How to encourage a depressed SEI?

[Scientist]

Maybe someone can help me with advise?

my best friend SEI has a chronical health condition, which he refuses to treat. He was diagnosed about six years ago and haven't done anything to deal with it. Last year I insisted on him visiting a doctor, and he started initial diagnostic procedures, but when his doctor got transferred to another place, my friend didn't like the new one and discontinued visiting the hospital. His condition is very serious and if not treated properly will likely lead to death in 10 years or so. If treated, however, the chances are to live as long as we all do.
I live very far away from him, actually on a different continent, but I care about him deeply and I don't know what else to do to help. We know each other since we were teenagers, talk almost everyday, and are very close. I can't pretend that nothing is going on any more. Every time this issue comes up (which usually happens about every six months or so) he promises to start treatment but asks for more time. Obviously, he does not do anything about it, and years pass. He explains his behavior by fear and depression. I love him so much but I'm mad at him to an equal degree since he is basically killing himself by refusing from therapy.
I can't just silently observe him in that situation. What can I do?

[Pookie]

Throw rocks at him

[Words]

Ask him why he's not continuing treatment and if he can't do it for himself can he do it for the people who love him?

You know how some people who are down find strength in continuing for the people who rely on them.

[Scientist]

Throw rocks at him

Thank you. That's basically what I did a year ago, when he finally went to see the doctor and started initial treatment. It happened only because I was physically there for him during my short term visit and almost kicked him to the clinic. But I live far away. even if I throw rocks at him from where I currently live, they are likely to end up in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
I also am afraid to be too pushy about it and turn him away from me. Last time we talked about it he started crying and crawled into his introverted shell for three days.

[Scientist]

Ask him why he's not continuing treatment

He said he didn't like the doctors attitude towards him. Such a childish response!

He also says that he is (I quote) "paralyzed by fear and does not know what to do". All my further attempts to clear his motivation during such conversations are not productive and basically the discussion is stopped by him at this point. We have been cycling this talk over and over again for years with a very tiny progress.

[Scientist]

if he can't do it for himself can he do it for the people who love him.

I'll give it a try, I used to say that he needs to do it for himself, maybe I should change strategy and remind him that people who love him are hurt. How to make it not sound like I'm blaming him for the situation (though I'm pretty mad sometimes, honestly)?

are there any SEIs here who can help figure out this behavior?

[Words]

I'll give it a try, I used to say that he needs to do it for himself, maybe I should change strategy and remind him that people who love him are hurt. How to make it not sound like I'm blaming him for the situation (though I'm pretty mad sometimes, honestly)?

are there any SEIs here who can help figure out this behavior?

I know. I was in a similar situation but different types. I explained when I was feeling bad I'd get out of bed and keep going because I didn't want to let down the people I cared about too. The penny seemed to drop.

There are some SEIs on the forum @Pink @Suz @lemontrees I called em you, can you help this lovely guy out with some advice?

[The Exception]

Are you sure this person is an SEI? My understanding is SEI is Si base, so wouldn't they likely be health conscious and taking the steps towards improving their health? Maybe not every SEI but I think they would be more likely to than someone with lower order SEI.

I guess it just puzzles me why the person won't get treated if he knows its going to significantly shorten his life span. Doesn't like his doctor? He can always get a new one.

It makes me wonder if there is some underlying depression or something else going on.

[Beautiful sky]

Redirect their focus to something good and positive. Reminding them of other tough situations they already overcame

[Pookie]

Thank you. That's basically what I did a year ago, when he finally went to see the doctor and started initial treatment. It happened only because I was physically there for him during my short term visit and almost kicked him to the clinic. But I live far away. even if I throw rocks at him from where I currently live, they are likely to end up in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
I also am afraid to be too pushy about it and turn him away from me. Last time we talked about it he started crying and crawled into his introverted shell for three days.

Just keep up the good fight. Throw those rocks, man. If they land in the atlantic... so what. As long as your aiming them at your friend, thats all that matters. Sometimes we just need someone to keep throwing those rocks right at our face, even if we know the odds are slim. All it takes is one, just one right between the eyes. Thats real friendship.

[Scientist]

Are you sure this person is an SEI? My understanding is SEI is Si base, so wouldn't they likely be health conscious and taking the steps towards improving their health? Maybe not every SEI but I think they would be more likely to than someone with lower order SEI.

I guess it just puzzles me why the person won't get treated if he knows its going to significantly shorten his life span. Doesn't like his doctor? He can always get a new one.

It makes me wonder if there is some underlying depression or something else going on.

I have typed him at first as IEI, but he insisted on SEI (his ex-girlfriend introduced him to socionics and typed him as SEI initially) plus he undoubtedly expresses alpha values and is caring, thus, I decided to agree that he is SEI, just deeply depressed one.

and yes, I'm not a shrink but I know him for way long and IMHO depression is there for at least past 3-4 years (which is according to scientific papers a very common side effect of his condition btw). I base that conclusion on behavioral changes, loss of employment etc

[wacey]

Are you sure this person is an SEI? My understanding is SEI is Si base, so wouldn't they likely be health conscious and taking the steps towards improving their health? Maybe not every SEI but I think they would be more likely to than someone with lower order SEI.

Not necessarily. No not at all. Introverted sensing doesn't lead people to live so called healthy lives. For instance, most of the smokers I know are introverted sensor types. Many over eaters are Si types as well. Si is about cognition of states of physical being, with an emphasis on comfort. Comfort does not equal health. I find that lots of SEI talk about being healthy habits, but the default position reins supreme. No offence guys.

[marooned]

Not necessarily. No not at all. Introverted sensing doesn't lead people to live so called healthy lives. For instance, most of the smokers I know are introverted sensor types. Many over eaters are Si types as well. Si is about cognition of states of physical being, with an emphasis on comfort. Comfort does not equal health. I find that lots of SEI talk about being healthy habits, but the default position reins supreme. No offence guys.

so now is about leading an unhealthy life instead? (i mean if is about "comfort," certain things like over-eating might be um, "uncomfortable.")

i just don't really think being healthy is type-related... although people's reasons/causes for their healthiness or unhealthiness may very well be.

[Scientist]

Okay. I have just skyped with him and we might have some progress. Here is the summary:

Redirect their focus to something good and positive. Reminding them of other tough situations they already overcame

tried and totally failed! He looked at me with doubt and told me that I do not sound convincing. That's what happens when ILE makes an attempt to be supportive.

Ask him why he's not continuing treatment and if he can't do it for himself can he do it for the people who love him?

You know how some people who are down find strength in continuing for the people who rely on them.

and

Throw rocks at him

used the combination of above and it kinda worked. He said that it was a "cute attempt to manipulate" and suddenly agreed to make a doctor's appointment for June 1st. If he keeps his promise it would be the best progress I made in the past year.

thank you!

[aisa]

used the combination of above and it kinda worked. He said that it was a "cute attempt to manipulate" and suddenly agreed to make a doctor's appointment for June 1st. If he keeps his promise it would be the best progress I made in the past year.

Check up on him before June 1st and ask him if he's going. Just in case he develops a temporary "amnesia" as the term starts getting closer...

[Skepsis]

so now is about leading an unhealthy life instead? (i mean if is about "comfort," certain things like over-eating might be um, "uncomfortable.")

i just don't really think being healthy is type-related... although people's reasons/causes for their healthiness or unhealthiness may very well be.

Cognitive functions are so loosely defined that they can mean anything you want. I've seen Si defined as anything from having a preoccupation with living a healthy life style to preferring one's own comfort at the expense of one's health, which would be ignoring your health entirely The latter is often used as justification for being another type with non-dominant Si.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

can you get him to join the forum ?

[aisa]

can you get him to join the forum ?

hmph - are you sure this is such a great idea if he's really depressed...?

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

maybe he needs ideas

[aisa]

maybe he needs ideas

Yeah, this I can agree with. Not entirely sold on looking for ideas here by a depressed person though. New members tend to go through the type-searching period which doesn't strike me as sth helpful for smn with depression issue over their head. But that's just my opinion.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

that's a legit line of thought, but you never know. we don't know much about said friend. the OP mostly talked about the helplessness he feels after having tried but failed. it doesn't have to be a long stay... talking to people on the internet is different than it is in rl. maybe some spark will appear. i mean, isnt this one of teh magiks of teh internet? it might be more challenging for introverts/intuitives/darlings/etc to go after, outside this bubble

there's a diff pool of people and he might be exposed to sth he likes. could be the start of a magical journey

then again, there are def some meannie loose canons that render this place a bit risky for a person in trouble. dunno? maybe there are other circles he can join. having some Si base people i know in mind, i think that they are looking for leftalone-ness with a twist ,to get them going a bit. =/ =/ =/

[mu4]

Si types are very passive aggressive. Wont react to pressure well. If he has promise remind him of promise as time nears. I find dialectical thinkers tend to be very indecisive and goes back and forth a lot. Don't waiver.

[mu4]

June 1st may want to escort.

[aisa]

that's a legit line of thought, but you never know. we don't know much about said friend. the OP mostly talked about the helplessness he feels after having tried but failed. it doesn't have to be a long stay... talking to people on the internet is different than it is in rl. maybe some spark will appear. i mean, isnt this one of teh magiks of teh internet? it might be more challenging for introverts/intuitives/darlings/etc to go after, outside this bubble

there's a diff pool of people and he might be exposed to sth he likes. could be the start of a magical journey

I think the OP is a female... Other than that - sure that's the positive scenario.
edit: uh, sorry, I can see now you were referring to the SEI guy when you said "he". My bad.

then again, there are def some meannie loose canons that render this place a bit risky for a person in trouble. dunno? maybe there are other circles he can join. having some Si base people i know in mind, i think that they are looking for leftalone-ness with a twist ,to get them going a bit. =/ =/ =/

And that's where my doubts arise from...
Agreed on the last part - it's in line with the Si-dom people I know, too.

June 1st may want to escort.

The OP mentioned being overseas from said SEI, so depending on her location on that term, I'm guessing this might not be possible. (?) But it is good advice nevertheless. One that I've seen work irl, too.

[mu4]

The OP mentioned being overseas from said SEI, so depending on her location on that term, I'm guessing this might not be possible. (?) But it is good advice nevertheless. One that I've seen work irl, too.

Arrange an escort(friend, family, high class escort)? It's still very touchy, if it seems too much pressure SEI's are sensitive to pressure.

[Scientist]

Arrange an escort(friend, family, high class escort)? It's still very touchy, if it seems too much pressure SEI's are sensitive to pressure.

Thank you. I know that he is very secretive about his health issues, so there are very few people who know. I will figure something out. Maybe suggest him to ask his ex to go with him (they are good friends and keep in touch) or his mom. That might be a good idea.

[Scientist]

can you get him to join the forum ?

He would not probably appreciate me discussing his personal issues online. That's one of the reasons I have chosen the16types - he mostly visits Russian socionics societies. Luckily for me and for him, i got good advises here. Maybe AFTER he goes to the doctor, I may tell him about this place. Thanks again

[mu4]

Thank you. I know that he is very secretive about his health issues, so there are very few people who know. I will figure something out. Maybe suggest him to ask his ex to go with him (they are good friends and keep in touch) or his mom. That might be a good idea.

Do not think for a moment that he will comply on June 1st, what he has done is perhaps just a delaying tactic. Arrange the schedule and arrange his ex/mom to ensure that the schedule is complied with. However it he is too resistant, he will never stick with the treatment plan. It's important not to have expectations here.

If he was IEI I would say keep pressing and use force, make his ex and mom put him into treatment. But with SEI's and dialectical thinkers, it's not possible to use force to achieve a good result easily or promptly. There is also always the potential for relapse. There still appears to be some time before he is in critical danger so keep reinforcing his need to continue treatment. There might be an underlying dynamic that's preventing him from getting help which also needs to be addressed. IMO just don't capitulate in your core demand and hope for the best, because stuff happens.

FWIW

The disadvantages in Dialectical-Algorithmic cognition include instability and uncertainty. Algorithmics suffer from difficulty in making choices and embracing unambiguous decisions. This thinking is more comparable to a symphony of flowing interwoven imagery, rather than a mechanism of clearly established instruction sets. Another problem is increased criticality, which can be so high that it incurs self-destruction, plunging them into danger of total detachment from reality, and leading to mental disorders, especially in cases of hereditary predisposition.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

Psychological Sphere

The psyche of Dialectical types is most prone to transformations. From a psychological point of view, an unstable oscillating psyche is fertile ground for suggestibility. Occasionally Dialectics lose control over the parallel streams of thought fluctuating in their heads. They need only tune out their internal oscillation between freedom of choice and fatalism, and reinforce the latter. Doctors know that a small but accurately timed shock can throw the heart into a state of fibrillation. Likewise, a successfully directed signal at the right time can throw the Dialectical psyche into a chaotic state.

The EIE Sociotype has a very suitable psyche for suggestive influence. It is characterized by so-called moments of imprint vulnerability. In these moments an intense suggestion is triggered—an imprint—the prerequisites of which are a state of extreme fear, confusion, or surprise. A 'No Exit' sign suddenly seen by a person of Algorithmic psyche at a time of severe emotional turmoil, may catalyze a decision about suicide. Exploiting this paradoxical nature of Dialectical types, shock therapy is capable of completely reprogramming their conception of reality, including core value judgments.
A certain, although rare sign of Dialectical cognition—accidents that lead to states similar to a deep trance or coma, followed by sudden enlightenment or the appearance of esoteric abilities.

The other version is slow suggestion, primarily based on entrainment through rhythmic vocalization and/or sound, multiple repetitions of the same phrase with variation. Variations in this case are particularly significant, working akin to the chorus in a song. Gradually a trance state is reached—external relaxation with internal concentration. The greater the monotony, the sooner a deep trance is reached. Hence why some people rapidly settle down and fall asleep under a monotone 'bubnezh' TV.

Gulenko proposes very different ways of suggesting things to DA types, both are workable but the key is the destroy the dangerous delusion whatever it might be at the core of this self-destructive mentality, and to eradicate it completely.

[Scientist]

Thank you, I will read Gulenko, may be helpful. I'll find it in Russian, it's easier for me than learning from the translated version.

[lemontrees]

If your friend is really SEI...

he might have to come to a place, psychologically, where he feels motivated to save himself.

[mu4]

If your friend is really SEI...

he might have to come to a place, psychologically, where he feels motivated to save himself.

This is what DA types think about themselves, which often end up in navel gazing disintegration into oblivion. I've actually seen this occur for so many DA types.

SEI, EIE, ILI, LSE etc.

If there's one thing about their duals is that ILE, LSI, SEE, EII are all very aggressive and decisive about fixing stuff once they've come to a decision point.

There are different leverage points in the super id and id for each type but it's actually quite hard to make DA types pick a path when they're in their negativist death spiral, regardless of the information compatibility.

My parents both happen to be DA types, and having had to deal with their ambiguous intransigence my entire life has been more or less a nightmare as I am not their duals nor do they listen to me.

In my life the only thing that has worked to break them out of this intransigence has been withdrawal and some form of punishment, ultimatum, etc.

And it always ends up with them taking the negative position until my withdrawal is so total that they eventually capitulate, and even then reluctantly.

DA believes there is a middle ground in whatever position they're seeking, and this ambiguity is self-destructive when there is actually no middle ground, the middle ground is actually self destructive.

For CD types, there is never a true middle ground and sometimes their decisiveness is what is necessary but ultimately it takes the correct timing and a lot of effort to have success.

This particular scenario has no middle ground, treatment and a better life or no treatment and a poor life. The ambiguity is typical imo of DA type self-destructivness, and is often a very maladapted coping mechanism in order to acquire a sense of control.

One of the things about duality may be that duals do not tolerate what might be self-destructive behavior/coping mechanisms of their counterpart and react very aggressively to these maladaptations. Even if it is not sustainable relationship wise, it might be transformative.

[Scientist]

If your friend is really SEI...

he might have to come to a place, psychologically, where he feels motivated to save himself.

That was my initial intention, but he has been seeking for that place for six years, waisting his precious health every minute and repeating that he needs more time to mentally prepare himself. I shouldn't be a passive observer any longer.

[mu4]

That was my initial intention, but he has been seeking for that place for six years, waisting his precious health every minute and repeating that he needs more time to mentally prepare himself. I shouldn't be a passive observer any longer.

It's better to ask for forgiveness vs permission. You should force the situation with his ex, mom, whatever. If it's been six years, it's not possible to simply sit back and watch. Also I would say that there maybe a codependency thing going on here where he is using this issue as a mechanism of control. It might be better to give a very firm response, and then get your self distance and watch what happens with the family.

[Suz]

I know. I was in a similar situation but different types. I explained when I was feeling bad I'd get out of bed and keep going because I didn't want to let down the people I cared about too. The penny seemed to drop.

There are some SEIs on the forum @Pink @Suz @lemontrees I called em you, can you help this lovely guy out with some advice?

Sorry @Scientist I am just seeing this summons

The jury is out as to whether i'm truly SEI or not, and perhaps none of this is even type related, but i will say that from a health standpoint, when i have the occasional problem, i can be in denial sometimes, whether because too inertia'd doing my daily routine, or scared something serious/scary might be found, or that treatment might make me feel worse than i feel now. My mom has been known to talk my ear off trying to convince me to see a doctor about a problem i feel is minor -- it makes me annoyed though, and more often than not i'll disregard the pressure, though sometimes it does work (but usually if it does work, i have to be worried enough or scared enough or i've had enough of whatever problem it is). In the latter cases, it might seem like i am still gonna be stubborn, but if it sinks in enough, i will actually concede, so take heart in that your insistence might pay off.

I do agree with the suggestions to be supportive and encouraging though... not coercive.

[Suz]

That was my initial intention, but he has been seeking for that place for six years, waisting his precious health every minute and repeating that he needs more time to mentally prepare himself. I shouldn't be a passive observer any longer.

Is this by any chance referring to mentally preparing himself for chemo or surgery or something like that? If so, i can definitely understand an SEI being concerned about pursuing treatment. He may feel fine in the present moment, and does not know if he wants to ruin his present feeling of wellbeing for a lower quality of life that (temporarily) comes with a treatment like that.

Actually it could apply to anyone, not just SEIs. It's a common sentiment patients have.

[Scientist]

Is this by any chance referring to mentally preparing himself for chemo or surgery or something like that? If so, i can definitely understand an SEI being concerned about pursuing treatment. He may feel fine in the present moment, and does not know if he wants to ruin his present feeling of wellbeing for a lower quality of life that (temporarily) comes with a treatment like that.

He does feel fine at the moment, no symptoms. Even his test results a year ago were all within the normal window. That might give him a false sense of safety. Thank you, Suz, I haven't thought about it but exhausting treatment with multiple adverse side effects which lasts his entire life span might seem a worse alternative to him at this point, since he has not started to experience physically the disease progression yet. Actually, this does sound like him

[Scientist]

It's better to ask for forgiveness vs permission. You should force the situation with his ex, mom, whatever. If it's been six years, it's not possible to simply sit back and watch. Also I would say that there maybe a codependency thing going on here where he is using this issue as a mechanism of control. It might be better to give a very firm response, and then get your self distance and watch what happens with the family. If he's unwilling to reveal to his family/other people, this is perhaps a control mechanism he's using to keep you locked in codependency, blow up the secrecy and make sure everyone around him knows about it.

 

Also as I am a suspicious person, is the disease perhaps entirely fabricated? Do you actually have proof and have you spoken to his doctor?

I should probably give more detail then:

He told me that he might be sick about three years ago (the diagnostics was not completed so there was no certainty). I didn't take it seriously, thought he was just hypochondriac. To be honest I was sure that if someone is serious about stuff like that, they go to the doctor instead of just doing nothing. That's why I was not as persistent with sending him to the doctor. We kept having those conversations about finally seeing a doctor two- three times per year without any progress.

A year ago during my short-term visit I kicked him to do the lab tests which confirmed the condition. The disease is not fabricated, because I have sent him to the clinical lab where I used to work myself. So I actually received his test results with him and did the initial diagnostic interpretation (even though I'm a PhD, not MD). I hoped he was fine and getting lab work done would just bring him relief and we would both laugh at his paranoia. While I was still there, he started visiting a doctor (I have not talked to his doctor myself), but couple of months later (I was already back home) he discontinued.

no codependency. Though he has been sick for six years, I seriously "participated" in that process for only a year. I absolutely have no desire to solve all of his problems for him and constantly hold his hand. I have already started to distance myself from him and he knows it. Might be why he suddenly agreed to see the doctor. I want to do the final attempt to give him the push so that he restores control over his life. And if not, I'll still be his loving friend (probably not as close) and will work on accepting his choice.

[Suz]

He does feel fine at the moment, no symptoms. Even his test results a year ago were all within the normal window. That might give him a false sense of safety. Thank you, Suz, I haven't thought about it but exhausting treatment with multiple adverse side effects which lasts his entire life span might seem a worse alternative to him at this point, since he has not started to experience physically the disease progression yet. Actually, this does sound like him

oh one other thought i had is that maybe something you can do is find him a support group with survivors of whatever condition it is that he has, and put him in touch with people who have gone through the treatment and are living awesome healthy lives now...

[mu4]

I should probably give more detail then:

He told me that he might be sick about three years ago (the diagnostics was not completed so there was no certainty). I didn't take it seriously, thought he was just hypochondriac. To be honest I was sure that if someone is serious about stuff like that, they go to the doctor instead of just doing nothing. That's why I was not as persistent with sending him to the doctor. We kept having those conversations about finally seeing a doctor two- three times per year without any progress.

A year ago during my short-term visit I kicked him to do the lab tests which confirmed the condition. The disease is not fabricated, because I have sent him to the clinical lab where I used to work myself. So I actually received his test results with him and did the initial diagnostic interpretation (even though I'm a PhD, not MD). I hoped he was fine and getting lab work done would just bring him relief and we would both laugh at his paranoia. While I was still there, he started visiting a doctor (I have not talked to his doctor myself), but couple of months later (I was already back home) he discontinued.

no codependency. Though he has been sick for six years, I seriously "participated" in that process for only a year. I absolutely have no desire to solve all of his problems for him and constantly hold his hand. I have already started to distance myself from him and he knows it. Might be why he suddenly agreed to see the doctor. I want to do the final attempt to give him the push so that he restores control over his life. And if not, I'll still be his loving friend (probably not as close) and will work on accepting his choice.

Ok, I didn't want to make any assumptions here so I edited out my comment, sometimes I do have too much suspicion and offer too radical an option.

I think the distance(for certain types/individuals) is good because it presents some more tangible consequences for the self-harm and is not enabling of that behavior. I guess hope for the best.

[Scientist]

Ok, I didn't want to make any assumptions here so I edited out my comment, sometimes I do have too much suspicion and offer too radical an option.

Perfectly fine with me, Nothing offensive in your words