Beta Duality

[Adam Strange]

Indeed you will because now I'll need updates. This is juicy

You IEI's. So inquisitive. So imaginative.

[weirdleftovers]

You IEI's. So inquisitive. So imaginative.

A friendly reminder that I haven't forgotten about updates.

[Adam Strange]

A friendly reminder that I haven't forgotten about updates.

OK, @weirdleftovers, it has been a while but I finally got back there. The SLE saw me the minute I stepped through the door (even before I saw him - the guy is Se to the max) and greeted me "Adam! Good to see you again!" I glanced around for the IEI and found her on his far side. She wasn't waitressing, but is now hosting and taking phone orders. The SLE was too busy to talk, but I watched them working together, and they were like a well-oiled machine, just a continuous and easy flow of information between them, and both of them seemed happier than I've seen either of them before. Just slightly so, but definitely happier.

I wish I had more info, but that will have to wait until I talk to the SLE at length. In the meantime, they do kind of look like an odd couple. She looks friendly but remote, as if her brain is parked and ticking away in another dimension. She has enormous glasses and looks a bit like @Fay with a pageboy cut, and he looks like a collision between an extremely good looking guy (good bones), a tattooed biker guy, and has a hint of an extra from Battlefield Earth. I think he has a ponytail this week, but it changes a lot. He's in his 30's, but is already losing his hair, probably due to too much testosterone. When he moves, he just cuts a swath through the air, while she seems like she wants to retreat, but when she has to advance, considers her target and kind of pounces.

[sushi]

OK, @weirdleftovers, it has been a while but I finally got back there. The SLE saw me the minute I stepped through the door (even before I saw him - the guy is Se to the max) and greeted me "Adam! Good to see you again!" I glanced around for the IEI and found her on his far side. She wasn't waitressing, but is now hosting and taking phone orders. The SLE was too busy to talk, but I watched them working together, and they were like a well-oiled machine, just a continuous and easy flow of information between them, and both of them seemed happier than I've seen either of them before. Just slightly so, but definitely happier.

I wish I had more info, but that will have to wait until I talk to the SLE at length. In the meantime, they do kind of look like an odd couple. She looks friendly but remote, as if her brain is parked and ticking away in another dimension. She has enormous glasses and looks a bit like @Fay with a pageboy cut, and he looks like a collision between an extremely good looking guy (good bones), a tattooed biker guy, and has a hint of an extra from Battlefield Earth. I think he has a ponytail this week, but it changes a lot. He's in his 30's, but is already losing his hair, probably due to too much testosterone. When he moves, he just cuts a swath through the air, while she seems like she wants to retreat, but when she has to advance, considers her target and kind of pounces.

i always enjoy reading your stories you're such a great writer

[Olimpia]

[Olimpia]

Another ♂SLE-♀IEI pair.

It would be appreciated if anyone could tell me who the artist is.

[inabox]

americans-poster.jpg

o-THE-AMERICANS-GQ-facebook.jpg

kerri-russell-matthew-rhys-300x200.png

The Americans (FX); the female protagonist is LSI-Ti and the male lead is Fe-ENFj; if anyone wants to see the detriments or evils of the demonstrative (the downfall) see Elizabeth's Si demonstrative in action.

I think Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys are also beta duals IRL, although Keri could be Fi-ESI but Matthew is defintiely Fe-EIE.

[inabox]

Daredevil, Ni-INFp (1w2-6w5-2w3 sx/so) and Elektra, Se-ESTp (7w8-2w3-8w9 sx/so) ; great demonstration of victim-aggressor dynamics and interplay between Fi-demonstrative and Te-demonstrative:

[nekobolas]

4ziZ45u.jpg1000509261001_2010633888001_Wallis-Simpson-Rule-Over-Prince-Edward-VIII.jpg

[Olimpia]

4ziZ45u.jpg1000509261001_2010633888001_Wallis-Simpson-Rule-Over-Prince-Edward-VIII.jpg

Somehow this reminds me more of Delta Duality (or rather Activity).
Especially the first pic looks like the female employing something random, out of the norm thing – levitating (Ne ego), and her partner finds that surprising/secretly amusing (Ne seeking or HA).
Just my thoughts. I don't exactly see how those pics display an Aggressor-Victim dynamic, or anything Beta related.
I get more Childlike-Caretaker vibes from this... @Maritsa, what do yo think?

[Adam Strange]

Somehow this reminds me more of Delta Duality (or rather Activity).
Especially the first pic looks like the female employing something random, out of the norm thing – levitating (Ne ego), and her partner finds that surprising/secretly amusing (Ne seeking or HA).
Just my thoughts. I don't exactly see how those pics display an Aggressor-Victim dynamic, or anything Beta related.
I get more Childlike-Caretaker vibes from this... @Maritsa, what do yo think?

@SisOfNight, I agree about the Caregiver-Childlike dynamic. Wallis Simpson looks very Delta to me. In fact, in the second picture, she looks very much like my LSE mother. Very similar expression, very similar eyes, while Prince Edward VIII looks ILE to me. (In the first picture, I can't tell which type he is.)
In the second picture, I imagine her to be thinking "You are so smart, I'm proud of you and I'm going to be taking care of you." while he is thinking "Now that my back is covered, I'm finally free to be my impish, devilish self."

[Olimpia]

@SisOfNight, I agree about the Caregiver-Childlike dynamic. Wallis Simpson looks very Delta to me. In fact, in the second picture, she looks very much like my LSE mother. Very similar expression, very similar eyes, while Prince Edward VIII looks ILE to me. (In the first picture, I can't tell which type he is.)
In the second picture, I imagine her to be thinking "You are so smart, I'm proud of you and I'm going to be taking care of you." while he is thinking "Now that my back is covered, I'm finally free to be my impish, devilish self."

Thanks for clearing up who they are, I had no idea.
And yep, pretty much Caregiver-Childlike vibes...

[YXPR]

LSI girl - EIE guy ?
The way she balances his Fe/Ne so that the performance doesn't become a huge mess is pretty damn cool.
The synergy is incredible.
When he runs to her

[inabox]

(I feel old, lol)

Charlies 2w3-7w6-9w8 (??) Fe-EIE so/sx (definitely) // Dani Ti-ISTj 6w5 - 4w5- 8/1 (??) sx/sp (yusss)

So I have a weakness for shows where the EIE is a guy and the LSI is a lady (eg The Americans); maybe it's because EIE are my quasis and their duals look like my duals from a distance. Anywho, I loved, loved this show. It, like other good Ti based shows (eg Crazy ExGirlfriend shrugs), had seamless writing and despite being cancelled in season 2, it ended pretty perfectly. The show was Beta-ish (the values of Fe-Ti connectivity; the heroism that can be found in Ni-Se). It also had the rare sx/sp fictional characters; my instinctual subtype, needless to say, is not easily found in fiction. Dani/Charlie had loyalty between themselves and you could see the seamless flow of information from one to the other; their work was well coordinated and heartwarming.

This scene is one of many favourites:

life.jpg

Narrator: "What we learned as children, that one plus one equals two, we know to be false. One plus one equals one. We even have a word for when you, plus another, equals one. That word is love."

[wacey]

Testosterone doesn't make you loose your hair - if it's hormone related it's actually di-hydrostestosterone, which is a derivative of testosterone which is about 3 times more potent as an androgen than testosterone. You can have lower amounts of TT (total testosterone) but a higher level of the available testosterone is DHT (di-hydrotestosterone), so you can't really say high testosterone = baldness,if it is testosterone related.

Which is kinda interesting because in America I've heard that TRT testosterone replacement therapy is big business, if you came to Europe and spoke to your doctor about "Low T" he would maybe think you are referring to an American rapper. So maybe that you're American is why you bring it up at all.

Besides you have strange ideas about SLE I think, supposing an SLE had 'low T' and it's symptoms as you understand it, would you type them something else then I wonder. I've seen lazy low functional depressed SLEs.just like not every LSE directs the planet, some LIEs don't care about business but want to make it big in the music business, getting all sorts of fantasies and dropping out of education and career.

Not trying to have a go at you, just trying to see where you are coming from more, I think you have rose tinted glasses about types and inter-type relations, and then I got carried away with correcting factual inaccuracies and educating haha.

Just want to comment on this, not the other stuff thats between you and Adam. Lots of young 20 something's do loose their hair when taking steroids, its kind of a side effect. Not only young guys either, older guys have the same issue. Its because testosterone molecule metabolizes into DHT, effecting the hair follicle. This is genetically determined, so if you have the hair loss predisposition, it will be accelerated by the addition of extra testosterone. Some high T people do have a male pattern baldness look to them.

Although you might be right regardless, because again it comes down to genetics and how they are influenced by hormones. My siblings are all loosing their hair and I am not at all so, gulp, fingers crossed.

[Chae]

LSI girl - EIE guy ?
The way she balances his Fe/Ne so that the performance doesn't become a huge mess is pretty damn cool.
The synergy is incredible.
When he runs to her

This is great! Yes, LSI/EIE sounds good.

[Pallas]

OK, why the heck are almost all the beta duality pictures on this thread SLE warrior dudes and IEI dreamy magical women? That's definitely beta artwork but as a dynamic I find that a bit repetitive. I want to see a picture of what people think an EIE and LSI look like together. I guess no one cares about the Js because they're too rigid or whatever Also people tend to be overwhelmingly picking male extraverts and female introverts. I didn't think gender had any correlation with introversion or extraversion, although the last graphic I saw did have it have a weak correlation with logical vs. ethical types.

I do think any picture with a knight and a princess is a male Victim/female Aggressor themed picture though. I mean, Knight and Princess are often terms I use in my own idiosyncratic way to refer to the Victim and Aggressor relationships since Victim and Aggressor imply some sort of Dom/Sub thing sexually that I don't really see playing out at all. The way I understand Victim was "wants someone to love abstractly" and Aggressor was "wants someone to abstractly love them" from the descriptions. (Infantile and Caregiver would be "wants someone to love concretely" and "wants someone to concretely love them" according to the same logic. That's actually really intuitive once you think about it in terms of Intuition vs. Sensing and Dynamic vs. Static, with the Statics viewing love as a static state regarding the other partner, and Dynamics as a dynamic state. It seems somehow that the people you're supposed to romance are probably not people you'd get along with at all personally? That's weird.)

[Tigerfadder]

This seem to be the theme

sword-of-truth-cover-6.gif

[Pallas]

Yes, and no one cares about EIEs or LSIs.

I am pretty sure at a social event once I've talked to a couple who was an SLE woman and an IEI man. I mean, she looked pretty athletic and he looked like a hippy and they were definitely betas.

[Shiver]

It would be appreciated if anyone could tell me who the artist is.

No idea, but I do have a full suit of custom-fitted plate armour. Seems relevant.

[hag]

SLE & IEI?



[x]

[Gypsy]

I have a few images here.

(Yes, I'm typing at EIE now. Bite me )

[Olimpia]

americans-poster.jpg

o-THE-AMERICANS-GQ-facebook.jpg

kerri-russell-matthew-rhys-300x200.png

The Americans (FX); the female protagonist is LSI-Ti and the male lead is Fe-ENFj; if anyone wants to see the detriments or evils of the demonstrative (the downfall) see Elizabeth's Si demonstrative in action.

I think Keri Russell and Matthew Rhys are also beta duals IRL, although Keri could be Fi-ESI but Matthew is defintiely Fe-EIE.

Ah good to know where those images come from.
I took one of them, and put them into the Gamma Duality thread.
I still think they fit Gamma Duality better somehow.

[Olimpia]

I have a few images here.

(Yes, I'm typing at EIE now. Bite me )

All of those images are very Type 4, and while I like them, I don't think they actually represent Beta Duality.
The men seem to be valuing, and I get the impression this might fit into Gamma Duality better.
(Or at least it seems like most of the people are Gammas or Gamma with Beta, not necessarily Gamma Duality.)

[Olimpia]

Ofc not all SLEs are male and buff, and not all IEIs are female, but it is certainly much easier to find images of those archetypes, than the opposite.

It is not a matter of me not recognizing female SLEs or whatever, it is a matter of simply hardly finding any artwork of such couples.

I did find an EIE-LSI example, and a male IEI-female SLE example, and an example of an SLE-Ti dude who is not buff.
But I suppose you just ignored all those.

[Olimpia]

SLE & IEI?



[x]

The girl with the heart necklace is supposed to be SLE?
Based on that hesitant and self-doubting question of whether the other notices her, I'd guess she is Dynamic and either Caretaker or Victim herself, actually.

[Olimpia]

The way I understand Victim was "wants someone to love abstractly" and Aggressor was "wants someone to abstractly love them" from the descriptions. (Infantile and Caregiver would be "wants someone to love concretely" and "wants someone to concretely love them" according to the same logic. That's actually really intuitive once you think about it in terms of Intuition vs. Sensing and Dynamic vs. Static, with the Statics viewing love as a static state regarding the other partner, and Dynamics as a dynamic state. It seems somehow that the people you're supposed to romance are probably not people you'd get along with at all personally? That's weird.

I don't see how the conclusion must be that that the romance styles are incompatible, or in your words "probably not people you'd get along with at all personally".
When someone wants to love abstractly, and the other wants to be loved abstractly, then both halves fit together perfectly, no?

I suppose you are assuming the best kind of compatibility is amongst people who want the exact same thing.
For example, both people wanting to love abstractly or being loved abstractly.

Following that, Identity relationships would probably be ideal for you.

And to be fair, the best relations in Socionics are technically Duality and Identity.
If you want a complement, Duality is the way to go. If you want someone like you, Identity is the way to go.

[ashlesha]

The girl with the heart necklace is supposed to be SLE?
Based on that hesitant and self-doubting question of whether the other notices her, I'd guess she is Dynamic and either Caretaker or Victim herself, actually.

It's the opposite, I'm quite sure. The bad girl is meant to be sle.

[Olimpia]

It's the opposite, I'm quite sure. The bad girl is meant to be sle.

The "bad girl" seems to be Type 4.
(She fits the gothic/emo Type 4 stereotypes.)

I haven't ever known an SLE who was Type 4...
Guess that's just me, but I am inclined to believe SLE 4s don't exist.

[GuavaDrunk]

The girl with the heart necklace is supposed to be SLE?
Based on that hesitant and self-doubting question of whether the other notices her, I'd guess she is Dynamic and either Caretaker or Victim herself, actually.

I took it as the blonde girl being IEI and the troublemaker being SLE. The troublemaker is shown as 'not a good girl', is my guess, which could imply Se-dom carelessness wrt acting 'ladylike'. She would fit the SLE stereotype of strong-headed and the blonde the stereotype of introverts not feeling good enough for extroverts, and of feeling the pull towards 'Se' but not knowing what to do with it, especially if she's never met a dual before.

The work has more to do with 'good, conservative person meets rebellious, bad person and they balance each other out'. An ESTx-INFx archetype, afaik.

[Tigerfadder]

It's the opposite, I'm quite sure. The bad girl is meant to be sle.

Not sure, it might be even so that the one with the heart necklace is IEE and the other one is SLI from my POV.

[Olimpia]

From my POV, the blonde seems to be Alpha SF, and the emo/goth chick seems to be ESI.

[ashlesha]

I'm not going to seriously type drawn characters, but there is a certain archetype, @GuavaDrunk got it.

[Olimpia]

I took it as the blonde girl being IEI and the troublemaker being SLE. The troublemaker is shown as 'not a good girl', is my guess, which could imply Se-dom carelessness wrt acting 'ladylike'. She would fit the SLE stereotype of strong-headed and the blonde the stereotype of introverts not feeling good enough for extroverts, and of feeling the pull towards 'Se' but not knowing what to do with it, especially if she's never met a dual before.

The work has more to do with 'good, conservative person meets rebellious, bad person and they balance each other out'. An ESTx-INFx archetype, afaik.

Hm okay, from that specific kind of interpretation it would kind of work.
I wouldn't interpret it that exact same way, esp. not on first sight, that's why I personally wouldn't have posted this in this thread.

[darya]

I took it as the blonde girl being IEI and the troublemaker being SLE. The troublemaker is shown as 'not a good girl', is my guess, which could imply Se-dom carelessness wrt acting 'ladylike'. She would fit the SLE stereotype of strong-headed and the blonde the stereotype of introverts not feeling good enough for extroverts, and of feeling the pull towards 'Se' but not knowing what to do with it, especially if she's never met a dual before.

The work has more to do with 'good, conservative person meets rebellious, bad person and they balance each other out'. An ESTx-INFx archetype, afaik.

IEI's are not the picture of good and conservative though. While they're usually quite gentle and reserved in demenour, I wouldn't describe them as prudish and conservative at all - and in all describtions they are described as quite rebelious, looking for stimulation, often reckless, quickly bored and agressive/manipulative with people they're closed to (when they don't get their way). They certainly have a bite of an angsty teenager and are familiar with the dark side - far from pristine creatures.

[darya]

That said, the blonde girl could be SEI and the black girl gamma introvert - which ofc doesn't make any sense.

[Gypsy]

All of those images are very Type 4, and while I like them, I don't think they actually represent Beta Duality.
The men seem to be valuing, and I get the impression this might fit into Gamma Duality better.
(Or at least it seems like most of the people are Gammas or Gamma with Beta, not necessarily Gamma Duality.)

Whether they are type 4 or not is up for debate honestly.

But, how do they show Gamma duality and exactly? I notice a similar theme with my images as most of the others posted here. I see more of an male aggressor and a female victim in these. I actually deleted a couple of them as I saw they were already posted before.

[Olimpia]

Whether they are type 4 or not is up for debate honestly.

But, how do they show Gamma duality and exactly? I notice a similar theme with my images as most of the others posted here. I see more of an male aggressor and a female victim in these. I actually deleted a couple of them as I saw they were already posted before.

The long-haired guys seem to be Pseudo-Aggressor (aka Gamma NT), and the others like ESI.
That's just my impression. Again, I suppose it depends on how you interpret it all.

[Gypsy]

The long-haired guys seem to be Pseudo-Aggressor (aka Gamma NT), and the others like ESI.
That's just my impression. Again, I suppose it depends on how you interpret it all.

See, I see the females as dramatically expressive in an way. She's completely submitting to him. He, rather is being possessive and initiating with

That's my interpretation anyway.

[Resonare]