ESFP-SEE's Romantic/Erotic Behaviour

[Olimpia]

i'm interested in this ... usually i'm not that drawn to SEEs and most of the ones i know are female , but when i do, i feel like i have nothing to offer- i honestly do wonder if they are really interested in Ni-doms? (especially IEIs with zero Te, all i can offer is nodding and smiling at people, especially if i don't know them well.) somehow i can't wrap my head around this. one female SEE who approached me for friendship told me she wishes she had a boyfriend like me. and i thought, wtf, why? i always thought that SEEs tolerate IEIs because they are non-threatening and tag along, that's it. but every SEE i know has at least one IEI in their circle of friends, my SEE aunt's most important romantic relationships have been an IEI and now an ILI (but ILIs have Te!). and i've seen enough SEEs dating EIEs and ILIs to know, yes, they are drawn to Ni, but it's still strange for me.

Based on my experience and understanding of the type, SEE (or SLE) is genuinely drawn to this quiet energy doms possess. Maybe it is strange to describe it that way, but can be like a black hole to some degree, how their perceptions of the world get sucked in into the introspective mind of the person... is like the light and matter which is irrevocably attracted to the gravity of the black hole, and finds itself "falling" in/for it.

My SEE relatives, my SEE sister in particular, just enjoy being around me. They certainly like advice on matters, but it is not what they are primarily looking for. (They'd value more if they were a rather strong subtype.) For them to enjoy my company, I don't even have to say much. They'll usually do the talking, hug me, flatter me to warm me up to them and the sensorial world around me. I could see their complimenting being their natural way of charming and relieving their ILI dual.

Having said all that, I am sometimes surprised an SEE or SLE would be interested in such a person like I, one that can be rather timid when it comes romantic interaction. It simply must be the attraction of an Aggressor to a Victim type, I reckon.

the SEE sx/so guy was always very enthusiastic, friendly towards me the few times we talked, him initiating the conversations. i thought that he's like that with everyone. i tried to be extra charming, lol. when i met him a few months later, i thought, it takes too much effort to keep this up, and maybe he doesn't remember me. so, i was more back to my default withdrawn mode i display with strangers. he modified his behaviour based on my reactions, and was very quiet towards me, until i showed simple signs of interest, and then he would slowly approach me again based on my reactions. i thought aggressor's talk to you/pursue you/chase you, if they are interested and if not, they just don't. but what's up with this looking at you as if they are a cat watching a mouse until it makes a move. and if you don't do anything, they look confused and unsure. usually it's me doing that, waiting for someone to make the first move and then adapting to them and deciding whether i should make the second or not. lol.

Given the dual of SEE is acting like a Pseudo-Aggressor, I could see them waiting for such behaviour from a Victim type. Moments when the ego type acts unlike themselves – suddenly shows interest, just to draw back to a great extent again.

waaay worse was an SLE around, who is the most attractive guy i've seen in my entire life, who just stared at me never saying anything. the first time i talked to him he got very nervous and tense... i'm not that attractive, either. wtf. ^^ what's up with aggressors not acting like aggressors. weird.

This reminds me of my interaction with an LSI guy. For some reason, his appearance and bearing made me think he could be an SLE. Tall, imposing presence, etc. In classes, we would just sit across the room, and sometimes he'd give me a piercing look, for a second or so. We would just look at each other. He still has not approached me directly, haha. I've come to the realization he's an LSI, perhaps subtype. Even though he is an Aggressor, he's still not as upfront with that like an SLE would be. An LSI's dual is EIE, so they are expecting of a more colourful exuberant behaviour from a partner, one that may act sort of coquettish at times. When the LSI does not "get" this, they may not be entirely sure how to act. It's likely that guy you are talking of is also LSI-Se.

[lynn]

Based on my experience and understanding of the type, SEE (or SLE) is genuinely drawn to this quiet energy doms possess. Maybe it is strange to describe it that way, but can be like a black hole to some degree, how their perceptions of the world get sucked in into the introspective mind of the person... is like the light and matter which is irrevocably attracted to the gravity of the black hole, and finds itself "falling" in/for it.

ah, if it's like a black hole, then it makes (more) sense to me. some Ti-doms really have a way to calm me down emotionally, while some Se-doms make me feel more energetic just by their presence or intonation of the voice. so, if they in turn feel more relaxed in presence of a Ni type, then i understand.

My SEE relatives, my SEE sister in particular, just enjoy being around me. They certainly like advice on matters, but it is not what they are primarily looking for. (They'd value more if they were a rather strong subtype.) For them to enjoy my company, I don't even have to say much. They'll usually do the talking, hug me, flatter me to warm me up to them and the sensorial world around me. I could see their complimenting being their natural way of charming and relieving their ILI dual.

yes, my SEE aunt is the same. she just likes me being around. but i'm so indecisive and lazy, it's weird for me to be appreciated just for that ... xD

This reminds me of my interaction with an LSI guy. For some reason, his appearance and bearing made me think he could be an SLE. Tall, imposing presence, etc. In classes, we would just sit across the room, and sometimes he'd give me a piercing look, for a second or so. We would just look at each other. He still has not approached me directly, haha. I've come to the realization he's an LSI, perhaps subtype. Even though he is an Aggressor, he's still not as upfront with that like an SLE would be. An LSI's dual is EIE, so they are expecting of a more colourful exuberant behaviour from a partner, one that may act sort of coquettish at times. When the LSI does not "get" this, they may not be entirely sure how to act. It's likely that guy you are talking of is also LSI-Se.

nope, a definite SLE in my case. the piercing look i experienced with both LSIs and SLEs. don't discount SLE just because he hasn't approached you yet. (except if you type him LSI for other reasons). if it's not primarily sex they're after SLEs can act so incredibly stupid in presence of their object of interest, i'm not surprised by anything anymore. -.- i experienced this way too often. i once encouraged an SLE to pursue an IEI he told me he was interested in, after he spent the whole evening talking to me instead of her, and then he gave me a long explanation why this is not possible, because etc.. etc.. where she would break up with him in his scenario. (honestly, he just lacked the courage) he then hit on me instead, lol. i wasn't interested in him, of course. that was way before i knew about socionics, btw.

[Olimpia]

yes, my SEE aunt is the same. she just likes me being around. but i'm so indecisive and lazy, it's weird for me to be appreciated just for that ... xD

Aw! Haha. Yes, it can be sort of strange. I will just hang out with my SEE sister, sit and/or lie around, let her talk to me or give me a head massage, or whatever, haha. And then sometimes, she'll tell me how she finds me to be a really cool person. I'll say: Really? And she'll reply: Yes, of course!
It's funny, but endearing how just being yourself, living in your , can be a pleasure to someone.

nope, a definite SLE in my case. the piercing look i experienced with both LSIs and SLEs. don't discount SLE just because he hasn't approached you yet. (except if you type him LSI for other reasons). if it's not primarily sex they're after SLEs can act so incredibly stupid in presence of their object of interest, i'm not surprised by anything anymore. -.- i experienced this way too often. i once encouraged an SLE to pursue an IEI he told me he was interested in, after he spent the whole evening talking to me instead of her, and then he gave me a long explanation why this is not possible, because etc.. etc.. where she would break up with him in his scenario. (honestly, he just lacked the courage) he then hit on me instead, lol. i wasn't interested in him, of course. that was way before i knew about socionics, btw.

Oh, I type him LSI also for other reasons. For instance, he seems to be an introvert after all and pretty seeking. He's mostly in small groups of people who are laughing loudly at certain moments, and are generally creating an dominant atmosphere, while he is quietly chuckling in unison. Also, he would be really interested whenever I was suddenly laughing or showcasing . Being high(er) subtype, I am not giving out my as readily as other ego types might. So, he would not see me using it as often as others around him. For instance, his best female friend (maybe they are actually dating, I don't know for sure) is ESE, and her is very apparent, without saying. I believe that made him flock to her rather easily and quickly.

True, SLE guys can be oblivious to signs of people liking them or not, because of their PoLR. That's probably why they have to rely on interpreting their dual's , given it shows more visual, obvious signs of interest. This is one way to discern SLE from SEE's, who are more apt at interpreting other people's feelings and attractions.

Did he just hit on you to feel better about himself, or because he was genuinely into you?

[lynn]

True, SLE guys can be oblivious to signs of people liking them or not, because of their PoLR. That's probably why they have to rely on interpreting their dual's , given it shows more visual, obvious signs of interest. This is one way to discern SLE from SEE's, who are more apt at interpreting other people's feelings and attractions.

in the case of said SLE the problem is not only his Fi-polr but that he considered the cute, blonde, very girly IEI as a "queen" who cannot be approached, because she is so out of reach and angelic, while the hot, blonde ESE everyone thought he liked (because they were always playfully flirty, with her throwing herself at him) was the "slut". he told me that and i was like, wtf, it's this whole 19th century virgin/whore dichotomy thing again. i was going to respond to your post, before i saw that you're apparently added something. so it's not meant in response to your LSI guy and his ESE friend.

Did he just hit on you to feel better about himself, or because he was genuinely into you?

it was a half-hearted attempt to get a one night stand. lol.

[Olimpia]

in the case of said SLE the problem is not only his Fi-polr but that he considered the cute, blonde, very girly IEI as a "queen" who cannot be approached, because she is so out of reach and angelic, while the hot, blonde ESE everyone thought he liked (because they were always playfully flirty, with her throwing herself at him) was the "slut". he told me that and i was like, wtf, it's this whole 19th century virgin/whore dichotomy thing again.

Oh, that's interesting! Usually I only know about the introverted (Victim) perspective: "This cool dual who is just "out of my reach" because he would never notice poor wallflower-me..."
This other perspective from the SLE gives me a little bit more courage, haha. It's like everyone who is unfamiliar with their dual will generally either undervalue or overvalue them in the beginning, and be rather unsure.

Was that SLE the subtype, maybe? I feel like the subtype still would have just approached her, regardless of some discouraging thoughts regarding her "queendom".

And yes, SLE men seem to divide women into sluts and ... worthy women? This could be a sign of the Aristocrat dichotomy (and preference for the Victim who rather holds back initially). However, I've seen LIE guys doing a similar thing, which could rather be their way of seeking – after someone who has specific values and morals that are (usually) in alignment with not sleeping around mindlessly.

I wonder how that works for SEE people. Especially when they are SX instinct first, they tend to be promiscuous. I used to think this only applies to the subtype, but the subtype tends to do that, as well. Are those SEE's just putting their Fi values behind their physical needs? Or do they merely use that "creatively", in the sense they are less strict about such matters as sleeping around or not, and concern themselves with (to them) more important ethical issues?

[lynn]

Oh, that's interesting! Usually I only know about the introverted (Victim) perspective: "This cool dual who is just "out of my reach" because he would never notice poor wallflower-me..."
This other perspective from the SLE gives me a little bit more courage, haha. It's like everyone who is unfamiliar with their dual will generally either undervalue or overvalue them in the beginning, and be rather unsure.

Was that SLE the subtype, maybe? I feel like the subtype still would have just approached her, regardless of some discouraging thoughts regarding her "queendom".

the problem is just, when the aggressor has no courage, then as a victim-type you cannot really do not anything about it. if you try to approach them, they withdraw or lose interest. they finally end up with someone who's not the distant ideal they never dared to approach, but someone 'real'. the SLE from above finally married some bland Fe-type (not IEI i think?), who seems nice, though. i'm bad at subtypes, so i don't know. he's the outgoing, stumble through life, wild boy with a boyish charm, make stupid jokes, flirt with all the ESEs, very impulsive kind of SLE who is secretly sentimental and romantic at the same time. i'm always inclined to type these kind of SLEs as Se subtype (but maybe it's a stacking thing, enneagram thing, or i don't know what ... ).

I wonder how that works for SEE people. Especially when they are SX instinct first, they tend to be promiscuous. I used to think this only applies to the subtype, but the subtype tends to do that, as well. Are those SEE's just putting their Fi values behind their physical needs? Or do they merely use that "creatively", in the sense they are less strict about such matters as sleeping around or not, and concern themselves with (to them) more important ethical issues?

i don't think sleeping around is a question of ethics/Fi values. (or do you mean cheating? but even that ...) i know an ESI sp/sx woman who has several boyfriends at the same time: one she considers boring, one who is a guy 40 years older than her and who provided her the connections to get a job she would have otherwise never been picked for (that was a huge issue. and people were complaining about this in private. he's ENTj, btw. haha. duality!), and i don't know about the third. when this came accidentally out in a conversation on a party, she felt the need to justify herself that she's "committed to each and everyone of them". especially towards me, because i think she was threatened by my so/sx instinct, and being the 'nice one'. it's funny because i don't care about static ethical statements like that. i have Ni-Fe to filter the world. gamma Fi is just weird.

[Olimpia]

the problem is just, when the aggressor has no courage, then as a victim-type you cannot really do not anything about it. if you try to approach them, they withdraw or lose interest. they finally end up with someone who's not the distant ideal they never dared to approach, but someone 'real'.

I can definitely see that! Makes a lot of sense... But is really all lost when you give them little hints, like a smile or something like that? That does not count as real "approaching", right?

the SLE from above finally married some bland Fe-type (not IEI i think?), who seems nice, though.

Probably an SEI girl.
For an SLE, they are like the "easier", more toned-down version of IEI.

i don't think sleeping around is a question of ethics/Fi values. (or do you mean cheating? but even that ...) i know an ESI sp/sx woman who has several boyfriends at the same time: one she considers boring, one who is a guy 40 years older than her and who provided her the connections to get a job she would have otherwise never been picked for (that was a huge issue. and people were complaining about this in private. he's ENTj, btw. haha. duality!), and i don't know about the third. when this came accidentally out in a conversation on a party, she felt the need to justify herself that she's "committed to each and everyone of them". especially towards me, because i think she was threatened by my so/sx instinct, and being the 'nice one'. it's funny because i don't care about static ethical statements like that. i have Ni-Fe to filter the world. gamma Fi is just weird.

Hm yes... It depends on what they themselves value. I suppose it really boils down to whether the type is strictly/pretty religious. In my experience those ego types who stay away from promiscuous behaviour do so because it is against their religious morals. Even then, there are enough SEE women who claim to be Christian and have a different guy every couple of weeks...

[glam]

gamma Fi is just weird.

lol truth! Gamma Fi can be more understandable and predictable when you occupy a special place in their Fi circle, but if you're not there, then it can feel like a huge guessing game sometimes. Fi creatives wield their power creatively, gaining your trust and easily making it seem like they're best friends with you, but this is along with everyone else (they're not actually real friends with any/most of you). Fi bases have unknown "hierarchies" of some kind that you know nothing about until they actually act on them, i.e. when they unexpectedly screw you over in favor of someone else. i feel like i might be oversimplifying things, but in very general terms, that's the negative side of what i've experienced with Gamma SFs.

however, there's positive sides too of course - like if Gamma SFs actually care about you, in my experience they will do everything possible to avoid screwing you over, by finding interesting ways to balance their own needs, your needs, and the needs of their other friends/loved ones. SEEs use "flexible" methods with the trust they easily gain from people. ESIs seems more sacrificial about it, in a way where you may not immediately understand the extent of what they did for you, because they won't necessarily complain or talk about it.

[Soupman]

Based on my experience and understanding of the type, SEE (or SLE) is genuinely drawn to this quiet energy doms possess. Maybe it is strange to describe it that way, but can be like a black hole to some degree, how their perceptions of the world get sucked in into the introspective mind of the person... is like the light and matter which is irrevocably attracted to the gravity of the black hole, and finds itself "falling" in/for it.

That is the EP-IP temperament synergy, IPs have a quite, sedate energy to them that's flexible. The second part to this is their "introversion" behavioural introversion that has got a detached aura to it

My SEE relatives, my SEE sister in particular, just enjoy being around me. They certainly like advice on matters, but it is not what they are primarily looking for. (They'd value more if they were a rather strong subtype.) For them to enjoy my company, I don't even have to say much. They'll usually do the talking, hug me, flatter me to warm me up to them and the sensorial world around me. I could see their complimenting being their natural way of charming and relieving their ILI dual.

Having said all that, I am sometimes surprised an SEE or SLE would be interested in such a person like I, one that can be rather timid when it comes romantic interaction. It simply must be the attraction of an Aggressor to a Victim type, I reckon.


Given the dual of SEE is acting like a Pseudo-Aggressor, I could see them waiting for such behaviour from a Victim type. Moments when the ego type acts unlike themselves – suddenly shows interest, just to draw back to a great extent again.

The romance styles aren't deterministically connected to type however assertive types do look for the devotees as complements.

The pseudo-aggressor theory is actually broken and not really true but rather is just a contrived means to try to force ideas on to the theory. Observe enough people and even talk to some on this forum it'' become apparent that there is no determinstic connection between the romance styles and types. "Aggressors"(Assertors) can be intuitves too and ESE & SEE can also be infantiles.

[Olimpia]

The pseudo-aggressor theory is actually broken and not really true but rather is just a contrived means to try to force ideas on to the theory. Observe enough people and even talk to some on this forum it'' become apparent that there is no determinstic connection between the romance styles and styles. "Aggressors"(Assertors) can be intuitves too and ESE & SEE can also be infantiles.

The secondary Romance style of Childlike is Aggressor and vice versa, and the secondary Romance Style of Victim is Caretaker and vice versa; this is based on the shared dynamic or static dichotomy.

So yes,
IEE-Fi and ILE-Ti will have moments of being "Aggressor-like", but in a playful way. (Not so much EII and LII, because of their PoLR.)
SEE-Fi and SLE-Ti will have moments of being "Childlike" and playful, but in an aggressive way. (Not so much ESI and LSI, because of their PoLR.)
IEI-Fe and ILI-Te will have moments of being "Caretaker-like", but in a self-conscious or passive way. (Not so much LIE and EIE, because of their PoLR.)
SEI-Fe and SLI-Te will have moments of being "Victim-like", but in caring/nurturing or guiding way. (Not so much ESE and LSE, because of their PoLR.)

Considering all this, it is indeed difficult to explain how Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressor", or Delta NFs "Pseudo-Caretaker".
I have observed those behaviours in individuals of those types, so I find it to be true. I am wondering whether the key here is – valuing the most efficient or appropriate method.
In that light, Gamma NTs see too much Victim behaviour and Delta NFs see too much Childlike behaviour as being inefficient, so they unconsciously try to be like the other style sporadically.
But this is just a theory, I am really not sure why they have adopted a "Pseudo"-ness.

[dot]

The secondary Romance style of Childlike is Aggressor and vice versa, and the secondary Romance Style of Victim is Caretaker and vice versa; this is based on the shared dynamic or static dichotomy.

So yes,
IEE-Fi and ILE-Ti will have moments of being "Aggressor-like", but in a playful way. (Not so much EII and LII, because of their PoLR.)
SEE-Fi and SLE-Ti will have moments of being "Childlike" and playful, but in an aggressive way. (Not so much ESI and LSI, because of their PoLR.)
IEI-Fe and ILI-Te will have moments of being "Caretaker-like", but in a self-conscious or passive way. (Not so much LIE and EIE, because of their PoLR.)
SEI-Fe and SLI-Te will have moments of being "Victim-like", but in caring/nurturing or guiding way. (Not so much ESE and LSE, because of their PoLR.)

Considering all this, it is indeed difficult to explain how Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressor", or Delta NFs "Pseudo-Caretaker".
I have observed those behaviours in individuals of those types, so I find it to be true. I am wondering whether the key here is – valuing the most efficient or appropriate method.
In that light, Gamma NTs see too much Victim behaviour and Delta NFs see too much Childlike behaviour as being inefficient, so they unconsciously try to be like the other style sporadically.
But this is just a theory, I am really not sure why they have adopted a "Pseudo"-ness.

This might be a very simple thought, but I actually believe it might be related to being either a rational/realistic person (the Gamma NTs) or a feeler (like the Delta NFs). Like Se and Ti will appear much more aggressive than Se and Fi, because they do not focus on feelings or emotional bonds between people in the way they go about things. Being a "thinker" does make someone appear colder in my opinion (at least at first glance). I as a feeler and victim might appear much more like a softie as I act based on my feelings and thus might appear much more flighty than a Gamma victim who bases their decisions on facts or rational thoughts (?).

By the way.. even though I sometimes doubt the subtype theory, because I see quite a few qualities of the Fe-subtype within myself too, I thought that an INFp-Ni might actually look or behave more like a Pseudo-Aggressor, because they are closer to a Gamma Victim as Fe is surpressed more. Just as the Fe subtype might appear more motherly, since they are closer to Alpha Caregivers. Would SLEs-Se then look more like a Gamma Aggressor? Just some thoughts I had.

And funnily I also thought Jennifer might be an SEE! Some of her facial expressions looked like the ones from SEEs I know. I kind of noticed that women might be typed the introverted subytpe more often, because in society we have to behave more calmly. Not sure though.

[Olimpia]

This might be a very simpley thought, but I actually believe it might be related to being either a rational/realistic person (the Gamma NTs) or a feeler (like the Delta NFs). Like Se and Ti will appear much more aggressive than Se and Fi, because they do not focus on feelings or emotional bonds between people int he way they go about things. Being a "thinker" does make someone appear colder in my opinion (at least at first glance). I as a feeler and victim might appear much more like a softie as I act based on my feelings and thus might appear much more flighty than a Gamma victim who bases their decisions on facts or rational thoughts (?).

By the way.. even though I sometimes doubt the subtype theory, because I see quite a few qualities of the Fe-subtype within myself too, I thought that an INFp-Ni might actually look or behave more like an Pseudo-Aggressor, because they are closer to a Gamma Victim as Fe is surpressed more. Just as the Fe subtype might appear more motherly, since they are closer to Alpha Caregivers. Would SLEs-Se then look more like a Gamma Aggressor? Just some thoughts I had.

And funnily I also thought Jennifer might be an SEE! Some of her facial expressions looked like the ones from SEEs I know. I kind of noticed that women might be typed the introverted subytpe more often, because in society we have to behave more calmly. Not sure though.

Your first point is interesting... boiling it down to the Logical vs Ethical dichotomy.

I could see that working for the Gamma NTs, but not so much for the Delta NFs. If Caretaker behaviour was inherently "soft" or more "ethical"-like, then why aren't Caretakers Pseudo-Childlike? Or are they... I've actually started calling female Gamma SFs (mostly the ESIs) "Pseudo Victim"... Generally I have found that the "Pseudo Aggressor" applies the best to LIE, not really to ILI; and "Pseudo Caretaker" applies the best to EII, not really to IEE. This has something to do with HA vs Dual Seeking, probably; the HA is more "active" and stronger than the Dual-seeking... It seems like to me the Pseudo-ness has something to do with the HA and applies to those types that value Te-Fi; at least that has been my experience. So... LIE is Pseudo-Aggressor, ESI is Pseudo-Victim, EII is Pseudo-Caretaker, LSE is Pseudo-Childlike... Needless to say, the Pseudo-stuff is a bit complex.

Your idea concerning the subtypes isn't bad, however the more boosted the Ni, the more Victim the person will be. This is the general principle. So even though an IEI-Ni has "weakened" Fe in comparison to IEI-Fe, they are the most Victim in the entire Socion. ILI-Ni would be the second most Victim. As I said, having boosted Ni makes you automatically more Victim. By that logic, an IEI-Ni couldn't be closer to Pseudo-Aggressor in their romantic/sexual behaviour, even though they may seem like a fake INTx when it comes to certain other (non-romantic) situations or their "vibe". Again, it is not the Rational IEs that determine Romance style; hence "weakened" Fe doesn't result in being like a Gamma. SLE-Se are the most Aggressor; yes, they can appear to be like SEEs when it comes to their overall "vibe", because of the "boosted" Fe; but their strong Se will prevent them from acting like a "Pseudo-victim" or anything of that sort.

I've found that most extroverts are the introverted Contact subtype, actually. I am not sure why. Is it really so simplistic and boils down to most extroverts wanting literally to engage in more "contact" with the outside world and other people...? It is much more difficult to find an extrovert with the extroverted (Inert) subtype, than an introvert with it. Most Inert (first function) subtype individuals are introverted, in my experience. And this has applied to all genders, sexual orientations, etc. One interesting thing is that most if not all introverts I've typed who are celebrities (aka in the entertainment industry etc.) are extroverted Contact subtype. But that makes sense; it would be difficult to come very far as a full-blown introvert in such an environment.

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