chips and underwear's type

[Skepsis]

I still haven't totally ruled out SEI as a possibility for myself. I think LII/EII is most likely but I have had my share of issues with strong Te people. I resent being told to do things a better or more efficient way. The way I'm currently doing it is comfortable for me and it works. I care about efficiency to some extent but I far prefer a more leisurely approach.

I think it could make sense for you. I think an SEI with good logic abilities and a higher education could see themselves as LII. LIIs are quick to point how these SEIs are not LIIs. Same with EII. Si subtype would have strong emotions that they don't display often, kind of like an EII. It's just that the ethics of SEI is more flexible. So, I could see SEI-Si identifying with LII and EII. I have often felt like an outsider trying to get into both the LII and EII club, among a few others. They'll take my money, but still won't give me a bracelet, lol.

It's not that you are or aren't LII. That isn't for me to decide. It's that I could see where you're coming from.

[The Exception]

I think it could make sense for you. I think an SEI with good logic abilities and a higher education could see themselves as LII. LIIs are quick to point how these SEIs are not LIIs. Same with EII. Si subtype would have strong emotions that they don't display often, kind of like an EII. It's just that the ethics of SEI is more flexible. So, I could see SEI-Si identifying with LII and EII. I have often felt like an outsider trying to get into both the LII and EII club, among a few others. They'll take my money, but still won't give me a bracelet, lol.

It's not that you are or aren't LII. That isn't for me to decide. It's that I could see where you're coming from.

I just feel like I'm not as 'hardcore' logical as the LIIs are. Other LIIs poorly tolerate errors in someone's reasoning, are quick to point out any logical fallacy and for the most part I don't really care. I love learning, I love it when things make logical sense. I love the process of just thinking and putting things in logical categories. Yet I'm not overly categorical because I know very well that not everything can neatly fit although I would prefer it too. I would prefer things be logically consistent but sometimes it's not always possible and anyone can make some logical error. We don't need it shoved down our throats everytime we're wrong about something.

Sometimes what some of the LIIs write is hard to comprehend and digest. It would be better with more specific examples. The thinking is so obvious to them that they don't stop to think that it might not be at all obvious to someone else. But to be fair, I've been guilty of that too. Moreso in the past. I resent it when people say "it's obvious." It's an insult of someone's intelligence. What's obvious to you is not necessary obvious to someone else even if you think it should be. We all come in with different strengths as well as different life experience. In particular, those with strong Ti subtypes I tend to have more issue with.

I also see to be more ethically oriented than most LIIs I've observed. Feelings in general seem more important to me. I sometimes find myself standing up for what I think is ethically correct. If I witness someone making a remark towards someone that's rather harsh and hurtful, it's difficult for me to remain silent about it. I feel like I must do something to stop the 'perpetrator.' It's like I feel that person's feelings if they were my own. I know it would hurt me if things like that were said to me so I assume the same for the other person. But that person isn't always hurt or offended even if I feel s/he should be. I guess sometimes I need to have a thicker skin.

Yet, I still feel like I resonate alot with the LII descriptions overall and I'm not quite ready to change over my sig quite yet. Well I'm probably Harmonizing subtype so that might have to do with the above somewhat. People getting along and being comfortable sense of well being is more important than being logically correct all the time. Or maybe I am mistyped. If I'm SEI, I'm probably Si subtype and Harmonizing too.

[Skepsis]

I just feel like I'm not as 'hardcore' logical as the LIIs are. Other LIIs poorly tolerate errors in someone's reasoning, are quick to point out any logical fallacy and for the most part I don't really care. I love learning, I love it when things make logical sense. I love the process of just thinking and putting things in logical categories. Yet I'm not overly categorical because I know very well that not everything can neatly fit although I would prefer it too. I would prefer things be logically consistent but sometimes it's not always possible and anyone can make some logical error. We don't need it shoved down our throats everytime we're wrong about something.

Sometimes what some of the LIIs write is hard to comprehend and digest. It would be better with more specific examples. The thinking is so obvious to them that they don't stop to think that it might not be at all obvious to someone else. But to be fair, I've been guilty of that too. Moreso in the past. I resent it when people say "it's obvious." It's an insult of someone's intelligence. What's obvious to you is not necessary obvious to someone else even if you think it should be. We all come in with different strengths as well as different life experience. In particular, those with strong Ti subtypes I tend to have more issue with.

I also see to be more ethically oriented than most LIIs I've observed. Feelings in general seem more important to me. I sometimes find myself standing up for what I think is ethically correct. If I witness someone making a remark towards someone that's rather harsh and hurtful, it's difficult for me to remain silent about it. I feel like I must do something to stop the 'perpetrator.' It's like I feel that person's feelings if they were my own. I know it would hurt me if things like that were said to me so I assume the same for the other person. But that person isn't always hurt or offended even if I feel s/he should be. I guess sometimes I need to have a thicker skin.

Yet, I still feel like I resonate alot with the LII descriptions overall and I'm not quite ready to change over my sig quite yet. Well I'm probably Harmonizing subtype so that might have to do with the above somewhat. People getting along and being comfortable sense of well being is more important than being logically correct all the time. Or maybe I am mistyped. If I'm SEI, I'm probably Si subtype and Harmonizing too.

Yup, prob. just harmonizing LII-Ne. I think the focus on logical correctness is more of an online phenomenon, where many just want to conform to the stereotype because if you aren't as stereotypical as possible people will doubt your type and call you an F of some sort. They are just puffing their brain out. I bet many are much more accommodating in real life. Of course, the other stereotype is to say the fuck with any and all stereotypes and act how ever you feel, which is more courageous.

[The Exception]

Yup, prob. just harmonizing LII-Ne. I think the focus on logical correctness is more of an online phenomenon, where many just want to conform to the stereotype because if you aren't as stereotypical as possible people will doubt your type and call you an F of some sort. They are just puffing their brain out. I bet many are much more accommodating in real life. Of course, the other stereotype is to say the fuck with any and all stereotypes and act how ever you feel, which is more courageous.

Here’s something that has been on my mind lately. When someone posts something I find rude or harsh, I feel offended by it and I feel like I have to call out that person on it, to tell them it’s rude or inconsiderate. This has happened several times on online forums when someone says something that kind of pisses me off, that I think is a hurtful comment. Furthermore, I get bothered when it seems like no one is taking my side on it. When no one comes to say I’ve raised a good point or ‘likes’ the post I made. Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree. Also, when the person who makes the comment doesn’t even apologize. At least say, ‘yeah, you’re right. I went a little too far in that comment. I’ll try to be more careful next time.’ Usually it's things like 'your type descriptions are terrible' or 'how can you be so ignorant to not know your type after studying the system for 2 years?"

It’s true I’m hypersensitive to criticism and harsh comments, even if they’re not directed at me personally, I can feel them as if they were. I imagine how I’d feel if the comment was directed at me. Most people probably aren’t as sensitive themselves so as a result maybe they don’t see things as being offensive where I would see it as such? Anyway, this is the one thing I hate the most about myself, that I would change in a heartbeat if I could. To be thicker skinned. To let criticisms and slights just roll right off my shoulder. To not care so much what other people think? I mean what practical benefits do I get from being the way I am? I suppose it makes me a kinder and more considerate person, but that benefits other people. It’s not benefitting myself. It’s not making me a happier person.

So based on this, can I still even be an LII? Because this sounds rather un-LII-like. Most LIIs I know, do not get worked up over such comments like these. Most LIIs are less emotional and thicker-skinned. Most LIIs don’t seem to care enough about ethics to get involved in debating about such things. This sounds more ethical. Whether it’s more Fi or Fe, I’m not sure. I think it could be both. Fi if it’s emphasizing the ethics and morals more. Fe if it’s more about mood and atmosphere. I am considering both EII and SEI as possibilities. I think the former is more likely because I do think I have strong Ne and weaker Si but I’m open to SEI or any other type.

[glam]

Here’s something that has been on my mind lately. When someone posts something I find rude or harsh, I feel offended by it and I feel like I have to call out that person on it, to tell them it’s rude or inconsiderate. This has happened several times on online forums when someone says something that kind of pisses me off, that I think is a hurtful comment. Furthermore, I get bothered when it seems like no one is taking my side on it. When no one comes to say I’ve raised a good point or ‘likes’ the post I made. Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree. Also, when the person who makes the comment doesn’t even apologize. At least say, ‘yeah, you’re right. I went a little too far in that comment. I’ll try to be more careful next time.’ Usually it's things like 'your type descriptions are terrible' or 'how can you be so ignorant to not know your type after studying the system for 2 years?"

It’s true I’m hypersensitive to criticism and harsh comments, even if they’re not directed at me personally, I can feel them as if they were. I imagine how I’d feel if the comment was directed at me. Most people probably aren’t as sensitive themselves so as a result maybe they don’t see things as being offensive where I would see it as such? Anyway, this is the one thing I hate the most about myself, that I would change in a heartbeat if I could. To be thicker skinned. To let criticisms and slights just roll right off my shoulder. To not care so much what other people think? I mean what practical benefits do I get from being the way I am? I suppose it makes me a kinder and more considerate person, but that benefits other people. It’s not benefitting myself. It’s not making me a happier person.

So based on this, can I still even be an LII? Because this sounds rather un-LII-like. Most LIIs I know, do not get worked up over such comments like these. Most LIIs are less emotional and thicker-skinned. Most LIIs don’t seem to care enough about ethics to get involved in debating about such things. This sounds more ethical. Whether it’s more Fi or Fe, I’m not sure. I think it could be both. Fi if it’s emphasizing the ethics and morals more. Fe if it’s more about mood and atmosphere. I am considering both EII and SEI as possibilities. I think the former is more likely because I do think I have strong Ne and weaker Si but I’m open to SEI or any other type.

chips, this really does sound EII to me, and not LII. i think i've mentioned thinking EII for you in the past too. i've had a hard time seeing you as LII, because i never see hard Ti analysis in your posts. your communication and verbalization is usually more Fi-oriented, you seem confident in making Fi evaluations and acting upon them (as you describe in the 1st paragraph in the quoted post), and you always talk about "relating" or "not relating" to things. also, i see you often asking for feedback, seeming unsure about your ideas and conclusions (weak Te). i think LIIs tend to be much more sure on their opinions about such things - they don't need anyone to "confirm" their ideas (not that they won't talk about them with others). and you're right that LIIs don't typically display the kind of sensitivity you mention. there's a reason why IxTx communication style is called "Cold-blooded"

it also sounds like you'd be an Oldham Sensitive type, which i would guess tends to correlate more to the Sincere (IxFx) communication style.

[Myst]

chips, this really does sound EII to me, and not LII. i think i've mentioned thinking EII for you in the past too. i've had a hard time seeing you as LII, because i never see hard Ti analysis in your posts. your communication and verbalization is usually more Fi-oriented, you seem confident in making Fi evaluations and acting upon them (as you describe in the 1st paragraph in the quoted post), and you always talk about "relating" or "not relating" to things. also, i see you often asking for feedback, seeming unsure about your ideas and conclusions (weak Te). i think LIIs tend to be much more sure on their opinions about such things - they don't need anyone to "confirm" their ideas (not that they won't talk about them with others). and you're right that LIIs don't typically display the kind of sensitivity you mention. there's a reason why IxTx communication style is called "Cold-blooded"

it also sounds like you'd be an Oldham Sensitive type, which i would guess tends to correlate more to the Sincere (IxFx) communication style.

She says: "Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree"

How is that confidence in Fi as in lead Fi types?... Nope.

i know that they're lookalike types, but an LII having a pronounced Fi role doesn't really explain what i see as defining behavior and functional strengths for chips. i see her consistently using Fi-related semantics in her communication, and by her own description in this post, she is comfortable making Fi judgments and acting on them. explaining away this Fi focus doesn't somehow make her LII. and i think her sense of humor is very Ne (which makes sense given that Ne is her Creative function and likely her subtype).

Again, try not to confuse Fi role with Fi base. I noticed people do make that mistake sometimes. I've seen her make judgments out of Ti however, instead of Fi.

[ashlesha]

She says: "Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree"

How is that confidence in Fi as in lead Fi types?... Nope.

this is exactly what i sometimes think and verbalize when it comes to socionics since there aren't any reliable "facts" to fall back on. i could very easily see it as a lack of confidence in Ti.

[spritelite]

Here’s something that has been on my mind lately. When someone posts something I find rude or harsh, I feel offended by it and I feel like I have to call out that person on it, to tell them it’s rude or inconsiderate. This has happened several times on online forums when someone says something that kind of pisses me off, that I think is a hurtful comment. Furthermore, I get bothered when it seems like no one is taking my side on it. When no one comes to say I’ve raised a good point or ‘likes’ the post I made. Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree. Also, when the person who makes the comment doesn’t even apologize. At least say, ‘yeah, you’re right. I went a little too far in that comment. I’ll try to be more careful next time.’ Usually it's things like 'your type descriptions are terrible' or 'how can you be so ignorant to not know your type after studying the system for 2 years?"

It’s true I’m hypersensitive to criticism and harsh comments, even if they’re not directed at me personally, I can feel them as if they were. I imagine how I’d feel if the comment was directed at me. Most people probably aren’t as sensitive themselves so as a result maybe they don’t see things as being offensive where I would see it as such? Anyway, this is the one thing I hate the most about myself, that I would change in a heartbeat if I could. To be thicker skinned. To let criticisms and slights just roll right off my shoulder. To not care so much what other people think? I mean what practical benefits do I get from being the way I am? I suppose it makes me a kinder and more considerate person, but that benefits other people. It’s not benefitting myself. It’s not making me a happier person.

So based on this, can I still even be an LII? Because this sounds rather un-LII-like. Most LIIs I know, do not get worked up over such comments like these. Most LIIs are less emotional and thicker-skinned. Most LIIs don’t seem to care enough about ethics to get involved in debating about such things. This sounds more ethical. Whether it’s more Fi or Fe, I’m not sure. I think it could be both. Fi if it’s emphasizing the ethics and morals more. Fe if it’s more about mood and atmosphere. I am considering both EII and SEI as possibilities. I think the former is more likely because I do think I have strong Ne and weaker Si but I’m open to SEI or any other type.

I agree with you on the bad manners. Some people do not realise, others do not care about it. Typically there is some Se posturing involved with these types of comments and behaviours you observe, more so done by the Se seeking types rather than those with the Se in their ego, but if it occurs in the Si types, it usually for different reasons.

I still think you can be LII and not appreciate it, based on this reasoning, but I will make a point of reading your posts when I come across them in threads, and see what I think about your type.

[Myst]

Here’s something that has been on my mind lately. When someone posts something I find rude or harsh, I feel offended by it and I feel like I have to call out that person on it, to tell them it’s rude or inconsiderate. This has happened several times on online forums when someone says something that kind of pisses me off, that I think is a hurtful comment. Furthermore, I get bothered when it seems like no one is taking my side on it. When no one comes to say I’ve raised a good point or ‘likes’ the post I made. Then I wonder if it’s even valid to be thinking such a thing when no one seems to agree. Also, when the person who makes the comment doesn’t even apologize. At least say, ‘yeah, you’re right. I went a little too far in that comment. I’ll try to be more careful next time.’ Usually it's things like 'your type descriptions are terrible' or 'how can you be so ignorant to not know your type after studying the system for 2 years?"

It’s true I’m hypersensitive to criticism and harsh comments, even if they’re not directed at me personally, I can feel them as if they were. I imagine how I’d feel if the comment was directed at me. Most people probably aren’t as sensitive themselves so as a result maybe they don’t see things as being offensive where I would see it as such? Anyway, this is the one thing I hate the most about myself, that I would change in a heartbeat if I could. To be thicker skinned. To let criticisms and slights just roll right off my shoulder. To not care so much what other people think? I mean what practical benefits do I get from being the way I am? I suppose it makes me a kinder and more considerate person, but that benefits other people. It’s not benefitting myself. It’s not making me a happier person.

So based on this, can I still even be an LII? Because this sounds rather un-LII-like. Most LIIs I know, do not get worked up over such comments like these. Most LIIs are less emotional and thicker-skinned. Most LIIs don’t seem to care enough about ethics to get involved in debating about such things. This sounds more ethical. Whether it’s more Fi or Fe, I’m not sure. I think it could be both. Fi if it’s emphasizing the ethics and morals more. Fe if it’s more about mood and atmosphere. I am considering both EII and SEI as possibilities. I think the former is more likely because I do think I have strong Ne and weaker Si but I’m open to SEI or any other type.

I know an LII-Ne who does this. Really conflict avoidant LII, that one. Really strong in Ne too. Ti is still the leading function tho' because he takes it seriously.

Also you are identifying with enneagram 5... it makes LII much more likely than SEI or EII.

[glam]

Yup, prob. just harmonizing LII-Ne. I think the focus on logical correctness is more of an online phenomenon, where many just want to conform to the stereotype because if you aren't as stereotypical as possible people will doubt your type and call you an F of some sort. They are just puffing their brain out. I bet many are much more accommodating in real life. Of course, the other stereotype is to say the fuck with any and all stereotypes and act how ever you feel, which is more courageous.

where did this come from? nobody said that chips should act differently from herself. if someone thinks that chips could be an Ethical type, it doesn't necessarily mean they "want her to conform to the stereotype" are "puffing their brain out" lol. i wonder why you are being so presumptuous about how other people think about typing? :/

if anything i'm often hesitant to "question" people's self-typings, because i know a lot of people on this forum are dealing with non-socionic psychological issues often related to a crisis of identity, and that's a sensitive matter. i only did it here because chips herself said she's reconsidering her type atm.

[Skepsis]

where did this come from? nobody said that chips should act differently from herself. if someone thinks that chips could be an Ethical type, it doesn't necessarily mean they "want her to conform to the stereotype" are "puffing their brain out" lol. i wonder why you are being so presumptuous about how other people think about typing? :/

if anything i'm often hesitant to "question" people's self-typings, because i know a lot of people on this forum are dealing with non-socionic psychological issues often related to a crisis of identity, and that's a sensitive matter. i only did it here because chips herself said she's reconsidering her type atm.

I don't mean to be presumptuous. What I was referring to was not related to chip directly or anyone trying to type her. It was observing that many logical types tend to overdo their logic online. I know many LIIs in person and none talk and behave in person as online; the ones I know are way more fun and easy going and accommodating, irl. Not like an ethical type, but still more than they present online. Online there is a lot of effort into proving your type and this often occurs by people behaving in stereotypical ways. This is easily observed on NT forums. When you do not behave as such you are rejected as NT. It is a social phenomenon. Any talk of ethical concerns, if not done right, will make you suspect. If they really are an ethical type, then so be it. I'm only saying that it is entirely in the realm of possibility that an NT can express ethical sentiments and still be an NT. That's all. It's in the theory.

I thought "brain puffing out" was funny

[Myst]

@Myst i think it's easy to slap the "Alpha" label on her brand of humor due to stereotypes, but i don't think it's always that simple - i've seen Deltas whose humor isn't that different. and again, the fact she said Beta is the quadra she relates to the least seems significant.

These are far from definitive points for typing. The humour thing and the quadra thing as well. What I said about how chips displays low confidence in his ethical judgments seems far more relevant, you didn't comment on that.

however if you think she could be Fi role like yourself, then i won't dismiss that.

She is different from me due to the Se PoLR, but yes, Fi role makes sense still.

I think you (@chips and underwear) perhaps associate your skills and your mindset as being highly "logical", and the correct way of being, even when it comes to dealing with personal judgements (perhaps especially because you consider all or most evaluations you make as reasonable, qualitative approximations based on well-considered thought processes: you will typically know exactly what your view is on a position, or why you think a certain way, or at least you are able to say that you cannot make a definitive judgment on the matter...and expressing exactly why!: not all individuals are able to readily do this), and so readily identify with

Yes, Ti is an external IE, more explicit than Fi, able to express the why's. This is where I see Ti in chips.

You in comparison to her sound more vague, less clear, less explicit, less consistent in expressing your thoughts overall. You are somehow rambling, the impression of which I never get from her.

Note this is my Ti ego POV You may not sound vague to some other people. But I find it relevant for typing her.

speaking from my own experience, I could not readily comprehend , seeing it as a poor imitation of I also saw myself as being far more "rational" than the vast majority of people (which I probably am).

is just as much about a focus on an internalised systematic, evaluative thought process as .

Why don't you define Fi a bit more clearly than this. From the viewpoint of you as EII. It may help chips.

I don't mean to be presumptuous. What I was referring to was not related to chip directly or anyone trying to type her. It was observing that many logical types tend to overdo their logic online.

I do that too but not because I want to appear X type, I do it because it's easy for me to entirely forget about the human element of interactions when the person is not there IRL showing their non verbal expressions.

Also, I do it outside typology too, I did it before discovering socionics, so most certainly not because of wanting to be whatever type.

I though "brain puffing out" was funny

I actually laughed at it a bit

[Socionics Is A Cult]

Yes, Ti is an external IE, more explicit than Fi, able to express the why's. This is where I see Ti in chips.

You in comparison to her sound more vague, less clear, less explicit, less consistent in expressing your thoughts overall. You are somehow rambling, the impression of which I never get from her.

Note this is my Ti ego POV You may not sound vague to some other people. But I find it relevant for typing her.




Why don't you define Fi a bit more clearly than this. From the viewpoint of you as EII. It may help chips.

I suppose for me (when combined with ), is somewhat impressionistic: it manages to capture the whole without being too rigid. But I don't see why this would apply any less to a LII than an EII. So I think the distinction must be more down to areas of competence, as usually associated with type stereotypes. But as I say, not especially useful as a distinction if you consider yourself competent across the board.

It is possible (although I am not sure) that many of my decisions are based more on gut impressions and then are justified more on an ad-hoc basis. I think this may be more in instances where more than one option seems approximately acceptable. In those cases again, I still generally have my reasons for making one decision over another: it is often vital to me e.g. in cases where I must re-evaluate for whatever reason. But again, I don't see this as necessarily alien to a LII.

[glam]

These are far from definitive points for typing. The humour thing and the quadra thing as well.

i disagree, i think those things can be important indicators. curious, why did you point out the supposed "Alphaness" of her humor if you didn't find it relevant?

What I said about how chips displays low confidence in his ethical judgments seems far more relevant, you didn't comment on that.

ah yea, i meant to respond. i've been thinking more about it and i'm not sure if it's socionics related or not - it could be related to her high sensitivity, which has been noted. also we may have interpreted her comment differently, i didn't see that comment as "displaying low confidence" in her judgments, rather, i saw it indicative of some kind of anxiety about what other people think of her (being sensitive). her judgments themselves seem rather confident. but perhaps chips could clarify, idk.


ETA: i forgot to mention that from my POV, the person chips reminds me most of on this forum is Subteigh, an EII who previously self-typed LII. (this is just IMO, not reflective of anyone else's opinion)

[glam]

I don't mean to be presumptuous. What I was referring to was not related to chip directly or anyone trying to type her. It was observing that many logical types tend to overdo their logic online. I know many LIIs in person and none talk and behave in person as online; the ones I know are way more fun and easy going and accommodating, irl. Not like an ethical type, but still more than they present online. Online there is a lot of effort into proving your type and this often occurs by people behaving in stereotypical ways. This is easily observed on NT forums. When you do not behave as such you are rejected as NT. It is a social phenomenon. Any talk of ethical concerns, if not done right, will make you suspect. If they really are an ethical type, then so be it. I'm only saying that it is entirely in the realm of possibility that an NT can express ethical sentiments and still be an NT. That's all. It's in the theory.

I thought "brain puffing out" was funny

yea i agree some people are like the bolded, but not all. some people don't attach much to their self-typings, others very much do. i don't necessarily assume that people are "trying" to act like their type (though sometimes it's obviously the case). i know very well that NTs can express "ethical sentiments" and still be NT - and yes, i've thought about that when thinking about chips' type, and i still lean EII because of various factors. i'm sorry if my post came across as harsh.