I don't get dual relationships (duality)

[Moonbeaux Rainfox]

However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.

Yeah... I agree, it‘s important. FTR I have a different outlook than this excerpt. Tried to skim the surface of what I was thinking in the last paragraph, but it’s kinda hard to put into words. Idealization, fantasy it just irritates me. It can open door for every kind of bullshit. Illusions, idealization can be exploited. It‘s just mist. People can talk and bullshit, whatever. It‘s not real and I’m sorry but the mist, the castle in the sky, is giving me nothing. There are some things you cannot derive from any system. There are things, you just have to know within yourself. When I think about real... it’s like a feeling deep in my gut. Stuff that cannot be put into words. You just know, that... there is deep caring for someone, that there is respect for someone and that it’s real with another person.

Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.

Yeah Yeah Yeah... super-ego etc. socionics. See how much can you really now about a person from the start? How much can you now about yourself at a certain stage in your life? You cannot foresee everything. See people get together for various reasons. Some seek stability, to realize it was not what the truly needed. Some seek stabilty, because it‘s exactly what they need. It can go every way. Everybody has their reasons for something. Sometimes outsiders don‘t know about that. You cannot know what might make a person seek out sth. what kind of things they carry with them. Sometimes some relationships (not just romantic) are needed. It’s reality in life often enough, people get together, things turn out to be not so ideal, doesn‘t mean they were not real.

But I think I get it, looking at it from the Socionics angle. Super-Ego. Like Super Ego functions being the functions with the societal expectation. People who might look at a pair from the outside and everything seems fitting or ok, but in their intimate, private sphere it‘s actually not. Then people might stay together because of kids or because of being afraid of being alone or because they believe they can make it work or because of sth else. I don't know if duality is the answer for everything. I think things can be sometimes more complex, a lot of things can happen, nobody knows the answer to it all. Nobody has the manual how it should be going. Idk... Sometimes you don‘t always get what you want. Sometimes if you try, you might get what you need

Yeah maybe this is the sad, hard and depressing reality of a lot of people, that it’s not Hollywood cliche, but staying together to raise kids. That just doesn’t sound so nice and yeah it’s maybe not good for the person involved, but it‘s their decision and I believe in life it’s often about you and your decisions. I also believe there are often more layers to anything. Sometimes even if it's people are no good for each other, but still people care about each other. I mean what they have is still real... even if there is conflict and idk... but that of course is hard. Like it would be easier to just hate the other person. That’s probably where you can go all cynical ‚that‘s why caring sucks‘. maybe that's where it's 'dialectical', things look ok from the outside, but from the inside?

Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.

Ah yeah... back to duality. See sometimes this is for me, just how it is at times. Real life relationships. I mean you know stuff like how women from poorer countries marry men in order to stay in the country. How stuff is, how relationships can be. Not how everything is so nice and yes I know... that’s actually sad. How people can be this unhappy and still have to carry on. How life can grind people to the ground, how you can be unhappy in this subdued way. Maybe that’s why I added the last part. Like... how you have to believe in something even if (well at least for me) it sounds quite to ideal and yeah I get your point, to find something real inside the fantasy. So yeah long story short. Life can suck, but it shouldn't suck everything out of you. Hopes whatever... Boah idk... I have no clue. I’m just throwing stuff on the wall... Like I have no idea.

[Myst]

Furthermore, often these relations are socionics driven as well, such as super-ego, benefit, supervision. Many different relations can maintain a stable whole for a short to very long period of time, however duality is a stable relation that should reduce in anxiety and conflict over time.

However this only works with mutual respect, and this respect between individuals must go beyond idealization and fantasy.

Duality is not only defined by this dialectical bond, but also the strength and durability of the bond and growing respect.

Absolutely, I notice the same thing, this is definitely needed for duality, it's not magic that removes the need for mutual respect.

[Beautiful sky]

V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring.[B][I] Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

@Eliza Thomason What do you think of the above?

[Eliza Thomason]

V.G. This is it, relations between duals are dialectic, they both love and hate each other. This is unavoidable. Dual relations are synthesis of the opposites. This struggle is unavoidable.
Is there any way to get rid of these painful contradictions between duals, in principle?
Audience: Um, may be, perhaps, likely not ...
V.G. In principle it's impossible. It's possible to smooth them out, by correct distribution of roles in dual pair for example, but it's impossible to remove them. This, precisely, is life; these contradictions give dual relations a special tint, without it they would have been boring.[B][I] Periodically contradictions arise, they get resolved, come up, get resolved, come up, get resolved again - this is dialectical contradictory synthesis. Considering that this is the union and the struggle of the opposites, duals often come together over conflict. At first, they fight one another, raise scandals, sort out relations, then suddenly they feel a pull towards each other. This is how it happens, such is nature.

@Eliza Thomason What do you think of the above?

I might write more later but for now will just say - I don't see hate with my dh, only at times, yes, annoyance, annoyance with him just being who he is. Like explaining a thing too much like a professor giving a lecture. We do come to conflict, like over design (we are building a room with many aspects) and we are learning how to synthesize for sure. His SEI )self-type from quiz) granddaughter said, "You two are so funny. You argue, then you call each other dear." Yes, because the conflict is about the thing, the disagreement, and its not the person that annoys. And this from her was not a criticism; I could see our way made her feel secure and comfortable. Yes, we "dear" all day even just after arguing.

He is louder than me, and I don't like loud, and I tell him "I am not deaf", or if there is any strife in the arguing I turn my back and walk away and say, "I don't want to talk now. Lets talk later when you are not mad." He sees the real effect of "loud" and "strife" on me and he changes immediately - so he can continue if he is so motivated. And we continue the "fight" but with the gentler voices and less-strife that I need.

Anyway, and so we learn about each other, and the "Don't let the sun go down on your anger" that seemed so impossible to achieve with my ex (he was loud and had a major anger issue) has never been an issue here. Never a question. I am never annoyed at sundown, nor is he. The annoyance, maybe what VG calls "hate", doesn't last. I guess frankly I get my way a lot, but I feel so MUCH gratitude that I can express my full opinion on a thing, that my way matters, as I have never been able to before in my life, except in moments with friends, but not in day-to-day real life. And so I love him more, and want to please him who I love more and who pleases me.

A couple of times - design arguments have gotten complicated, like recently he was introducing an well-developed for a problem we had discussed and he arrived at a solution all alone while I had nothing to do with what he worked on, so, no input from me. And He shows me, and its a lot to see, and meanwhile and he is "selling" it, with a lecture, and is not giving me a chance to comment, and he sees a negative comment is about to come out from me and he anticipates, and rabbles on with his explanation and tries to overrule, saying, to acknowledge I am trying to say something, "I am going to win this one!" and I say, annoyed, "Why is it about winning?? Its about communicating and collaborating." And so we communicate. I get my way plenty, then I ask, was I not right? And I was. We both know it. But if he truly does not like my idea, no matter how much I like it I definitely don't push because I want him to be happywith the outcome. I know there will be something we find we both like, we just haven't thought of it yet. The solution, when we both still like our idea better, or I am rejecting his, or he mine, is to table it, and look/wait for another way.

The biggest design one was we could not agree on the way to make a wall of cabinets, and tabled it, so long. He worked on the other wall, with the window seat cabinets instead, since the other wall ideas were stalled. Then months after, last month, we were watching Inspector Morse, and I saw VERY brief scene with a wall at Oxford that was EXACTLY the thing, and he agreed, drew up a design, and we both love it and are going with it. Its so exhilarating to arrive at a thing we are both enthusiastic about, a result of collaborating our strengths, which are different. We are both artistic, but he is orderly, mathematical, and I am lyrical. We both like balance of design, but I approach it completely differently, as in the composition of a painting, and just "knowing", while his is planned and logical. And certain overly-mathematical compositions I STRONGLY object to. [Sometime if anyone is interested I will explain about his quintifoil idea - our first design disagreement] ... Anyway, we always -eventually - arrive at something we BOTH think is right, and are both quite satisfied.

Maybe if I can figure out a way I will post somewhere the several scaled complete design ideas he drew up for this wall that gave us so much trouble, all the rejected designs, and finally what we are doing....

[Beautiful sky]

I might write more later but for now will just say - I don't see hate with my dh, only at times, yes, annoyance, annoyance with him just being who he is. Like explaining a thing too much like a professor giving a lecture. We do come to conflict, like over design (we are building a room with many aspects) and we are learning how to synthesize for sure. His SEI )self-type from quiz) granddaughter said, "You two are so funny. You argue, then you call each other dear." Yes, because the conflict is about the thing, the disagreement, and its not the person that annoys. And this from her was not a criticism; I could see our way made her feel secure and comfortable. Yes, we "dear" all day even just after arguing.

He is louder than me, and I don't like loud, and I tell him "I am not deaf", or if there is any strife in the arguing I turn my back and walk away and say, "I don't want to talk now. Lets talk later when you are not mad." He sees the real effect of "loud" and "strife" on me and he changes immediately - so he can continue if he is so motivated. And we continue the "fight" but with the gentler voices and less-strife that I need.

Anyway, and so we learn about each other, and the "Don't let the sun go down on your anger" that seemed so impossible to achieve with my ex (he was loud and had a major anger issue) has never been an issue here. Never a question. I am never annoyed at sundown, nor is he. The annoyance, maybe what VG calls "hate", doesn't last. I guess frankly I get my way a lot, but I feel so MUCH gratitude that I can express my full opinion on a thing, that my way matters, as I have never been able to before in my life, except in moments with friends, but not in day-to-day real life. And so I love him more, and want to please him who I love more and who pleases me.

A couples of times (design arguments - he is introducing an idea he arrived at alone and not giving me a chance to comment, and a negative comment is about to come out and he anticipates and rabbles on with his explanation and tries to overrule, saying, to acknowledge I am trying to say something, "I am going to win this one!" and I say, annoyed, "Why is it about winning?? Its about communicating and collaborating." And so we communicate. I get my way a lot, then I ask, was I not right? And I was. But if he truly does not like it I definitely don't push because I want him to be happywith the outcome. The solution when we both still like our idea better, or I am rejecting his or he mine, is to table it, and look for another way. We could not agree on the way to make a wall of cabinets, and tabled it, so long. He worked on the other wall, with the window seat cabinets instead. Then months after, last month, we were watching Inspector Morse, and I saw VERY brief seen with a wall at Oxford that was EXACTLY the thing, and he agreed, drew up a design, and we both love it and are going with it. Its so exhilarating to arrive at a thing we are both enthusiastic about, a result of collaborating our strengths, which are different. Maybe if I can figure out a way I will post somewhere the several complete design ideas he came up with for this wall, till we happily got there...

He should leave the design up to you. Doesn't he know better?

[Eliza Thomason]

He should leave the design up to you. Doesn't he know better?

Well, we both always designed without collaborating, both being the only designer in our families. But we both bring these design skills, and so we collaborate.

An art teacher friend of mine has an architect husband, not a dual, a good match though, and they were at odds with home design all the time and usually it took her giving in, as arriving at a compromise most of the time was too difficult. With two designers, its harder. Though I think its IMPORTANT for the husband to give in to the wife on this, and I think her husband was wrong here. He is a good guy in plenty other ways.

Yes, I would say in general home design is the wife's domain. Of course, you agree, when the husband is better at this, as in an architect, or more interested, his input is important. My EII friend with her SLE husband - she let him do it, MOSTLY, for compelling reasons. But there was the time he picked out kitchen backsplash tile without her - and installed it while she was out for the day - she got home as he and his buddy (that she did not like) were finishing the job. And that was her limit. She called me and asked me to help her PULL IT ALL OFF" quick, while it was wet and while he was out on a call... and I did...

[HotSauce]

OK.. new to socionics, not new to personality typing. I am a SEE gal involved with a guy who, as of this morning, is an ILI. Woohoo yeah! Duals!

Ahem. This thread seems to assume that ILI's never leave the house? And that SEEs party 24 hours a day? Everybody has got to pay bills, go to work, everyone has friends, co-workers, and interests. If there are only 16 types of people out there, odds are ILI and SEE will run into each other at some point.

My ILI is a high school math teacher and sports coach. He is very good at what he does. He has a group of nerdy (I say that with love) friends who share the same varied tastes in music, and they go to live music events and little hole in the wall pubs together a few times a month. They discuss the best beer brands, and vodka and talk about music and tell stories about things in the past. I absolutely love hanging out with them, and I am usually the only person drunkenly dancing next to them, but who cares. My point is, he is not a weird anti-social hermit, although he does need a good amount of down time and is perfectly content just chillin on the couch all day...but I am too, because we get to snuggle and talk about stuff.

I also don't party every night, but I'm a mom, with a somewhat serious job. I do LOVE the hell out of social event though.

[Olimpia]

OK.. new to socionics, not new to personality typing. I am a SEE gal involved with a guy who, as of this morning, is an ILI. Woohoo yeah! Duals!

Ahem. This thread seems to assume that ILI's never leave the house? And that SEEs party 24 hours a day? Everybody has got to pay bills, go to work, everyone has friends, co-workers, and interests. If there are only 16 types of people out there, odds are ILI and SEE will run into each other at some point.

My ILI is a high school math teacher and sports coach. He is very good at what he does. He has a group of nerdy (I say that with love) friends who share the same varied tastes in music, and they go to live music events and little hole in the wall pubs together a few times a month. They discuss the best beer brands, and vodka and talk about music and tell stories about things in the past. I absolutely love hanging out with them, and I am usually the only person drunkenly dancing next to them, but who cares. My point is, he is not a weird anti-social hermit, although he does need a good amount of down time and is perfectly content just chillin on the couch all day...but I am too, because we get to snuggle and talk about stuff.

I also don't party every night, but I'm a mom, with a somewhat serious job. I do LOVE the hell out of social event though.

This sounds like he is the Te subtype, and you the Fi subtype.

If he was the Ni subtype (strongly), he surely would fit the "hermit" stereotype of ILI more accurately.
Same for SEE-Se being more of the party-girl/guy than SEE-Fi (though it depends).

[mu4]

They just seem so...blunt, unrealistic.
There's a fine idea going on in the theory itself. Two people valuing similar functions help each other to prosper and grow. The weak function can count on their partner's strengths and and vice versa. The two don't devalue each other because they know they need wha the other partner have. But... looking at it more realistically.

How can for example an ILI ever meet an SEE. SEEs are stereotypically the adventurous, party loving extroverts. ILIs are analytical, deep and intelligent beings who enjoy their alone time to think and to recharge. I just don't see how this is supposed to work.
Another example IEIs and SLEs. they both value Se and Ti, Ni and Fe. SLE's Ni is weak, IEI's Se is weak. Now imagine a football player going to the quiet girl in the corner who just finishes her poem for the creative writing class when he suddenly starts to talk about how he scored zillion and one on the game and then talks about football rules and buddies from the team. What is the poor girl supposed to do, when she's interested in art and poetry and doesn't give a damn about his football game?
Those are just few examples, but looking at it realistically. I can hardly imagine an artistic senstive people grouping up with impulsive sportmen, or analytcal educated men hooking up with the "live of the party" girls.


So...how is this suppoused to work?...In real life?

I'm working on translating some articles one of which does talk about some things you might have questions about.

http://socionics.kiev.ua/articles/fe...oup/ascension/

1. Research relations.

This group includes THAT, WE, IN, SW. Their task - to the knowledge of the world, its fundamental laws and themselves through a comparison with other people. Being in that relationship, the man is better than alone, compares, analyzes, classifies, and tests the hypothesis put forward.
Research relations trained mental position in the formula type. The term "mentality" I am here not in the sense of using Ausra, a sense of "belonging to the mental processes" (see. My work [5]). I refer to the mental 1, 2, 7 and 8 positions of the socionic model.
1. 1. Heavy studies.

Identical (TO) - In these respects, people are attracted to a community of interests. However, to understand the other, it becomes uninteresting. The identity of the evolving understanding of the competition in the mental sphere. To discuss attracted the most unique, controversial issues.
Mirror (WE) - always open the second side of the "medal". Wear analytical, allow to solve the most complex theoretical cognitive problems. A heavy load on the mental functions of the partners. There is a deep insight into the subject oboyudointeresnogo.
Couple relationship occurs when the original type to join the other two types, interacting only through it as through a communicative center. Thus, the process of heavy research should be specially selected to model in the triad. Here are some examples of these types of triads for the Quartet of the right ring extroverted progress:

IL		ET		FR		PS
IL	LI	ET	TE	FR	RF	PS	SP

1. 2. Lightweight research.

Repayments (TO) - review, critique each other's positions, the message is interesting and useful information, the accumulation of information.
Quasiidentities (HF) - verification, experimentation. The ratio of different business activity, initiative and curiosity. That's what the triad obtained lung research for our chosen way of example Quartet evoekstravertov:

IL		ET		FR		PS
TP	PT	RI	IR	SE	ES	LF	FL

Research relations underlie the "youth" of marriage - psychologically immature. Many young people enter into marriage with their fellows on the basis of the general enthusiasm - usually music, fashion clothing, leisure.Despite the fact that sometimes it is stable (especially if the partners belong to the same quadra - WHAT WE), it should be taken no more than approbation relations experiment to create a family.

2. Social relations.

Four relationships include social orientation control, AC, EC, SC. Designed to fit into society, to create a family, to have a circle of friends, find your group. In these respects burden placed on the vital position in the formula type.
It should be noted that I use the term "vital" not like Ausra, but in the sense of "belonging to the process are satisfied in the first place the needs of everyday life." By vital positions, ie. E. Those which are responsible for adaptation of the real human society, I refer positions 3, 4, 5, 6.
2. 1. Light sociality.

Duality (control) - having a small family living separately from other relatives. In the foreground - the convenience, minimal effort while maximizing getting on with everyone in the home.
Activation (AK) - a large family or friends with whom you meet on holidays. First of all, a large number of emotionally charged contacts and real caring for each other. Examples triads simulating communication in society lightweight (truncated quadra):

IL		ET		FR		PS
SE	ES	LF	FL	TP	PT	RI	IR

2. 2. A hard sociality.

Superego (SE) - creates a lot of inconvenience in everyday life, leisure activities. Partners encounter rejection of its vital habits. Frequent unmotivated outbursts of emotion. This communicative situation razvorotlivym be coached in life, get comfortable against the resistance of others.
Conflict (CP) - helps to survive in poor conditions of existence, hostile environment, in a word - in a difficult society. Trains are not razvorotlivost flexibility and resistance and tolerance to strenuous relations. The paradox of this kind of conflict that are looking for partners or unwittingly create problems themselves, which give rise to tensions, to unite to overcome them.
Triad heavy society as an example:

IL		ET		FR		PS
FR	RF	PS	SP	IL	LI	ET	TE

[Olimpia]

Duality (control) - having a small family living separately from other relatives. In the foreground - the convenience, minimal effort while maximizing getting on with everyone in the home.
Activation (AK) - a large family or friends with whom you meet on holidays. First of all, a large number of emotionally charged contacts and real caring for each other.

Reading this, I might actually prefer Activation over Duality. Could be related to me being Social instinct first, and not SO blindspot (which the Duality description here sounds more like).

[HotSauce]

Reading this, I might actually prefer Activation over Duality. Could be related to me being Social instinct first, and not SO blindspot (which the Duality description here sounds more like).

I have two ENTJ friends. My best guy friend in the world is an ENTJ and we have been friends since we were teenagers. Activation ROCKS. We work really well together and always get each others point of view very well. It's a very seamless relationship, and no matter how much time passes, it's like we are on the same wavelength. If I had a project to complete or if I had an idea for a new business venture I would only feel comfortable going full throttle with an ENTJ by my side.

HOWEVER...after having a couple of romantic escapades with ENTJs (not my ENTJ friends - random ENTJ guys I've met, I can smell them a mile away) I can say that I find ENTJs need signs of romantic loyalty from me that I don't naturally give. ENTJs are really sensitive about betrayal at the end of the day - and even really jealous. That Te can make judgement calls about my behavior that are way off base.

With my INTP boyfriend, if I casually talk to some guy at the bar while he goes to the mens room, he's fine with it, he knows I'm there with him. He will return and say "Hey babe" and wrap his arm around me.

With an ENTJ? Talk to a random guy at the bar while he is in the mens room, and he will be ready to dump you.

[HotSauce]

Doesn't it really come down to that the SEE wants someone who can plan, tell them about stuff and what's going to happen, and the ILI wants someone who is fun, inquisitive, positive, and knows what to do in the moment?

[Kenthalas]

As an ILI who was recently in a relationship with an SEE, I may be able to provide some insight into this. SEE and ILI can meet one another through any of the normal means that people meet each other; in my case, it was introduction by a mutual friend. As far as how the relationships work out, this is my first relationship since learning socionics (and the SEE is actually the one who taught me about it), so I have only this one experience from which to draw examples. For me, I'm rather quiet and withdrawn most of the time. My SEE ex and I met at a party, and I was sitting in the corner generally ignoring the party, while she repeatedly tried to engage with me and I rebuffed her. It was only after the party, the next morning, when we woke up that I started to find her more interesting. I spoke to her on a one-to-one basis and was immediately attracted to her charm and spirit. A few weeks later, we started dating, and we did have quite a bit of difficulty, I will admit. The biggest problem we had was that I was interested in a long-term relationship, and she was not. The irony is that, even though, as an ILI, as you say, I'm supposed to value my alone time and such, I actually sought out way too much of her time, while she was much more interested in being alone. As often happens with ILIs, when we make attachments, we tend to make very strong attachments. Unfortunately for me, I was much more attached than she was, and so eventually she left me.

More directly to your question, I'm an educated, analytical man in every sense of the word. I'm a Master's student in Biology at the moment, and a former Air Force Intelligence analyst. It really was the vibrancy and energy of the SEE that drew me to her. It was her "life of the party" personality that was most attractive to me. She represented everything about the world that I had always lacked, a connection to other people and this sense of belonging that I didn't have, and could never find on my own. I can't answer for her side of what she found attractive about me, but at least from the point of view of your question, my experience seems fairly relevant.

[Beautiful sky]

@Myst her husband is SLI and she's an amazing typer

[Myst]

Yeah, he is really "The Craftsman". Craftsman need mathematics to craft, and to design and build homes and cabinetry, etc. He like math in its practical application, not when it gets more theoretical, like calculus. A Ti would be more interested in that. My son, a SLE [ SeTi], likes calculus, and physics too. And that's a difference, as my husband did not enjoy the more theoretical less practical math that is calculus.

Well, I am talking with my husband to confirm this, as I never even tried calculus, and he says calculus does have practical application but "its a little bit beyond me". He said even Algebra gets theoretical. He prefers the practical application of geometry. Also he did drafting in college and liked it, and took more than one course in it, whereas I took the one required, Drafting 101, and did not like the class as it was not easy for me to think in the required way. His drawings have that draftsman-like precision whereas mine are more organic.

I see.

But you are LSI! So - you like math, and particularly, delving very deeply into subjects? Gulenko calls you "The type most characterized by singular concentration is LSI." Wow. I have definitely seen this as I have a lot of LSIs in my life now, because of my husband, whose small circle is full of them - his brother, son and ex, whom we are all close to, and interact with a lot. His son impresses me with his singular concentration learning languages. He has really absorbed Latin this year and is onto Sanskrit. And he works on an organic farm, and wow can he weed! He was helping us one day, and I was surprised at his concentration! So I am curious, where does this amazing LSI "singular concentrated focus" show up for you?

Maths stuff is fine but I'm not theoretical enough to want to deal with it all day. (I'm able to do so if I have some goal with it, though, e.g. a competitive goal.) I do delve deeply into subjects that relate to actual reality enough, at least eventually.

Yeah, I have that concentration In anything I do. It's just how I work.

Btw, do you get along with them, how do you handle conflict relations?

Quintofoil idea -- since you quoted it, I'll explain. You will find this interesting as a Ti-dom math person. Apparently, our roof line I guess happens to be the same mathematical angle as the top of a pentagon. That end of the house we both agree "needs" an attic window, and he was enthused about an idea he had already conceived for this space - a pentagon. Because it fits the space perfectly! I immediately HATED the idea. I tried to entertain this idea out of respect for his idea, and make myself get used to it, but I just couldn't like it, no way, no how. It reminds me of the federal Pentagon building - not impressed - or a Dodge Ram truck or other Dodge car about to fall apart - not impressed - or a satanic symbol - totally don't want that. He suggested, okay, then a quintifoil flower. He wants something unique, reflecting his thought process, which is a SLI thing, I was not surprised to read. That little "unique unusual touch" they want to add to their craftsmen projects. And he introduces it into EVERY design plan, but I just can't get on board with them all. Particularly not this one. Even the flower. Its too much for this simple house. I tried to like it but I just had to say "no" to the pentagon. Fortunately he is okay with my alternative suggestion (which I think is the perfect window) of a horizontal oval. But we cannot afford this now and will just have to wait til our ship comes in, if it ever does, because we have other priorities.

Lol I find that idea strange, tbh. I would have instantly said no too, unless it wasn't some random suggestion but fitting everything else. OK, I could see that as demonstrative Ti (which is what SLI has). But Ti, nonetheless

Here, this is your Dual interacting with my SLI. Its pretty funny:

Thanks for the video =)

So you see MBTI ISTP as SLI, yeah? I remember you starting a thread on that issue a while ago at PerC. I find it funny how many people just mindlessly apply that j/p switch idea without first examining its validity for themselves and then creating a lot of confusion with that.

@Myst her husband is SLI and she's an amazing typer

I'm not sure why you felt the need to comment in such a non-factual way, some subjective opinion that I can't really do anything with on its own. Not saying it must not be true, just saying I have no way to verify from your statements alone.

[Eliza Thomason]

...Maths stuff is fine but I'm not theoretical enough to want to deal with it all day. (I'm able to do so if I have some goal with it, though, e.g. a competitive goal.) I do delve deeply into subjects that relate to actual reality enough, at least eventually.

Yeah, I have that concentration In anything I do. It's just how I work..

That's nice.

..., do you get along with them, how do you handle conflict relations?.

Well, we do not share a household or collaborate day to day. I like them all; we get along great! But I won't be pushing it! I have read on this site, re: getting along with Conflictors, that if working on the same project together its best to work on different aspects, not the same aspect together. So I will keep that in mind.

... Lol I find that idea strange, tbh. I would have instantly said no too, unless it wasn't some random suggestion but fitting everything else..

Yeah, I wanted to please, cringed inside, and wondered if there was SOME way I could ever like it, and was glad this was not a priority in the near future, but only brainstorming, so there was need to shoot it down right away... Anyway I have gotten bolder about saying my opinion over time. And the good thing is, he generally likes my ideas.

. OK, I could see that as demonstrative Ti (which is what SLI has). But Ti, nonetheless .

.Thanks for the video =).

Glad you like it.

.So you see MBTI ISTP as SLI, yeah? I remember you starting a thread on that issue a while ago at PerC..

That was forever ago. I can hardly remember what I wrote there. I do remember a few being adamant that you cannot correlate MBTI/Socionics, and some (probably LIIs since they like things done in proper form) did not feel Socionics should be discussed there, so I thought it right to respect that, and since my interest in Socionics was far superseding my MBTI interest I came here (even though I was comfortable there). The type connection between the two varies by type, and there is percentages posted somewhere. But whatever the percentages, it tends to be the same, for me, almost always. I suspect this is possibly because I learned MBTI long ago from books describing the theory in detail, vs. shorter internet articles, and so I am typing MBTI differently than many. I have intended to analyze that someday, but more and more things are pulling me in other directions.

. I find it funny how many people just mindlessly apply that j/p switch idea without first examining its validity for themselves and then creating a lot of confusion with that. .

I didn't know people were even doing that. I think its another aspect where some are taking a different typing approach than me. Then I find it too hard to follow their thinking process. (Maybe it takes too much Ti to do that, for my comfort!)

[Olimpia]

That was forever ago. I can hardly remember what I wrote there. I do remember a few being adamant that you cannot correlate MBTI/Socionics, and some (probably LIIs since they like things done in proper form) did not feel Socionics should be discussed there, so I thought it right to respect that, and since my interest in Socionics was far superseding my MBTI interest I came here (even though I was comfortable there). The type connection between the two varies by type, and there is percentages posted somewhere. But whatever the percentages, it tends to be the same, for me, almost always. I suspect this is possibly because I learned MBTI long ago from books describing the theory in detail, vs. shorter internet articles, and so I am typing MBTI differently than many. I have intended to analyze that someday, but more and more things are pulling me in other directions.

[Pink]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience.

I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

The male SLE that was easy to get along with was a top salesman. He had a very alluring, compelling, and attractive energy that radiated off of him. He has broken records in Sales, and just overall is great at what he does. We worked well together, and although sometimes his use of Se made him come off bossy and forceful, we had peaceful relations. (I sometimes wonder if he might have been SEE instead, though. He would like to engage in gossip, and would act nice in front of someone's face, and then shit talk them the next moment. I can't decipher if that's just weak Fi or Fi gone "wrong" in SEE).

The other male SLEs were an absolute nightmare to work with. They over-exerted their Se, long story short, they were pretty much self absorbed dicks. I'm pretty sure the main reason why I found them unenjoyable to work with is probably factors that go beyond socionics types, such as Narcissism, Sociopathy, etc.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around. Humans are just not that simple.

[Sol]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience. I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around.

most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

[Olimpia]

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.

Simply agree.

most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

Partly disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say most Duals of the opposite sex are pleasant. There are many more factors influencing compatibility besides Socionics.
But I'd say that most Duals won't be unpleasant as long as you are not totally turned off by each other due to reasons outside the intertype relation itself.

[Sol]

Partly disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say most Duals of the opposite sex are pleasant. There are many more factors influencing compatibility besides Socionics

Other factos don't change the situation that most duals are personally pleasant in common communication. Such is in my experience and there is no theory to think other. To get opposite result should be generally rare. For closer relations the importance of other factors may to rise. With common communications negative factos are suppressed by the culture, so effects even of bad IR are minimized.

But I'd say that most Duals won't be unpleasant as long as you are not totally turned off by each other due to reasons outside the intertype relation itself.

It's also doubtful to use "neutral impression" category for most duals. If you'll pay attention on IR related effects - you'll notice them and they will be pleasant from duals in normal IRL communications.

[Pink]

There is meaningful possibility those where not your duals. Mistyping is common.



most duals of opposite sex are pleasant. in close relations more than any other type

Oh, definitely there's a possibility that I may have them mistyped. From my understanding of Socionics though and my analysis of their character and personalities, I am quite sure they were Beta ST men. Their Se was so raw, natural, forceful, and powerful to deny it as their dominant function. They shared many, many similarities to the pleasant SLE that I enjoyed working with.

The differences with these men, there was just something terribly off and terrifying about them. As @Jarno mentioned, un-human. I don't believe I've ever experienced working alongside so many narcissistic, sociopathic men in my life.. I admired their abilities and their talents, they excelled in areas that I lacked (reaching quotas, forceful tactics, etc), and I excelled in areas of Ethics where they lacked. Their self-interests and inhumane acts became too unbearable to handle.

The last sentence you wrote there, may or may not be true.. But, what if I am the one who is mistyped? That's the issue I have with Socionics.

[Jarno]

After having the opportunity to work with multiple Beta ST men, my romanticized view on duality has been destroyed. It was an eye opening experience.

I worked closely alongside three male SLEs. I got along well with only one of them. The other two, I found repulsive.

The male SLE that was easy to get along with was a top salesman. He had a very alluring, compelling, and attractive energy that radiated off of him. He has broken records in Sales, and just overall is great at what he does. We worked well together, and although sometimes his use of Se made him come off bossy and forceful, we had peaceful relations. (I sometimes wonder if he might have been SEE instead, though. He would like to engage in gossip, and would act nice in front of someone's face, and then shit talk them the next moment. I can't decipher if that's just weak Fi or Fi gone "wrong" in SEE).

The other male SLEs were an absolute nightmare to work with. They over-exerted their Se, long story short, they were pretty much self absorbed dicks. I'm pretty sure the main reason why I found them unenjoyable to work with is probably factors that go beyond socionics types, such as Narcissism, Sociopathy, etc.

You won't find every "dual" you'll meet enjoyable to be around. Humans are just not that simple.

yes, a person with a disorder is by definition almost non-human. they can only screw you up. I've dated a borderline esfp, completely useless relationship.

[consentingadult]

yes, a person with a disorder is by definition almost non-human. they can only screw you up. I've dated a borderline esfp, completely useless relationship.

I've dated a bordeline SLE once. Now I can't go back...

https://youtu.be/3dGhsRsHXP8?t=4m21s

[Beautiful sky]

duals support each others weakness especially socially

[Olimpia]

For instance, I am politically Liberal and value political compatibility highly, probably more highly than the average person.
I am friends with a male Conservative SLE on Facebook. While I could never be with someone like him in a long-term romantic relationship due to our opposite political views, I still enjoy his "presence" and energy.

[weirdleftovers]

How did this thread turn into a discussion about people living with mental disorders. Mental disorders come and go in the psychiatric community; transgender was once a disorder along with black slaves seeking freedom. Furthermore, politics, religion and social values often create, define and influence what is considered mentally healthy. With the latest DSM update, many personality disorders no longer exist in their original form. Next year, we may be considered as people with mental disorders because we interact on forums. Unless you have a degree and are a practicing, mental health professional, keep the rude "diagnosis" to yourself because such comments only perpetuate the mental health stigma.

*Disclaimer: I am only speaking about my personal, real-life experiences with people I know. Generalizations are specific to the aforementioned. Others "resonating", or "relating" with these experiences--often given in anecdotal form--is not expected or the point.*

As to the original post, duality is natural and doesn't take work. I met my first SLE boyfriend while walking home minding my business. He pulled up, like an interloper, and gave me his number. I can only speak about myself and SLEs, but meeting them isn't hard. They've been initially attracted or interested in me because I seem lost in thought or preoccupied with something other than them. They've wanted to know why I'm not impressed by them. They've been curious about me looking disheveled or odd in public. These all lead to the chase. They ask questions and I give short, uninterested answers, which only leads to more prodding.

In school I did notice SLEs staring at me. They always gave me the same look. If they were interested I wouldn't know because of the need to maintain social hierarchy and date the populars. It was probably more lack of attraction; I wasn't feminine at all and looked and dressed like a stem (stud/femme mix). As an sx 4, I'm too competitive and envious to be impressed by anyone, so I never gushed and cooed over an SLEs, only showed indifference. This attitude helped nothing.

Betas often want and encourage all to participate in social settings (parties, get-togethers, friends hanging out, etc), so when someone isn't involved, they (we) try to engage them. With IEI-Ni, this lack of participation happens often. We may be lost in thought, distracted or uninterested. SLEs notice this and will attempt to engage us, which leads to the chase. All quadras have their main characteristic or focus in which all the types operate, creating an attraction without trying.

I think duality works best with people who know themselves and are honest about who they are including recognizing their weaknesses. If you're lying to yourself or don't like yourself, you might find duality difficult to achieve. Yes, this is true for any relationship regardless the type, but it's especially true for duality. I had to overcome what I felt was introvert discrimination. I had to become honest about who I was, which was challenging. I felt overwhelmed and dismissed by a society that seemed to favor the extrovert, the logical and the physically inclined. I had to learn my value and my strength while accepting my weaknesses. In doing this, I began to realize the benefit of being with an extrovert and the limitations that went with me chronically dating introverts. Dating fellow introverts was familiar and easy, but not helpful for my growth.

[Chae]

I see duality as a sort of redemption. It happens when one taps into their DS/HA on their own as well, much like Roy Batty (SLE) in Blade Runner is redeemed after a catharsis of NiFe.

[Adam Strange]

I'm a planner. I try to get as much information as possible about a path to a goal before undertaking a project. It's just what I do.

Yesterday I called an ESI buddy of mine to ask him what he thought went wrong in my failed attempt to get date with a female ESI. He immediately said the problem I'm having is that I'm too ugly, and I should just send her over to him.

I ignored this idiot's advice and said that the problem, according to her, was that I asked her out to dinner with just a few hours notice, and no way in hell was she going anywhere on that short a notice.

He goes, "That's weird. So, did you ask her out in a week?"

"No. How much time do you think you'd need to get mentally prepared for a date?"

"If she's pretty, about one microsecond. Where does this girl live? I'm available and I'm incredibly handsome."

"She lives close to you and you guys are almost twins and I'm not giving you her address. Look, how much time do you think she'd need?"

"Dude, you are overthinking this. Just ask her out again for next week, and if she says No again, then there's your answer."

So I'm overthinking this, according to an ESI himself. Apparently, an ESI just JUMPS AT THE RABBIT when making dating decisions.

This explains so much.

[Myst]

I'm a planner. I try to get as much information as possible about a path to a goal before undertaking a project. It's just what I do.

Yesterday I called an ESI buddy of mine to ask him what he thought went wrong in my failed attempt to get date with a female ESI. He immediately said the problem I'm having is that I'm too ugly, and I should just send her over to him.

I ignored this idiot's advice and said that the problem, according to her, was that I asked her out to dinner with just a few hours notice, and no way in hell was she going anywhere on that short a notice.

He goes, "That's weird. So, did you ask her out in a week?"

"No. How much time do you think you'd need to get mentally prepared for a date?"

"If she's pretty, about one microsecond. Where does this girl live? I'm available and I'm incredibly handsome."

"She lives close to you and you guys are almost twins and I'm not giving you her address. Look, how much time do you think she'd need?"

"Dude, you are overthinking this. Just ask her out again for next week, and if she says No again, then there's your answer."

So I'm overthinking this, according to an ESI himself. Apparently, an ESI just JUMPS AT THE RABBIT when making dating decisions.

This explains so much.

Err, this goes way beyond Socionics's little model. Men vs women ...... a lot of difference in how the two sexes get socialised, a lot of different expectations etc.

I agree though with the buddy, it's overthinking. Let us know how it went with the girl.

[Adam Strange]

Err, this goes way beyond Socionics's little model. Men vs women ...... a lot of difference in how the two sexes get socialised, a lot of different expectations etc.

I agree though with the buddy, it's overthinking. Let us know how it went with the girl.

I didn’t call her. I like spending time with her. I like her a lot. But I don’t see her as wife material, so going out with her would be very unfair to her.

They say that people can tell in the first thirty seconds of meeting whether or not a person has long term potential. She has long term potential as a friend/date, but that’s it.

You could say I’m overthinking this, but going out with her would also distract me from finding a woman whom I think could be wife material. So it’s also kind of selfish.

[End]

I didn’t call her. I like spending time with her. I like her a lot. But I don’t see her as wife material, so going out with her would be very unfair to her.

They say that people can tell in the first thirty seconds of meeting whether or not a person has long term potential. She has long term potential as a friend/date, but that’s it.

You could say I’m overthinking this, but going out with her would also distract me from finding a woman whom I think could be wife material. So it’s also kind of selfish.

I do believe you are overthinking. It's just a theory/conceit of mine but the commitment decision should be left to the introvert. If she (whom I assume is introverted) thinks that you have long term potential, than ya actually do.

After all, you already like her a lot. And believe you me, us introverts think very, very long and hard in regards to this question. We are well and fully aware of the limits of time and how every moment actually counts. In regards to the potential father/mother of our children, well, let's just say that we're very keen on ensuring the offspring experience the happiest of family environments provided we're not dramatically psychologically damaged.

This could be an entirely gamma thing, but that's just how I view things. The girl I'm crushing on may well become my wife. I had best be damn sure she is fit for that role. Beauty fades, but personality is forever. The instant I think she'd be a bad mother? Instant drop. If I was a girl... The instant I think he'd be a bad father? Dropped. I like to keep it simple and direct.

[Adam Strange]

I do believe you are overthinking. It's just a theory/conceit of mine but the commitment decision should be left to the introvert. If she (whom I assume is introverted) thinks that you have long term potential, than ya actually do.

After all, you already like her a lot. And believe you me, us introverts think very, very long and hard in regards to this question. We are well and fully aware of the limits of time and how every moment actually counts. In regards to the potential father/mother of our children, well, let's just say that we're very keen on ensuring the offspring experience the happiest of family environments provided we're not dramatically psychologically damaged.

This could be an entirely gamma thing, but that's just how I view things. The girl I'm crushing on may well become my wife. I had best be damn sure she is fit for that role. Beauty fades, but personality is forever. The instant I think she'd be a bad mother? Instant drop. If I was a girl... The instant I think he'd be a bad father? Dropped. I like to keep it simple and direct.

Lol, @End, thanks for that.

It is weird that you mentioned the requirement that a woman be a good mother. That was exactly the main criterion that I used in determining whether or not a woman has long-term potential.

When I met my ex-wife, she had several pluses and minuses.
The pluses were that she was intelligent, beautiful, thin, had a good work ethic, had fantastic taste in clothes and furnishings, and I thought she would make a good mother.

Minuses were that she wasn’t my “type”, she had had several rich BF’s before we met and none of them wanted to marry her, her family was a mess, she was kind of cold and remote, and she had a loud, weird laugh.

All of the negatives were overruled by the fact that I thought that she’d make an excellent mother. And she did.

Maybe this is a Gamma thing, I don’t know.

I’ve dated lots of women who don’t meet this criterion, or who don’t meet it in a way that I agree with. It’s not the only criterion, but it’s a big one.

[Rebelondeck]

Duality is rare in spousal relationships because, first and foremost, the human animal is programmed to reproduce; type compatibility won't show on most people's radar as will physical attractiveness (which is a very subjective measure). Socionics is better aimed at understanding the people and relationships that we already have in our lives - not as a divining rod for new relationships. However, it's not unusual for some N-types and for some F-types to ignore perfectly good relationships while they're in pursuit of highly improbable ideals.....

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

I still wonder how xLE should even find relationship something to strive for. According to the definition it should be something that tends to be highly non-important which it is. LXI can still play pretended relationships.

[Sol]

I still wonder how xLE should even find relationship something to strive for.

all functions represent a part of peoples' relations

> According to the definition it should be something that tends to be highly non-important which it is.

you do not understand what you read
for ILE as _lesser important_ are superego functions: Fi - personal sympathy/compassion, Se - material income
while superid are: Fe - admiration, emotional agitation, Si - to care good about pleasant sensantions

superid is what people seek in friendship the most

> LXI can still play pretended relationships

by role you may surfacely and nonstably to show something. in closer relations role is supressed often and LxI become lesser soft people
the best who may play "pretended relationships" in emotional part are F types. they'll smile you as "all is ok" and after the door is closed they may cheat. they may show good family to others - as they go on weekends to walk with kids, to place photos from vacations, together visit parrents regularly. but after they return to home - the both may stop to talk with each other. F types know what to do to give the needed emotional "image" of something "good"

[Lord Pixel]

I went on a date with an SLE, which is my conflictor. Reason I went on a date was because physically she was attractive, and she was very straight forward so she made approaching her simple and even gave silent but obvious invitations to approach her. Which is one thing I find refreshing about the aggressor romance style.

On the date so many red flags popped up that I became uncomfortable, trying to hold back from secretly judging her and feeling being indirectly judged. She wanted tons of tattoos all over her body, she ran away from home on a wim, called her mom stupid, called guys she dated in the past pussies for being "in their feelings", and said that anytime she had sex with someone she had to immediately leave, "flay away" she said, she chalked it up to daddy issues.

So I could quite easily feel the incompatibility between me and the Ep temperament, Se dom, and Ti creative.

So if conflictor can be so obviously not what you want, I'm guessing duality can be somewhat the opposite, if other things line up of course.

As far as how I've met duals, I would agree it's not so straight forward or easy. The most duals I've met were at church, which sound very steretypical for Si/Fi valuing conservative God and country types, and it is, and I like it that way lol. But other duals I have met were random like meeting other people, I do think they stand out to each other, the psychological easy makes the person easy to be around and that can be a reason why they standout, because of the ease that you have with a complete stranger. I've met duals at school, at a cafe, at work, it's never some "socionics established" place, location, or activity that I've met a dual, perhaps church is the only socionics predicted place other than that I've just met people. Maybe the only place I met 2 duals at once that was stereotypical was a military simulation company which was a very ST environment, but then again that was not my club or a place I'd choose to be normally.

I've seen an LIE and ESI meet at a tech convention where the LIE came in talking about companies he owned and investments he's made and ESI approached him looking for funding for a project, it was weird to see this very worldly and cultured venture capitalist talking to this skater kid and them becoming "cool" with each other lol. The way it looked was LIE was very boiterous and charismatic when talking to a group of people and then when talking to ESI he looked more like he was speaking secretly and off the record with someone he knew, even though they just met.

[Adam Strange]

I've seen an LIE and ESI meet at a tech convention where the LIE came in talking about companies he owned and investments he's made and ESI approached him looking for funding for a project, it was weird to see this very worldly and cultured venture capitalist talking to this skater kid and them becoming "cool" with each other lol. The way it looked was LIE was very boiterous and charismatic when talking to a group of people and then when talking to ESI he looked more like he was speaking secretly and off the record with someone he knew, even though they just met.

Yep, that’s me when I talk to people. Very public in front of a crowd, very one-on-one when speaking to a dual.

Actually, when I talk to a dual, they are the only important person in the room.

[Faith]

@Adam Strange
I don't know if you ppl think like this because its part of your culture or because its part of your type/quadra values or doesn't have anything to do with any of that, but it seems to me like you think in relationships and marriage as if you were doing a business or acquiring a product. Like if such way of viewing relationships assure you a "good purchase" or something like that, and in the moment your "product" doesn't work as you expected you just throw it out. I don't think that seeing relationships or ppl as products, goods or things is going to improve your experience in that area or reduce problems, I tend to think that its just going to increase them.

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange
I don't know if you ppl think like this because its part of your culture or because its part of your type/quadra values or doesn't have anything to do with any of that, but it seems to me like you think in relationships and marriage as if you were doing a business or acquiring a product.

@Ragdoll Lynx, I'm sure you will agree that all close relationships are between equals, or between people who trade things of equal value. I'll bet that you've never dated a homeless guy, or a criminal just out of jail, even though there are probably a few available male IEE's living on the edge of society who would like to meet you and your savings account.

Why have you not done this? Because the "numbers" that denominate his good and bad characteristics sum up to a much lower number than the sum of your "numbers". Is he tall? Ten points. Handsome? Twelve points. Wanted for armed robbery? Minus twenty points. Plays loud music late at night while entertaining his screaming drug customers? Minus thirty points. PhD? Plus eight points. And so on.

Like if such way of viewing relationships assure you a "good purchase" or something like that, and in the moment your "product" doesn't work as you expected you just throw it out. I don't think that seeing relationships or ppl as products, goods or things is going to improve your experience in that area or reduce problems, I tend to think that its just going to increase them.

Actually, when I first asked the SLI out, I thought she was a secretary. She said she worked for the University, and she looked so decorative that I assumed she was some professor's secretary. After a few dates, I found out that she was a Senior Systems Analyst in charge of a team of programmers and was making as much as I was. At that point, I told her that we were paying equally on our dates.

As for abandoning her when she didn't "work" as expected, when she got breast cancer and the University fired her for costing too much, I supported her without a doubt or a question until she got better and didn't need me any more. And when she moved out, I stayed faithful for years, trying to get her back. I never considered divorce as an option. Not for many years, until it finally became clear to me that she was happier living away from me.

I hope you are never in the position where your husband moves out and doesn't tell you if he is coming back, but if you are, consider how long you will wait for him. One year? Two? Five? Ten? Twenty? Remember, you can't see other men during this time, because you are married. Nor can you take money from him, because your bank accounts are separate. But now he is out there, running up debts that you are legally responsible for, because you are married. He can do whatever he wants, and you get to live by yourself, on whatever you can earn, and you sometimes get these bills in the mail for things you didn't buy.

No, I don't exactly abandon the people I commit to just because they hit some bumps on the road. But when a person wants to leave, I won't stand in their way.