that are the same pitch of the other staircases. See how clever he is? He said the dormers were harder; he spent a long time looking at many, many other houses' dormers and thinking that one through before he built them (and he will say of these dormers that he has never before or since seen anything like these he designed for the space. The are not amazingly cute or anything, like I would have been going for, but efficient), and he also bumped out the roof for a bathroom w/shower - also a major project, and that bathroom's roof is a deck. It really was quite a problem to plan and design, the kind of problem I would have a hard time figuring out. I woudl never have been able to imagine how to open the attic up. And now its really nice guest quarters, because the guest can have their "own floor", with the little bedroom in the back, and the little center hallway with storage drawers along the slanted wall, and their "own bathroom", plus the unique observation deck on the roof.

So, back just after we decided this was love and that we wanted to tie the knot - a time just prior to which he was in a rather directionless, unhappy state - I asked him: "What would you most want to do with your time, if you could choose?" And his first thing was, "work more on this house" and the 2nd - to teach Latin someday. So now we have this one room we are making from the old ugly three-season porch, the once-ugliest part of the house. Its the last big change on the house, and so, the last chance to design, and we have lots of things we are trying to do in that simple smallish space. And this new joint-approach to design is making him ask: "How did I ever manage that attic project without you?" Ah, yes, collaborating is more challenging!

And as to Latin, we need this room for him to teach from the house. I can be with my Mom in the main part of the downstairs, and he can hole off in the side room with his students, which will be fairly sound-proof with the door shut. So, we hope to have it finished-off inside by fall...And meanwhile, he has been teaching Latin to his college-age son, and now his daughter's daughter wants to learn, and will start soon.

As to creating, I can easily whip up a good sketch of my idea, but he uses an (old) computer program to put my sketched idea into a scaled plan. This week when I asked he made me a scaled floor plan so that I can copy it on graph paper, as I prefer pencil and paper, so I can work on my furniture floor plan (using graph paper furniture and tape wads to move things around and find the best plan) so I can decide if the cute affordable little old rocker that would be easy to reupholster, that I saw at a consignment shop, will fit in our new room, or if that will be one piece of furniture too many... And he takes real interest in my figuring out problems like this, in my way, that that's a treasure to me, a real bonus of life with my dear SLI husband.

[Myst]

No, he does not have a very strong Ti preference; not sure how you are seeing that. We both like to design but we take a different approach - and it only makes sense that an NF would have a very different approach to design than an ST.

I was seeing it here: "We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ..."

And why I thought of Ti - these mathematical compositions are not really for any sort of Te practical efficiency but for the Ti elegance of logic. (Both can be efficient, otherwise, just the emphasis is different.)

Of course I don't know him, but this stood out to me strongly.

Either way, it seems like you two work out together very well, regardless of type.

[Eliza Thomason]

I was seeing it here: "We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ..."

And why I thought of Ti - these mathematical compositions are not really for any sort of Te practical efficiency but for the Ti elegance of logic. (Both can be efficient, otherwise, just the emphasis is different.)

Of course I don't know him, but this stood out to me strongly.

Either way, it seems like you two work out together very well, regardless of type.

Yeah, he is really "The Craftsman". Craftsman need mathematics to craft, and to design and build homes and cabinetry, etc. He like math in its practical application, not when it gets more theoretical, like calculus. A Ti would be more interested in that. My son, a SLE [ SeTi], likes calculus, and physics too. And that's a difference, as my husband did not enjoy the more theoretical less practical math that is calculus.

Well, I am talking with my husband to confirm this, as I never even tried calculus, and he says calculus does have practical application but "its a little bit beyond me". He said even Algebra gets theoretical. He prefers the practical application of geometry. Also he did drafting in college and liked it, and took more than one course in it, whereas I took the one required, Drafting 101, and did not like the class as it was not easy for me to think in the required way. His drawings have that draftsman-like precision whereas mine are more organic.


But you are LSI! So - you like math, and particularly, delving very deeply into subjects? Gulenko calls you "The type most characterized by singular concentration is LSI." Wow. I have definitely seen this as I have a lot of LSIs in my life now, because of my husband, whose small circle is full of them - his brother, son and ex, whom we are all close to, and interact with a lot. His son impresses me with his singular concentration learning languages. He has really absorbed Latin this year and is onto Sanskrit. And he works on an organic farm, and wow can he weed! He was helping us one day, and I was surprised at his concentration! So I am curious, where does this amazing LSI "singular concentrated focus" show up for you?

Quintofoil idea -- since you quoted it, I'll explain. You will find this interesting as a Ti-dom math person. Apparently, our roof line I guess happens to be the same mathematical angle as the top of a pentagon. That end of the house we both agree "needs" an attic window, and he was enthused about an idea he had already conceived for this space - a pentagon. Because it fits the space perfectly! I immediately HATED the idea. I tried to entertain this idea out of respect for his idea, and make myself get used to it, but I just couldn't like it, no way, no how. It reminds me of the federal Pentagon building - not impressed - or a Dodge Ram truck or other Dodge car about to fall apart - not impressed - or a satanic symbol - totally don't want that. He suggested, okay, then a quintifoil flower. He wants something unique, reflecting his thought process, which is a SLI thing, I was not surprised to read. That little "unique unusual touch" they want to add to their craftsmen projects. And he introduces it into EVERY design plan, but I just can't get on board with them all. Particularly not this one. Even the flower. Its too much for this simple house. I tried to like it but I just had to say "no" to the pentagon. Fortunately he is okay with my alternative suggestion (which I think is the perfect window) of a horizontal oval. But we cannot afford this now and will just have to wait til our ship comes in, if it ever does, because we have other priorities.

Here, this is your Dual interacting with my SLI. Its pretty funny:

[Beautiful sky]

@Myst her husband is SLI and she's an amazing typer

[Myst]

Yeah, he is really "The Craftsman". Craftsman need mathematics to craft, and to design and build homes and cabinetry, etc. He like math in its practical application, not when it gets more theoretical, like calculus. A Ti would be more interested in that. My son, a SLE [ SeTi], likes calculus, and physics too. And that's a difference, as my husband did not enjoy the more theoretical less practical math that is calculus.

Well, I am talking with my husband to confirm this, as I never even tried calculus, and he says calculus does have practical application but "its a little bit beyond me". He said even Algebra gets theoretical. He prefers the practical application of geometry. Also he did drafting in college and liked it, and took more than one course in it, whereas I took the one required, Drafting 101, and did not like the class as it was not easy for me to think in the required way. His drawings have that draftsman-like precision whereas mine are more organic.

I see.

But you are LSI! So - you like math, and particularly, delving very deeply into subjects? Gulenko calls you "The type most characterized by singular concentration is LSI." Wow. I have definitely seen this as I have a lot of LSIs in my life now, because of my husband, whose small circle is full of them - his brother, son and ex, whom we are all close to, and interact with a lot. His son impresses me with his singular concentration learning languages. He has really absorbed Latin this year and is onto Sanskrit. And he works on an organic farm, and wow can he weed! He was helping us one day, and I was surprised at his concentration! So I am curious, where does this amazing LSI "singular concentrated focus" show up for you?

Maths stuff is fine but I'm not theoretical enough to want to deal with it all day. (I'm able to do so if I have some goal with it, though, e.g. a competitive goal.) I do delve deeply into subjects that relate to actual reality enough, at least eventually.

Yeah, I have that concentration In anything I do. It's just how I work.

Btw, do you get along with them, how do you handle conflict relations?

Quintofoil idea -- since you quoted it, I'll explain. You will find this interesting as a Ti-dom math person. Apparently, our roof line I guess happens to be the same mathematical angle as the top of a pentagon. That end of the house we both agree "needs" an attic window, and he was enthused about an idea he had already conceived for this space - a pentagon. Because it fits the space perfectly! I immediately HATED the idea. I tried to entertain this idea out of respect for his idea, and make myself get used to it, but I just couldn't like it, no way, no how. It reminds me of the federal Pentagon building - not impressed - or a Dodge Ram truck or other Dodge car about to fall apart - not impressed - or a satanic symbol - totally don't want that. He suggested, okay, then a quintifoil flower. He wants something unique, reflecting his thought process, which is a SLI thing, I was not surprised to read. That little "unique unusual touch" they want to add to their craftsmen projects. And he introduces it into EVERY design plan, but I just can't get on board with them all. Particularly not this one. Even the flower. Its too much for this simple house. I tried to like it but I just had to say "no" to the pentagon. Fortunately he is okay with my alternative suggestion (which I think is the perfect window) of a horizontal oval. But we cannot afford this now and will just have to wait til our ship comes in, if it ever does, because we have other priorities.

Lol I find that idea strange, tbh. I would have instantly said no too, unless it wasn't some random suggestion but fitting everything else. OK, I could see that as demonstrative Ti (which is what SLI has). But Ti, nonetheless

Here, this is your Dual interacting with my SLI. Its pretty funny:

Thanks for the video =)

So you see MBTI ISTP as SLI, yeah? I remember you starting a thread on that issue a while ago at PerC. I find it funny how many people just mindlessly apply that j/p switch idea without first examining its validity for themselves and then creating a lot of confusion with that.

@Myst her husband is SLI and she's an amazing typer

I'm not sure why you felt the need to comment in such a non-factual way, some subjective opinion that I can't really do anything with on its own. Not saying it must not be true, just saying I have no way to verify from your statements alone.

[Eliza Thomason]

...Maths stuff is fine but I'm not theoretical enough to want to deal with it all day. (I'm able to do so if I have some goal with it, though, e.g. a competitive goal.) I do delve deeply into subjects that relate to actual reality enough, at least eventually.

Yeah, I have that concentration In anything I do. It's just how I work..

That's nice.

..., do you get along with them, how do you handle conflict relations?.

Well, we do not share a household or collaborate day to day. I like them all; we get along great! But I won't be pushing it! I have read on this site, re: getting along with Conflictors, that if working on the same project together its best to work on different aspects, not the same aspect together. So I will keep that in mind.

... Lol I find that idea strange, tbh. I would have instantly said no too, unless it wasn't some random suggestion but fitting everything else..

Yeah, I wanted to please, cringed inside, and wondered if there was SOME way I could ever like it, and was glad this was not a priority in the near future, but only brainstorming, so there was need to shoot it down right away... Anyway I have gotten bolder about saying my opinion over time. And the good thing is, he generally likes my ideas.

. OK, I could see that as demonstrative Ti (which is what SLI has). But Ti, nonetheless .

.Thanks for the video =).

Glad you like it.

.So you see MBTI ISTP as SLI, yeah? I remember you starting a thread on that issue a while ago at PerC..

That was forever ago. I can hardly remember what I wrote there. I do remember a few being adamant that you cannot correlate MBTI/Socionics, and some (probably LIIs since they like things done in proper form) did not feel Socionics should be discussed there, so I thought it right to respect that, and since my interest in Socionics was far superseding my MBTI interest I came here (even though I was comfortable there). The type connection between the two varies by type, and there is percentages posted somewhere. But whatever the percentages, it tends to be the same, for me, almost always. I suspect this is possibly because I learned MBTI long ago from books describing the theory in detail, vs. shorter internet articles, and so I am typing MBTI differently than many. I have intended to analyze that someday, but more and more things are pulling me in other directions.

. I find it funny how many people just mindlessly apply that j/p switch idea without first examining its validity for themselves and then creating a lot of confusion with that. .

I didn't know people were even doing that. I think its another aspect where some are taking a different typing approach than me. Then I find it too hard to follow their thinking process. (Maybe it takes too much Ti to do that, for my comfort!)

[Olimpia]

That was forever ago. I can hardly remember what I wrote there. I do remember a few being adamant that you cannot correlate MBTI/Socionics, and some (probably LIIs since they like things done in proper form) did not feel Socionics should be discussed there, so I thought it right to respect that, and since my interest in Socionics was far superseding my MBTI interest I came here (even though I was comfortable there). The type connection between the two varies by type, and there is percentages posted somewhere. But whatever the percentages, it tends to be the same, for me, almost always. I suspect this is possibly because I learned MBTI long ago from books describing the theory in detail, vs. shorter internet articles, and so I am typing MBTI differently than many. I have intended to analyze that someday, but more and more things are pulling me in other directions.

[Pink]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience.

I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

The male SLE that was easy to get along with was a top salesman. He had a very alluring, compelling, and attractive energy that radiated off of him. He has broken records in Sales, and just overall is great at what he does. We worked well together, and although sometimes his use of Se made him come off bossy and forceful, we had peaceful relations. (I sometimes wonder if he might have been SEE instead, though. He would like to engage in gossip, and would act nice in front of someone's face, and then shit talk them the next moment. I can't decipher if that's just weak Fi or Fi gone "wrong" in SEE).

The other male SLEs were an absolute nightmare to work with. They over-exerted their Se, long story short, they were pretty much self absorbed dicks. I'm pretty sure the main reason why I found them unenjoyable to work with is probably factors that go beyond socionics types, such as Narcissism, Sociopathy, etc.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around. Humans are just not that simple.

[Sol]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience. I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around.

most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

[Beautiful sky]

duals support each others weakness especially socially

[Olimpia]

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.

Simply agree.

most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

Partly disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say most Duals of the opposite sex are pleasant. There are many more factors influencing compatibility besides Socionics.
But I'd say that most Duals won't be unpleasant as long as you are not totally turned off by each other due to reasons outside the intertype relation itself.

[Olimpia]

For instance, I am politically Liberal and value political compatibility highly, probably more highly than the average person.
I am friends with a male Conservative SLE on Facebook. While I could never be with someone like him in a long-term romantic relationship due to our opposite political views, I still enjoy his "presence" and energy.

[Sol]

Partly disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say most Duals of the opposite sex are pleasant. There are many more factors influencing compatibility besides Socionics

Other factos don't change the situation that most duals are personally pleasant in common communication. Such is in my experience and there is no theory to think other. To get opposite result should be generally rare. For closer relations the importance of other factors may to rise. With common communications negative factos are suppressed by the culture, so effects even of bad IR are minimized.

But I'd say that most Duals won't be unpleasant as long as you are not totally turned off by each other due to reasons outside the intertype relation itself.

It's also doubtful to use "neutral impression" category for most duals. If you'll pay attention on IR related effects - you'll notice them and they will be pleasant from duals in normal IRL communications.

[Jarno]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience.

I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

The male SLE that was easy to get along with was a top salesman. He had a very alluring, compelling, and attractive energy that radiated off of him. He has broken records in Sales, and just overall is great at what he does. We worked well together, and although sometimes his use of Se made him come off bossy and forceful, we had peaceful relations. (I sometimes wonder if he might have been SEE instead, though. He would like to engage in gossip, and would act nice in front of someone's face, and then shit talk them the next moment. I can't decipher if that's just weak Fi or Fi gone "wrong" in SEE).

The other male SLEs were an absolute nightmare to work with. They over-exerted their Se, long story short, they were pretty much self absorbed dicks. I'm pretty sure the main reason why I found them unenjoyable to work with is probably factors that go beyond socionics types, such as Narcissism, Sociopathy, etc.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around. Humans are just not that simple.

yes, a person with a disorder is by definition almost non-human. they can only screw you up. I've dated a borderline esfp, completely useless relationship.

[Pink]

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.



most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

Oh, definitely there's a possibility that I may have them mistyped. From my understanding of Socionics though and my analysis of their character and personalities, I am quite sure they were Beta ST men. Their Se was so raw, natural, forceful, and powerful to deny it as their dominant function. They shared many, many similarities to the pleasant SLE that I enjoyed working with.

The differences with these men, there was just something terribly off and terrifying about them. As @Jarno mentioned, un-human. I don't believe I've ever experienced working alongside so many narcissistic, sociopathic men in my life.. I admired their abilities and their talents, they excelled in areas that I lacked (reaching quotas, forceful tactics, etc), and I excelled in areas of Ethics where they lacked. Their self-interests and inhumane acts became too unbearable to handle.

The last sentence you wrote there, may or may not be true.. But, what if I am the one who is mistyped? That's the issue I have with Socionics.

[consentingadult]

yes, a person with a disorder is by definition almost non-human. they can only screw you up. I've dated a borderline esfp, completely useless relationship.

I've dated a bordeline SLE once. Now I can't go back...

https://youtu.be/3dGhsRsHXP8?t=4m21s

[weirdleftovers]

How did this thread turn into a discussion about people living with mental disorders. Mental disorders come and go in the psychiatric community; transgender was once a disorder along with black slaves seeking freedom. Furthermore, politics, religion and social values often create, define and influence what is considered mentally healthy. With the latest DSM update, many personality disorders no longer exist in their original form. Next year, we may be considered as people with mental disorders because we interact on forums. Unless you have a degree and are a practicing, mental health professional, keep the rude "diagnosis" to yourself because such comments only perpetuate the mental health stigma.

*Disclaimer: I am only speaking about my personal, real-life experiences with people I know. Generalizations are specific to the aforementioned. Others "resonating", or "relating" with these experiences--often given in anecdotal form--is not expected or the point.*

As to the original post, duality is natural and doesn't take work. I met my first SLE boyfriend while walking home minding my business. He pulled up, like an interloper, and gave me his number. I can only speak about myself and SLEs, but meeting them isn't hard. They've been initially attracted or interested in me because I seem lost in thought or preoccupied with something other than them. They've wanted to know why I'm not impressed by them. They've been curious about me looking disheveled or odd in public. These all lead to the chase. They ask questions and I give short, uninterested answers, which only leads to more prodding.

In school I did notice SLEs staring at me. They always gave me the same look. If they were interested I wouldn't know because of the need to maintain social hierarchy and date the populars. It was probably more lack of attraction; I wasn't feminine at all and looked and dressed like a stem (stud/femme mix). As an sx 4, I'm too competitive and envious to be impressed by anyone, so I never gushed and cooed over an SLEs, only showed indifference. This attitude helped nothing.

Betas often want and encourage all to participate in social settings (parties, get-togethers, friends hanging out, etc), so when someone isn't involved, they (we) try to engage them. With IEI-Ni, this lack of participation happens often. We may be lost in thought, distracted or uninterested. SLEs notice this and will attempt to engage us, which leads to the chase. All quadras have their main characteristic or focus in which all the types operate, creating an attraction without trying.

I think duality works best with people who know themselves and are honest about who they are including recognizing their weaknesses. If you're lying to yourself or don't like yourself, you might find duality difficult to achieve. Yes, this is true for any relationship regardless the type, but it's especially true for duality. I had to overcome what I felt was introvert discrimination. I had to become honest about who I was, which was challenging. I felt overwhelmed and dismissed by a society that seemed to favor the extrovert, the logical and the physically inclined. I had to learn my value and my strength while accepting my weaknesses. In doing this, I began to realize the benefit of being with an extrovert and the limitations that went with me chronically dating introverts. Dating fellow introverts was familiar and easy, but not helpful for my growth.

[Chae]

I see duality as a sort of redemption. It happens when one taps into their DS/HA on their own as well, much like Roy Batty (SLE) in Blade Runner is redeemed after a catharsis of NiFe.

[Adam Strange]

I'm a planner. I try to get as much information as possible about a path to a goal before undertaking a project. It's just what I do.

Yesterday I called an ESI buddy of mine to ask him what he thought went wrong in my failed attempt to get date with a female ESI. He immediately said the problem I'm having is that I'm too ugly, and I should just send her over to him.

I ignored this idiot's advice and said that the problem, according to her, was that I asked her out to dinner with just a few hours notice, and no way in hell was she going anywhere on that short a notice.

He goes, "That's weird. So, did you ask her out in a week?"

"No. How much time do you think you'd need to get mentally prepared for a date?"

"If she's pretty, about one microsecond. Where does this girl live? I'm available and I'm incredibly handsome."

"She lives close to you and you guys are almost twins and I'm not giving you her address. Look, how much time do you think she'd need?"

"Dude, you are overthinking this. Just ask her out again for next week, and if she says No again, then there's your answer."

So I'm overthinking this, according to an ESI himself. Apparently, an ESI just JUMPS AT THE RABBIT when making dating decisions.

This explains so much.

[Rebelondeck]

Duality is rare in spousal relationships because, first and foremost, the human animal is programmed to reproduce; type compatibility won't show on most people's radar as will physical attractiveness (which is a very subjective measure). Socionics is better aimed at understanding the people and relationships that we already have in our lives - not as a divining rod for new relationships. However, it's not unusual for some N-types and for some F-types to ignore perfectly good relationships while they're in pursuit of highly improbable ideals.....

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

I still wonder how xLE should even find relationship something to strive for. According to the definition it should be something that tends to be highly non-important which it is. LXI can still play pretended relationships.

[Sol]

I still wonder how xLE should even find relationship something to strive for.

all functions represent a part of peoples' relations

> According to the definition it should be something that tends to be highly non-important which it is.

you do not understand what you read
for ILE as _lesser important_ are superego functions: Fi - personal sympathy/compassion, Se - material income
while superid are: Fe - admiration, emotional agitation, Si - to care good about pleasant sensantions

superid is what people seek in friendship the most

> LXI can still play pretended relationships

by role you may surfacely and nonstably to show something. in closer relations role is supressed often and LxI become lesser soft people
the best who may play "pretended relationships" in emotional part are F types. they'll smile you as "all is ok" and after the door is closed they may cheat. they may show good family to others - as they go on weekends to walk with kids, to place photos from vacations, together visit parrents regularly. but after they return to home - the both may stop to talk with each other. F types know what to do to give the needed emotional "image" of something "good"

[Myst]

I'm a planner. I try to get as much information as possible about a path to a goal before undertaking a project. It's just what I do.

Yesterday I called an ESI buddy of mine to ask him what he thought went wrong in my failed attempt to get date with a female ESI. He immediately said the problem I'm having is that I'm too ugly, and I should just send her over to him.

I ignored this idiot's advice and said that the problem, according to her, was that I asked her out to dinner with just a few hours notice, and no way in hell was she going anywhere on that short a notice.

He goes, "That's weird. So, did you ask her out in a week?"

"No. How much time do you think you'd need to get mentally prepared for a date?"

"If she's pretty, about one microsecond. Where does this girl live? I'm available and I'm incredibly handsome."

"She lives close to you and you guys are almost twins and I'm not giving you her address. Look, how much time do you think she'd need?"

"Dude, you are overthinking this. Just ask her out again for next week, and if she says No again, then there's your answer."

So I'm overthinking this, according to an ESI himself. Apparently, an ESI just JUMPS AT THE RABBIT when making dating decisions.

This explains so much.

Err, this goes way beyond Socionics's little model. Men vs women ...... a lot of difference in how the two sexes get socialised, a lot of different expectations etc.

I agree though with the buddy, it's overthinking. Let us know how it went with the girl.

[Adam Strange]

Err, this goes way beyond Socionics's little model. Men vs women ...... a lot of difference in how the two sexes get socialised, a lot of different expectations etc.

I agree though with the buddy, it's overthinking. Let us know how it went with the girl.

I didn’t call her. I like spending time with her. I like her a lot. But I don’t see her as wife material, so going out with her would be very unfair to her.

They say that people can tell in the first thirty seconds of meeting whether or not a person has long term potential. She has long term potential as a friend/date, but that’s it.

You could say I’m overthinking this, but going out with her would also distract me from finding a woman whom I think could be wife material. So it’s also kind of selfish.

[Lord Pixel]

I went on a date with an SLE, which is my conflictor. Reason I went on a date was because physically she was attractive, and she was very straight forward so she made approaching her simple and even gave silent but obvious invitations to approach her. Which is one thing I find refreshing about the aggressor romance style.

On the date so many red flags popped up that I became uncomfortable, trying to hold back from secretly judging her and feeling being indirectly judged. She wanted tons of tattoos all over her body, she ran away from home on a wim, called her mom stupid, called guys she dated in the past pussies for being "in their feelings", and said that anytime she had sex with someone she had to immediately leave, "flay away" she said, she chalked it up to daddy issues.

So I could quite easily feel the incompatibility between me and the Ep temperament, Se dom, and Ti creative.

So if conflictor can be so obviously not what you want, I'm guessing duality can be somewhat the opposite, if other things line up of course.

As far as how I've met duals, I would agree it's not so straight forward or easy. The most duals I've met were at church, which sound very steretypical for Si/Fi valuing conservative God and country types, and it is, and I like it that way lol. But other duals I have met were random like meeting other people, I do think they stand out to each other, the psychological easy makes the person easy to be around and that can be a reason why they standout, because of the ease that you have with a complete stranger. I've met duals at school, at a cafe, at work, it's never some "socionics established" place, location, or activity that I've met a dual, perhaps church is the only socionics predicted place other than that I've just met people. Maybe the only place I met 2 duals at once that was stereotypical was a military simulation company which was a very ST environment, but then again that was not my club or a place I'd choose to be normally.

I've seen an LIE and ESI meet at a tech convention where the LIE came in talking about companies he owned and investments he's made and ESI approached him looking for funding for a project, it was weird to see this very worldly and cultured venture capitalist talking to this skater kid and them becoming "cool" with each other lol. The way it looked was LIE was very boiterous and charismatic when talking to a group of people and then when talking to ESI he looked more like he was speaking secretly and off the record with someone he knew, even though they just met.

[Adam Strange]

I've seen an LIE and ESI meet at a tech convention where the LIE came in talking about companies he owned and investments he's made and ESI approached him looking for funding for a project, it was weird to see this very worldly and cultured venture capitalist talking to this skater kid and them becoming "cool" with each other lol. The way it looked was LIE was very boiterous and charismatic when talking to a group of people and then when talking to ESI he looked more like he was speaking secretly and off the record with someone he knew, even though they just met.

Yep, that’s me when I talk to people. Very public in front of a crowd, very one-on-one when speaking to a dual.

Actually, when I talk to a dual, they are the only important person in the room.

[Spermatozoa]

Well this is exactly what sucks about duality and life in general. Even though duality has the most potential that does not mean it is the easiest to start, in fact it is one of the more difficult type of relationships to start. This is largely due to duals being in opposite clubs, in which one's dual is mixed in with their superegos/conflictors which may cause to someone to make the mistake of believing it is best to avoid members of their opposite club altogether. The other reason for this is that duals are unlikely to meet because their fields of activity are very distant from one another. For example, an NT may spend most of his time on the internet while an SF would be doing things like going to community events. Even when you do manage to get into close contact with your dual you might think they are too good for you or that there is some sort of catch.

This is why I think college halls, fraternities and particularly the workplace are environments you are more likely to find a dual in than one's interest groups. While churches I hear can be effective, I would view young women from liberal Protestant churches or the Catholic church with the same suspicion that I would those from a Marxist party chapter. I was fortunate to have a mostly positive experience when I interned at a film unit last year, so my suggestion would be to look of a workplace where people from different departments, and of different levels of seniority interact socially after work. Generic clubs, meetups and online dating are not an effective way to form intimate relationships, because they are too casual and easy to cancel out of.

[End]

I didn’t call her. I like spending time with her. I like her a lot. But I don’t see her as wife material, so going out with her would be very unfair to her.

They say that people can tell in the first thirty seconds of meeting whether or not a person has long term potential. She has long term potential as a friend/date, but that’s it.

You could say I’m overthinking this, but going out with her would also distract me from finding a woman whom I think could be wife material. So it’s also kind of selfish.

I do believe you are overthinking. It's just a theory/conceit of mine but the commitment decision should be left to the introvert. If she (whom I assume is introverted) thinks that you have long term potential, than ya actually do.

After all, you already like her a lot. And believe you me, us introverts think very, very long and hard in regards to this question. We are well and fully aware of the limits of time and how every moment actually counts. In regards to the potential father/mother of our children, well, let's just say that we're very keen on ensuring the offspring experience the happiest of family environments provided we're not dramatically psychologically damaged.

This could be an entirely gamma thing, but that's just how I view things. The girl I'm crushing on may well become my wife. I had best be damn sure she is fit for that role. Beauty fades, but personality is forever. The instant I think she'd be a bad mother? Instant drop. If I was a girl... The instant I think he'd be a bad father? Dropped. I like to keep it simple and direct.