EIIs/INFjs and disappointment

[Birdie]

Yes.

[Emmym]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

I honestly try not to think like this, because it seems unfair to the other person. Other people should feel free being themselves without worrying that I'm going to act disappointed when they don't do what I want them to, lol. That said, I have an EII brother who is very much like this and it has caused a few fights. On his birthday, he refused to talk to either me or our mother when he didn't get the celebration he wanted, which neither of us could afford. I did my best, going out early in the morning to get things for him and taking the day off from work to spend with him. Needless to say, I was insulted.

Pretty much anytime we're out and he fails to get something he wants, or something he doesn't like occurs (which can be incredibly trivial, like the place we go to eat playing music by a singer he doesn't like, or having to pay for his meal when he was mysteriously under the impression that someone else was going to pay for him) he totally shuts down and stops acknowledging everyone. It'd led me to not want to go anywhere with him or invite him places. OTOH, if he doesn't get an invitation, he takes it personally, and later complains that no one cares about his feelings.

Sorry, I just wound up dumping a rant on you accidentally lol but this kind of behavior triggers my anxiety often. On one hand, I want to be considerate of other EIIs, but I usually feel that that consideration is taken for granted and I'm later "punished" if my efforts fall short of expectations. It's worth noting that my brother is a 4w5 and I'm a 2w3, so that might be part of the reason I can't stand it when he acts this way.

[purpleowl]

I honestly try not to think like this, because it seems unfair to the other person. Other people should feel free being themselves without worrying that I'm going to act disappointed when they don't do what I want them to, lol. That said, I have an EII brother who is very much like this and it has caused a few fights. On his birthday, he refused to talk to either me or our mother when he didn't get the celebration he wanted, which neither of us could afford. I did my best, going out early in the morning to get things for him and taking the day off from work to spend with him. Needless to say, I was insulted.

Pretty much anytime we're out and he fails to get something he wants, or something he doesn't like occurs (which can be incredibly trivial, like the place we go to eat playing music by a singer he doesn't like, or having to pay for his meal when he was mysteriously under the impression that someone else was going to pay for him) he totally shuts down and stops acknowledging everyone. It'd led me to not want to go anywhere with him or invite him places. OTOH, if he doesn't get an invitation, he takes it personally, and later complains that no one cares about his feelings.

Sorry, I just wound up dumping a rant on you accidentally lol but this kind of behavior triggers my anxiety often. On one hand, I want to be considerate of other EIIs, but I usually feel that that consideration is taken for granted and I'm later "punished" if my efforts fall short of expectations. It's worth noting that my brother is a 4w5 and I'm a 2w3, so that might be part of the reason I can't stand it when he acts this way.

Your brother's behavior is very far from what I was referring to here and I do not relate to it at all. I have nearly zero expectations of that kind and material things interest me very little, definitely not nearly enough to place any focus on them. I am actually quite the opposite to your brother in that sense, very easy-going and actually preferring for someone else to take the initiative in those matters, finding myself content as long as I am with someone I feel a strong and positive connection with.

[Emmym]

Your brother's behavior is very far from what I was referring to here and I do not relate to it at all. I have nearly zero expectations of that kind and material things interest me very little, definitely not nearly enough to place any focus on them. I am actually quite the opposite to your brother in that sense, very easy-going and actually preferring for someone else to take the initiative in those matters, finding myself content as long as I am with someone I feel a strong and positive connection with.

The example was material, but it still represents the attitude many EIIs have, which is that they have the right to independently determine exactly what others' words and actions mean FOR them, and from that point on, to dictate how others are obligated to treat them and silently punish those who disappoint. It seems like a shortcoming of having contact rather than inert Ne. Ultimately, the right answer is usually to try and be more fair, or cut the person loose if you feel that you can't be, based on what both parties separately regard as fairness. I recently had to cut an ILE loose because I realized that the values I was measuring her against would never be hers, and should never be hers. They were my values, and though they were perfect for me, expecting her to recognize and uphold them would be like trying to squeeze someone into clothes that were too small.


And for all of this, EIIs don't always regulate their own behavior. Even here, I've seen EIIs become icy and defensive when their own hostility or rudeness was pointed out.


Sorry, I'm not trying to accuse you or lump this all on you, I just felt like bringing it up because it's something I see all the time and it's almost never openly discussed. Maybe that's because everyone is painfully aware and my Se-polr is too stupid to realize, lol.

[purpleowl]

The example was material, but it still represents the attitude many EIIs have, which is that they have the right to independently determine exactly what others' words and actions mean FOR them, and from that point on, to dictate how others are obligated to treat them and silently punish those who disappoint. It seems like a shortcoming of having contact rather than inert Ne. Ultimately, the right answer is usually to try and be more fair, or cut the person loose if you feel that you can't be, based on what both parties separately regard as fairness. I recently had to cut an ILE loose because I realized that the values I was measuring her against would never be hers, and should never be hers. They were my values, and though they were perfect for me, expecting her to recognize and uphold them would be like trying to squeeze someone into clothes that were too small.


And for all of this, EIIs don't always regulate their own behavior. Even here, I've seen EIIs become icy and defensive when their own hostility or rudeness was pointed out.


Sorry, I'm not trying to accuse you or lump this all on you, I just felt like bringing it up because it's something I see all the time and it's almost never openly discussed. Maybe that's because everyone is painfully aware and my Se-polr is too stupid to realize, lol.

This is true, yet I don't feel the need to adjust my expectations based on this. Having them is a fundamental part of who I am. It is a matter, like you said, of realizing who can fit in them and who can't and having the courage to cut them loose if necessary.

Edit: I am also a 4w5, fwiw (since you mentioned that about your brother)

[Socionics Is A Cult]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

I find it dispiriting that I will die before the world reaches a peaceful utopia. I am optimistic that I will live through great times over the next 70-80+ years and that great social change will happen, but I think there will always be a Dark side to life, no matter how small it might be.

I have always spent an inordinate amount of time trying to correct things for how they ought to be, and perhaps in a far from optimal way. I have often micromanaged matters rather than looking at the most productive way of improving situations: it is especially hard when it concerns subjects close to me that I cannot avoid and/or that I must live with.

Not going to bed on an argument is probably good advice.

[Minde]

I am optimistic that I will live through great times over the next 70-80+ years and that great social change will happen, but I think there will always be a Dark side to life, no matter how small it might be.

That is such a refreshingly optimistic perspective. Everyone seems to think the world is headed to hell in a hand basket. I almost don't want to know the reasons behind your optimism, just bask in its niceness, lol.

[Socionics Is A Cult]

That is such a refreshingly optimistic perspective. Everyone seems to think the world is headed to hell in a hand basket. I almost don't want to know the reasons behind your optimism, just bask in its niceness, lol.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...r-All-The-Time

[Eliza Thomason]

I find it dispiriting that I will die before the world reaches a peaceful utopia. I am optimistic that I will live through great times over the next 70-80+ years and that great social change will happen, but I think there will always be a Dark side to life, no matter how small it might be.

I think a great, huge positive change on earth will occur to within those years but I think there will be a hell to pay first (and it will be paid by the innocent and the not). I strongly feel this radical change will be in my lifetime, and sooner than later - and I often pray for the graces that it be later. I hope to be here to to see the positive end, but I am not counting on living my whole reasonably expected lifespan, though I would be happy to. I just hope my life, however long it is, will be of use for good. If I were given the choice that it be me or my son to continue on of course I would pick my son. Of course, so would most parents. (The end of life on earth could be today for any of us for that matter).

I have always spent an inordinate amount of time trying to correct things for how they ought to be, and perhaps in a far from optimal way. I have often micromanaged matters rather than looking at the most productive way of improving situations: it is especially hard when it concerns subjects close to me that I cannot avoid and/or that I must live with.

Good thoughtful insights. I like to "correct" things too, in my own way... Right now its on a matter of very little importance, our room-redo project, and we are both feeling kind of sick of it at the moment, having set bars too high for ourselves, and we are doing it all ourselves....

Not going to bed on an argument is probably good advice.

Yes. I am finding that simple-as-can-be to do with my dear husband. But with my ex, it was impossible, due to his disordered make-up. I worked at it constantly, to no avail, assuming quite wrongly for years that it was just due to mysterious miss-communication.

[Froody Blue Gem]

I try to see the bright side, and give people many chances. I get disappointed if something happens more than once and it goes beyond just a simple mistake. I'm pretty opened, and am accepting when people mess up, until it gets to a certain point. I make mistakes myself, and when other people have high standards, it makes me anxious to be around those types of people, so I don't want to be one of those people. I'll admit when I do face disappointment with people, and they don't show signs of being sorry, my opinion on them tends to go down. My standards are higher when it comes to closer friends, who I let in, but I'm not super nitpicky/fussy in general.

We're only human and can learn from mistakes, but some don't learn and keep on repeating the same behavior over and over. It is more when a boundary is overstepped or people can't take a hint, this happens.

[thegreenfaerie]

I agree. I had written a post, but it felt kind of harsh, so I will just say I agree with this guy. Unless someone is fucking up constantly, try to give the benefit of the doubt. Remember too that not everyone works the same. I know sometimes I just really don’t feel well and it doesn’t mean I don’t care, I just don’t feel well and need to focus on self-care etc. I think it’s best to be giving without expecting much in return, if that’s your nature to be giving. I think the ideal would be to give and feel good about your good deed, but not hold other people to such high standards in doing the same... give because you want to, not expecting future favors

I try to see the bright side, and give people many chances. I get disappointed if something happens more than once and it goes beyond just a simple mistake. I'm pretty opened, and am accepting when people mess up, until it gets to a certain point. I make mistakes myself, and when other people have high standards, it makes me anxious to be around those types of people, so I don't want to be one of those people. I'll admit when I do face disappointment with people, and they don't show signs of being sorry, my opinion on them tends to go down. My standards are higher when it comes to closer friends, who I let in, but I'm not super nitpicky/fussy in general.

We're only human and can learn from mistakes, but some don't learn and keep on repeating the same behavior over and over. It is more when a boundary is overstepped or people can't take a hint, this happens.

[Rebelondeck]

Some EIIs seem to be full of suggestions as to how to perfect relationships and behaviour. This can be very helpful when people are actually seeking help but extremely annoying for people who aren't. Individual suggestions don't usually seem that big but the number of them can mount, which can become rather burdensome over the long-term. To withstand a 1000 cuts, it would take a person with a big ego who won't take criticism personally and or one who is rather open to continual self-improvement. Because EIIs seem to have a rather objective approach, I'm sure they must be correcting their own behaviour as well but people wouldn't likely be aware of this......

a.k.a. I/O

[Words]

'Looks', basically @Words, like enjoying the surrounding environment if it looks nice, just wanting things to look nice. If you could live in a barn, you might not care about aesthetics...

Gotcha thanks, aesthete seems to refer to looks, so I think, the looks of a woman? Of their house? Their barn? Aesthetic of art? 'Beauty'? Philosophy?

It's one of those terms I see used in socionics which strikes me as inherently vague, re above

[Words]

Hm. Well, do you care if someone looks nice or not? Like are you going to care if your girlfriend goes out looking like a slob? If you do, you probably care about aesthetics. Of course there are going to be varying degrees to how much people care. This is basically what it means to me, maybe others are going to think differently? Like my husband goes out with grease stains on his clothes and it doesn't bother either one of us and we both barely notice unless someone points it out ..like your clothes are a mess! And we are both thinking, soooo?

Yeah I care if she looks like a slob.

But there's various levels to this, I like the errrr... grunge look if it looks good, as long as there's a sense of style. At the same time overdressing for an occasion may be inappropriate. Sometimes if a woman hasn't washed the scent can be alluring, other times washed and clean and perfumed is alluring. I like her to have a sense of style and I have a sense of style, but it's important to dress according to what one has in terms of overall physique also.

Going out like a slob depends on the occasion, many variables for my humble self to consider and I can't as yet give a definitive answer due to situation dependent, hence my confusion. But if I'm dressed shoddily or she is has to be pulled off well imo. Still something sexy either way.

[Words]

Being controlling is not type-related. Don't use Socionics to rationalize dysfunctional behavior.

Life has control, you need to get up at a certain time to attend work, need to pay rent by a certain date of the month. May not be what you mean but taking it from the individual and moving to the societal and global position, is control really disfunctional? Life is dysfunctional? Individual control therefore also?

[purpleowl]

It has taken me years of practice and therapy. Apathy is definitely not a state I can or want to sustain so I try to avoid it too but it creeps up on me. One thing that works for me is to notice the expectation and that takes practice. It is easier to detach when I notice it is just my expectation and not part of some greater truth that someone should be a certain way or do a certain thing because I want them to and have built it up in my own mind, so the world should revolve around me, which was an underlying belief that was influencing my perception. Not saying it is like that for you.

If I feel disappointed by someone now I have no one to blame but myself. I am pretty good at seeing just how people will disappointment me if I don't let go of my expectations. Sometimes it is more wishful thinking on my part that leaves me disappointed and I can see it for what it is and separate that from the person.

Edit: The way I was taught was to pay attention for a whole day and just notice each time I had an expectation, no matter how small. Like in a restaurant. Do I expect to be seated right away? If I am not and I get restless I just remind myself that I expected things to go one way and they didn't. That's life. After a while noticing was more automatic.

If my family/friend/partner does nothing for my birthday or even forgets. I remember I wasn't expecting anything anyway....at least I thought I wasn't considering I made a big deal out of people NOT doing something for my bday or whatever. Why would I let myself feel disappointed after I clearly said I didn't want all that fuss. This is where underlying beliefs influence and where I start to notice. On my bday everyone forgets and I find myself feeling sorry for myself. I still had somewhat of an expectation that if they cared they would do something anyway. Even though I didn't want a party I did want to know they care.

Most people are not mind readers. I tell them to do nothing and they take that at face value. Yet I held the expectation that a caring person would have done it anyway. It is a bit of a mind game. If I want something, first I have to figure out what I really want then state it clearly to others. I can't passively hope they will know what is in my heart and mind if I don't. So really it is about communication and knowing what you want out of your relationships with others.

This is good stuff and I'm glad it works for you, but honestly to me it seems like I'd be fooling myself constantly by practicing this expectations removal. I would feel like I am putting myself in a constant state of denial. Also, I don't feel comfortable with not having expectations. They are painful, yes, but they serve a purpose: to be my measuring stick for how others feels. I guess I see it as too much of an intrinsic part of who I am to separate it from myself or even control it.

Maybe he's not LSE.

Because I can't see him choosing my friends for me? LOL Um, okay....

[Beautiful sky]

Because I can't see him choosing my friends for me? LOL Um, okay....

That isn't what I said. I said he protects you from people who use you.

[Kim]

Life has control, you need to get up at a certain time to attend work, need to pay rent by a certain date of the month. May not be what you mean but taking it from the individual and moving to the societal and global position, is control really disfunctional? Life is dysfunctional? Individual control therefore also?

I am talking about someone trying to control someone else's life. It is dysfunctional if my partner tries to take control over my friendships or tells me how to dress or how to behave.

[Words]

I am talking about someone trying to control someone else's life. It is dysfunctional if my partner tries to take control over my friendships or tells me how to dress or how to behave.

You seem to tell people how to behave a lot, don't describe a woman as a sex machine for instance lol.

OK of course we aren't dating but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't 'tell' a partner how to behave for instance, so no offence but do you see yourself as dysfunctional in such a situation?

[Kim]

You seem to tell people how to behave a lot, don't describe a woman as a sex machine for instance lol.

I didn't tell you not to do that. I just said how I feel about using such a term. If I had been controlling, I would have tried to make you not use the term, which I didn't do. You are free to use that term and I am free to express my opinion about it. Wishing that you didn't use it is not controlling behavior.

OK of course we aren't dating but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't 'tell' a partner how to behave for instance, so no offence but do you see yourself as dysfunctional in such a situation?

I have tried to control a partner's behavior, yes, but not because I generally tell people what to do (I don't), but because it was a dysfunctional relationship. So yes, I was absolutely dysfunctional then. Under normal circumstances, my partner can do/wear/say what he likes (within reason) and might express my opinion about it, but I won't tell him what to do or not do.

[Words]

I didn't tell you not to do that. I just said how I feel about using such a term. If I had been controlling, I would have tried to make you not use the term, which I didn't do. You are free to use that term and I am free to express my opinion about it. Wishing that you didn't use it is not controlling behavior.



I have tried to control a partner's behavior, yes, but not because I generally tell people what to do (I don't), but because it was a dysfunctional relationship. So yes, I was absolutely dysfunctional then. Under normal circumstances, my partner can do/wear/say what he likes (within reason) and might express my opinion about it, but I won't tell him what to do or not do.

Yeah there is always some sort of control. It makes me wonder who is to decide that which is dysfunctional or not.

[Beautiful sky]

I wanted to comment before but I had to think about it...
I think stereotypes in description are ok to use as a way of developing a general idea as to how a certain type may be, as long as people don't get too hung up on them. But I guess stereotypes are nothing new for people to get hung up on or abuse (eg. sexism, racism)...

...And like all LSE's are controlling. I really hate the term 'all' or 'every', especially when lumping groups of people together. A type description is just like a face composite, a generic person based on similarities observed between a group of people. But the face isn't of a real person, and it lacks any life experience

Not only do I think one should question if certain life experiences could make a certain LSE more or less controlling than what the descriptions suggests, but also what kind, and to what degree of controlling. One could imagine a stereotypical LSE from youth and imagine all the various scenario's or experiences that could change his/her orientation towards control (in addition to other stereotypes), whether to be more or less controlling as compared to the life of another LSE, such as being raised in a society, environment, or family, that strongly encouraged or discourage controlling behavior, being insecure, or having had someone break their trust in the past.

Not only do I think this could this be applied to control in LSE's, but in other generalized behavior found in the descriptions of other types as well. I think people could be 'more of this and less of that' just by life experience, parents, culture etc. Basically way too many factors to weigh in, which is why I don't get too attached to the type descriptions.

I suppose one could adorn the stereotypical face composite (metaphorical type description) of a type with all kinds of accessories to explain them, like enneagram, subtypes, and instincts. However, I think everyone that falls under the same criteria is still going to be bit different. So I think it's impossible to pigeonhole anyone to a Socionics type purely via exaggerated type descriptions ridden with stereotypes eg. everyone of a certain type being coined 'controlling'.
I prefer focusing on functions and vibes myself..Type descriptions are basically like a screwed up compass, if one chooses solely on those to compare people to, imo...

My bf is telling me to ignore you which I really should since you say a whole lot of nothing and oftwn don't make sense and frustratw me but I'll go ahead and ask why do you think archetypes are assigned to types if it's not ro help define which gives us a way to identify and understand

[Kim]

My bf is telling me to ignore you

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

[Beautiful sky]

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

He knows LSE are controlling

[Aylen]

Why? Does he want LSEs to be considered controlling?

Because he is just learning about socionics and duality? Just a guess...he might be an expert and long time socionics enthusiast. I can be controlling, so can my EII sister and LSI mom. The fun part is when we are all trying to control the same situation. Sometimes we end it in a standoff or one of us cries (only in very serious matters). An LSE would not stand a chance if he walked into one of those scenarios and would probably back out of the room slowly.



Edit: ftr, my EII sister doesn't mind her husband/s controlling some aspects of her life, except when it limits her freedom or effects our family in a negative way. She will fight for us and can be fierce. Other times I have witnessed her laugh at her current SLI husband's, very inappropriate, comments on other people and I want to slap her out of it. It goes against who she is and makes my stomach turn. I admit I am thoroughly confused by this behavior and it makes me think she is trying to support him but not in a way that makes him kinder or gentler.

[Aylen]

My bf is telling me to ignore you which I really should since you say a whole lot of nothing and oftwn don't make sense and frustratw me but I'll go ahead and ask why do you think archetypes are assigned to types if it's not ro help define which gives us a way to identify and understand

I don't know the statistics on LSE men being controlling. Maybe you do? I am not even sure how you are using the word "controlling". Lots of people can be controlling, of every type.

Why did you feel the need to insult her in your response? Maybe her not "making sense" has more to do with your comprehension skills?

[Beautiful sky]

read and learn, seriously!

Some time later LSE begins to feel that the IEE is as if playing around with him, being clever and coy, and starting up some intrigues - and for what reason? Meanwhile IEE begins feeling perplexed and disturbed by the harsh directness of his activity partner, LSE's habit to not try to slip out of the situation (thereby smoothing things out), but, to the contrary, to go for a straightforward and candid explanation, to get into very essence of relations trying to completely figure everything out. By this, observant, pedantic, very straightforward and somewhat harsh in communication LSE begins to scare the IEE, who starts to experience the ever-increasing discomfort in presence of his activator. Huxley stars feeling more and more tired of the stress and of the tightening control of the LSE and burdened by the presence. At this point, IEE will want to "slip" out of this situation and "diffuse" the distance. Now he wishes that there would be someone else in place of his spouse (and subconsciously, he is already thinking of other options).

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

Outwardly severe and businesslike, this sociotype contains in itself a tendency towards two quite different types of love: Pragma and Eros:
Combination of diplomatic Storge and inventive Filia makes him an ideal life partner for Controlling who is quite a difficult partner.
Humanist presents his claims in such a form that his partner becomes embarrassed by his unethical behavior and sharp statements.
Due to this he is inclined to do hasty conclusions and frequently commits ethical slips which complicates his relationships with people surrounding him. Lack of patience and self-control sometimes makes him sharp and tactless, he doesn't have enough not only diplomacy but also self-criticism. Due to this he needs the patience and perseverance of the Humanist who will tactfully and consistently re-educates his dual. Humanist acts not only as an educator but constantly he acts on the conscience of Controlling who is sufficiently sensitive and high moral principles are not alien to him.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...uality-LSE-EII

For this reason The Administrator, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt. He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. The Humanist softens ethical mistakes of his dual, performs peacemaking activities. By his persuasions he softens harsh behavior of the Administrator, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, he facilitates communication with others. This helps The Administrator to keep stable the circle of his business partners.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Meged-Ovcharov

You are often unable to control your emotions in full. You can easily loose your temper with friends and relatives if they do not follow your instructions and tuition or if someone's behaviour goes against your logic and understanding. When you are in a bad mood you can be very direct.

http://www.socionics.com/advan/prof/estj.htm

[Aylen]

I usually accept lists of people that disappointed EII and process them. Both the lists and people. So send them my way.

[purpleowl]

I usually accept lists of people that disappointed EII and process them. Both the lists and people. So send them my way.

Sounds like a plan!