Question for so-lasts

[silke]

I forgot to ask you, why do you say that the social instinct does not include socializing? A lot of the lists you copypasted here are directly about aspects of socializing. Really really do not understand your stance here, explain.

That's because I do not say that social instinct does not include socializing. People of all instinct stackings socialize as we're a social animal that needs to find friends, supporters, and mates among others. However, the mode of socialization, what one is putting out there and seeking from others, is different from stacking to stacking. The point that I made is that soc-lasts shouldn't be stereotyped as loners with hardly any friends per literal interpretation of instinct names "Soc=social, therefore Soc-last=sitting alone at home" - this is inaccurate. There are quite a few actors, celebs, and public figures who fall under soc-last stackings and who get much more social exposure than the average soc-first/middle poster on this forum.

Such as Louis CK - sp/sx



and Sarah Silverman - sp/sx

[Myst]

That's because I do not say that social instinct does not include socializing. People of all instinct stackings socialize as we're a social animal that needs to find friends, supporters, and mates among others. However, the mode of socialization, what one is putting out there and seeking from others, is different from stacking to stacking. The point that I made is that soc-lasts shouldn't be stereotyped as loners with hardly any friends per literal interpretation of instinct names "Soc=social, therefore Soc-last=sitting alone at home" - this is inaccurate. There are quite a few actors, celebs, and public figures who fall under soc-last stackings and who get much more social exposure than the average soc-first/middle poster on this forum.

The everyday definition of socializing matches the social instinct aspects you listed.

I don't think anyone who posted here has such a superficial stereotyped understanding that you assume here.

[silke]

The everyday definition of socializing matches the social instinct aspects you listed.

I don't think anyone who posted here has such a superficial stereotyped understanding that you assume here.

What's the "everyday definition of socializing" and how do you draw such a tight correlation from it to so?
Afaik social-firsts can and do have some downtime and may even isolate themselves from others, as per what @Olly From Wally World has mentioned of himself, and I'd like to hear both @GuavaDrunk's, @Lim's, and @SisOfNight's opinions on this seeing how they type as so/sx. Since you're equating socializing=social instinct, how do you explain this?

[Myst]

What's the "everyday definition of socializing" and how do you draw such a tight correlation from it to so?
Afaik social-firsts can and do have some downtime and may even isolate themselves from others, as per what @Olly From Wally World has mentioned of himself, and I'd like to hear both @GuavaDrunk's, @Lim's, and @SisOfNight's opinions on this seeing how they type as so/sx. Since you're equating socializing=social instinct, how do you explain this?

No one ever said being soc-first means having no downtime or that it means extraversion. It's a mode of being that takes into account people in general in a way that it makes you interested in and adapted to the social aspect of the environment.

Merriam-Webster lists these interpretations of the words socialize and social:

to talk to and do things with other people in a friendly way
to teach (someone) to behave in a way that is acceptable in society
to make social; especially: to fit or train for a social environment
to adapt to social needs or uses
relating to or involving activities in which people spend time talking to each other or doing enjoyable things with each other
of or relating to people or society in general
marked by or passed in pleasant companionship with friends or associates
of or relating to human society, the interaction of the individual and the group, or the welfare of human beings as members of society <social institutions>
tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others
living and breeding in more or less organized communities <social insects>

Clearly it's not simply about extraversion but about relating to people and society in a social fashion.

[marooned]

Hey you little so-lasts..

So I've been wondering.. just how little importance/value do you place on friendship groups/circles/organizations.. etc? What does being so-last truly look like/manifest in for you? I have a close friend who is sp/sx and it's almost terrifying to me how he genuinely doesn't need friendships outside of girls he dates.. He has zero interest in making same-sex friends because to him he doesn't see the point.. it's actually kind of repulsive to me because I don't relate to it at all.. We're really only good friends cause we used to date! LOL

I'm just wondering if this is also due to introversion and how an extraverted so-last would come across? How do you guys survive... hahaha

i'm extremely introverted and definitely a loner. in the past, friends i've made are usually due to being thrust into each other's company. some people in this thread mentioned that they don't keep up with friends well, which contributes to being a loner. that applies to me, but i'm not sure it's the main explanation. it takes a lot of "energy" for me to be social, and i get drained easily. really, having to interact with people at work 40 hours a week exhausts me, and i just long to be alone. the only time i seem to really have time for people is for close immediate family and if someone enters my life romantically, i flip entirely, and am able to spend all my time with that person. but i think it's because i merge with them, and somehow this doesn't drain my "energy." so, perhaps i am kind of like the friend you mention, but it's not necessarily because i don't need friends. it's mainly that with work in my life and all of those horrible superficial interactions, i just need so badly to be alone, safe from people "violating" me. i feel hugely violated and exposed (in a misrepresented way) and tortured really at work, and it takes the rest of my time to recover. after a day of work, i just shut myself up in my apartment for safety. sometimes i cry and shake. sometimes i just want to kill myself after a day of work.

As one of the few remaining Elite True Sx/Sps on here

oh dear. i hope you're not being serious...

Reposting this from the enneagram workshop notes. It sounds like quite a few responses are falling into the pit of literal interpretation of how the instincts were named e.g. "SO/Social" = social extraversion = lots of friends / hanging out in groups etc., which is not the case

well, some of us are legitimate loners... probably a lot of us. i personally seem to change my stack depending on interpretations (mine) rather frequently.

i'll keep the things in the rest of your quote i particularly relate to--or perhaps, don't relate to, in some cases.

~ acceptance, interested in who others really are [acknowledgement of others]
~ awareness of the other -- compared with sx awareness of the energy between two people, soc brings awareness of the other as themselves, as a person in their own right -- and of how one's self and the other are affecting each other

i'm not interested in most people, but when i am interested in someone i go digging until i find their core/soul. i generally see others as individual, independent beings in their own right. i think that it's important to never forget that, because losing sight of it has resulted in some of the most terrible atrocities humans have committed against one another. i've always (as long as i remember) had an awareness of this. oppression of another on the grounds of a supposed "group" they are reduced to has long been something that bothers me, and something i fear. i don't like reducing individuals to characteristics of any "group" because that denies them their humanity. still, i live most of my life with myself and ignore most people, unable to take any interest in them. when i am interested, my interest becomes pretty intense and obsessive. i want to see *everything* inside them.

~ soc brings a certain humility because of the sense of interdependence. less overestimating the relative importance of one individual self

this oddly seems to contradict the previous thing... but i don't really feel interdependent. in fact, i view being interdependent as something dangerous. i don't really believe anyone will bail me out. i kind of know i'm on my own and that no one will save me, despite my fantasies when i was in my twenties. i think the world is largely cruel. i also resent people who have a sense of interdependence. i see them as threats trying to sap what little strength i have from me. i hate them for wanting to take and for giving nothing. if i could, i would run far away from these sorts of people with their goddamn sense of "community." this isn't to say, i don't have any inclinations towards "community." i'm just rather touchy about this. usually the people that go on and on about "helping each other out" just want others to burn away their light in service. i despise people like that. not only do i see them as weak (both in character and in nature) but i see them as unethical.

~ cited a study in which the biggest factor for longevity was friendship

i really like long-term friendships. but i'm not good at maintaining them, even though i remember everyone. if i'm with someone romantically (or otherwise devoted) i never want to end the friendship part of it. even if we stop keeping up, they remain in my mind and i will think of them, as though they are there.

~ bonds between species (e.g. humans and pets) are examples of soc instinct

i'm incredibly interested in other species and finding the "person" inside of an individual i meet of another species. it's the most fascinating sort of "digging" for me. i long to connect with that which is "alien" and so i will search a lot. i'm fascinated by just about every animal i meet. i don't really grow bored of this. i want to read their minds and their hearts (their "souls"). i want to understand. i want to answer questions about what unites and separates "us." it's a deep well with no bottom.

~ one way of looking at all the major spiritual teachings are as an expansion of the soc instinct; ultimately, including all life within the soc instinct's movement toward win-win

i'm really fond of win-wins and naturally look for that kind of solution. i can compromise rather well, although this is largely because i don't really know what i want most of the time. it's so difficult for me to make a decision sometimes that a compromise actually allows for an actual decision and course of action. so it's actually pretty selfish in a way. but i also know that there are so many ways to solve every problem, and i'm good at thinking of all the ways (which contributes to my difficulty making decisions), and so there are ways to solve a problem that benefit all parties more often than not. and that's rather ideal, and makes everything else easier (the consequences).

SOC areas:

~ reading people and adapting behavior

i am fairly adept (i think) at reading people if i actually try to. usually i'm so self-absorbed i don't notice others. but if i pay attention, i'm a good reader. i also do readily adapt my behavior without really trying or thinking about it. (not knowing what i even want makes it fairly easy. however, i also do it when i know that it's not what i want in work situations because i feel i have no power and no choice. and that hurts a lot--having to adapt against my own nature.)

➙ sp wants other stuff to adapt to the self; soc is willing to adapt self in light of others' needs
as an example, suppose you feel the room is too hot and you see a thermostat on the wall. sp just turns down the thermostat, but soc gauges others' temperature - if everyone else in the room is dressed lightly, soc does not turn down the thermostat.

hmm. i actually don't really want either of these. i *hate* having to adapt my own nature and hurt myself for other's needs. i do it at work because i don't want to fall to living on the streets, which i wouldn't be able to survive. i don't value their needs generally and think most of them are pathetic wasteful self-entitled little shits. being higher up on a hierarchy does not earn my respect. i expect a real leader and think social hierarchies are stupid and often wrong. however, if i actually care about someone, it isn't difficult to sacrifice my small needs. i don't need a lot. i'm not high maintenance.

~ contribution and participation.
➙we're wired to contribute. regardless of stack, self-esteem suffers when we feel we have nothing to contribute or what we contribute isn't wanted or doesn't matter.
➙ valuing each others' contributions falls in the soc area as well.

i hate participation and have always been rather contrary. nothing annoys me more than conformity.

When soc is the blind spot:
~ opportunities to be with others are seen in terms of "what will it cost me". Can be a feeling of not caring, of being excessively selfish.
~ talking to self, may be really talking to self even when ostensibly talking to others, interrupting
~ always a feeling of not having made one's contribution even when one actually is contributing[/I]

bah. now i'm back to wanting so last in my stacking.

eta: wow, this is all quite hateful and ugly.

[Myst]

well, some of us are legitimate loners... probably a lot of us. i personally seem to change my stack depending on interpretations (mine) rather frequently.

Like which sort of interpretations are so different ?

To me each of the instincts is a certain attitude and awareness, being rather clearly different from each other.

This is all internal so I do find it hard to type other people's stackings unless I do have a *lot* of experience about them that I can go by. Or deep interview, that - *if* it can be actually established, which is where the caveat is as well - always works

[Aylen]

Sometimes I feel I was more like an sx/so when I was younger but then again I never had a good grasp on social dynamics or how to bring about any kind of social change or awareness. I rebelled against restrictions on my personal freedom more than anything and that was the source of most of my conflicts with authority.
To this day I have very little awareness of politics or even what the current issues are. I know nothing about what is going on with celebrities, or who is getting with who. or who broke up. It is not that I don't like hearing about some of this stuff now and then but I do not seek it out on my own. People with so first or so second are really helpful with this stuff. They can also keep me current on fashion which I do like, especially shoes. Music is something I do keep pretty current with but I love a lot of older stuff like from the 90s.

Even when part of a group I feel like it is "the group" and I am on the periphery of it. I will make a couple good friends but never feel really a part of the group as a whole but I am actually fine with that. I like to see myself as an observer and it gives me a broader perspective. It was in my very early 20s, when I lived in NYC, where I met friends who were very socially aware and cultured. They told me how to make changes in how I spoke and acted around others so I didn't come off as uneducated and trashy. It hurt at the time but I also took it to heart. They knew I was intelligent but said I didn't present myself that way. That really shocked me into paying attention to how I was presenting myself but I have been very self-conscious since then. Always questioning how I am coming off to others.

I often think that anything I post will be misunderstood and I find myself deleting a lot of things. I have been here for awhile now but I still feel like a lot of you are "the group" and I am just some outsider who posts random things that have meaning to me but others think they are irrelevant or innapropriate. I will sometimes feel very connected to someone's posts and want to say, "me too!" but with some people I stop myself before responding and will just "like" their post instead. It is easier since responding can lead to discussions and I am not always sure if I want to have a full discussion in public.

It doesn't matter how many friend invites I get on FB because I always feel people there just add me by reputation and know nothing about me. I can tell when I offend someone because it is usually right after a post I make where I express myself without restriction that they remove me.

The friend's list here is a bit different than there though. I don't add a lot of people but when I do it is because I enjoy reading their posts. It just so happens that when someone here adds me, it is also someone who's posts I enjoy reading, so it works out. In that way it is different than FB.

[squark]

I will sometimes feel very connected to someone's posts and want to say, "me too!" but with some people I stop myself before responding and will just "like" their post instead. It is easier since responding can lead to discussions and I am not always sure if I want to have a full discussion in public.

Me too, heh. I actually find a lot of your enneagram posts relate-able in that way.

[Myst]

@Aylen I relate to so much of your post there. Tho' I doubt you were ever sx/so

[Aylen]

@Aylen I relate to so much of your post there. Tho' I doubt you were ever sx/so

I don't think I am sx/so either. I had an insight while mixing up my nootropics today. I think my Fe can come off as social but that wasn't the insight. In enneagram I can identify with 459 more than any other tritype and in that order.

The 4 is my core type and sexual is my first instinct. I have asked people, who know me irl, and all of them agree with this. I have read some sx/so stuff that fit too but it felt lacking.

I feel my self-pres is in my 5 and my social is in my 9. They all work together and when I am overwhelmed in areas that sx 4 tend to focus on, I can shift right into 5 and focus only on my own solitary and "intellectual" pursuits and being left alone. I can become like a sp/sx 5 for a period of time. It is a coping mechanism.

When I am coming out of, I'll call it 5 sp mode, I go into so/sx/so 9 for a VERY brief period before returning to my usual 4 sx/sp way of expression. It is a cycle I have noticed but never put a label on before. This feels right for now but I may change my mind if there are further developments.

Instincts – Self Preservation, Social, Sexual.These three instincts are built into our bestial nature, which resides at an unconscious level helping to ensure our survival, both of ourselves and our species. From the perspective of the enneagram, we want to know how these drives appear and function, both within personality and as distinct patterns, as defined by each instinct alone or the alignment of two or three (stacking).

Sexuals attract others without really trying. They also repel others in the same way, like an anti-pheromone. This works like a screening function in the mating process. People typically have a strong reaction one way or another towards Sx’s, and vice versa.

Self Pres people instinctively avoid certain foods and environments, and are likewise drawn to those things that nourish and sustain them. Sp’s have a strong reaction against things that threaten to harm their comfort or health.


Social is driven towards gaining protection and empowerment within larger entities.
Soc’s typically react strongly against things which would jeopardize or displace their position or reputation.
The instinct is always trying to work for our survival, whether we know it or not. Personality can only get in the way. Animals, as more or less fully instinctual beings, don’t have this problem. But integrating our personality with instinct requires that each side of ourselves is fully aware of the other side. Otherwise we are automated, automatic, and on autopilot.

 

Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.

 

Self-pres/Sexual

This subtype, like the self-pres/social, is more typical of the depictions of type Five. The self-preservational instinct accentuates the self-contained, withdrawing tendencies of the Five. Fives of this subtype love their time alone with a passion, and pursue it more actively even than the other subtype of self-pres Five, although with the sexual instinct second, they often want to find time for intimates as well. On the down side, they have more disdain for people and little use for the social aspects of life. They want to be left alone or they want to share their inner world with their intimates. The intensity of the sexual instinct is reserved for their intimates and even there it is sporadic. The self-pres energy gives this subtype a solid foundation and some degree of practicality.

These Fives are conflicted when it comes to experiencing and expressing emotions. They usually default to emotional repression and to detached intellectual analysis. This is a dynamic common to all Fives, but with the self-pres/sexual instinctual stacking, the balance of these forces is pretty precarious and it seems as though the scales are being constantly adjusted one way or another. As the social instinct is the least developed, the social arena gets the drier more intellectual approach almost by default.

 

Social/Sexual

This subtype is “everyone’s friend.” The social/sexual energy combines with the Nine’s merging tendency and conflict avoidance to create a subtype that is very charming and uses humor quite extensively to engage with the people in their lives. On the down side, they can be frustrating because they can easily lose focus when it comes to their life priorities. With the self-pres instinct last in the stacking, they have a hard time tending to their own needs. They drift, and tend to use their charm to get a lot of their self-pres needs met by the people in their lives. When the Eight wing is dominant, they sometimes even develop a sense of entitlement, though they are just as likely to return help to those they charm into helping them.

In relationships, this subtype can suffer from some of the same problems as the other social subtype. They usually fall into a relationship in which the partner pushes them to “do more” with their lives. This can be positive for both parties, but often ends up causing resentment to build for both partners.

https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.com/

Thanks, I think your post sparked the insight.