Gamma Duality

[FDG]

LIEs can be both pushy and uncertain of themselves, requiring soft but assured guidance or at least clear reciprocity.

I've found that Victim men tend to suffer a great deal from women giving too many mixed signals, the worse so if they are Ni subtype.

Pushy in everyday life I meant

[Adam Strange]

LIEs can be both pushy and uncertain of themselves, requiring soft but assured guidance or at least clear reciprocity.

I've found that Victim men tend to suffer a great deal from women giving too many mixed signals, the worse so if they are Ni subtype.

Yes, I like a woman to be pushy in the sense that she lets me know she's interested in spending time with me, but not one that is too pushy.

I was dating one woman and she came over to the house, looked around, and looked like she was considering moving in. At which point red flags and alarms went off in my head. (This was kind of early, at the fourth date or so.) To my way of thinking, the house should not be important at all, but the guy should be strongly vetted.

(Hmmm. Maybe this belongs in an sp-last thread. Or maybe I just wasn't that into her, because I can think of a couple women with whom I'd be pleased if they did that. We'd have to get a new place, though. One that we both would choose, not just me. The SLI ex hated the house I had when we got married, and rightfully so. It has a terrible layout. But I was too stupid and obstinant to move to a place which she liked. Big mistake.)

[hatesyardwork]

It seems like you know exactly what you want and exactly whether or not you're interested in others. You don't seem to forgive others for being slow moving in romance endeavors.

In gamma it's the se types that assume that you should know whether or not you want to sleep with someone, it's the nt's who need time to consider if someone is an interest. The se types are the ones that initiate the initial romantic vibes. NTs do not given up on their interests simply because they don't want to immediately bump uglies, as they are more likely to run for the hills when someone comes on too strong too soon.

I acknowledge that you're saying that you aren't a stalker but you are saying that you require sexual reciprocity to engage in a relationship.

I guess another disclaimer here, gulenkos love styles get all screwed up in ppl who are afraid to be themselves, but I don't think that's the case here.

I am only speaking for myself and not claiming providence for Gamma NT's. I only approach women who have given me approach signals and I try to feel them out (vibe, self esteem, sincerity, intelligence etc) and just try to "push" things along with being overt........eye contact or ask them out outright. I have suffered a lot of failure with not expressing clear interest to a women, they never think I am into them unless I show them directly. It doesn't work on all girls though, I just don't like 18 months of ambiguous flirting, I have stated earlier I wasted years waiting for women to initiate, they don't with me, it's all subtle, so I decided to stop being subtle. Women are very coy with me, most won't make eye contact.

[hatesyardwork]

It seems like you know exactly what you want and exactly whether or not you're interested in others. You don't seem to forgive others for being slow moving in romance endeavors.

I am attracted to very few girls, it's way more than looks to me, but when I know I know. I don't think I am unforgiving as I am disappointed, because if she doesn't reciprocate I am devastated because I read her wrong or she is becoming more coy and playing more hard to get which totally turns me off. So mad at myself and further coyness annoys me beyond belief, I am not going to chase you, fuck that. I try to be bold, but I do it "gingerly" if that makes sense, I have to force myself to do it after much reflection related mostly to my own doubt and understanding that I have to initiate and get the ball rolling.

[hatesyardwork]

Are you sure you are a Victim type?
All of that sounds rather Aggressor-like.

Sure, Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressors", but I have never seen or heard of a Gamma NT acting like that before.

P.S: That behaviour reminds me of Beta STs in particular.

I read your Prey/Predator (liked it very much) post and doesn't my behavior which you attribute to LSI actually fall within the narrative you described for "Hard Prey" types?

Perhaps you could explain to me the reasons you think a Prey vs a Predator type would begin to lose interest in someone, and stop chasing because the two styles seem to blur and I am trying to clarify it in mind. Thanks

Example........Seems that a Beta ST likes people who play hard to get, while a Gamma NT would hate it. Is that right?

[Olimpia]

I read your Prey/Predator (liked it very much) post and doesn't my behavior which you attribute to LSI actually fall within the narrative you described for "Hard Prey" types?

Perhaps you could explain to me the reasons you think a Prey vs a Predator type would begin to lose interest in someone, and stop chasing because the two styles seem to blur and I am trying to clarify it in mind. Thanks

Example........Seems that a Beta ST likes people who play hard to get, while a Gamma NT would hate it. Is that right?

It's true that on the surface, the Hard Prey can seem like a Predator, I did mention that. However, someone who can see through the act will see quickly that it is just that – an act. In your earlier comments, I personally got the impression that you didn't put up the Aggressor/Predator act, but that you were actually being a Predator. For instance, how you employ the intense eye contact tactic is something I've only heard Aggressors do. Even the LIEs wouldn't dare to do that, nor feel comfortable doing it, on average. Also, with the Hard Prey, their periodic Predator-phases will be alternated by Victim-ish behaviour, like suddenly being unclear whether they actually like the person, or pulling back and waiting for the other person to step in and clarify the nature of the relation. You don't seem to be like that, you are more simple and straight-forward in your approach (which is more characteristic of Beta ST). Having said that, I've heard of some PUA LSI guys faking the Hard Prey behaviour of pulling back, actually. I think they have noticed that this works great with Aggressor chicks, so that is why they do it. Based on what I've seen, it seems like most women they pick up are Gamma SF. I want to stress here that those PUA LSIs do the "pull back" consciously and deliberately. The Hard Prey, on the other hand, feels compelled to "pull back", it is mostly an unconscious instinctive mechanism.

To answer your second question... An LIE might like it when someone isn't too easy to get, at first. (As I said in the blog entry, their Dual the ESI usually comes across as a Victim at first.) But beyond a certain point, they'll feel like giving up or start becoming a bit insecure and unsure – this is when the other person has to step in and be like "Hey, I like you, let's do this". This doesn't really happen with Beta ST guys, who'll keep going unless they get no response at all or a hard "no" from the person they are pursuing.

[FDG]

To answer your question... An LIE might like it when someone isn't too easy to get, at first. (As I said in the blog entry, their Dual the ESI usually comes across as a Victim at first.) .

I think most NT types are a bit "out" of most romantic games about being easy or hard to get, it's kind not their domain being a type with all 1-D S and F functions.

[hatesyardwork]

I think most NT types are a bit "out" of most romantic games about being easy or hard to get, it's kind not their domain being a type with all 1-D S and F functions.

Yes

Coyness, ambiguity or zero reciprocation drives me crazy. I don't press the issue, I back off or walk.

[Olimpia]

Yes

Coyness, ambiguity or zero reciprocation drives me crazy. I don't press the issue, I back off or walk.

What exactly annoys you about it?

[hatesyardwork]

But beyond a certain point, they'll feel like giving up or start becoming a bit insecure and unsure – this is when the other person has to step in and be like "Hey, I like you, let's do this".

Exactly the point at which I give the eye contact, the other person either steps up or moves backward. Letting her know I like her so she can decide to "let's do this" if she is unsure about my interest in her.

'Hey I like you and I am thinking you like me.........you in?" I get my answer right away. I move forward or back off depending, all in or all out, I am not chasing beyond this point. Often the girls dig in thinking that playing hard to get is working on me ( I can see they liked me chasing and get mad at me when I stop chasing) , but I am DONE. Ball is in her court at that time, I am done playing. Digging in is the worst she could do, I'm a victim after all, I want to be desired and coy is the inverse. It's kind of "test" I give in the same way women "test" me. If she fails it I lose attraction, it is just the tip of the iceberg, and I am not interested in her anymore.

[hatesyardwork]

What exactly annoys you about it?

To quote @Cassandra.........."An LIE might like it when someone isn't too easy to get at first"


Shy, modest and reserved are alluring at first (this is very attractive to me) , but become boring over time if I am doing all the lifting.

[Resonare]

I think the thread has become a bit tainted and the romantic styles have become too blurred.

ESI Male - LIE Female

090601_student_teacher_sex.jpg

couples-bdsm-coaching-bright-1024x512.jpg (Can see this as EIE-LSI as well)

 

tumblr_ngl7lq0A9J1u1uvsto1_500.gif

ESI Female - LIE Male

BDSM-Couple-Fine-Art-of-Bondage-8042.jpg

pratiche-bdsm-786961.png

ILI Male - SEE Female

NerdGetsGirl-740x500.jpg

sin-city-gail-and-dwight-via-jestersreviews.jpg

[Adam Strange]

Maybe I'm missing some essential part of LIE. I've never wanted to be tied up.

[Rhaegar]

Duals in conversation:

Joe Rogan: See-Fi & Phillip DeFranco: ILI-Te

[Resonare]

Maybe I'm missing some essential part of LIE. I've never wanted to be tied up.

That can be down to type 8 influence. Besides, romantic styles are hardly essential, it's just that the posts here about it have gotten vague to the point where people can hardly tell which type is which.

[Adam Strange]

Maybe I'm missing some essential part of LIE. I've never wanted to be tied up.

That can be down to type 8 influence. Besides, romantic styles are hardly essential, it's just that the posts here about it have gotten vague to the point where people can hardly tell which type is which.

Well, I agree that there are incorrect assumptions about types, and that my complete disinterest in being tied up or in BDSM might be due to being e8 (Not wanting to be controlled), but I also think that LIE's are in the Gamma Quadra, the Complex of Tied Hands, and in that sense we fear being restricted in any way.

I once had a GF who said she wanted to tie me up and have sex. (She saw me as being similar in some ways to her father, whom she considered (!) to be a monster, and might have felt safer that way, or might have wanted to resolve some power and control issues - IDK) But alarm bells started going off in my head, and we didn't last much longer after that as a couple (but not because of that).

I do think this idea that LIE's are into BDSM is a misconception, possibly resulting from LIE's being Victims (in the Erotic Attitudes sense). But I believe LIE's are "Victims" only in a very particular sense.
For example, here is my Sexual Styles chart:

Adam's Sexual Style_v02.jpg

Note that I'm mostly Vanilla and Voyeur (I'm visually oriented - beauty and physique are important to me), then Switch, then Hunter and Prey are about equal, as are Dominant and Submissive. The Bondage stuff gets a zero.

This translates to the fact that I like a woman who is assertive and is comfortable with her sexuality and is OK with going for what she wants. I want her to be an equal partner in the fun, not someone who needs to tie me up (what? So I don't run away? Or don't cut out her liver?) or who needs to be tied up (so she can take no responsibility for her pleasure?). I want her to be there because she wants to be there, just as I am.

This attitude might be why the submissive/dominant roles turned out to be fairly equal in my Sexual Styles test, and why many people, upon seeing that LIE's like to both chase and be chased, assume further that they also like to be tied down and beaten with a stick. Bad assumption.

[Rebelondeck]

I look upon Ej-Ij dual relationships as Janus-like (the Roman god). Barring libido affects, j-types seem to think that they can survive on their own quite well, and most can; but they tend to be rather one-directional, which they rarely acknowledge. What j-types seem to need most of all from duality is someone watching their back.

a.k.a. I/O

[Olimpia]

Most people are not into BDSM, including most LIEs.

From those people who are into BDSM, most of them seem to be Fi ego.

The stereotype of LIEs being into BDSM stems largely from the fantasies of Fi ego women, I'd say.
Christian Grey is LIE-Te and Anastasia is EII-Fi...
He is the Dominant and likes to do the tying up, but he's still being a Victim (Pseudo-Aggressor) in certain ways.

[Rebelondeck]

I think that sexual deviations from norms stem more from self-images due to learned and or psychological conditions, and shouldn't be linked to type. Deviancy becomes entrenched in automatic response and is not cognitive behaviour, although how to quench the urge is cognitive. The rationalizations of why individuals deviate will certainly vary among types.

a.k.a. I/O

[Aylen]

I think that sexual deviations from norms stem more from self-images due to learned and or psychological conditions, and shouldn't be linked to type. Deviancy becomes entrenched in automatic response and is not cognitive behaviour, although how to quench the urge is cognitive. The rationalizations of why individuals deviate will certainly vary among types.
a.k.a. I/O

I read an article not long ago about sexual imprinting after someone mentioned it here. I have talked to people with sexual deviations and the most common element is that it was linked to an event in childhood that was spontaneous and surprising for them. The conversations were more in depth than I would get into here but this is an excerpt from the article. The deviations occurred in various types and I agree the quenching of the urge could be cognitive depending on the type of imprinting.

The reverse is true of imprinting: Imprinting is sudden and permanent.
It seems that we can receive sexual imprinting from a single event.
And even if we might later wish to ‘lose’ that piece of imprinting,
we find that it remains a part of our sexual responses thru-out our lives.

Let’s review the forms of biological imprinting discussed earlier:
Because of the way our brains develop,
we become right-handed or left-handed from a very early age.
This handedness probably arises
because one of our brain’s hemispheres becomes dominant.
And for most of us, being right-handed or left-handed is permanent.

Visual imprinting also occurs shortly after birth:
If the baby’s eyes operate properly,
its brain will quickly acquire the ability to process visual input.
This imprinted visual capacity becomes a permanent part of its brain.

Native language is also imprinted in the first few months.
Our ‘language-file’ is extremely receptive up to two years of age.
Never again will we acquire verbal input as quickly and permanently.

Probably as a part of being imprinted with our native language,
we are imprinted with the belief that we are either girls or boys.
Later we learn the facts and implications of being one sex or the other.
But these elaborations of sexual identity stand on the unshakable conviction,
imprinted during the first 18 months, that I am either a she or a he.

A fifth kind of imprinting is the subject of this book:
the imprinting of our sex-scripts during our first few years of life.
This kind of imprinting is more controversial than the other four,
since there is no definite period during which it must take place.
Sexual imprinting seems to take place later in personal development
than handedness, vision, language, & male/female self-designation.
However, there are indications that some sexual imprinting can occur
even before verbal ability has developed very far.
Much more research will be needed on pre-verbal sexual imprinting.

Learning is the main alternative to the hypothesis of imprinting.
Learned responses and behaviors can be unlearned.
For instance, people who have learned to drive on the right side of the road
can learn to drive on the left in countries where that is the law.
And children who have learned to suck their thumbs or bite their nails
can unlearn these habits, perhaps with a little help from others.

28 IMPRINTED SEXUAL FANTASIES: A NEW KEY FOR SEXOLOGY by JAMES PARK

But imprinted feelings, responses, & fantasies cannot be unlearned.
We can control the behavior that emerges in response to our imprinting,
but as far as we know, there is no way to erase imprinting.
Learned behaviors can be superimposed over imprinted responses.
For instance, we can learn to use either hand with great skill.
But it will be more difficult for the less dominant side to learn.

If sexual responses were learned (rather than imprinted),
then we would naturally assume that they could be unlearned.
But if our sexual fantasies and responses are built into us
at a deeper level—imprinted in our sex-files—
then our attempts to change these imprinted responses
will not work as easily as efforts to change simple learned behavior.

It is a very complex subject and, in some cases, disturbing on various levels of consciousness for those who have to deal with it. Quite a few sought out therapy and in the process understood the forces that were driving them. Some people will never want to explore the source so I can't really imagine what it is like for them other than some primitive instinct that they do not choose to address or are fine with.

I wanted to be a psychologist/psychiatrist as a child until I realized that career would suck the life right out of me.

[FDG]

I look upon Ej-Ij dual relationships as Janus-like (the Roman god). Barring libido affects, j-types seem to think that they can survive on their own quite well, and most can; but they tend to be rather one-directional, which they rarely acknowledge. What j-types seem to need most of all from duality is someone watching their back.

a.k.a. I/O

That's correct.

Basically then double penetration from behind?

[Rebelondeck]

......Basically then double penetration from behind?

I guess that depends how many bisexuals are in the relationship but in such a case, not everyone can be the others dual.

a.k.a. I/O

[Olimpia]

Looks like male LIE & female ESI.

[Olimpia]

Could also be Gamma Activity with ESI-ILI...
Female seems to be ESI, and the guy some Gamma Victim.

[carrina]

"Hurrying the sex act"... is this a Gamma thing?

This reminds me of an SEE woman who'd say she loves "quickies"...

no I wouldn't say at all that it is a gamma thing. It's a thing that LIEs are said to to in various personality descriptions. meaning, they're not taking their time to enjoy it, they just wanna bone. lol

[carrina]

Could also be Gamma Activity with ESI-ILI...
Female seems to be ESI, and the guy some Gamma Victim.

This has literally zero to do with personality types.

[carrina]

none of this shit has anything to do with personality types. they're literally not doing anything but posing for a picture wtf is wrong w ppl these days.

I think the thread has become a bit tainted and the romantic styles have become too blurred.

ESI Male - LIE Female

090601_student_teacher_sex.jpg

couples-bdsm-coaching-bright-1024x512.jpg (Can see this as EIE-LSI as well)

 

tumblr_ngl7lq0A9J1u1uvsto1_500.gif

ESI Female - LIE Male

BDSM-Couple-Fine-Art-of-Bondage-8042.jpg

pratiche-bdsm-786961.png

ILI Male - SEE Female

NerdGetsGirl-740x500.jpg

sin-city-gail-and-dwight-via-jestersreviews.jpg

[carrina]

Yes

Coyness, ambiguity or zero reciprocation drives me crazy. I don't press the issue, I back off or walk.

this isn't the same thing as what you quoted. he said: Originally Posted by FDG
I think most NT types are a bit "out" of most romantic games about being easy or hard to get, it's kind not their domain being a type with all 1-D S and F functions.

his point is that NTs don't understand these games, he didn't say that they understood the games and were too impatient to put up with them.

[FDG]

this isn't the same thing as what you quoted. he said: Originally Posted by FDG
I think most NT types are a bit "out" of most romantic games about being easy or hard to get, it's kind not their domain being a type with all 1-D S and F functions.

his point is that NTs don't understand these games, he didn't say that they understood the games and were too impatient to put up with them.

Yeah...but I think the SFs kind of like that from many points of view, it gives them some security.

[Adam Strange]

Yeah...but I think the SFs kind of like that from many points of view, it gives them some security.

Lol. Probably true.

I may not know much about romance, but I know what I like. When I was dating an LSI, I got a book on how to be more romantic, and it was like reading Martian. I thought to myself, Does this stuff work for anyone? Does this make a difference? I mean, I bought her potted orchids and stuff, but I think she appreciated the practical help I gave her around the house more. That, and taking her to places where she wouldn't otherwise go. Concerts, campgrounds, the beach, etc.

However, while we were a couple, I was 100% faithful. Not 99.999999% faithful. One hundred percent faithful. I stopped looking. And since I do want to end up with an ESI, I had to break up with her before I could even look elsewhere.

[carrina]

Yeah...but I think the SFs kind of like that from many points of view, it gives them some security.

they like what? the confused lover who has no idea what to do in relationships? there's a sense of freedom in relationships with nt's. sometimes too much tbh.

[carrina]

Lol. Probably true.

I may not know much about romance, but I know what I like. When I was dating an LSI, I got a book on how to be more romantic, and it was like reading Martian. I thought to myself, Does this stuff work for anyone? Does this make a difference? I mean, I bought her potted orchids and stuff, but I think she appreciated the practical help I gave her around the house more. That, and taking her to places where she wouldn't otherwise go. Concerts, campgrounds, the beach, etc.

However, while we were a couple, I was 100% faithful. Not 99.999999% faithful. One hundred percent faithful. I stopped looking. And since I do want to end up with an ESI, I had to break up with her before I could even look elsewhere.

seems unfaithful to leave your girl for a fantasy. that said, flowers in vases are meaningless gifts. they just die.

[Adam Strange]

seems unfaithful to leave your girl for a fantasy. that said, flowers in vases are meaningless gifts. they just die.

When you want a spray of colors, cut flowers fit the bill. But the flowers I bought for her were growing in soil.

If ESI's were fantasies, then yes, it would have been foolish to leave her in hopes of finding a fantasy.

However, ESI's are not fantasies. I've found several. What I'm working on now is finding one with a few other important characteristics. While it may be true that all cats are grey in the dark, it is also true that not all black cats are alike.

[FDG]

they like what? the confused lover who has no idea what to do in relationships? there's a sense of freedom in relationships with nt's. sometimes too much tbh.

We were not talking about "no idea what to do in relationships", that's your personal version now.

[carrina]

When you want a spray of colors, cut flowers fit the bill. But the flowers I bought for her were growing in soil.

I agree that flowers are colorful and didn't mean to shit on your idea of a good gift. Flowers are expensive though, potted flowers are cheaper. It gives her work to do but at least it won't die and she can put it in the garden later or something. I'm not going to comment further on the ESI fantasy vs real life girlfriend thing.

[Olimpia]

Male LIE - Female ESI

[flames]

SEE - ILI ?

[ashlesha]

Male LIE - Female ESI

Your pictures seem to be going with the trend of gammas being rich and business-like people with no hint of unique relational dynamics or anything and I don't see how this provides any insight about the types.

[Olimpia]

The "problem" is, that most LIE individuals become more or less affluent in their lifetime, thanks to good business logic .
And together with the ESI... they have the power couple dynamic.

I'll try to find "non rich" LIE-ESI couples...
But that's not easy.

[Singu]

Stop posting any picture of a stereotypical couple and calling it duality .