[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I've watched Deathnote 3 times and you seriously cannot believe Light is L's quasi-identical...
Light - LIE
Misa - SEE
Near - ILI
Mello - SLE
Lawliet - LII
All fairly obvious to me, Misa and L are conflictors, L and Light are not quasi-identicals at all but L and Near are, and Mello is the latter's semi-dual...they clearly have that INTJ-ESTP grudge match thiing between them.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I actually mostly agree with your typings, I'd just found Matsuda to be more of an SEI.
And Mello is more likely SEE... He was often accused of being "dumb", and I see him more as being Ti PoLR than Ti Creative.
He surely was E3, trying really hard to be admired and successful, but not quite succeeding at it.
When did he get accused of being dumb, other than with his own inferiority complex? He was from an orphanage of gifted individuals.
Matsuda was a person who was literally accused of being an idiot in multiple episodes, such that it became a catchphrase. If that's how you want to see Ti PoLR, the example suits Matsuda, not Mello.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
This "grudge match" thing between an ILI and an SLE is something I've noticed before, but I didn't previously associate it with their socionics types. When two guys of these respective types are just working together on business-related things (writing contracts and proposals) (Ti-Te), they are both vocal in their lack of respect for each other (Fi-Fe). But they recently had to work together for a few days in the field, coordinating their actions and setting up some complex equipment (Se-Ni), and when they returned, it was like they were in love with each other. That didn't last long, though.
I actually thought Mello was EIE.
・゚*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:・゚
EIE is closer than SEE for him, but his social skills aren't good enough for EIE. Also, he's too smart.
Here, I'll pull up the Death Note character stats for you guys to look and decide for yourselves. These can be found on the Death Note Wikia, but again, these are official stats written by the creators of Death Note.
Mello
Intelligence 7/10[1] Creativity 7/10[1] Initiative 10/10[1] Emotional Strength 8/10[1] Social Skills 9/10[1] Other Attribute Inferiority Complex: 8/10[1]
Matsuda
Intelligence 4/10 Creativity 5/10 Initiative 6/10 Emotional Strength 5/10 Social Skills 6/10 Other Attribute Unpredictability: 9/10
Light
ntelligence 9/10[1] Creativity 10/10[1] Initiative 8/10[1] Emotional Strength 10/10[1] Social Skills 10/10[1] Other Attribute Acting Skills: 10/10[1]
Near
Intelligence 9/10[1] Creativity 10/10[1] Initiative 6/10[1] Emotional Strength 10/10[1] Social Skills 1/10[1] Other Attribute Life Skills: 1/10[1]
L
Intelligence 8/10[1] Creativity 10/10[1] Initiative 9/10[1] Emotional Strength 10/10[1] Social Skills 1/10[1] Other Attribute Sweet Tooth: 10/10[1]
Misa
Intelligence 3/10[1] Creativity 4/10[1] Initiative 10/10[1] Emotional Strength 6/10[1] Social Skills 10/10[1] Other Attribute Charm: 10/10[1]
Mikami
Intelligence 8/10 Creativity 7/10 Initiative 8/10 Emotional Strength 10/10 Social Skills 5/10 Other Attribute Loyalty: 10/10
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Doomed to failure in American society.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
Gamma duality has major problems these days. Yes it is due to the exploitative nature of unbridled Capitalism. There must be hard limits and regulations to keep everyone sane and in the intelligent can remain intelligent without devolving into mud slinging. The fact that my SLI wife is claiming to be an ESI is proving that the disturbance is having a noticeable ripple effect.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
What are those problems you are talking about exactly?
That's odd. I know of more Duality couples from the U.S than from Europe.
And also, I don't see why your wife or anyone for that matter (mis?)typing themselves as ESI means Gamma Duality is doomed.
I see obliviousness to catastrophe is still at an all time high. I hope when Obama steps out of office doesn't literally wreck your expectations of duality. Adam is probably intitially sexually attracted to my SLI wife more than he ever will at first with his own dual. That will weigh very heavily on her for her entire life, making that really messed up a thing to do. It's happened multiple times, which is why you never fall for your own Supervisor; you'll regret falling in love with them in the end. Me wife is a dandy SLI, not ESI, don't get your hopes up, people.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
First you are implying that Gammas would fall for their Supervisor before their Dual, but then you say they won't? Or rather, they regret the love... Well.
It seems like most people would regret falling for their Supervisor.
So, I am wondering – Do you believe everyone falls more often for their Supervisor than their Dual first? This is an interesting thought.
Based on my experiences, it seems like LIE men do fall for their SLI Supervisor more often than their Dual (at first). I do not see this happening with the other Gammas as often, though. ESIs (especially the females) often date their Supervisee (SLE) but not really their Supervisor (IEE). With ILIs there does not seem to be a trend of them dating either a Supervisor (EIE) or Supervisee (LSE), they tend to date any other type before those two. Female SEEs do have a tendency to date their Supervisor (LSI) before their Dual, but this could just be a matter of ILIs being less common than LSIs (IME). Having said that, from all Gammas, I find SEEs (mostly the males) end up with their Dual the most often. (The female SEEs commonly end up with their Mirror, while the male SEEs who do not marry their Dual marry their Mirage partner instead.)
As far as I know, LIE-ESI Duality tends to only really occur later in life, usually when the LIE is at least in his middle age.
While SEE-ILI Duality tends to happen sooner (and later).
I know an older LIE (f)- ESI (m) couple who have been married 30+ years, and are very happy together. They both worked until retirement (actually, she is old enough to retire but is a workaholic, and still working full-time in her very stressful but well-paying job). She earned/earns way more money than he did/does, which that seems to have been their biggest, maybe only, source of stress in the relationship, but they've made it work and adore each other.
(It's interesting to me, btw, that she has always driven fancy cars whole he has always had nice but much less expensive ones...I don't know them well enough to ask questions about it, but I would guess gender roles and pride account for that to an extent, based on what I do know and gather.)
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there as an example of a happy Gamma dual couple, together for a long time.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
Actually, I was not very sexually attracted to my SLI ex. What I liked about her was the fact that she fit all the items on my "list", which were (explicitly) that she be intelligent, thin, have red hair, be about my height (she is taller, and in heels is much taller), have a good job in a science field not my own, and be interested in Astronomy. She also had the (implicit) virtue of being a rational introvert and of having the same personality as my father (), so I could (unknowingly) fix that relationship by marrying her. Bonuses were that we are equally attractive and look like a couple, she made almost exactly as much as I did when we married, and she didn't try to tell me what to do very often. Also, she is emotionally stable and very practical, an e5 to my e8.
I didn't know about Caregiver-Victim relations at the time we were dating. I just figured things would get better with time. I also didn't find Supervision too problematic, because she is SLI-Te, and looks much more like a Mirror to me in that respect.
So, I think my marrying a Supervisor is a one-off, a fluke, a very special case, and is not likely to be repeated by me or anyone else.
None of the LIE's I know irl are married to a dual. One LIE (an e3 professor) is married to an LII (Te-Ti attraction but Extinguishent), and they lead completely separate lives (surprise!). Another is married to what looks like an LSI (private half-dual, or Mirage), because LIEs find LSI to be extremely hot, and another is married to an EII (public half-dual, or Semi-Dual) because she is s helpful sweetheart. the only LIE-ESI-Se dual pair I can cite is a couple who sat next to me at a piano concert. He sat there stoically in a black suit and gold watch () and she, dressed in colors with a certain flair, coughed throughout the concert.
Of the five female ESI's I know irl, three are single and two are married to ILI's. One of the married ones implied that she wasn't getting enough sex, and the other seemed disappointed that her husband is so introverted. But, they both seem unlikely to change partners.
Well, better late than never.
I am looking for an ESI now, even though I have never exactly "dated" one before (for more than a 16 hour romp in the woods), and so can't speak from experience. The LSI's showed me that their form of half-duality can be pretty sweet in practice, and my acquaintance with an EII has shown me that that form of half-duality can be pretty supportive in practice.
Here is the strange thing: Even though I'm now looking for an ESI, and can recognize them irl and have seen enough of them to verify that they probably make up 10% of the female population, I can't seem to find a way to connect with them. They seem like air to me. The males are easy to connect with. But the females, not so much.
Well, I expect this will change when the right one comes along.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-31-2016 at 06:46 PM.
This is super-encouraging, @sapphire. And very good to hear.
I used to drive beater cars, which are ultra-cheap cars that you beat on until they die by the side of the road. My SLI-ex had a new car when we got married, and I then started buying S-class Mercedes because I'm not a great driver and they are very, very good in crashes and if I'm going to save one thing, it will be my family. But when we divorced, I switched to two-door sports cars ( shades of a mid-life crisis).
One thing I will say in her favor, she never cared how much money I made, and vice versa. That is Fi, in my opinion, and is what I need most. There was one year when I was starting my business when she made 100X what I did, and later I made 10X what she did, and it never was an issue. The money went into a pot, and we spent what we needed to spend on the family, and saved the rest.
Gamma rationals unfortunately frequently do; the price to pay for putting profits over humanity first unlike us valuers.
Unless they're already married and committed to one another yes, everyone who knows of duality regrets loving their Supervisor too much.
I don't really know why Gamma rational Duality is so broken. Maybe you should be telling me why Gamma rational Duality is so broken compared to all of the other Quadra Dualities.
Not naturally but in a professional workplace, yes.
Yes, because IEE don't really want to marry any Supervisee. Plus Beta and Gamma sensors have some of the rarest duals and thus intermarry quite often.
Most ILI are intelligent enough to know to attract their dual exclusively. Which is why I said Gamma rational duality is broken; the Gamma irrationals seem to know what they're doing in terms of forging an enduring love life.
I don't agree. In my experience both male and female SEE seek their dual for marriage or at least friendship. Female SEE do frequently find themselves with their dual. Mirages never marry anymore when they both can introduce one another to so many different people. That's just a fact of life.
*sigh* That's because Gamma rational duality is often times considered logically irrational; and couples don't realize that until their 30s. While Gamma irrational duality happens at a much younger age, they tend to not love one another until they are both into their 30s. There's too much variety in love interests to keep Gamma irrationals solely monogamous.
Sounds about right. The paragraph starts off great then makes your Beneficiary(IEE) want to vomit because of the middle and the ending.
I hate the term "Victim". egos would be better described as "Proposalists"; because they are always looking to stir something new up. Also yes, the Supervisee never has a problem with their Supervisor until the Supervisor has to romantically reject their Supervisee. Broken society is very broken.
It happens most often in societies that arrange marriages; which is unlikely in American Culture.
Goes to show how broken American Gamma duality in rationals really are. Everything you wrote sounds tragic to me.
What's wrong with a gold watch? Maybe daddy wants to show his sugar that he knows how to bling. LMFAO. Plus she sounds like she's completely wonderful due to her dual.
Well, I guess there's hope yet. You need to find more ways to bling though. creative just loves bling. True story.
Yep.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
Are you just freaking out regarding Gammas & gamma duality because (in your own words) you think your "wife" might leave you for an LIE bc she thinks she's ESI?
^time to not take socionics so seriously maybe? Could just be relationship issues.
I was actually hinting towards the fact that Supervision relations are emotionally pretty unstable and exhausting for both parties involved if they are too close. It's the worst when the Supervisor is not being very forgiving, self-aware and giving the other person enough space. Even under the most ideal conditions, the Supervisee will always feel more stressed out, due to the "PoLR hits" etc. The Supervisor may try to "control" his Leading function, but ultimately you are your Leading function, so the conflicts are inevitable. In short, people dislike Supervision even when being unaware of Duality, thanks to the nature of Supervision.
There you answered your own question.
As far as I know, ESI-LIE duality mostly occurs when the LIE is rich or (very) well-off financially. The entire "gold digger" culture (I'd call it a form of subculture; you may also look up "Sugar baby dating") is interestingly full of ESI models (amateur or "legit") trying to win the affection/money of rich LIE men. Of course there are exceptions, in that not all of those relationships are only gold digger-based, so to speak. You can have a loving relationship with ESI-LIE duality... But yeah, this is the point where I would say Rational Gamma Duality is "broken". The Rational Gamma Duality of the Rich usually happens between a female who is gorgeous thanks to plastic surgery and SP/SX, and a rich LIE guy who has been driven by his Se HA (and Self-preservation instinct, as well as being Type 3) to succeed financially – as I said, he is usually Type 3, and SO/SP. The ESIs who do not care as much about "the bling" and the "high life" tend to prefer other more introverted types like ILI or a fellow ESI. The LIEs who are SX/SO will likely not end up with an ESI, unless they magically become rich (or manage to get with an ESI who is less into "the bling lifestyle" and hasn't married an ILI or ESI yet). I am not saying it is impossible, but it seems rather unlikely (blame the SP blindspot and SX romantic idealism). SEE, LSI, EII, or even EIE seem to be the more likely life partners for SX/SO LIEs.
Good point. I'd agree that Ni ego types are the rarest. Many Socionics people like to believe the types are evenly distributed, but I highly doubt that, based on MBTI stats (well, flock me for looking at them haha ) and personal experience. I find it difficult to find fellow Ni ego types IRL. They are not common, people. If you believe so, you are either extremely lucky to be in a place frequented by Ni types, or you are just mistyping too many people, in my humble opinion.
Hm, interesting. It's true that ILIs are gifted with a good vision of what kind of partner they want and would like to/could attract. Also, their Fi is simply better than the LIE's, so they are more aware of what they actually like in a potential partner. With LIEs, I see they go through a lot of trial and error, something ILIs don't do much at all. They seem more slow energetically, and do not move forward as quickly as LIEs do, but once the time is right they are deliberate and find their Dual (or at least Activity or Mirage partner) to settle down with. They "don't play games". Those ILIs who have troubles with finding a good partner are stifled due to certain personal issues or insecurities that usually need to get resolved first. Once the ILI has gone through this phase, they are pretty good at finding a suitable partner.
Fair enough. My experiences/observations have simply been different in that regard. I actually don't really know any female SEE with their Dual in marriage, as I think about it. As I said, most of the female SEEs I know of marry their Mirror, sometimes their Mirage partner, a bit more rarely their Identical. I'd disagree with you saying people won't marry their Mirage if they have met many different people before. Mirage can be very appealing to many people – IME, there are many more Mirage marriages than Duality marriages. I believe it boils down to either the Dual being more rare and hence most people don't get in a relationship with one, and/or the Dual appearing too "daunting" or "foreign" to the person. A Mirage partner appears to be similar to your Dual, but because of the same Sensing/Intuition modality seems more relatable, too. That's why most people are much more comfortable becoming close to a Mirage partner than their Dual. With SEEs specifically, they are commonly very "high strung" people who have a lot going on in their lives. Mirage can have a calming and relaxing effect on the people involved, so it makes sense for SEEs (and SLEs) to enjoy this kind of arrangement over others, especially when they cannot find their Dual or the Dual seems "too weird" to them from afar.
To me this sounds like you don't really understand how the Victim Romance Style works. No, they are not looking to "stir things up", unless perhaps they have Aggressor tendencies. The Victim Romance Style is characterized by this belief in the dynamic nature of romantic interest. For the Victim, romantic attraction can be highly elusive, partly because it is so elusive in their own experience, so the Victim wishes to have their elusive interest become more solidified through clear indicators of interest or "intent" by the other person, preferably an Aggressor. Because the Victim often struggles with developing and showing clear romantic interest, as well as believing that attraction is such an elusive thing that could disappear in a moment's notice, they require the other to be secure and certain in their own interest. That is what makes the Victim Romance Style "victim-ish" – they are a Victim to their wavering (un)certainty regarding romantic interest, a victim to the other person being clear in their intent – and if they aren't, they'll be plunged into a sea of self-doubt and inactivity (especially the case for the Ni subtypes). Even if the Victim is more certain in their romantic interest and strongly infatuated, they won't be able to move forward with the relationship unless the other person has made their own interest very clear to them. This is why I find it pretty difficult to establish a romantic connection with fellow Victims – the ball is always in the other person's court with a Victim, and if both people are Victims, where the heck is the ball? The "more Victim" the guy, the worse it is. I'll have to get a ball, and that is not cool, ha. This is one of the reasons (a pretty significant one actually) why I am not in favour of dating a fellow Victim.
I have a degree in Engineering so LIIs will be everywhere I work and we get along fine. We simply keep to ourselves, I stay out of his or her way and the Supervisor pretty much leaves me alone. I'm guessing in your example there was an attraction by the Supervisee that wasn't returned by the Supervisor. That never ends well for the Supervisee. He may as well transfer to a new department or simply get a new job and quit if he can't deal with the added stress. It's also a learning experience as in any large workplace all of the 16 types will be quite well represented.
Yes, I agree that the materialistic nature of Gamma rational duality is the reason why it's so broken. Although what you've described sounds more like East Coast US Gamma duality. Out here on the West Coast ESI models will date then marry LIEs who earn a decent living but go out with their model of a gf/wife looking like a bum. lol We're much more relaxed out here, especially in California. Also, out here leads if with their dual but doesn't have a degree will work like a waitressing job to support their bf while paying to put themselves through school to receive a degree. Gamma duality is quite endearing to find out about out here on the other side of the country.
Outside of Academia, I practically never run into an Ni ego type other than the occasional IEI or EIE and sometimes even an LIE. I sometimes occasionally will bump into an ILI but usually are female and married therefore be less than willing to start a conversation with me. Online I tend to frequent places that all the Ni egos seem to enjoy, so I get to pick their brains through the magic of the internet.
Yes, very true that the ILI's Fi is much better than that of the LIE. That's where they majorly diverge and are thus mirrors due to that fact. Trying to get an LIE is like trying to extract a bad tooth from an unwilling patient but still tries to pay you afterward. lol Yes, LIEs are much more swift in action because that's how Ej dynamics are while Ip dynamics are more thoughtful and save their energy until they're ready to take action, if at all. Successful ILI don't really have a problem finding their dual. Most living in the US VI in such a stereotypical way it's almost eerie. An ILI simply needs to prove to the SEE that he or she can provide and that's all there is to the courtship.
You said you live in Europe. I can see that being the case since the concept wasn't introduced to Europe until about 140 years ago and the concept of duality wasn't known in Europe until about 25 years ago. There are a lot of factors in Europe specifically that make Duality seem less "logical". Around here though, those of us who do know of Duality pursue a Dual whenever possible. Heck, my wife traveled over 5000 miles (8000 km) to start a family with me. She wanted a Dual Husband that bad!
No, I understand the attachment styles very well. "Victim" isn't as good a word to use as "Proposalist". Since aggressors are all Static types they tend to be unchanging their ways and are the types to get stuck in a rut. Ni ego is characteristically change driven so they will always like to make new proposals to want to change something old. Ni ego types are also the type to become the most depressed if they feel that their life is stagnant or has no purpose or meaning. This is where their Aggressor comes into the picture by either making them feel better about themselves in some physical way or to help work their way through their woes.
Also, I remember a pretty funny event regarding the bring a ball part. An IEI who was the mutual friend with us all wanted to play a game of soccer (it's called football where this took place though) and invited us all to play on his field. His friends mostly consisted of Ni egos, including me and an SLE and SEE. When we all arrived at his field hilariously only two people brought a ball. Can you guess which two brought a ball to play with? lol We had a good time btw and we all ended up treating the only two who didn't forget to bring a ball to some drinks.
Last edited by MisterNi; 06-01-2016 at 07:18 AM.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
I was talking about the Supervision relation in general, not talking of one specific example, but all my experiences and observations with Supervision – both having been the Supervisee and Supervisor, and seeing how other Supervision interactions play(ed) out, especially in a romantic context.
You make it sound like most people in the U.S consciously pursue their Dual, and I don't see that happening at all. Socionics is nowhere nearly that popular, not even in Russia.
You are indeed describing the interaction between Se and Ni ego types, in terms of how they supply each other with their Dual-seeking/Mobilising function, but you do not really talk about the Romance Style itself there. When I talk about the Romance Styles in romantic contexts, I will use the "Victim" and "Aggressor" terminology. Outside of that, I find it misleading to use the terms.
Romantically, Beta-Gamma and Alpha-Delta Supervisor+Supervisee relationships have much chance of succeeding. Sometimes Alpha-Beta and Gamma-Delta relationships can work if everyone is sympathetic toward one another but Duality is overall like 10,000% better than any relation of Supervision. Supervision relationships rank among the bottom in terms of both endurance and endearment. I'd rate the relationship to only be nominally better than a long term Conflictor relationship.
I didn't say everyone in the US, I said around here and the people I know. I introduced MBTI then Socionics to my wife which afterwards is when she decided she wanted to be with me.
What I wrote applies in a romantic context as well.
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
You literally said the above (what I asked in my post): that LIEs were trying to sleep with your wife then you proceeded to go on a rant about gamma rationals.
Anyways, youz got issues. I think ignoring your posts is my only option to not be incessantly annoyed when I log in to this site; your posts do not seem to be slowing down. (But then again I did engage you this time).
No I didn't bb. There's no LIE trying to get with my wife and my wife is loyal. I wasn't ranting about Gamma rationals; I was telling all of you why Gamma rational Duality is currently broken in the US.
Please don't ignore me; ask me questions instead. Otherwise, no, no, no and No!
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
IEE Ne Creative Type
Some and role lovin too. () I too...
!!!!!!
-
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html