EIIs/INFjs and disappointment

[purpleowl]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

[bonkybonky]

I have an EII best friend that does this as well.

[Aylen]

If your expectations are high people will always disappoint you. That is why I try to rid myself of all the expectations I have in relation to others.

"Expectation is the root of all heartache"

[Radio]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

I entered this thread expecting to get mad but I actually relate to this.

[Olly From Wally World]

I have high expectations so I don't expect much.

[Aylen]

I have high expectations so I don't expect much.

[willekeurig]

I'm not sure I get this. Examples?

[Amber]

EIIs, do you find that you are constantly getting disappointed in people?

I have trouble reconciling people's actual actions with how I think they should act based on how they claim to feel, which always leaves me feeling like they don't truly care enough until they do something else that proves otherwise. This is a constant source of deep pain for me, which I'm afraid makes me come off as a grouch or someone that gets upset over "any little thing" (not little to me), when in reality it isn't anger but pain and disappointment instead.

You may be sentimentally exaggerating a bit, but all in all this is a good argument that I'm an EII.

I thought Ne kind of helps you play magic on the world and change people's perspectives on stuff as you wish...? make them want to improve and reach an ideal state..? (rather than getting stuck in a feeling of disappointment).

[purpleowl]

If your expectations are high people will always disappoint you. That is why I try to rid myself of all the expectations I have in relation to others.

"Expectation is the root of all heartache"

I realize this, yet seem to be unable to detach myself from others in this way. At the height of my disappointment I become apathetic (or pretend to anyway) but it's not a state I can sustain.

I entered this thread expecting to get mad but I actually relate to this.

Why were you expecting to get mad?

I'm not sure I get this. Examples?

An example would be someone not meeting my idea of how one should act or be willing to do for someone they care about, like not finding it worth the time and effort to drive for an hour just to be able to spend a couple of extra hours with me when I would willingly do so without question. In this person's mind: what's a couple of hours more or less? In my mind it is a sign that they care less. In other words, I expect them to be as self-sacrificial as me and it saddens me greatly when this doesn't happen.
With LSEs I've noticed that they seem to compensate for this by acting overly caring when they realize I'm feeling this way and somehow always find a way to show me that I'm wrong, restoring my faith once again, only for it to reoccur at some point of course.
This is just a random example, probably not the best.

[Beautiful sky]

My SEI friend is "tired" of her bf and doesn't like his actions yet she likes the sex with him and sticks around for the money. She vents about his sneakineas around her...he will check up on her to see if she's cheating. She hates it but loves the materials. She won't leave but won't stop getting annoyed and accept it. She's an anomaly. Not much I can do except to provide moral support. Sometimes she doesn't include me in the fun even though I help her in so many ways. I feel used but I forgive her because she lets me help her qhen I can and isn't a leech. I feel sad nevertheless but I have the choice i can let our friendship go but I won't. I'll continue to help her because I understand that she has to deal with difficult circumstances. She will help me in tough times in her own strange way. You can understand the perameters then you can decide how to proceed

[Beautiful sky]

My sharp and straightforward bf will be quick to end that relationship if he finds out that I'm getting used. I should so I don't make a big deal about it.

[Radio]

Why were you expecting to get mad?

because i don't relate to most arbitrary behavioral traits people assign to types.

also OP, you're probably E4.

[Aylen]

I realize this, yet seem to be unable to detach myself from others in this way. At the height of my disappointment I become apathetic (or pretend to anyway) but it's not a state I can sustain.

It has taken me years of practice and therapy. Apathy is definitely not a state I can or want to sustain so I try to avoid it too but it creeps up on me. One thing that works for me is to notice the expectation and that takes practice. It is easier to detach when I notice it is just my expectation and not part of some greater truth that someone should be a certain way or do a certain thing because I want them to and have built it up in my own mind, so the world should revolve around me, which was an underlying belief that was influencing my perception. Not saying it is like that for you.

If I feel disappointed by someone now I have no one to blame but myself. I am pretty good at seeing just how people will disappointment me if I don't let go of my expectations. Sometimes it is more wishful thinking on my part that leaves me disappointed and I can see it for what it is and separate that from the person.

Edit: The way I was taught was to pay attention for a whole day and just notice each time I had an expectation, no matter how small. Like in a restaurant. Do I expect to be seated right away? If I am not and I get restless I just remind myself that I expected things to go one way and they didn't. That's life. After a while noticing was more automatic.

If my family/friend/partner does nothing for my birthday or even forgets. I remember I wasn't expecting anything anyway....at least I thought I wasn't considering I made a big deal out of people NOT doing something for my bday or whatever. Why would I let myself feel disappointed after I clearly said I didn't want all that fuss. This is where underlying beliefs influence and where I start to notice. On my bday everyone forgets and I find myself feeling sorry for myself. I still had somewhat of an expectation that if they cared they would do something anyway. Even though I didn't want a party I did want to know they care.

Most people are not mind readers. I tell them to do nothing and they take that at face value. Yet I held the expectation that a caring person would have done it anyway. It is a bit of a mind game. If I want something, first I have to figure out what I really want then state it clearly to others. I can't passively hope they will know what is in my heart and mind if I don't. So really it is about communication and knowing what you want out of your relationships with others.

[Words]

Edit: The way I was taught was to pay attention for a whole day and just notice each time I had an expectation, no matter how small. Like in a restaurant. Do I expect to be seated right away? If I am not and I get restless I just remind myself that I expected things to go one way and they didn't. That's life. After a while noticing was more automatic.

Of course!

[Aylen]

Of course!

tbh, I usually leave if I have to wait, unless I REALLY want to be in that restaurant on that night.

[purpleowl]

My sharp and straightforward bf will be quick to end that relationship if he finds out that I'm getting used. I should so I don't make a big deal about it.

Really? I have a hard time imagining my LSE bf imposing himself like this.

because i don't relate to most arbitrary behavioral traits people assign to types.

Gotcha.

also OP, you're probably E4.

I most definitely am.

[Beautiful sky]

Really? I have a hard time imagining my LSE bf imposing himself like this.

Gotcha


I most definitely am

Maybe he's not LSE.

[Aylen]

Maybe he's not LSE.

Based on that one sentence?

[Words]

How can he be LSE when he's not dating Maritsa?

[Beautiful sky]

Please don't base typing on fantasy versions of the type that's just what I want to say. LSE are harsh straightforward controlling demanding difficulty because they are indecisive and all sorts of off the wall and if you don't believe me read this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ity-Work-Meged

Anyway type based on general tendency of one attitude before others.

[Beautiful sky]

Marista, would you say SLI(especially the Te subtype) with E8 could be like this too, or perhaps LSI, which I've also considered for my husband? Because he doesn't like me to be around certain people either (like my SEE sister who he hates) who he thinks is a bad influence, and can be kind of controlling, sharp and straight forward as well. Activity relationship does sound right for us, so I would think if he was LSI, I would be IEI, If LSE I'd be IEE, SLI and I'd be EII... He's definitely either of the three. What's the best way to discern between these three types (He looks EJ, much like Arnold Schwarzenegger, but it could be similar height and build, but they move similarly). What's the most noticeable differences between the three in your opinion? He's definitely E8 and I don't think that's common for SLI? Does anyone know if that's common?

Edit: If anyone has any ideas, just quote me, and the answers can be moved here so I'm not getting the thread way off topic:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...LSE-ESTj/page4

My best guess is that he's E8 sli. They look and act like the ideal lse without the judgemental and harshness or rather the angerness of an lse. Sli try to tease and lighten moods and they are not as concerned about surrounding esthetics as an lse would be since that is external.

[Words]

@Maritsa and @Bluebird

Could you please explain to me by what is meant by aesthetics? In this or the context of socionics?

[Words]

'Looks', basically @Words, like enjoying the surrounding environment if it looks nice, just wanting things to look nice. If you could live in a barn, you might not care about aesthetics...

Gotcha thanks, aesthete seems to refer to looks, so I think, the looks of a woman? Of their house? Their barn? Aesthetic of art? 'Beauty'? Philosophy?

It's one of those terms I see used in socionics which strikes me as inherently vague, re above

[Words]

Hm. Well, do you care if someone looks nice or not? Like are you going to care if your girlfriend goes out looking like a slob? If you do, you probably care about aesthetics. Of course there are going to be varying degrees to how much people care. This is basically what it means to me, maybe others are going to think differently? Like my husband goes out with grease stains on his clothes and it doesn't bother either one of us and we both barely notice unless someone points it out ..like your clothes are a mess! And we are both thinking, soooo?

Yeah I care if she looks like a slob.

But there's various levels to this, I like the errrr... grunge look if it looks good, as long as there's a sense of style. At the same time overdressing for an occasion may be inappropriate. Sometimes if a woman hasn't washed the scent can be alluring, other times washed and clean and perfumed is alluring. I like her to have a sense of style and I have a sense of style, but it's important to dress according to what one has in terms of overall physique also.

Going out like a slob depends on the occasion, many variables for my humble self to consider and I can't as yet give a definitive answer due to situation dependent, hence my confusion. But if I'm dressed shoddily or she is has to be pulled off well imo. Still something sexy either way.

[Words]

Being controlling is not type-related. Don't use Socionics to rationalize dysfunctional behavior.

Life has control, you need to get up at a certain time to attend work, need to pay rent by a certain date of the month. May not be what you mean but taking it from the individual and moving to the societal and global position, is control really disfunctional? Life is dysfunctional? Individual control therefore also?

[purpleowl]

It has taken me years of practice and therapy. Apathy is definitely not a state I can or want to sustain so I try to avoid it too but it creeps up on me. One thing that works for me is to notice the expectation and that takes practice. It is easier to detach when I notice it is just my expectation and not part of some greater truth that someone should be a certain way or do a certain thing because I want them to and have built it up in my own mind, so the world should revolve around me, which was an underlying belief that was influencing my perception. Not saying it is like that for you.

If I feel disappointed by someone now I have no one to blame but myself. I am pretty good at seeing just how people will disappointment me if I don't let go of my expectations. Sometimes it is more wishful thinking on my part that leaves me disappointed and I can see it for what it is and separate that from the person.

Edit: The way I was taught was to pay attention for a whole day and just notice each time I had an expectation, no matter how small. Like in a restaurant. Do I expect to be seated right away? If I am not and I get restless I just remind myself that I expected things to go one way and they didn't. That's life. After a while noticing was more automatic.

If my family/friend/partner does nothing for my birthday or even forgets. I remember I wasn't expecting anything anyway....at least I thought I wasn't considering I made a big deal out of people NOT doing something for my bday or whatever. Why would I let myself feel disappointed after I clearly said I didn't want all that fuss. This is where underlying beliefs influence and where I start to notice. On my bday everyone forgets and I find myself feeling sorry for myself. I still had somewhat of an expectation that if they cared they would do something anyway. Even though I didn't want a party I did want to know they care.

Most people are not mind readers. I tell them to do nothing and they take that at face value. Yet I held the expectation that a caring person would have done it anyway. It is a bit of a mind game. If I want something, first I have to figure out what I really want then state it clearly to others. I can't passively hope they will know what is in my heart and mind if I don't. So really it is about communication and knowing what you want out of your relationships with others.

This is good stuff and I'm glad it works for you, but honestly to me it seems like I'd be fooling myself constantly by practicing this expectations removal. I would feel like I am putting myself in a constant state of denial. Also, I don't feel comfortable with not having expectations. They are painful, yes, but they serve a purpose: to be my measuring stick for how others feels. I guess I see it as too much of an intrinsic part of who I am to separate it from myself or even control it.

Maybe he's not LSE.

Because I can't see him choosing my friends for me? LOL Um, okay....

[purpleowl]

I'd also like to point out that my disappointment is directly related to the strength/attachment of my relationship with the person. I think I'm pretty good at not expecting things from most people, in part because I don't feel entitled to, although there is also guilt associated with those I have a strong emotional connection with. So, the guilt is always there and the pain increases in proportion to the emotional bond.

I assume this is all very obvious and applies to everyone, though.

[Kim]

Life has control, you need to get up at a certain time to attend work, need to pay rent by a certain date of the month. May not be what you mean but taking it from the individual and moving to the societal and global position, is control really disfunctional? Life is dysfunctional? Individual control therefore also?

I am talking about someone trying to control someone else's life. It is dysfunctional if my partner tries to take control over my friendships or tells me how to dress or how to behave.

[Words]

I am talking about someone trying to control someone else's life. It is dysfunctional if my partner tries to take control over my friendships or tells me how to dress or how to behave.

You seem to tell people how to behave a lot, don't describe a woman as a sex machine for instance lol.

OK of course we aren't dating but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't 'tell' a partner how to behave for instance, so no offence but do you see yourself as dysfunctional in such a situation?

[Kim]

You seem to tell people how to behave a lot, don't describe a woman as a sex machine for instance lol.

I didn't tell you not to do that. I just said how I feel about using such a term. If I had been controlling, I would have tried to make you not use the term, which I didn't do. You are free to use that term and I am free to express my opinion about it. Wishing that you didn't use it is not controlling behavior.

OK of course we aren't dating but I find it hard to believe you wouldn't 'tell' a partner how to behave for instance, so no offence but do you see yourself as dysfunctional in such a situation?

I have tried to control a partner's behavior, yes, but not because I generally tell people what to do (I don't), but because it was a dysfunctional relationship. So yes, I was absolutely dysfunctional then. Under normal circumstances, my partner can do/wear/say what he likes (within reason) and might express my opinion about it, but I won't tell him what to do or not do.

[Words]

I didn't tell you not to do that. I just said how I feel about using such a term. If I had been controlling, I would have tried to make you not use the term, which I didn't do. You are free to use that term and I am free to express my opinion about it. Wishing that you didn't use it is not controlling behavior.



I have tried to control a partner's behavior, yes, but not because I generally tell people what to do (I don't), but because it was a dysfunctional relationship. So yes, I was absolutely dysfunctional then. Under normal circumstances, my partner can do/wear/say what he likes (within reason) and might express my opinion about it, but I won't tell him what to do or not do.

Yeah there is always some sort of control. It makes me wonder who is to decide that which is dysfunctional or not.

[Kim]

Yeah there is always some sort of control. It makes me wonder who is to decide that which is dysfunctional or not.

You don't think it's dysfunctional for a partner to take control over your friendships (beyond offering advice if they are not healthy friendships) or to tell you how to look or what to wear and expect you to do as you are told?

[Words]

You don't think it's dysfunctional for a partner to take control over your friendships (beyond offering advice if they are not healthy friendships) or to tell you how to look or what to wear and expect you to do as you are told?

I think it's dysfunctional for me but is it dysfunctional for Maritsa or someone else.

You're being controlling if you are telling someone else that it is dysfunctional for them.

When it comes to advice, isn't advice implied control? ie if a partner doesn't follow 'advice' enough they risk being dumped, so I think advice and orders don't necessarily have too much of a difference.

[Beautiful sky]

Because I can't see him choosing my friends for me? LOL Um, okay....

That isn't what I said. I said he protects you from people who use you.

[Beautiful sky]

You don't think it's dysfunctional for a partner to take control over your friendships (beyond offering advice if they are not healthy friendships) or to tell you how to look or what to wear and expect you to do as you are told?

I think, most of my family and friends would agree, that I'm pretty docile and that I have the tendency to rationalize people's behaviors and feel differently than what Ej types may, which would be to say "you're an ass hole so I'm going to be this way with you and I don't need to hear or think otherwise, which also allows people to see on the surface, and even to make formulas which would allow them to be linear in their approach such are LSE. Thus I have a tendency to not stick up. Give you an example. We went out for dinner today and the waitress seemed distant and wasn't giving us what we asked for for several times. My bf already determined that she was not a good waiter and that she wasn't doing her job therefore we weren't going to tip her and that was the end of it. I tried to reason with him. I said "you don't know where she's coming from; she could be tired, she could be intimidated by you; she could be listening to you but not hearing you." He had a formula already made up of "who deserves what when and according to what action." I could not break through to him. I tried to sneak in the tip because I gave her the benefit. There was a slight chance that the waitress was a terrible waitress but I wasn't going to oversee all the other things that could have been going on with her. My bf flew off the handle at me for not sticking to his decision. I tried to explain why and he didn't care. He had already determined X, and being linear, he was going to follow through with that. I let him because there's no point in arguing. I told him that I feel for her and what that few dollars would mean to her he said he'd been there and he understands but she didn't do her job so she shouldn't expect to get that tip…explained what tip was for etc. I told him I felt for her and he said "you should be feeling for me" lol I said that I did and I felt good that dinner was satisfying for him and that was what was most important. LSE are not good with people, it does do them well to take the advice of their dual

It's so funny to me that you're so willing to call this dysfunctional, so you must think all Te types are since they make formulas to judge people and their actions and cut people off even when those formulas are not announced to the other party…that is exactly what's happened in the past to so many people who meet Te types. This is why they are not good with people. So you think all Te types are dysfunctional if you think that this behavior is dysfunctional?

[Kim]

I think it's dysfunctional for me but is it dysfunctional for Maritsa or someone else.

You're being controlling if you are telling someone else that it is dysfunctional for them.

When it comes to advice, isn't advice implied control? ie if a partner doesn't follow 'advice' enough they risk being dumped, so I think advice and orders don't necessarily have too much of a difference.

No, advice is not implied control if it's understood that the partner can still make her own decision regarding this issue without being badgered or bullied. I am also not being controlling when I point out that I find it dysfunctional when people try to control their partner's life in a way that takes away personal agency. You can disagree with me on whether or not that's dysfunctional, but your attempts at telling me that I am controlling when I am expressing my opinion is getting a bit tiresome.

[Words]

No, advice is not implied control if it's understood that the partner can still make her own decision regarding this issue without being badgered or bullied. I am also not being controlling when I point out that I find it dysfunctional when people try to control their partner's life in a way that takes away personal agency. You can disagree with me on whether or not that's dysfunctional, but your attempts at telling me that I am controlling when I am expressing my opinion is getting a bit tiresome.

It might be dysfunctional for you, but you've no right to pass judgement on it being so for other people unless you are controlling yourself, in other words, let others do what they want. Who are you to judge?

Edit: judging others in psychology is often seen not about the other person but about the person doing the judging themself. Everyone judges, but considering it is about the person doing the judging themself, I cannot see how it is not about imposing YOUR set of values onto another, despite how tiring you might find it to confront this.

[Kim]

I think, most of my family and friends would agree, that I'm pretty docile and that I have the tendency to rationalize people's behaviors and feel differently than what Ej types may, which would be to say "you're an ass hole so I'm going to be this way with you and I don't need to hear or think otherwise, which also allows people to see on the surface, and even to make formulas which would allow them to be linear in their approach such are LSE. Thus I have a tendency to not stick up. Give you an example. We went out for dinner today and the waitress seemed distant and wasn't giving us what we asked for for several times. My bf already determined that she was not a good waiter and that she wasn't doing her job therefore we weren't going to tip her and that was the end of it. I tried to reason with him. I said "you don't know where she's coming from; she could be tired, she could be intimidated by you; she could be listening to you but not hearing you." He had a formula already made up of "who deserves what when and according to what action." I could not break through to him. I tried to sneak in the tip because I gave her the benefit. There was a slight chance that the waitress was a terrible waitress but I wasn't going to oversee all the other things that could have been going on with her. My bf flew off the handle at me for not sticking to his decision. I tried to explain why and he didn't care. He had already determined X, and being linear, he was going to follow through with that. I let him because there's no point in arguing. I told him that I feel for her and what that few dollars would mean to her he said he'd been there and he understands but she didn't do her job so she shouldn't expect to get that tip…explained what tip was for etc. I told him I felt for her and he said "you should be feeling for me" lol I said that I did and I felt good that dinner was satisfying for him and that was what was most important. LSE are not good with people, it does do them well to take the advice of their dual

It's so funny to me that you're so willing to call this dysfunctional, so you must think all Te types are since they make formulas to judge people and their actions and cut people off even when those formulas are not announced to the other party…that is exactly what's happened in the past to so many people who meet Te types. This is why they are not good with people. So you think all Te types are dysfunctional if you think that this behavior is dysfunctional?

Whether or not you give your money to this waitress is entirely up to you. He has no right to *fly off the handle.* So yeah, in my reality this is dysfunctional, but of course different people are willing to put up with different things. Maybe I feel so strongly about this because I have put up with way too much in past relationships, who knows.

More importantly, this is not type-related. My mother and a close friend of mine are LSE and they would make their own decisions in a situation like that, but not try to control others in making their own decisions.

[Kim]

It might be dysfunctional for you, but you've no right to pass judgement on it being so for other people unless you are controlling yourself, in other words, let others do what they want.

People are saying in this thread that LSEs are controlling and I am saying they are not and I am pointing out that, in my mind, controlling behavior is dysfunctional. That is not controlling, that is having a conversation.

[Beautiful sky]

Whether or not you give your money to this waitress is entirely up to you. He has no right to *fly off the handle.* So yeah, in my reality this is dysfunctional, but of course different people are willing to put up with different things. Maybe I feel so strongly about this because I have put up with way too much in past relationships, who knows.

More importantly, this is not type-related. My mother and a close friend of mine are LSE and they would make their own decisions in a situation like that, but not try to control others in making their own decisions.

These friends aren't people or rather LSE who are dating you so they behave differently