ESFP-SEE's Romantic/Erotic Behaviour

[Olimpia]

This thread is just about examples (and anecdotes) of the romantic/erotic behaviour of SEE!


I'll start with this:

Sensory-ethical extravert, not only does not hide his feelings, but on the contrary, they are proud. Relatively easy, if it is in his inner mood, expresses his admiration. And words and glances. He was always full of love for the physical and psychic identification(...). Even when feeling momentarily. Knows very well what he wants from the love object, is not inclined to adapt, but to dictate.

[JWC3]

I realized that I've broken up with more people than I've been in relationships with.

[Olimpia]

I realized that I've broken up with more people than I've been in relationships with.

How is that possible? Don't you have to be in a relationship with someone to break up with them...? o.O

[JWC3]

How is that possible? Don't you have to be in a relationship with someone to break up with them...? o.O

Typically my conversations with the grocery store check-out clerk end with her telling me to have a nice day and me responding "Look, we need to talk. . ."

However, to answer your question seriously. I don't tend to leave things open ended. So without being in a relationship I may decide to spend copious amounts of time with someone only to later realize that this is not something I want to continue doing and so I explicitly communicate such to the other party. I've also broken up with two people at once, one of which I wasn't dating. A friend and I were seeing two girls who were also close friends. After deciding that we didn't want to do that anymore, he told me to do the talking since he wouldn't be able to follow through otherwise. So technically I did end an actual relationship that I wasn't in, as well as one I was, simultaneously.

[lynn]

i'm interested in this ... usually i'm not that drawn to SEEs and most of the ones i know are female , but when i do, i feel like i have nothing to offer- i honestly do wonder if they are really interested in Ni-doms? (especially IEIs with zero Te, all i can offer is nodding and smiling at people, especially if i don't know them well.) somehow i can't wrap my head around this. one female SEE who approached me for friendship told me she wishes she had a boyfriend like me. and i thought, wtf, why? i always thought that SEEs tolerate IEIs because they are non-threatening and tag along, that's it. but every SEE i know has at least one IEI in their circle of friends, my SEE aunt's most important romantic relationships have been an IEI and now an ILI (but ILIs have Te!). and i've seen enough SEEs dating EIEs and ILIs to know, yes, they are drawn to Ni, but it's still strange for me. i met a really good looking, interesting SEE guy, and i was interested in him (but in a so/sx, let's see where it leads me way, i want to collect you as an addition to my social circle, and hopefully more? ... it's about social chemistry, i guess. he's sx/so, btw) and thought, okay, out of my league. so, what's their flirting/romantic behaviour, or how they act when they are interested in you (not necessarily romantic)? the SEE sx/so guy was always very enthusiastic, friendly towards me the few times we talked, him initiating the conversations. i thought that he's like that with everyone. i tried to be extra charming, lol. when i met him a few months later, i thought, it takes too much effort to keep this up, and maybe he doesn't remember me. so, i was more back to my default withdrawn mode i display with strangers. he modified his behaviour based on my reactions, and was very quiet towards me, until i showed simple signs of interest, and then he would slowly approach me again based on my reactions. i thought aggressor's talk to you/pursue you/chase you, if they are interested and if not, they just don't. but what's up with this looking at you as if they are a cat watching a mouse until it makes a move. and if you don't do anything, they look confused and unsure. usually it's me doing that, waiting for someone to make the first move and then adapting to them and deciding whether i should make the second or not. lol. waaay worse was an SLE around, who is the most attractive guy i've seen in my entire life, who just stared at me never saying anything. the first time i talked to him he got very nervous and tense... i'm not that attractive, either. wtf. ^^ what's up with aggressors not acting like aggressors. weird.

[Olimpia]

i'm interested in this ... usually i'm not that drawn to SEEs and most of the ones i know are female , but when i do, i feel like i have nothing to offer- i honestly do wonder if they are really interested in Ni-doms? (especially IEIs with zero Te, all i can offer is nodding and smiling at people, especially if i don't know them well.) somehow i can't wrap my head around this. one female SEE who approached me for friendship told me she wishes she had a boyfriend like me. and i thought, wtf, why? i always thought that SEEs tolerate IEIs because they are non-threatening and tag along, that's it. but every SEE i know has at least one IEI in their circle of friends, my SEE aunt's most important romantic relationships have been an IEI and now an ILI (but ILIs have Te!). and i've seen enough SEEs dating EIEs and ILIs to know, yes, they are drawn to Ni, but it's still strange for me.

Based on my experience and understanding of the type, SEE (or SLE) is genuinely drawn to this quiet energy doms possess. Maybe it is strange to describe it that way, but can be like a black hole to some degree, how their perceptions of the world get sucked in into the introspective mind of the person... is like the light and matter which is irrevocably attracted to the gravity of the black hole, and finds itself "falling" in/for it.

My SEE relatives, my SEE sister in particular, just enjoy being around me. They certainly like advice on matters, but it is not what they are primarily looking for. (They'd value more if they were a rather strong subtype.) For them to enjoy my company, I don't even have to say much. They'll usually do the talking, hug me, flatter me to warm me up to them and the sensorial world around me. I could see their complimenting being their natural way of charming and relieving their ILI dual.

Having said all that, I am sometimes surprised an SEE or SLE would be interested in such a person like I, one that can be rather timid when it comes romantic interaction. It simply must be the attraction of an Aggressor to a Victim type, I reckon.

the SEE sx/so guy was always very enthusiastic, friendly towards me the few times we talked, him initiating the conversations. i thought that he's like that with everyone. i tried to be extra charming, lol. when i met him a few months later, i thought, it takes too much effort to keep this up, and maybe he doesn't remember me. so, i was more back to my default withdrawn mode i display with strangers. he modified his behaviour based on my reactions, and was very quiet towards me, until i showed simple signs of interest, and then he would slowly approach me again based on my reactions. i thought aggressor's talk to you/pursue you/chase you, if they are interested and if not, they just don't. but what's up with this looking at you as if they are a cat watching a mouse until it makes a move. and if you don't do anything, they look confused and unsure. usually it's me doing that, waiting for someone to make the first move and then adapting to them and deciding whether i should make the second or not. lol.

Given the dual of SEE is acting like a Pseudo-Aggressor, I could see them waiting for such behaviour from a Victim type. Moments when the ego type acts unlike themselves – suddenly shows interest, just to draw back to a great extent again.

waaay worse was an SLE around, who is the most attractive guy i've seen in my entire life, who just stared at me never saying anything. the first time i talked to him he got very nervous and tense... i'm not that attractive, either. wtf. ^^ what's up with aggressors not acting like aggressors. weird.

This reminds me of my interaction with an LSI guy. For some reason, his appearance and bearing made me think he could be an SLE. Tall, imposing presence, etc. In classes, we would just sit across the room, and sometimes he'd give me a piercing look, for a second or so. We would just look at each other. He still has not approached me directly, haha. I've come to the realization he's an LSI, perhaps subtype. Even though he is an Aggressor, he's still not as upfront with that like an SLE would be. An LSI's dual is EIE, so they are expecting of a more colourful exuberant behaviour from a partner, one that may act sort of coquettish at times. When the LSI does not "get" this, they may not be entirely sure how to act. It's likely that guy you are talking of is also LSI-Se.

[nondescript]

i'm interested in this ... usually i'm not that drawn to SEEs and most of the ones i know are female , but when i do, i feel like i have nothing to offer- i honestly do wonder if they are really interested in Ni-doms? (especially IEIs with zero Te, all i can offer is nodding and smiling at people, especially if i don't know them well.) somehow i can't wrap my head around this. one female SEE who approached me for friendship told me she wishes she had a boyfriend like me. and i thought, wtf, why? i always thought that SEEs tolerate IEIs because they are non-threatening and tag along, that's it. but every SEE i know has at least one IEI in their circle of friends, my SEE aunt's most important romantic relationships have been an IEI and now an ILI (but ILIs have Te!). and i've seen enough SEEs dating EIEs and ILIs to know, yes, they are drawn to Ni, but it's still strange for me. i met a really good looking, interesting SEE guy, and i was interested in him (but in a so/sx, let's see where it leads me way, i want to collect you as an addition to my social circle, and hopefully more? ... it's about social chemistry, i guess. he's sx/so, btw) and thought, okay, out of my league. so, what's their flirting/romantic behaviour, or how they act when they are interested in you (not necessarily romantic)? the SEE sx/so guy was always very enthusiastic, friendly towards me the few times we talked, him initiating the conversations. i thought that he's like that with everyone. i tried to be extra charming, lol. when i met him a few months later, i thought, it takes too much effort to keep this up, and maybe he doesn't remember me. so, i was more back to my default withdrawn mode i display with strangers. he modified his behaviour based on my reactions, and was very quiet towards me, until i showed simple signs of interest, and then he would slowly approach me again based on my reactions. i thought aggressor's talk to you/pursue you/chase you, if they are interested and if not, they just don't. but what's up with this looking at you as if they are a cat watching a mouse until it makes a move. and if you don't do anything, they look confused and unsure. usually it's me doing that, waiting for someone to make the first move and then adapting to them and deciding whether i should make the second or not. lol. waaay worse was an SLE around, who is the most attractive guy i've seen in my entire life, who just stared at me never saying anything. the first time i talked to him he got very nervous and tense... i'm not that attractive, either. wtf. ^^ what's up with aggressors not acting like aggressors. weird.

I bolded the important part. There are few things:

-> Stop relying on words? They are supposed to conjure this notion how something should be, not how it is / will be. The most correct word for Se ego types would be "Predator" not "Aggressor". But "Predator" has bad connotations, no? Anyhow, we do act like predators. We stalk our chosen game by forcing emotions, reactions etc out. ESPECIALLY us SEE! Don't forget that you are talking to a type who is a part of a "Causal-determinitive" cognition. Which means "this happens because of that so it means this is a causal effect, so I should make a move if I want to". Se are WICKEDLY good with body language-especially at noticing other person's body language. It doesn't matter if you do it willingly or not-we will latch onto it. So they see "welcome!" sign in body language and that is when we will make our move(if we want to, ofc!).

-> SEE have bad Ne and particularly bad Ti. What this means is that we don't pay half an attention to things like "what could be if it could be, so it logically is"(WTF ). We particularly don't employ lateral thinking, so there is that. What we see, we take for the true meaning of it, even if it could be due to other reasons. We also have a bad tendency to forget the logic and where we started(just look at the way I write lol!).

-> But then again, I could still be an ESI and ESI in particular are notorious for "Tom and Jerry" behaviour. So there is that...

[Adam Strange]

The above comments are very interesting. An ESI I know has parents I met briefly, who are SEE-father and IEI mother. The SEE writes music commercially from home and performs in local bands - he looks younger than he is, and the IEI-mother is a professional counsellor. They are, of course, semi-duals,
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...lity-Relations
and seem to get along great with only one exception, which the SEE told me about. He said that he is alone all day long writing music, and when the IEI comes home from work, he wants to talk, but she just puts her hand in front of her and says Stop, because she has been talking to people all day long and wants to rest.

This, of course, is not unique to SEE and IEI, but it does illustrate that these two types can get along very, very well.

She is introverted with strong Fe and Ni. He is just a party animal. I partied pretty hard when I was in my twenties, but I think this guy could beat me hands down if we ever went out together. I don't know if that's exactly what an IEI needs. I tend to think IEI's are better off with SLE's, if they can find one who is mature and financially stable. In his studio, the SEE was super-accomplished but seemed kind of lost. I don't know if an ILI would let things go there.

[Olimpia]

He is just a party animal. I partied pretty hard when I was in my twenties, but I think this guy could beat me hands down if we ever went out together. I don't know if that's exactly what an IEI needs. I tend to think IEI's are better off with SLE's, if they can find one who is mature and financially stable.

There are a lot of SLE guys who party hard, especially when immature & unhealthy... Is that what you mean? That most SLE guys are just party animals when immature, but SEE will always be party animals?

[Adam Strange]

There are a lot of SLE guys who party hard, especially when immature & unhealthy... Is that what you mean? That most SLE guys are just party animals when immature, but SEE will always be party animals?

No, that's not what I meant. But before I say what I meant, please understand that my sample size is microscopic, and so it is probably not generalizable. I have identified exactly one SEE male irl, and perhaps four or five SLE males, although I've known a couple of the SLE's for years. Here is what I think the SLE's seem to have in common.

They don't plan ahead. They have tremendous faith (or ignorance) in their abilities to get by, moment by moment. This means that they don't always end up with decent, stable jobs, because their planning horizon is so short.
They are funny and fun to be around, at least for me. Quite a few of my friends do not like them for various reasons, but I do.
They accept the world as it is, and don't complain (too much) when bad things happen to them. I respect that.
They are much smarter than they at first seem. They just don't make a point of showing it.
They seem to have a lack of curiosity about the world's possibilities, and just take things as they come. This gives them a "heavy" feeling, and could be interpreted as a kind of brutality, or a lack of understanding of what other people feel.
A couple of them want to manipulate other people as if they were chess pieces, but do so in a crude way. (One SLE I know has a Phd in Physics, an MBA in business, makes over $100k and still likes to force secretaries to work late to exert his power, and openly laughs about it. This means his tenure at his jobs has been fairly short, but his resume looks so good that it hasn't hurt him in getting new ones yet.)
As for heavy partying, the SLE's I know don't generally seem to go for extremes. If they party hard, it is not because they are driven to be the life of the party, but rather because they want to mentally escape their rotten jobs.
I think the ones that would or do have kids if they could get or stay married would make fairly good fathers.

The SEE, though, is a good, reasonably stable father, has a good, self-directed artistic job, is clearly intelligent and self-aware, is extremely good looking and looks like he could drink me under the table while collecting all the babes in the room while dancing without breaking a sweat. That's my impression, at least, and I've done my share of partying. He would do all that naturally, because he is just all over other people, but without the insensitive pushiness of the SLE's. On the other hand, he doesn't give me the impression of a guy who cares too much about hard thinking, but that opinion is coming from a Te-dom.

This particular SEE has a good job and is handsome, talented, and an aggressor, and the job part was enough (with the other stuff in common with an SLE) for the IEI to accept semi-dual relations, instead of seeking dual relations with an SLE who probably would not have had as good a job.

What I meant was, the drinking and partying part is not the most relevant part for an IEI. Instead, the SLE's have a high tolerance for emotional highs and lows, which IEI's seem to crave. I don't think the SEE wants or needs that, since his dual, the ILI, is about as steady as they get. So SLE's would be more what an IEI is looking for. Unfortunately, the SLE's tend not to have good jobs, and IEI's crave financial security.

[lynn]

Based on my experience and understanding of the type, SEE (or SLE) is genuinely drawn to this quiet energy doms possess. Maybe it is strange to describe it that way, but can be like a black hole to some degree, how their perceptions of the world get sucked in into the introspective mind of the person... is like the light and matter which is irrevocably attracted to the gravity of the black hole, and finds itself "falling" in/for it.

ah, if it's like a black hole, then it makes (more) sense to me. some Ti-doms really have a way to calm me down emotionally, while some Se-doms make me feel more energetic just by their presence or intonation of the voice. so, if they in turn feel more relaxed in presence of a Ni type, then i understand.

My SEE relatives, my SEE sister in particular, just enjoy being around me. They certainly like advice on matters, but it is not what they are primarily looking for. (They'd value more if they were a rather strong subtype.) For them to enjoy my company, I don't even have to say much. They'll usually do the talking, hug me, flatter me to warm me up to them and the sensorial world around me. I could see their complimenting being their natural way of charming and relieving their ILI dual.

yes, my SEE aunt is the same. she just likes me being around. but i'm so indecisive and lazy, it's weird for me to be appreciated just for that ... xD

This reminds me of my interaction with an LSI guy. For some reason, his appearance and bearing made me think he could be an SLE. Tall, imposing presence, etc. In classes, we would just sit across the room, and sometimes he'd give me a piercing look, for a second or so. We would just look at each other. He still has not approached me directly, haha. I've come to the realization he's an LSI, perhaps subtype. Even though he is an Aggressor, he's still not as upfront with that like an SLE would be. An LSI's dual is EIE, so they are expecting of a more colourful exuberant behaviour from a partner, one that may act sort of coquettish at times. When the LSI does not "get" this, they may not be entirely sure how to act. It's likely that guy you are talking of is also LSI-Se.

nope, a definite SLE in my case. the piercing look i experienced with both LSIs and SLEs. don't discount SLE just because he hasn't approached you yet. (except if you type him LSI for other reasons). if it's not primarily sex they're after SLEs can act so incredibly stupid in presence of their object of interest, i'm not surprised by anything anymore. -.- i experienced this way too often. i once encouraged an SLE to pursue an IEI he told me he was interested in, after he spent the whole evening talking to me instead of her, and then he gave me a long explanation why this is not possible, because etc.. etc.. where she would break up with him in his scenario. (honestly, he just lacked the courage) he then hit on me instead, lol. i wasn't interested in him, of course. that was way before i knew about socionics, btw.

[Olimpia]

yes, my SEE aunt is the same. she just likes me being around. but i'm so indecisive and lazy, it's weird for me to be appreciated just for that ... xD

Aw! Haha. Yes, it can be sort of strange. I will just hang out with my SEE sister, sit and/or lie around, let her talk to me or give me a head massage, or whatever, haha. And then sometimes, she'll tell me how she finds me to be a really cool person. I'll say: Really? And she'll reply: Yes, of course!
It's funny, but endearing how just being yourself, living in your , can be a pleasure to someone.

nope, a definite SLE in my case. the piercing look i experienced with both LSIs and SLEs. don't discount SLE just because he hasn't approached you yet. (except if you type him LSI for other reasons). if it's not primarily sex they're after SLEs can act so incredibly stupid in presence of their object of interest, i'm not surprised by anything anymore. -.- i experienced this way too often. i once encouraged an SLE to pursue an IEI he told me he was interested in, after he spent the whole evening talking to me instead of her, and then he gave me a long explanation why this is not possible, because etc.. etc.. where she would break up with him in his scenario. (honestly, he just lacked the courage) he then hit on me instead, lol. i wasn't interested in him, of course. that was way before i knew about socionics, btw.

Oh, I type him LSI also for other reasons. For instance, he seems to be an introvert after all and pretty seeking. He's mostly in small groups of people who are laughing loudly at certain moments, and are generally creating an dominant atmosphere, while he is quietly chuckling in unison. Also, he would be really interested whenever I was suddenly laughing or showcasing . Being high(er) subtype, I am not giving out my as readily as other ego types might. So, he would not see me using it as often as others around him. For instance, his best female friend (maybe they are actually dating, I don't know for sure) is ESE, and her is very apparent, without saying. I believe that made him flock to her rather easily and quickly.

True, SLE guys can be oblivious to signs of people liking them or not, because of their PoLR. That's probably why they have to rely on interpreting their dual's , given it shows more visual, obvious signs of interest. This is one way to discern SLE from SEE's, who are more apt at interpreting other people's feelings and attractions.

Did he just hit on you to feel better about himself, or because he was genuinely into you?

[lynn]

True, SLE guys can be oblivious to signs of people liking them or not, because of their PoLR. That's probably why they have to rely on interpreting their dual's , given it shows more visual, obvious signs of interest. This is one way to discern SLE from SEE's, who are more apt at interpreting other people's feelings and attractions.

in the case of said SLE the problem is not only his Fi-polr but that he considered the cute, blonde, very girly IEI as a "queen" who cannot be approached, because she is so out of reach and angelic, while the hot, blonde ESE everyone thought he liked (because they were always playfully flirty, with her throwing herself at him) was the "slut". he told me that and i was like, wtf, it's this whole 19th century virgin/whore dichotomy thing again. i was going to respond to your post, before i saw that you're apparently added something. so it's not meant in response to your LSI guy and his ESE friend.

Did he just hit on you to feel better about himself, or because he was genuinely into you?

it was a half-hearted attempt to get a one night stand. lol.

[Olimpia]

in the case of said SLE the problem is not only his Fi-polr but that he considered the cute, blonde, very girly IEI as a "queen" who cannot be approached, because she is so out of reach and angelic, while the hot, blonde ESE everyone thought he liked (because they were always playfully flirty, with her throwing herself at him) was the "slut". he told me that and i was like, wtf, it's this whole 19th century virgin/whore dichotomy thing again.

Oh, that's interesting! Usually I only know about the introverted (Victim) perspective: "This cool dual who is just "out of my reach" because he would never notice poor wallflower-me..."
This other perspective from the SLE gives me a little bit more courage, haha. It's like everyone who is unfamiliar with their dual will generally either undervalue or overvalue them in the beginning, and be rather unsure.

Was that SLE the subtype, maybe? I feel like the subtype still would have just approached her, regardless of some discouraging thoughts regarding her "queendom".

And yes, SLE men seem to divide women into sluts and ... worthy women? This could be a sign of the Aristocrat dichotomy (and preference for the Victim who rather holds back initially). However, I've seen LIE guys doing a similar thing, which could rather be their way of seeking – after someone who has specific values and morals that are (usually) in alignment with not sleeping around mindlessly.

I wonder how that works for SEE people. Especially when they are SX instinct first, they tend to be promiscuous. I used to think this only applies to the subtype, but the subtype tends to do that, as well. Are those SEE's just putting their Fi values behind their physical needs? Or do they merely use that "creatively", in the sense they are less strict about such matters as sleeping around or not, and concern themselves with (to them) more important ethical issues?

[silke]

an example of SEE-Fi play-flirting

[lynn]

Oh, that's interesting! Usually I only know about the introverted (Victim) perspective: "This cool dual who is just "out of my reach" because he would never notice poor wallflower-me..."
This other perspective from the SLE gives me a little bit more courage, haha. It's like everyone who is unfamiliar with their dual will generally either undervalue or overvalue them in the beginning, and be rather unsure.

Was that SLE the subtype, maybe? I feel like the subtype still would have just approached her, regardless of some discouraging thoughts regarding her "queendom".

the problem is just, when the aggressor has no courage, then as a victim-type you cannot really do not anything about it. if you try to approach them, they withdraw or lose interest. they finally end up with someone who's not the distant ideal they never dared to approach, but someone 'real'. the SLE from above finally married some bland Fe-type (not IEI i think?), who seems nice, though. i'm bad at subtypes, so i don't know. he's the outgoing, stumble through life, wild boy with a boyish charm, make stupid jokes, flirt with all the ESEs, very impulsive kind of SLE who is secretly sentimental and romantic at the same time. i'm always inclined to type these kind of SLEs as Se subtype (but maybe it's a stacking thing, enneagram thing, or i don't know what ... ).

I wonder how that works for SEE people. Especially when they are SX instinct first, they tend to be promiscuous. I used to think this only applies to the subtype, but the subtype tends to do that, as well. Are those SEE's just putting their Fi values behind their physical needs? Or do they merely use that "creatively", in the sense they are less strict about such matters as sleeping around or not, and concern themselves with (to them) more important ethical issues?

i don't think sleeping around is a question of ethics/Fi values. (or do you mean cheating? but even that ...) i know an ESI sp/sx woman who has several boyfriends at the same time: one she considers boring, one who is a guy 40 years older than her and who provided her the connections to get a job she would have otherwise never been picked for (that was a huge issue. and people were complaining about this in private. he's ENTj, btw. haha. duality!), and i don't know about the third. when this came accidentally out in a conversation on a party, she felt the need to justify herself that she's "committed to each and everyone of them". especially towards me, because i think she was threatened by my so/sx instinct, and being the 'nice one'. it's funny because i don't care about static ethical statements like that. i have Ni-Fe to filter the world. gamma Fi is just weird.

[Olimpia]

the problem is just, when the aggressor has no courage, then as a victim-type you cannot really do not anything about it. if you try to approach them, they withdraw or lose interest. they finally end up with someone who's not the distant ideal they never dared to approach, but someone 'real'.

I can definitely see that! Makes a lot of sense... But is really all lost when you give them little hints, like a smile or something like that? That does not count as real "approaching", right?

the SLE from above finally married some bland Fe-type (not IEI i think?), who seems nice, though.

Probably an SEI girl.
For an SLE, they are like the "easier", more toned-down version of IEI.

i don't think sleeping around is a question of ethics/Fi values. (or do you mean cheating? but even that ...) i know an ESI sp/sx woman who has several boyfriends at the same time: one she considers boring, one who is a guy 40 years older than her and who provided her the connections to get a job she would have otherwise never been picked for (that was a huge issue. and people were complaining about this in private. he's ENTj, btw. haha. duality!), and i don't know about the third. when this came accidentally out in a conversation on a party, she felt the need to justify herself that she's "committed to each and everyone of them". especially towards me, because i think she was threatened by my so/sx instinct, and being the 'nice one'. it's funny because i don't care about static ethical statements like that. i have Ni-Fe to filter the world. gamma Fi is just weird.

Hm yes... It depends on what they themselves value. I suppose it really boils down to whether the type is strictly/pretty religious. In my experience those ego types who stay away from promiscuous behaviour do so because it is against their religious morals. Even then, there are enough SEE women who claim to be Christian and have a different guy every couple of weeks...

[Olimpia]

Go to 3:19 for a classic SEE flirting moment.
The comment about the menu... brilliant.

[Adam Strange]

an example of SEE-Fi play-flirting

Whoa, silke. She is a female version of the male SEE I described in the post above. I showed the video to an ILI I work with. He said, "So that's why I like Scarlett Johannson." I told him, "She's totally all over other people, you can see flashes of the sexual aggressor in some moments, but you can tell, there's not much going on up there. Maybe two or three circuits that are connected and working."*
He said, "I could totally get used to that." The "circuits" thing didn't matter in the least to him. He clearly knows what he likes.
So, are we unconsciously oriented toward our Duals? I think so. Would I have predicted this to be a good match before learning about Socionics? No.

So, silke. You nailed it. Got any more videos of ESI's (says the LIE-Te)?.

*I was just teasing the ILI, and testing him to find out if he cared how smart a woman looks. (Smarts are what he has in abundance - it is connecting to people that he's terrible at. I suggested he should make a presentation to a customer, and he looked like he was having a heart attack and started to tell me why he's not available that day. Best planner, though, by far.)
In truth, Scarlett Johannson is probably smarter than both of us together.

[Sol]

Scarlett Johansson - ISFP, ESFJ
Robbie Williams - ENFJ

[Olimpia]

Scarlett Johansson - ISFP, ESFJ
Robbie Williams - ENFJ

Robbie is SEE-Fi, 3w4, Sx/Sp.
Scarlett is likely Gamma SF, though I have not looked into her personality that much yet.

[Olimpia]

I find it intriguing how both Elvis Presley (fellow SEE-Fi, E-3 Sx/Sp) and Robbie Williams will kiss their fans. Seems like this is an SEE-Fi musician thing, perhaps.

[glam]

gamma Fi is just weird.

lol truth! Gamma Fi can be more understandable and predictable when you occupy a special place in their Fi circle, but if you're not there, then it can feel like a huge guessing game sometimes. Fi creatives wield their power creatively, gaining your trust and easily making it seem like they're best friends with you, but this is along with everyone else (they're not actually real friends with any/most of you). Fi bases have unknown "hierarchies" of some kind that you know nothing about until they actually act on them, i.e. when they unexpectedly screw you over in favor of someone else. i feel like i might be oversimplifying things, but in very general terms, that's the negative side of what i've experienced with Gamma SFs.

however, there's positive sides too of course - like if Gamma SFs actually care about you, in my experience they will do everything possible to avoid screwing you over, by finding interesting ways to balance their own needs, your needs, and the needs of their other friends/loved ones. SEEs use "flexible" methods with the trust they easily gain from people. ESIs seems more sacrificial about it, in a way where you may not immediately understand the extent of what they did for you, because they won't necessarily complain or talk about it.

[Satan]

looking at that interview of robbie williams i kept thinking about how rigid he seemed.

[Olimpia]

looking at that interview of robbie williams i kept thinking about how rigid he seemed.

Off this thread, I asked you what you meant by "rigid", you said "like he's trying too hard".

This is often said to be characteristic of E-3 people wanting to fit that certain image.

[Bowie]

I know an ESI-SE very hot Sx/Soc girl in my university that flirts with me very often (yeah i´m a lucky bastard), she is very aggresive in her attempts, and sometimes likes to make me jealous just for fun, i really can´t remember the number of guys that tried in vain to approach her; must be for the passive_aggresive way to be, and the obsesion with her career that they gave up, but when we are together she behaves different, i can see the real person beyond her mask. anyway just my experience, the Fi in Gammas is a bit confusing. especially in the romantic way.

[Olimpia]

[Sol]

[Emmym]

Ahaha SEEs are so hot, but like, if someone showed such favorable Se to me like that, I'd be locking it down and planning our future life together. I could never handle that much Se being for everyone and just for fun.

[HotSauce]

I have been reading a ton of articles on here lately.

I'm realizing I have been an aggressor woman since birth.

When I was five, I announced to the five year old hazel eyed boy next door that he was my boyfriend, then I climbed a fence to kiss him. He ran away, but I told him he was still my boyfriend. He didn't have a choice.

[End]

I have been reading a ton of articles on here lately.

I'm realizing I have been an aggressor woman since birth.

When I was five, I announced to the five year old hazel eyed boy next door that he was my boyfriend, then I climbed a fence to kiss him. He ran away, but I told him he was still my boyfriend. He didn't have a choice.

Damn, what a lucky bastard. Well, so long as you weren't "too" aggressive that is. The general culture doesn't want to admit it but it is possible for the girl to hit the gas too hard if ya catch my meaning. Victim types don't mind at all (and will likely find it very hot) and aggressors will call you out on it before you hit that point but pushing an infantile or caregiver too hard can traumatize em'. They're just not equipped to handle it well sadly. The aggressor approach scares infantiles yet turns on a victim like nothing else. I guess it's quadra values in the end. The victim/aggressor quadras are basically at war with the infantile/caregiver quadras. Thus, they are romantically incompatible on a subconscious level.

[Sol]

pushing an infantile or caregiver too hard can traumatize em

They don't find specific behavior of Se types sexually attractive. At best it is indifferent. At worst Se type wich crosses limits of norms or patience may become traumatized himself. But Se types may behave like Si types in some degree, what Ne types will like.

They're just not equipped to handle it well sadly.

yep. only Ni/Se types value s&m things

[End]

They don't find specific behavior of Se types sexually attractive. At best it is indifferent. At worst Se type wich crosses limits of norms or patience may become traumatized himself. But Se types may behave like Si types in some degree, what Ne types will like.

Well it is basically the same function, but from another angle as it were. Both aggressors and caregivers are the "tops" as it were, but it manifests in very different ways. Same goes for the infantile/victim types playing bottom. As always, the extrovert is much more overt about it while the introvert prefers subtlety. The interplay of that dynamic is what drives those pairs towards each other.

yep. only Ni/Se types value s&m things

Well the name of the two groups kinda calls into mind an S&M image. The "Sadist" is an aggressive conquer issuing commands, the Victim a "submissive/masochistic" personality who gets a sexual thrill when their partner commands something of them in an imperious way (they're quick to forgive bitchiness as well). It's all one big power game. Both know their positions yet know how to best play it to their advantage. In the end, it's hard to say who holds more power, the aggressor or the victim. Good thing for both of them that they wouldn't have it any other way .

[Olimpia]

Well it is basically the same function, but from another angle as it were. Both aggressors and caregivers are the "tops" as it were, but it manifests in very different ways. Same goes for the infantile/victim types playing bottom. As always, the extrovert is much more overt about it while the introvert prefers subtlety. The interplay of that dynamic is what drives those pairs towards each other.

I have to (partly) disagree there. Caregiver/Victim are on an axis, and Aggressor/Infantile are on one. Just going by this, Caregivers are not automatically more similar to Aggressors, nor Infantiles to Victims.

What truly determines "Top"/"Bottom" largely depends on how is used by the people involved.

 

1D types, meaning IxI and xII, are usually Bottoms; except for the ILI (esp. if Te subtype) who is more of a "Switch" due to their Pseudo-Aggressor nature.
Then, Ignoring has many Bottom tendencies as well, especially SEI. With Ignoring you can see how a Caregiver can be closer to Victim, and with that closer to stereotypical Bottom behavior.

Obviously the most Aggressor ( ego) are the most "Top" technically, though the Gamma SFs less so; especially ESI is not as Aggressor and can even have Pseudo-Victim (hello HA) tendencies, while their Dual has got Pseudo-Aggressor ones. In that context, Gammas are generally closest to being "Switch".

Caregivers who do have the ability to act the most "Top"-like without being Aggressor are those with Demonstrative (4D) , which are LSE and ESE, the latter being slightly less Aggressor due to their strong Caregiver attitude. LSI is sort of moving from full-on Aggressor to a less pro-active attitude from time to time (again HA influence). EIE is similar in that regard; they oscillate between being full-on Victim and slightly less so due to their HA. Role types (IxE) also can have an "on/off" quality, and hence are more Switch-like too.


To summarize,

The most "Bottom": IEI > EII > LII > SEI > EIE > SLI
The most "Switch": > ILI > IEE > ILE > ESI > LIE > SEE
The most "Top": SLE > LSE > LSI > ESE >

Following that, SLI is the most Switch-like from the Bottoms, ILI is the most Bottom-like from the Switches, SEE is the most Top-like from the Switches, ESE is the most Bottom-like from the Tops (and hence can seem Switch-like). This ranking is based on the types with no (0) subtype. Subtypes can skew the ranking, sometimes even dramatically (if it is a strong subtype). Add to that different sexual expression due to instinctual stacking and gender skewing the ranking.

[Avalonia]

I have to (partly) disagree there. Caregiver/Victim are on an axis, and Aggressor/Infantile are on one. Just going by this, Caregivers are not automatically more similar to Aggressors, nor Infantiles to Victims.

What truly determines "Top"/"Bottom" largely depends on how is used by the people involved.

 

1D types, meaning IxI and xII, are usually Bottoms; except for the ILI (esp. if Te subtype) who is more of a "Switch" due to their Pseudo-Aggressor nature.
Then, Ignoring has many Bottom tendencies as well, especially SEI. With Ignoring you can see how a Caregiver can be closer to Victim, and with that closer to stereotypical Bottom behavior.

Obviously the most Aggressor ( ego) are the most "Top" technically, though the Gamma SFs less so; especially ESI is not as Aggressor and can even have Pseudo-Victim (hello HA) tendencies, while their Dual has got Pseudo-Aggressor ones. In that context, Gammas are generally closest to being "Switch".

Caregivers who do have the ability to act the most "Top"-like without being Aggressor are those with Demonstrative (4D) , which are LSE and ESE, the latter being slightly less Aggressor due to their strong Caregiver attitude. LSI is sort of moving from full-on Aggressor to a less pro-active attitude from time to time (again HA influence). EIE is similar in that regard; they oscillate between being full-on Victim and slightly less so due to their HA. Role types (IxE) also can have an "on/off" quality, and hence are more Switch-like too.


To summarize,

The most "Bottom": IEI > EII > LII > SEI > EIE > SLI
The most "Switch": > ILI > IEE > ILE > ESI > LIE > SEE
The most "Top": SLE > LSE > LSI > ESE >

Following that, SLI is the most Switch-like from the Bottoms, ILI is the most Bottom-like from the Switches, SEE is the most Top-like from the Switches, ESE is the most Bottom-like from the Tops (and hence can seem Switch-like). This ranking is based on the types with no (0) subtype. Subtypes can skew the ranking, sometimes even dramatically (if it is a strong subtype). Add to that different sexual expression due to instinctual stacking and gender skewing the ranking.

What on earth?

Could you please elaborate more on the relevancy of romantic/erotic behavior in terms of determining socionics type? Because your explanation lacks consistency that conveys the accuracy of determining type based on romantic/erotic behavior. I strongly believe that type should be determined based on Aushra Augusta's interpretation of Classical socionics, using Model A as a tool to organize the psyche better. Perhaps we can have a Socratic discussion so that I can better understand your interpretation of this type and learn about your methodologies when typing people. I would be very interested to hear your response.

[Olimpia]

What on earth?

Could you please elaborate more on the relevancy of romantic/erotic behavior in terms of determining socionics type? Because your explanation lacks consistency that conveys the accuracy of determining type based on romantic/erotic behavior. I strongly believe that type should be determined based on Aushra Augusta's interpretation of Classical socionics, using Model A as a tool to organize the psyche better. Perhaps we can have a Socratic discussion so that I can better understand your interpretation of this type and learn about your methodologies when typing people. I would be very interested to hear your response.

I was not making a case on typing people based on Romance Styles.
But rather, what types will more often act rather "Top" or "Bottom", based on how Se is placed in their psyche.

Again, not a typing measure.
I am just using the Model A theory plus the Romance Style theory to explain why/how certain types are more likely going to act like a Top/Bottom in a sexual encounter.

Personally, I have noticed the trend of 1D Se types being across the board the most commonly "Bottom" in a sexual encounter, whereas types with strong Se typically aren't. That made me conclude that there is a connection between Se and Top/Bottom preference/behaviour. One might refute this assumption. Though I find it almost self-evident to assume 1D Se will be no Top (naturally), given Se ego types are "Aggressors" and with that the most "Top"-like anyhow... (with certain limitations which I've explained earlier, as in Gamma SF being slightly less aggressive aka more Switch-like, I quote: "In daily life they may tend to be rather submissive and as a result may tend to carry over these tendencies into their romantic life.")

I am not a Logical type, so my logical reasoning may not be too clear.

[HotSauce]

Damn, what a lucky bastard. Well, so long as you weren't "too" aggressive that is. The general culture doesn't want to admit it but it is possible for the girl to hit the gas too hard if ya catch my meaning. Victim types don't mind at all (and will likely find it very hot) and aggressors will call you out on it before you hit that point but pushing an infantile or caregiver too hard can traumatize em'. They're just not equipped to handle it well sadly. The aggressor approach scares infantiles yet turns on a victim like nothing else. I guess it's quadra values in the end. The victim/aggressor quadras are basically at war with the infantile/caregiver quadras. Thus, they are romantically incompatible on a subconscious level.

Tell me about it. Over the years I've learned to tone down the blatant aggressive style behavior. I actually come across as sweet, I think, but when it comes to my needs and what I want, I can be pretty direct. A lot of guys are initially turned on by it, but that only lasts so long. My ILI BF eats it up like candy, and we do have a touch of BSDM dynamic going on. He is the dominant one about half of the time, but it's more like "How would you like me to dominate you tonight?" not "SLAVE! I command you to the bed"

I pretty much think I traumatized my caregiver ESFj ex, yeah.

[End]

Tell me about it. Over the years I've learned to tone down the blatant aggressive style behavior. I actually come across as sweet, I think, but when it comes to my needs and what I want, I can be pretty direct. A lot of guys are initially turned on by it, but that only lasts so long. My ILI BF eats it up like candy, and we do have a touch of BSDM dynamic going on. He is the dominant one about half of the time, but it's more like "How would you like me to dominate you tonight?" not "SLAVE! I command you to the bed"

I pretty much think I traumatized my caregiver ESFj ex, yeah.

Sounds about right given the theories. ILI is a Psuedo-Aggressor after all. We CAN be dominant, but we wouldn't like to be in that position 24/7 and even then, it's more out of a desire to make our partner happy over our own desire (hence his inquisitive tone regarding it). Yeah, girls tend to like being dominated and we get that. Even so, a girl who knows what she wants and isn't shy about asking for it in a very sultry and seductive tone? Damn! Now THAT'S a woman!

[Jeremy8419]

@SisOfNight

That sounds like confusing gender roles with sociotypes.

Something I read dealt with the extroverted irrational function in the Ego determining the dominant of the pair, with which extroverted irrational element determining the type of dominance.

Se in Mental block is a conscious awareness of force, no matter what the function is. A male with experiential masculinity regarding Se in the Mental will not be a bottom. If he has experiential femininity he will not be a top. If a girl is a typical girl, she will not be a top. These things are due to their conscious awareness of Force and their respective experiences.

Now, if an EII male has the Force experience of witnessing a female abuse a male for his entire life, then he will have bottom Se experience and will consciously expect such.

My experiences with SEE as an EII is that if a female of such has healthy parental experiences, then it is mostly fine, and the focus on how much I Se can be managed. However, if a SEE female has poor parental experiences with the male being emasculated, then things usually stop at the top/bottom stage, as we're both consciously aware that not only are our Se/Ne values off, but that our top/bottom for both Se and Ne are off.

[yeves]

Se-SEE flirting style