Arrogance of the Hidden Agenda

[Myst]

After hanging out with my LSI-Se cousin and ILE-Ti brother yesterday, I've noticed how much they put my Ti usage to shame, haha. Meaning, their display of Ti competency has humbled me a lot. I've realized we tend to overestimate the strength of our mobilizing function, especially when we are of the Inert subtype.


In my case, I have developed a slight arrogance in terms of me using my Ti. Basically, I thought I was much better at it than I really am. I can see most people having this slight blindness when it comes to their HA. In comparison with others of your type, or those who are weak at your mobilizing function, you may think you are competent at it. But once you see people employing this function to the best degree, it is apparent how much mistaken you were.


I give you the task of hanging out with at least one person, preferably more, who's got your mobilizing function as their first (best option) or second function. And observe how much more proficient their use at it is, in comparison to you, haha. Besides that, how have been your interactions with people who are strong at your HA? And I am talking of "real life" interactions here.

Haha well I'm contact subtype and I never thought my Ni was that great Well sometimes I think I got a great insight or something but I'm not carried away for too long. I like to be with people who have Ni in ego, for sure, I'm pretty strongly Ni seeking, it was never a question that these people have something I do not have and I find it amazing. I'm not sure what specifically you want to know about interactions with such people. Can you elaborate? I don't feel shamed by them or anything like that. Just that amazement and enjoyment and I like to analyse the Ni input.

[nondescript]

I'm not sure if you understand what 1% really means. 1% is high when talking about populations.

I'm also not sure if you understand IQ. Because average IQ is actually not that much. 68ish% of the population is 1 standard deviation from from 100 ut the 34ish% below norm are certainly not average because they have great difficulty in life as a whole, they certainly don't live average lives, more below average lives often quite difficult. The rest that's way outliers below 1 standard deviations usually are in jail or are often disabled.

So when you're talking about "average people", which is basically people 1 standard deviation above norm, you're really talking about 30% of the population, above that things look pretty good, below that, things look somewhat bad.

Almost everyone you meet will be not normal, 70%... and this is just IQ, not counting various other outliers.

Given the 15% of the population are 1 standard deviation above the norm, it's 1 in 2 chance you will meet a above average person vs person and when you count the 50% who are below the norm, chances are, there will be a big asymmetry in a lot of interactions.

However we humans have sort of organized ourselves in a way that people of similar (1 standard deviation apart) cluster somewhat, so take this forum, it's likely at least 1 standard deviation above norm.

Now I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're 1 standard deviation above norm, but there are many people here on this forum who are 2 standard deviation above the norm, 130ish+, you're probably not one of them given your lack of understanding in various topics or even basic statistics. In this forum of 2000+ registered users there's at least 60 of them and given the topic, probably quite a lot more. Chances are you're talking to some of them right now, but you probably can't notice because it's pretty impossible for someone of lower intellect to understand they're talking to someone of higher intellect.

And, oh by the way, I have met a Nobel Prize Winner before, I used to live in one of his family houses and he came to visit.

What SD are you talking about? 10, 12, 15?

[nondescript]

I was not exactly ashamed about my Ti, I just realized I have been more confident in it than I should be, haha.

They both were talking about how certain technical things worked, about which I had no clue at all.

For instance, at one point my LSI cousin was tightening the screws of some smaller device.
Me: "What's this?"
LSI: "A hard drive. Never seen this before?"
Me: "Nope..."
ILE: "Probably not, she's using Mac."
LSI: "Oh, sure. The worst."
*both laugh*

Or this.
ILE at the LSI's PC: "What are you using? Windows 10?"
LSI: "Sure."
ILE: "Meh, Windows 7 is much better."
LSI: "Not really. Have you seen the graphics alone? The picture goes for the Windows 8.1 at the rate of *so-and-so* [He was explaining how many frames per second were being used in games for the Windows 8.1... I had little to no idea what he was talking about, haha, and I've forgotten most of it.]... Basically, the difference between Windows 7 and 8.1 was already a massive improvement."
ILE: "Nah, Windows 7 is still better. Better interface."
LSI: "Nope! Well, what do you have?"
ILE: "Windows 8.1"
LSI: "See? Not Windows 7."
ILE: "Yeah yeah".
And I have stayed silent the whole time, haha.

Sis, that is not Ti. That is tech talk. I can talk about fps, gfx cards, hdds etc, but I wouldn't necessarily say I'm a Ti ego. I wouldn't say that at all. Or when I start talking about various nerdy aspects I have about me(did you know that Red Protoss shouldn't in fact use Dark Templar stuff and that Orange ones should be an aerial unit overload?). But it's all practical. If anything, that is Te talk, not Ti talk.

But not everything is type related. Tech talk by itself is type neutral(believe it or not). It is WHY they are talking about hardware that's important(which will most likely boil down to Fi-Te axis). Perfect example: Pablo Picasso was in fact a SiTe-a thing one would never assume given how deceptively extroverted he was(but then again he was a spaniard) and from his pictures. But if you truly know data about Picasso, the fact he is an SLI is crystal clear. So, a T pref artist, who would've thought? Actually, any sane person because there were a LOT of artists(hell even actors!) who clearly prefer T over F.

[nondescript]

I can definitely relate to the experience of having a conflictor parent, and how much more it sucks (imo) in the particular case of an extraverted, logical conflictor in a position of authority over an introverted, ethical, intuitive child. There have been times when I know beforehand that I should not take my LSE mother's advice, and yet I'm bullied into it bc I don't want to hurt her feelings and also bc she's Se demonstrative, after all - she can definitely be a bully. Which she denies later, of course. I'm in my late 20s now, and I'm still figuring out new ways to diffuse the conflict with my mother while still remaining on cordial terms with her. It is exhausting.

And as for arrogance with your HA, I get that too, and I think you're right. An IEI's grasp of Ti matters is very internal and intuitive, and once in a while it comes out into the open and astounds everyone with its coherency. I had an ESE roommate, who thought I was a logical wunderkind, even though I was only using Ni with her. And then you realize you actually are out of your depth in front of a Ti-user (except for LIIs, they are too slow).

The problem with using computer/tech examples to show this is that I think all logical types display a competency with this, that can be impressive regardless if they are using Ti or Te. I'm from Silicon Valley, so I grew up with a lot of tech speak and nothing is new or unknown to me, but I will still freak out about small operational things, which both my ILI brother and LSI partner approach pretty much the same way.

One difference though, is my LSI partner is much more likely to tell me not to worry about whatever I'm worrying about. "Surveillance? There's millions of people's data everywhere, why would anyone want to go after your data?" That kind of thing, and it really reassures me. My ILI brother, on the other hand, will try to freak me out even more, tell me that I need to be a lot more careful with everything, and basically NOT reassure me.

This is not Ti < - > Te difference, but rather Se < - > Ni difference. YAY!

[Olimpia]

Tech talk by itself is type neutral(believe it or not). It is WHY they are talking about hardware that's important(which will most likely boil down to Fi-Te axis).

I could agree with that. (Except for the fact those guys are not Fi-Te.)

Perfect example: Pablo Picasso was in fact a SiTe-a thing one would never assume given how deceptively extroverted he was(but then again he was a spaniard) and from his pictures. But if you truly know data about Picasso, the fact he is an SLI is crystal clear. So, a T pref artist, who would've thought? Actually, any sane person because there were a LOT of artists(hell even actors!) who clearly prefer T over F.

Umm... He simply was IEE SX 7, who seemed to be a "T" because of him being E7. His behavior was not SLI at all, though. He's also exhibited this "Don Juan" behavior that has often been mentioned for male IEEs, not SLIs.
He might have tried to adopt more SLI characteristics as he got older: typical result of the dual-seeking manifesting itself.
At least we agree on his Quadra.

[nondescript]

I could agree with that. (Except for the fact those guys are not Fi-Te.)

Umm... He simply was IEE SX 7, who seemed to be a "T" because of him being E7. His behavior was not SLI at all, though. He's also exhibited this "Don Juan" behavior that has often been mentioned for male IEEs, not SLIs.
He might have tried to adopt more SLI characteristics as he got older: typical result of the dual-seeking manifesting itself.
At least we agree on his Quadra.

But his paintings aren't focused around made up things or the like(Ne domain). His paintings were focused around how he saw the world-subjective outlook on the sensual matter-Si last I checked. And don't worry about "descriptions", rather look for data proving you right. Now, I won't push this further because the Te focus could annoy you.

[Myst]

Except that in everyday life, you meet people of all intelligence levels, and it's extremely rare that you have a chance to compare two people of the identical intelligence levels. What's the point in examining a model of human interaction with no reference to reality? You're bending reality to fit your mould of what socionics predicts, when your concept of socionics should be adjusted to fit reality...

It's not extremely rare. There is such a thing as average, which is not extremely rare for sure. In any case, you can certainly compare people of similar enough intelligence so yes you can examine the model in reality. If you have a problem with thought experiments, why did you bring up a thought experiment yourself?

Hah the above is probably a decent example of an Arrogant HA sticking it's head up from under the pillows. Octo has you checkmated here SisOfNight, your original statement wasn't exactly Ti logical.

The topic is far more complex than what has been discussed so it's premature to say anyone checkmated someone else.

It matters how you define intelligent, it matters what other factors affect it, etc.

It's not just nitpicking, it's moving away from the asinine popular-MBTI-survey-based assumption that Ti-egos are automatically more proficient at Ti-related subjects, Te-egos are automatically more proficient at Te-related subjects, and therefore you could just give the entire population a maths test and type the top 50% T-ego when in fact the bell curves overlap a crazy amount.

I didn't interpret @SisOfNight to say that Ti egos are automatically better at Ti topics than anyone else. As she does mention she meant to take intelligence level into account. It was certainly a very simplified view though.

Most people are only subtly aware of their mobilizing function requirements, it's a vital ring function. However people can act out in this function(bold) usually in stressful/anxious situations or what not but the actions are usually requests to the individuals around them to fulfill the function. I wouldn't call it arrogant because most people aren't even aware of what they're looking for or doing.

&

Most individuals do not seek to control usage of their mobilizing function, these are areas of quite limited ability and awareness.

Oh yeah I always say I'm not that good at Ni, I've been just vaguely aware of my HA though throughout my life. Seems like recently I've focused on it more but it's still not in Ego for sure

I sometimes feel like oh I'm awesome with the focus on it, though, but that lasts for a very short time.

Naturally mimicry may not be as fluid as individualized behavior from the ego but it depends on practice. In these situations, it's very much just mimicry. Information have a level of ability to transform and overlap and these aid in mimicry.

Yeah I've seen myself do that mimicry thing.

[Myst]

One difference though, is my LSI partner is much more likely to tell me not to worry about whatever I'm worrying about. "Surveillance? There's millions of people's data everywhere, why would anyone want to go after your data?" That kind of thing, and it really reassures me.

Lol that sounds exactly like me.

[Myst]

"Go hang out with someone and you will feel inferior" is not a thought experiment. My thought experiment was just to show that at some point along the continuum, functional position would not translate to functional strength - it wasn't meant to be a realistic example, just an endpoint to extrapolate to.

Yeah and it looked like you two were actually in agreement there.

She said that...and then contradicted it with an example that was clearly all about proficiency in a topic she interpreted as Ti.

Yeah the original tech examples weren't the best ones. But I didn't see anything in that post that indicated all Ti egos are automatically better at Ti topics than anyone else when other factors are not controlled for.

[Myst]

I'm a bit sick of arguing about this tbh because I feel like we're just rehashing the same BS and SisOfNight has moved on from that here, but how is this not directly relating functional position to functional proficiency?

It's literally in the same sentence, if it was reformatted into complete sentences.

I'm viewing all her posts together, not just that one sentence, which shows she was assuming other factors were controlled for the comparison (such as intelligence). I also said that she did express her thoughts in an oversimplified way. Not sure what exactly you are disagreeing with? I don't mind btw, I just don't want to repeat the same stuff again so that's why I'm asking. If you don't feel like continuing this, that's fine too.

[carrina]

I agree this just sounds like people engaging in technology talk that was unfamiliar to you. You were less informed than these two people were about the tech.

I don't think it's about Ti, either. If I had to put it through the Socionics meatgrinder, I'd say you were taking very light Te polr hits because they were calling upon information you didn't have at the ready. I can further socionize this by saying that if you were talking to the LSI one-on-one it might not have happened, and with the ILE, maybe not, but the two of them together were on a roll.

Yeah it's pretty much just te

[IBTL]

Hidden agenda exposes a type's vulnerability because of the very nature of hidden agenda. HA is defined specifically as being unstable. It's difficult to get anywhere in a rocking ship.

[The Exception]

Here's a case in point of my 'arrogance.' My hidden agenda is Si. I tend to see myself as health conscious, aware of what I feel in my body. But then I was chatting with some people who can tell they are coming down with a cold *before* they start to experience any symptoms. I can't do that. I can pinpoint the symptoms when they are faint and just starting but not beforehand. So sometimes I tend to overestimate my skill with Si.

[Myst]

Here's a case in point of my 'arrogance.' My hidden agenda is Si. I tend to see myself as health conscious, aware of what I feel in my body. But then I was chatting with some people who can tell they are coming down with a cold *before* they start to experience any symptoms. I can't do that. I can pinpoint the symptoms when they are faint and just starting but not beforehand. So sometimes I tend to overestimate my skill with Si.

Without experiencing any symptoms, by definition you cannot detect you are coming down with something, lol.

What exactly did they mean by that though?

[The Exception]

Without experiencing any symptoms, by definition you cannot detect you are coming down with something, lol.

What exactly did they mean by that though?

I'm guessing other bodily signs that aren't the same signs as the illness itself.

[Myst]

I'm guessing other bodily signs that aren't the same signs as the illness itself.

So you mean custom/idiosyncratic symptoms, ok. I don't think I focus on this myself much.

[The Exception]

So you mean custom/idiosyncratic symptoms, ok. I don't think I focus on this myself much.

Well an example would be feeling more tired or cranky before you get a cold before you actually get any cold symptoms. I do not notice that at all but some people claim to do so.

[Myst]

Well an example would be feeling more tired or cranky before you get a cold before you actually get any cold symptoms. I do not notice that at all but some people claim to do so.

Eh, feeling tired is a generic symptom of many illnesses. Now of course it's possible that these people do tune into different versions of feeling tired beyond the general feeling and can associate it with a cold coming up specifically. I myself can't be bothered to analyse this sort of stuff in such a fine tuned way.

[bolong]

This is not Ti < - > Te difference, but rather Se < - > Ni difference. YAY!

No, actually. Not at all.

[nondescript]

No, actually. Not at all.

?

[bolong]

Originally Posted by maithili

I can definitely relate to the experience of having a conflictor parent, and how much more it sucks (imo) in the particular case of an extraverted, logical conflictor in a position of authority over an introverted, ethical, intuitive child. There have been times when I know beforehand that I should not take my LSE mother's advice, and yet I'm bullied into it bc I don't want to hurt her feelings and also bc she's Se demonstrative, after all - she can definitely be a bully. Which she denies later, of course. I'm in my late 20s now, and I'm still figuring out new ways to diffuse the conflict with my mother while still remaining on cordial terms with her. It is exhausting.

And as for arrogance with your HA, I get that too, and I think you're right. An IEI's grasp of Ti matters is very internal and intuitive, and once in a while it comes out into the open and astounds everyone with its coherency. I had an ESE roommate, who thought I was a logical wunderkind, even though I was only using Ni with her. And then you realize you actually are out of your depth in front of a Ti-user (except for LIIs, they are too slow).

The problem with using computer/tech examples to show this is that I think all logical types display a competency with this, that can be impressive regardless if they are using Ti or Te. I'm from Silicon Valley, so I grew up with a lot of tech speak and nothing is new or unknown to me, but I will still freak out about small operational things, which both my ILI brother and LSI partner approach pretty much the same way.

One difference though, is my LSI partner is much more likely to tell me not to worry about whatever I'm worrying about. "Surveillance? There's millions of people's data everywhere, why would anyone want to go after your data?" That kind of thing, and it really reassures me. My ILI brother, on the other hand, will try to freak me out even more, tell me that I need to be a lot more careful with everything, and basically NOT reassure me.

This is not Ti < - > Te difference, but rather Se < - > Ni difference. YAY!

No, actually. Not at all.

?

You're suggesting that my ILI brother doesn't reassure me bc of Ni, but my LSI partner does reassure me bc of Se. And that it doesn't have anything to do with Ti or Te. Am I right?

[Myst]

You're suggesting that my ILI brother doesn't reassure me bc of Ni, but my LSI partner does reassure me bc of Se. And that it doesn't have anything to do with Ti or Te. Am I right?

I'm not sure why it is but ILIs do seem way too paranoid over simple issues that I see as unrealistic. So in that sense it can be a Se vs Ni thing. I don't think it's Ti vs Te either.

[nondescript]

No, actually. Not at all.



You're suggesting that my ILI brother doesn't reassure me bc of Ni, but my LSI partner does reassure me bc of Se. And that it doesn't have anything to do with Ti or Te. Am I right?

Yes, actually. Because Se is merely pointing out obvious things("Why would anyone target you specifically amidst an ocean of people online") vs Ni potentiality("You must always be aware-you never know what danger lurks behind the corner / in this case best be prepared for a possibility of surveillance so it's best to preempt it").

Te would just talk about what you could gain / lose or the types of surveillance(their weak / strong points, encryption etc) and Ti would analyse how that surveillance works and advise you about the best way to protect yourself. Do notice that it's different than what you wrote originally.

[bolong]

Yes, actually. Because Se is merely pointing out obvious things("Why would anyone target you specifically amidst an ocean of people online") vs Ni potentiality("You must always be aware-you never know what danger lurks behind the corner / in this case best be prepared for a possibility of surveillance so it's best to preempt it").

Te would just talk about what you could gain / lose or the types of surveillance(their weak / strong points, encryption etc) and Ti would analyse how that surveillance works and advise you about the best way to protect yourself. Do notice that it's different than what you wrote originally.

Maybe it's your tone, or your personal understanding of informational elements that I don't subscribe to, but none of this made sense to me.

I'm describing something very personal to me, subtleties of my relations with my partner and brother - it couldn't possibly get more intimate. And your redefining of that is nonsensical topicalities to me, also unimportant.

[bolong]

I'm not sure why it is but ILIs do seem way too paranoid over simple issues that I see as unrealistic. So in that sense it can be a Se vs Ni thing. I don't think it's Ti vs Te either.

And I think you're definitely LSE.

But let's not open that can of worms, eh?

[bolong]

@Myst @nondescript


I apologize for my last response, it would have been more helpful if I had explained my reasoning:

It’s easy for me to recognize when I’m getting Se and Ti from others. It’s not that easy with all 16, but these two are because of the exposure I’ve had to them in the recent years, and the intimacy of those relations.


Maybe my example (data/surveillance/whatever) wasn’t good, but to me that type of information affects my HA. “Ti” (whatever it is, whatever it stands for to others - for me, it’s what I perceive as the base function coming from my partner) usually “comforts” me, maybe you can say “calms” me. It feeds my HA so that settles down and doesn’t worry me. “Te” type of information usually does the opposite - worries me more.


Se does NOT calm me down. It attracts me, maybe repels me, mobilizes me, but it does not feed my desire “to understand.” You (nondescript) say that Se “states the obvious” and that’s what reassures me, but I really don’t understand that statement. I don’t understand the assumption that “Se states the obvious” or the assumption that a statement of the obvious would reassure me. You can’t just conjure them up!


And Myst, I don’t really think you’re LSE, but you’re pretty cool and I enjoy our interactions here

[Suz]

Here's a case in point of my 'arrogance.' My hidden agenda is Si. I tend to see myself as health conscious, aware of what I feel in my body. But then I was chatting with some people who can tell they are coming down with a cold *before* they start to experience any symptoms. I can't do that. I can pinpoint the symptoms when they are faint and just starting but not beforehand. So sometimes I tend to overestimate my skill with Si.

i can do that too (most of the time), and intervene with "remedies" and often stave it off. once in a blue moon, a virus just hits me really fast and really strong though and i end up having to succumb

[Suz]

Well an example would be feeling more tired or cranky before you get a cold before you actually get any cold symptoms. I do not notice that at all but some people claim to do so.

There are certain subleties that makes one feel like they are coming down with something. It's based on past experience. Just feeling more tired and cranky isnt it.

[Myst]

And I think you're definitely LSE.

But let's not open that can of worms, eh?

What, just because I didn't agree that this is a Ti/Te difference?

And no, I don't see how this is a "can of worms" because the suggestion is complete nonsense.

PS: If by any chance - which I find highly highly unlikely - you did honestly consider this with your own reasoning behind it, it's OK to post your reasoning in my type me thread.

EDIT: sry, I see your other post only now.

[Myst]

@Myst @nondescript

I apologize for my last response, it would have been more helpful if I had explained my reasoning

Yep I always like to see the reasoning of the person. No worries tho' I sure didn't see why you'd even make that suggestion on my type, lol

Maybe my example (data/surveillance/whatever) wasn’t good, but to me that type of information affects my HA. “Ti” (whatever it is, whatever it stands for to others - for me, it’s what I perceive as the base function coming from my partner) usually “comforts” me, maybe you can say “calms” me. It feeds my HA so that settles down and doesn’t worry me. “Te” type of information usually does the opposite - worries me more.

Se does NOT calm me down. It attracts me, maybe repels me, mobilizes me, but it does not feed my desire “to understand.” You (nondescript) say that Se “states the obvious” and that’s what reassures me, but I really don’t understand that statement. I don’t understand the assumption that “Se states the obvious” or the assumption that a statement of the obvious would reassure me. You can’t just conjure them up!

Well how I see it is that Ni can worry about certain things whereas Se sees them as much simpler in reality. That's how I perceive my interactions with those paranoid ILIs Also with EIEs. This is of course Se specifically coupled with Ti so that also plays a role in it but I don't think that in general it's just a Ti/Te difference. I think the Se counts in it too as explained above.

And Myst, I don’t really think you’re LSE, but you’re pretty cool and I enjoy our interactions here

[Emmym]

When I was dating an IEI, it definitely seemed that he was more "arrogant" about his Ti than I was, and the same was true of me with Si, yet his Si was better than mine and my Ti was better than his, lmao. He felt very proud of himself and got "puffed up" every time he managed to understand something. We would have the longest conversations about socionics, enneagram, etc, and it all fell on deaf ears until he managed to put some of the pieces together, and suddenly it fascinated him and he became absorbed by it, but not on a very deep level. For me, it's neither as hard nor as meaningful. For him, it was the same with Si. Cooking, cleaning, and all that other fuss wasn't as bothersome or exhausting as it is for me, but it wasn't regarded with all that much reverence. It was just seen as necessary drudgery.

[Myst]

When I was dating an IEI, it definitely seemed that he was more "arrogant" about his Ti than I was, and the same was true of me with Si, yet his Si was better than mine and my Ti was better than his, lmao. He felt very proud of himself and got "puffed up" every time he managed to understand something. We would have the longest conversations about socionics, enneagram, etc, and it all fell on deaf ears until he managed to put some of the pieces together, and suddenly it fascinated him and he became absorbed by it, but not on a very deep level. For me, it's neither as hard nor as meaningful. For him, it was the same with Si. Cooking, cleaning, and all that other fuss wasn't as bothersome or exhausting as it is for me, but it wasn't regarded with all that much reverence. It was just seen as necessary drudgery.

Both the HA and Role are 2D functions. I have not yet noticed any real difference in terms of how well these work. How did you figure your Ti was better than his? (Also assume similar enough intelligence levels here...)

[The Exception]

There are certain subleties that makes one feel like they are coming down with something. It's based on past experience. Just feeling more tired and cranky isnt it.

What exactly are these subtleties? Please share with me your Si wisdom.

[Suz]

What exactly are these subtleties? Please share with me your Si wisdom.

sigh... hard to describe.

i guess kind of a slight raw-ish feeling in the back of the throat/nose, kind of a sunken feeling behind the eye balls

[Olimpia]

When I was dating an IEI, it definitely seemed that he was more "arrogant" about his Ti than I was, and the same was true of me with Si, yet his Si was better than mine and my Ti was better than his, lmao. He felt very proud of himself and got "puffed up" every time he managed to understand something. We would have the longest conversations about socionics, enneagram, etc, and it all fell on deaf ears until he managed to put some of the pieces together, and suddenly it fascinated him and he became absorbed by it, but not on a very deep level. For me, it's neither as hard nor as meaningful. For him, it was the same with Si. Cooking, cleaning, and all that other fuss wasn't as bothersome or exhausting as it is for me, but it wasn't regarded with all that much reverence. It was just seen as necessary drudgery.

Both the HA and Role are 2D functions. I have not yet noticed any real difference in terms of how well these work. How did you figure your Ti was better than his? (Also assume similar enough intelligence levels here...)

EII-Ne is less good at Si than IEI-0 or -Fe (it would make sense if he was anything like that. With the Ni subtype of IEI, both your Si would be the same in strength though, theoretically).

[Olimpia]

I am so annoyed by people mistyping their HA function as their lead function. Again, I believe this boils down to the "Arrogance of HA".

Like, several LIE guys will want to mistype themselves as SLE. Just because SLE sounds more like something they'd like to be, especially in a society that encourages men to act like SLEs.
E8 LIE guys in particular want to be more like/see themselves to be SLE (it does not help the SLE descriptions are hardcore E8), so they'll see themselves as being strong Se lead while they are obviously Se HA. Honestly, this can seem pathetic to me very quickly.

"I totally use force."
"SLEs are supposed to be the best leaders. (I think I am the best leader.) I must be SLE."
...

[Myst]

EII-Ne is less good at Si than IEI-0 or -Fe (it would make sense if he was anything like that. With the Ni subtype of IEI, both your Si would be the same in strength though, theoretically).

Oh yeah individual differences can be it, I just wouldn't want to generalize to types that both have 2D Ti like the post seemed to.

[Chae]

Very interesting discussion. What I observed in the posts here, I feel that it makes a difference between whether the HA is extroverted or introverted. If it's introverted, it annoys YOU. If it's extroverted, it annoys EVERYONE. So the sense of inadequacy has a direction

Example from my grammar school days, I frustrated most of my fellow students by taking my E3-ness to an unnecessary maximum ("I have to be the best out of this bunch, I have to impress them, I have to beat everyone, I have to look richer, I have to be the most attractive one, I have to be strong and hardcore to survive this, I have to, have to, have to!") with Se applied in the wrong places and no expertise to back it up, add my social blindspot and you can imagine utter chaos. I only noticed that in hindsight. I wasn't really the best, the prettiest, the richest, the strongest. If one IS rich etc deliberately showing it off wouldn't even be necessary. I was so caught up in my relentless drive to move things back then, just annoyed by the actual repercussions that I was unable to connect to my behavior. I didn't acknowledge that my Se was so petty, merely bothered that my efforts were mocked.

[Exodus]

Both the HA and Role are 2D functions. I have not yet noticed any real difference in terms of how well these work. How did you figure your Ti was better than his? (Also assume similar enough intelligence levels here...)

I would say the Mobilizing function is definitely more able in general than the Role function. Even if not more inherently skilled, you could say it's something people try way harder at.

[Myst]

Very interesting discussion. What I observed in the posts here, I feel that it makes a difference between whether the HA is extroverted or introverted. If it's introverted, it annoys YOU. If it's extroverted, it annoys EVERYONE. So the sense of inadequacy has a direction

Doesn't apply to me. Unless you mean that I'm aware and willing to admit that my Ni (that's my HA) is weak and that it'd be only wishful thinking imagining it's stronger like in ego. But it doesn't really annoy me or make me feel inadequate usually, it's just a fact. Doesn't affect self-esteem in that way you seemed to imply with the word usage.

I would say the Mobilizing function is definitely more able in general than the Role function. Even if not more inherently skilled, you could say it's something people try way harder at.

I can't easily make myself try at it - I can't "load" the Ni process to work on it consciously. This fits with it being in Vital track. I can do this with the Role however. With the HA, I can sometimes try doing so by withdrawing for a short time from the ongoing situation and try to focus into "nowhere". Then it can give me something, surprisingly well sometimes, but it always feels like a tenuous connection, not something I could ever call having control over the process.

What I can do about my HA beyond that is, just spend time on topics that would need it or just are very Ni but then it's still just about getting lucky in getting it to give me something. So it's hard. Slightly easier than with Fe, sure, but still, not having much conscious control over it does get in the way (without me even noticing).

Typically it plays out like, it connecting the (Ni type of) dots only much later than I would have liked it to, but again this is something I don't even notice, only in retrospect, very much in retrospect. But when it does end up connecting them it often feels awesome Maybeee that's when it gets arrogant for a second hahah.

Also, the very Ni topics I sometimes read about or talk about... I can sometimes realize I'm able to apply some things from them later in my life, kinda seems like Ni norms of sorts lol but again it just feels like me getting lucky with fitting them to the situation/issue. At least the first time I manage to do it it feels that same tenuous connection I mention above. I can get more practice in some cases when the specific type of situation is repeating - but this of course shows how it isn't as adjustable an understanding than with the strong functions for sure.