Example of a female SEE and her romantic behaviour.
She even calls herself a predator and her crush a victim.
She didn't have any shame or doubt concerning her interest, she was simply excited about making the first move. It is expected of the man to make the first move, so when a woman does it it is out of the norm. Also, making the first move can be exciting in general, no matter what kind of person or type you are. The fact that she was determined to make the first move and ask him out, despite him not giving her any clear signs, speaks for her being a female Aggressor.
What makes her seem like an introvert? She's very expressive and energetic, probably SEE-Fi.
I suppose the Fi subtype makes her appear a bit introverted at times?
That is the EP-IP temperament synergy, IPs have a quite, sedate energy to them that's flexible. The second part to this is their "introversion" behavioural introversion that has got a detached aura to it
The romance styles aren't deterministically connected to type however assertive types do look for the devotees as complements.
The pseudo-aggressor theory is actually broken and not really true but rather is just a contrived means to try to force ideas on to the theory. Observe enough people and even talk to some on this forum it'' become apparent that there is no determinstic connection between the romance styles and types. "Aggressors"(Assertors) can be intuitves too and ESE & SEE can also be infantiles.
Last edited by Soupman; 03-17-2017 at 03:15 PM.
SEE women are assertive with high energy, the introvert subtypes distorts the signal as Gulenko says but the overall behavioural outlook, the core type mission remains intact. That's assertive and dominative behaviour, F remains in play though distorted.
Being expressive is more of a sign of emotionality rather than I or E, ethical types display emotionality (logical types only do it under Superego & Superid circumstances). Secondly observationally the sensing vs intuitive divide is best understood as the extrovert vs introvert behavioural display. (EIE, LIE, ILE, IEE are all introverts behaviourally detached and succumbed in mental ideas)
As pure guess I'm inclined to think Jennifer Lawrence is in the ranges of SEI or ESI and on the lower probability SEE.
Sociability Ranking-1.jpg
I find this graph useful for quickly determining the sensing/intuitive, logic/ethics, extroversion vs introversion
The secondary Romance style of Childlike is Aggressor and vice versa, and the secondary Romance Style of Victim is Caretaker and vice versa; this is based on the shared dynamic or static dichotomy.
So yes,
IEE-Fi and ILE-Ti will have moments of being "Aggressor-like", but in a playful way. (Not so much EII and LII, because of their PoLR.)
SEE-Fi and SLE-Ti will have moments of being "Childlike" and playful, but in an aggressive way. (Not so much ESI and LSI, because of their PoLR.)
IEI-Fe and ILI-Te will have moments of being "Caretaker-like", but in a self-conscious or passive way. (Not so much LIE and EIE, because of their PoLR.)
SEI-Fe and SLI-Te will have moments of being "Victim-like", but in caring/nurturing or guiding way. (Not so much ESE and LSE, because of their PoLR.)
Considering all this, it is indeed difficult to explain how Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressor", or Delta NFs "Pseudo-Caretaker".
I have observed those behaviours in individuals of those types, so I find it to be true. I am wondering whether the key here is – valuing the most efficient or appropriate method.
In that light, Gamma NTs see too much Victim behaviour and Delta NFs see too much Childlike behaviour as being inefficient, so they unconsciously try to be like the other style sporadically.
But this is just a theory, I am really not sure why they have adopted a "Pseudo"-ness.
Yes, all ethical types display emotionality, however those with strong (4D) tend to display it the most and/or the most strongly, and I find this applies to Jennifer.
She seems to display Demonstrative over Ignoring. You could argue she's got Creative Fe and is an SEI, however she seems to value , so that's out.
When it comes to the expression of emotionality, I find to be the key; both its placement and its strength matters.
From most to least outwardly expressive* (ime): ExFj > ExFp > IxFp > ExTp > ExTj > IxFj > IxTj > IxTp.
* That means through facial expressions like laughing, smiling; variation of voice intonation.
The louder, brighter, more varied and intense any of those elements, the more "outwardly expressive" the person.
The more monotone the voice and sporadic or weak the facial expressions, the less "outwardly expressive" the person.
This might be a very simple thought, but I actually believe it might be related to being either a rational/realistic person (the Gamma NTs) or a feeler (like the Delta NFs). Like Se and Ti will appear much more aggressive than Se and Fi, because they do not focus on feelings or emotional bonds between people in the way they go about things. Being a "thinker" does make someone appear colder in my opinion (at least at first glance). I as a feeler and victim might appear much more like a softie as I act based on my feelings and thus might appear much more flighty than a Gamma victim who bases their decisions on facts or rational thoughts (?).
By the way.. even though I sometimes doubt the subtype theory, because I see quite a few qualities of the Fe-subtype within myself too, I thought that an INFp-Ni might actually look or behave more like a Pseudo-Aggressor, because they are closer to a Gamma Victim as Fe is surpressed more. Just as the Fe subtype might appear more motherly, since they are closer to Alpha Caregivers. Would SLEs-Se then look more like a Gamma Aggressor? Just some thoughts I had.
And funnily I also thought Jennifer might be an SEE! Some of her facial expressions looked like the ones from SEEs I know. I kind of noticed that women might be typed the introverted subytpe more often, because in society we have to behave more calmly. Not sure though.
Your first point is interesting... boiling it down to the Logical vs Ethical dichotomy.
I could see that working for the Gamma NTs, but not so much for the Delta NFs. If Caretaker behaviour was inherently "soft" or more "ethical"-like, then why aren't Caretakers Pseudo-Childlike? Or are they... I've actually started calling female Gamma SFs (mostly the ESIs) "Pseudo Victim"... Generally I have found that the "Pseudo Aggressor" applies the best to LIE, not really to ILI; and "Pseudo Caretaker" applies the best to EII, not really to IEE. This has something to do with HA vs Dual Seeking, probably; the HA is more "active" and stronger than the Dual-seeking... It seems like to me the Pseudo-ness has something to do with the HA and applies to those types that value Te-Fi; at least that has been my experience. So... LIE is Pseudo-Aggressor, ESI is Pseudo-Victim, EII is Pseudo-Caretaker, LSE is Pseudo-Childlike... Needless to say, the Pseudo-stuff is a bit complex.
Your idea concerning the subtypes isn't bad, however the more boosted the Ni, the more Victim the person will be. This is the general principle. So even though an IEI-Ni has "weakened" Fe in comparison to IEI-Fe, they are the most Victim in the entire Socion. ILI-Ni would be the second most Victim. As I said, having boosted Ni makes you automatically more Victim. By that logic, an IEI-Ni couldn't be closer to Pseudo-Aggressor in their romantic/sexual behaviour, even though they may seem like a fake INTx when it comes to certain other (non-romantic) situations or their "vibe". Again, it is not the Rational IEs that determine Romance style; hence "weakened" Fe doesn't result in being like a Gamma. SLE-Se are the most Aggressor; yes, they can appear to be like SEEs when it comes to their overall "vibe", because of the "boosted" Fe; but their strong Se will prevent them from acting like a "Pseudo-victim" or anything of that sort.
I've found that most extroverts are the introverted Contact subtype, actually. I am not sure why. Is it really so simplistic and boils down to most extroverts wanting literally to engage in more "contact" with the outside world and other people...? It is much more difficult to find an extrovert with the extroverted (Inert) subtype, than an introvert with it. Most Inert (first function) subtype individuals are introverted, in my experience. And this has applied to all genders, sexual orientations, etc. One interesting thing is that most if not all introverts I've typed who are celebrities (aka in the entertainment industry etc.) are extroverted Contact subtype. But that makes sense; it would be difficult to come very far as a full-blown introvert in such an environment.
I don't buy that Gamma NTs are "pseudo-aggressors"... but how they act is explained well in Stratiyevskaya's Quadra Complexes:
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...onal_relations.
It seems like what they do is muddle themselves and their partners in an intricate web of Ni chaos and confusion. Sometimes Beta NFs do the same thing, but they're more confident in ethical matters. And they keep digging and digging themselves into holes until no one can possibly make any decisions, especially their partners.
But often people get tired of them and eventually kick them out:
Well! It seems like no one is happy in the Gamma quadra.In ethical situations, they, as a rule, do not succeed in this.
A classic example of this inability to orient and navigate a complicated ethical situation is provided by the famous literary character Eugene Onegin (ILI, Balzac) – the hero of the eponymous novel in verses of Alexander Sergeevich Pushkin.
Not wishing to be bound by vows and striving under any conditions to be on top of the situation, Onegin by all means and methods tries to distance himself from Tatiana and performs a variety of actions (seemingly chaotic and controversial), that for him have irreversible and fatal consequences, as a result of which he makes Tatiana become a victim of circumstances, and himself falls victim of his own arbitrariness, that makes the so desired by him future closeness and reunification with Tatiana - impossible.
Getting carried away honing of his own "defensive capabilities" in the framework of the protection of personal freedoms and interests, ILI Balzac (introverted "negativist" "tactical" TIM) often becomes a prisoner of his own defenses. From time to time he sets up tests to check the strength of his "armor", allowing one of the potential partners to get close to him and then inviting them to destroy it as an obstacle. As a prize, he appears to them as a sort of "fairy-tale prince, imprisoned in The Black Tower" – kind, sympathetic, but very lonely man, endowed with many good qualities and advantages.
Following this, the ILI becomes a prisoner of his own loneliness, when after several long and fruitless attempts to "save" him many of his partners abandon all further efforts, considering this to be a hopeless waste of time. They leave him to himself, break off relations with him, and let him to continue to languish in the shell of his loneliness.
.
Last edited by dot; 01-23-2018 at 08:53 PM.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
You probably clam up because it feels "too good to be true" as it were. That's the drawback of having in the ego block, and why we like the aggressors. We throw up a roadblock, and they plow through it just like we hoped they would. One of the researchers in this field said that a good example of victim behavior is that the victim, upon checking into a hotel, insists their partner sleeps in a separate room and pays for it. However, they'll slip the key to their room into the "aggressor's" suite. The hope being, of course, that they get the hint, intrude into the room of the victim, and get cuddly and lovey with them despite any further protests.
I can tell you that if I did pull that stunt and the girl actually did that I'd spend the next week thinking about how I'd propose marriage to her. Sometimes ya just gotta stop worrying and go all in y'know. If the SO passes a Shit Test of that magnitude ya gotta start thinking about rings on fingers, just sayin'...
I always HATED Pepe Le Pew! Chasing after someone who wants to be chased is one thing. THAT is another.
I always found Pepe Le Pew quite amusing. Overtly in love just because of ... and hounding it out as long as possible. Seems quite SEE.
@Suz when I wasn't part of this forum yet, I read your story about you meeting your dual (SLE) in a work environment. The things you talked about, especially the SLE piercing eyes, which stare you down (it's weird but their cold and beautiful eyes, I can feel them going right through me.. even when I am in dreamy mode lol). I really related to that too. I saw you switching between Beta and Delta, but actually.. the story back then helped me to understand SLE behaviour even better, it lined up with some of my experiences as well. You might really be an IEI after all. ;D
@MaviTilki: The feelings of blank headedness and sudden awkwardness around Attractive People(tm) are just a human thing. The rest can be your disturbed* Ni-dom shit though.
*I do kid.
Reason is a whore.
Yeah maybe. I've since typed alpha SF for about 2.5 years now, leaning SEI currently, but that thought has definitely crossed my mind.
when i came to the forum I self-typed IEI because i "converted" my fairly reliable MBTI typing of INFJ to socionics INFp per socionics.com suggestion, but at the time i didn't resonate much with some of the other betas i was interacting with and some were downright nasty & abusive (although i did bond quite a bit with another IEI - redbaron). However, since then i've come to realize that people can mistype themselves and others, and other psychiatric conditions including various personality disorders may have made the toxic individuals come across the way they did as well. I've also since found resonance with other people who self-type beta over the years - golden, aylen, to name a couple people who come immediately to mind (Pink, if she's actually beta). I've also come to realize that the way i perceive certain concepts may not be the way the perception was intended... so i've given up on definitively typing myself (and others).
I do remember that "stare of passion" that guy had given me, like it was yesterday. thanks for reminding it about it - it is a nice memory. I got scared and shy when that happened, but if he had persisted, he would have found out I really did like him a lot and we could have been together. He didn't though -- maybe he had his reasons -- we were much too different (he was an ex frat boy, heavy drinker), and i was going to be movng away in a couple months. It's been almost 8 years since then, and a lot has happened - he's gotten in trouble with the law because of his alcohol abuse, and he's not the kind of guy I'd want to be around anymore, so maybe it's for the better. That said, if we ended up together, maybe he would be healthier. Or maybe I would be miserable. Who knows.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
That last part sounds very familiar to me. Most SLEs in real life are heavy partiers.. at least the ones I met. There might be exceptions obviously. They also have that bad boy image. But I also believe they long for someone 'purer' and different ..more innocent than them. They actually prefer cute girls. It's really interesting when you read about them talking about what they like in girls etc. They might seem like the guys who prefer *insert heavy stereotype* blonde, promiscous party girls.. but actually they do not when it comes to real stuff. They actually have a thing for weirdos lol.
I can't say for sure that Johnny is an SEE given the fact that the clips shown basically displays a caricature of "aggressor" behavior @Olimpia but I must admit that it's funny because it's true. That confidence, that bravado, that certainty that the target of their affection wants them at least as badly as they want them...
Yep, kinda what makes the aggressor the aggressor. They know what they want and they are not afraid to go for it. Sadly, both traditional culture and our poisoned modern culture sabotage those sentiments as evil or degenerate. The former excoriated the women who were like that, the later now excoriates the men. Either way, the victims and aggressors are condemned unto the outer darkness. A very sad state of affairs especially given how "victim" types like myself will "mimic" aggressor behavior in the hopes our prospective mates call our bluff. Damn this bullcrap culture war!
I, too, have never known a promiscuous IEI, and I know more than ten of them IRL, males and females. They live in an Ni world of their imagination, and if the stars don't align with the tides and their mood that day and their long range goals and the migration of the butterflies and the dust motes in the moonlight and the crystal music of the fairies, you aren't getting in. Unless you happen to be SLE, and even then, the odds are very low.
@Sol, that is the most wrong statement I've ever seen from you.
In today culture many people are promiscuous as they establish short romantic relations. IEI are not exception.
People don't study a possible partner for monthes to decide is he/she acceptable for marriage or other long relations, is there a strong and deep feeling of love, - they just pull him/her to a bed on 1-2 date, and change to other partner after weeks or monthes.
The difference between types is in the quantity of sexual partners people have during the life or befor the marriage. It's a tendency, concrete human may to have variation or simply other type.
There was a thread where people said with how many ones they had sex, also take into account their ages and that real types may differ.
Look at girls at erotic sites. There are more of some types and IEI are not rare. Irrationality rises disrespect to social norms, to rules, makes impulsive. While valued Fe often makes people to care lesser about morality and what other people like. Hence, IEI are among the most promiscuous types. You may often find them in provoking open clothes. There are more of them among whores than any of J type.
I said similar befor on this forum. My opinion is not "news".
Last edited by Sol; 09-14-2017 at 02:11 PM.
This is just as 'aggressor' style as it gets. Beside SEE I could see SLE. Se-domness all over him.
EIEs are victims and victims don't usually behave that way romantically, like thaaaat self-confident about the other's interest in them (at least most of the time, lol).
Last edited by dot; 09-14-2017 at 08:55 PM.
I've been flirting for the past few weeks with an attractive SEE who works at a place where I sometimes eat lunch, because......uh.......she's kind of hot and.....uh...... @FDG says about SEE's "They are quite impulsive in their actions and reactions", so what the hell, right?
And because I know Socionics and the fact that most SEE's are e7 (like to travel) and I'm also slightly evil, I'm not above using every advantage I might have.
She teaches Art for a second job and was telling me today about what colors mean to the observer. I told her that I had a former GF whose favorite color is gray, which I thought was unusual. Most people would choose red or blue or green or some brighter color, but she chose gray. When I asked my former GF why gray, she said "Because it is a color that goes everywhere".
The SEE stared at me for a minute, then turned away and bent over the far counter. To reach something, I suppose.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 11-09-2018 at 07:12 PM.
I'm still flirting with the SEE, but she has been absent from the restaurant for the past few weeks. Last Friday, she was back, with blood in her eyes and bruises above her cheek bones.
I asked her if her BF had beaten her up. She just gave me a long look and laughed and said no. She'd had an operation on her septum and showed me the stitches between her nostrils where the surgeons had opened her up to get in there. She looked like a car accident victim, while still being quite pretty.
She said her facial condition made her realize how some people are bad parents. She said that a little girl had, when her back was turned, said "Mommy, look at that woman's beautiful hair!", but when she turned around, the little girl got scared and said "Mommy, what's wrong with her face?"
But instead of explaining to the girl or asking the SEE, the mother said "Hush" and hurried her off.
I said to the SEE, "That mother has probably seen lots of women who go to work after being beaten up by their BF's."
"Yeah, right. But that doesn't excuse the mother's behavior. The little girl just had a question, and she should have answered it."
I said, "You could wear a bag over your head. That might help.", which got a breezy reaction from the SEE and a shocked reaction from the woman who had just stepped up to place an order and who hadn't heard the whole convo.
"Or shades. You could experiment with shades. That could be pretty cool."
"The problem," the SEE continued, "is that mothers shouldn't keep their children in the dark and act like some things are off limits."
I changed the topic of conversation away from people's moral failings by asking her if she's a Libra.
"Yes", she said, leaning forward over the counter, flipping her long hair back and boring into me with her eyes. "We're people-pleasers. Why do you ask?"
"Oh, I was just trying to remember what you said. I looked up the compatibility of Aries and Libra. I can't remember what it said...."
"Complete opposites", she said, and smiled and went to get my order.
I took away several things from this convo. First is how easy it is to get into stride with an Activity partner. It's a shame that this woman isn't an ESI. Second is that this SEE seems to be maneuvering me into complimenting her good looks which, now that I know this, I can use to tease her and also tell her the truth, which is that she's the most attractive woman in the place. I didn't realize that SEE's might be a bit insecure in their feelings. From this forum, I never got that impression, although I've never made a study of it.
Fourth is the close identification of SEE's with enneagram type 2 and type 7. Type 2 is the Helper, who could be construed to please people, and type 7 is an Epicure, concerned about taste and appearance. I find it strange that Libras are also considered to be people-pleasers. https://labyrinthos.co/blogs/astrolo...ths-weaknesses
How much of this is selection bias, and how much is cause-and-effect?
Last edited by Adam Strange; 02-25-2019 at 02:01 PM.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
@vesstheastralsilky, I've been meaning to make a gallery of faces for my own edification, but I can't imagine where I would post them on-line.
Anyway, the shift from ESI to SEE is a gradual one, going from
ESI-Fi: https://i.imgur.com/1BFkIaY.jpg
to
ESI-Se: https://i.imgur.com/Epk3jvX.jpg
to
SEE-Fi: https://i.imgur.com/Rb0Ai7N.jpg
to
See-Se: https://i.imgur.com/whSdbVl.png
All of these women have different enneatypes, but you can see the Se and the extroversion ramp up.