Correlations between Socionics and Enneagram types (old discussions)

[Ezra]

A lot of confusion can arise if we ourselves or people we know happen to be the rarer Enneagram demographic for each Socionics, or at least that's my view about a lot of disagreement. Reading through, there hasn't been much mention of ENFp 2s, and I'm pretty solid in the fact that I'm an ENFp and I haven't left any Enneagram test without it telling me I was some sort of 2. It seems like I'm most likely a 2w3, but that doesn't say I didn't have a strong presence of 7 and 9 in my results. For those who have looked deeper into the Enneagram, aren't there other links to other types, like 'lesser wings' so to speak? I thought I read somewhere that the types are influenced by some other variable as well as the wing. Might clear up where there seems to be a lot of odd throw in for Enneagram match ups, besides the difficulty that already comes with matching up two systems already so different.

There are a lot of different factors. Besides your two wings, there are stackings to consider, making a huge total of different types.

That is questionable. I know an INFj who fully identifies with type 4. She is the perfect 4 in every respect in both her own and my opinion.

What I meant was that Ni is stronger in the 4 than Si is.

But then you could ask yourself why someone who places so much value on Ni would devalue it.

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

You didn't answer my question. Have you met Expat in real life?

That is comparable to saying things like "Ni is about time and imagining things". And you think that such considerations are enough to understand the functions correctly!?

No, but if you read the Ti base function description on wikisocion, it describes you perfectly. Although I disagree, I understand exactly why Slacker Mom thinks you're an LSI. I can understand why she thinks you're her conflictor. I could easily see you as my conflictor. Complete clash of values.

No. I've already done so too many times.

No you haven't.

Sorry, I should have said "I've already attempted to do so too many times".

Okay, fair enough. Sorry we couldn't come to an agreement. Nonetheless, I'd really appreciate it if you found any of the topics in which you attempted to explain to me how an 8 can have weak Se. Adequate or not, I want to see if you've done so.

The 4 is probably INFp(example of people mixing up J/P).

Or not. People don't just mix up two socionics types like these two. Either you have Ni and Fe ego block, or Fi and Ne ego block. People who mix them up are using dichotomies to determine their type, and in socionics, that is not the correct way.

Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

And you call yourself an ILI. Where's your Te?

These correlations are based on experience (i.e. persons I have known and typed, and some expectancy), and have some accuracy (I think).

ILE 5 9
LII 5
ESE 2 3
SEI 4 9

SLE 7 8
LSI 1 8
EIE 2 6
IEI 4 9

LIE 3 5 6 7 8
ILI 4 9
SEE 2 7 9
ESI 6 8

LSE 1 3 8
SLI 5 9
IEE 2 9
EII 1 2 5 6

For Alpha, I don't really see ILE 9, and you know my response to SEI 4. For Beta, I don't have any qualms, although I think perhaps 3 is very likely for EIE. For Gamma, I think you're quite off the mark with most of your stypings. I have difficulty seeing an EJ 7, and hence an LIE 7. 8 I'm still unsure about. I also have major problems with ESI 8, and SEE 9, and minor problems with SEE 2 and ILI 4 or 9. ILI I think is much more suited to a 5. For Delta, I'm not too fussed.

[Expat]

Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

*whew* I'm very glad you think so. I wouldn't want to be the kind of person you describe "ENTjs" as being.

[Phaedrus]

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

You didn't answer my question. Have you met Expat in real life?

No, but I have met my ENTj friend in real life many, many times, and I can tell for sure that he and Expat are the same type by the structure and content of Expat's posts. There is no lack of information on Expat's person, and what there is is more than enough to enable me to reach that conclusion.

if you read the Ti base function description on wikisocion, it describes you perfectly.

1. That is incorrect.
2. Even if it was correct, you wouldn't be able to determine that.

Although I disagree, I understand exactly why Slacker Mom thinks you're an LSI. I can understand why she thinks you're her conflictor. I could easily see you as my conflictor. Complete clash of values.

Such arguments are total crap. And what Slacker Mom may think of my type is of course totally uninteresting and irrelevant.

[Ezra]

No, but I have met my ENTj friend in real life many, many times, and I can tell for sure that he and Expat are the same type by the structure and content of Expat's posts. There is no lack of information on Expat's person, and what there is is more than enough to enable me to reach that conclusion.

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

Such arguments are total crap. And what Slacker Mom may think of my type is of course totally uninteresting and irrelevant.

If you're her supposed Mirage, why do you clash so much?

[FDG]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

Wikisocion isn't the ultimate source for every description - and you lose even more credibility if you think a description that names such things as "LSIs do not share information they think is valuable. Often this means they will not share the amount of money that they have or passwords to their computer." <--???

"Unlike their territorial mirror (LSE), the LSI enjoys creating a comfortable,"<-- LSE mirror??

"Failure to meet these goals causes the LSI to express anger and lose control of his emotions in the form of a seemingly childish tantrum."<-- childish tantrum? that can't be type related, please

I'm not going on.

[Ezra]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

Wikisocion isn't the ultimate source for every description - and you lose even more credibility if you think a description that names such things as "LSIs do not share information they think is valuable. Often this means they will not share the amount of money that they have or passwords to their computer." <--???

"Unlike their territorial mirror (LSE), the LSI enjoys creating a comfortable,"<-- LSE mirror??

"Failure to meet these goals causes the LSI to express anger and lose control of his emotions in the form of a seemingly childish tantrum."<-- childish tantrum? that can't be type related, please

I'm not going on.

Okay, as far as I can go to agree with you is by using this:

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htm

The description of the 9w8 on there.

But really, I would honestly like to know how this guy can be 9 with strong Se, when 9s are characterised by weaker Se.

I would like to agree with you, I would. But I just can't see how I can. It makes no sense in my head at all. Make it make sense, and you might convince me.

[Expat]

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

What I find interesting is that you only look at the reasons why I can't be an 8 in your view, but pay not attention to the many reasons why I can't see myself as 5 or 6. I find it much easier to agree that I am not an 8, than to agree that I am a 5 or 6.

[Ezra]

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

What I find interesting is that you only look at the reasons why I can't be an 8 in your view, but pay not attention to the many reasons why I can't see myself as 5 or 6. I find it much easier to agree that I am not an 8, than to agree that I am a 5 or 6.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

[Joy]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

[Expat]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Yes. Because, as I have already mentioned, Fives are directly derived from Jung's Introverted Thinking type. This is painfully obvious if you read Jung's and the Enneagram texts. That is why both LIIs and ILIs fit into it, because if you read Jung's description through socionics eyes, he was describing real-life LIIs and ILIs -- "thinkers who are introverted".

The description of 5 is inconsistent with EJ temperament.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

Then either

- you don't really understand me and my motivations
- your own version of what a 5 is, is different from what is described in even very lengthy profiles online.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's not helpful to look for it reading 5 or 5w6 profiles.

Te may be a 5 "thing", but a 5 is not a Te EJ.

[Ezra]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Actually, after having talked to Salawa briefly just now, I've decided you're probably right. Not only that, but that there is a distinct Ti > Te preference in many if not most.

[Ezra]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Yes. Because, as I have already mentioned, Fives are directly derived from Jung's Introverted Thinking type. This is painfully obvious if you read Jung's and the Enneagram texts. That is why both LIIs and ILIs fit into it, because if you read Jung's description through socionics eyes, he was describing real-life LIIs and ILIs -- "thinkers who are introverted".

The description of 5 is inconsistent with EJ temperament.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

Then either

- you don't really understand me and my motivations
- your own version of what a 5 is, is different from what is described in even very lengthy profiles online.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's not helpful to look for it reading 5 or 5w6 profiles.

Te may be a 5 "thing", but a 5 is not a Te EJ.

Okay, fair enough. What about 1w9 or 6w5?

[Expat]

Okay, fair enough. What about 1w9 or 6w5?

I've already addressed 6 before.

Look, 6 corresponds well to ESIs. To the extent that LIEs share functional preferences with ESIs, there will be similarities. Especially in the case of people who have Fi as PoLR, a Fi dual-seeking person may appear as a 6. But that doesn't change the fact that if you analyse what really motivates LIEs and where they are strong and/or weak, it's not the same as 6s.

Just like I don't share the weaknesses or strengths. If you try to understand me - as I really am - using 6, you won't get it right.

1 makes more sense but I won't address now the problems I see with it. Later.

[FDG]

Te is the ultimate 5 "thing"? Is it purchased in a videogame store? Or maybe in the new preppy mall?

Seriously now, I agree with Expat that the 5 description is a direct translation of Jung's introverted thinking. I personally don't have any problem seeing Expat as an 8w9 after having met him, actually I can't see him as a 1 at all - zero nervous energy, and no uptightness - plus, as another point to subtract to that hypothesis, 1s in my experience strongly tend towards being skinny.

[Phaedrus]

If you're her supposed Mirage, why do you clash so much?

That's an interesting question I have thought of myself more than once. None of the ENFps I know IRL irritates me nearly as much as she does.

[Dioklecian]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

[machintruc]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

These correlations are actually just a newbie trap.

[Dioklecian]

By the way, I like the design of your website, simple yet sophisticated. (@hitta)

[Dioklecian]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

These correlations are actually just a newbie trap.

How come? I find that they correlate ok with the emotional state of the types I have observed.

[Ezra]

Okay. I can see 8w9 for Expat now when I really think about it. Obviously not 8w7, but 8w9 I can see. Okay. I concede.

[Hitta]

For some reason I get the "economical" ESTj vibe from Expat.

[Dioklecian]

Hitta I have been trying to ask this question elsewhere, if imay ask again, what do you base your type descriptions on?

[machintruc]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

These correlations are actually just a newbie trap.

How come? I find that they correlate ok with the emotional state of the types I have observed.

EIE-1 : EIE's are known to show some perfectionism, but I don't think EIE is correlated to E1 more than to E2.
EII-4 : EII's are adaptive and conformistic, and talk like tape recorders. That's impossible.
IEE-6 : ok.
IEI-4 : maybe this could happen, but IEI's are not really known to be depressive, like Fours.
LIE-8 : not really correlated, but cases happen.
LII-5 : ok.
ILE-3 : this is possible.
ILI-5 : that's what I call a total n00b trap. Fives are anxious by their nature. Not ILI's.
LSE-9 : !!? can a rational type possibly be a Nine !??
LSI-9 : idem.
ESE-2 : ok.
ESI-6 : This is possible. I must verify if ESI is more correlated to E6 or to E8. Sixes are anxious by their nature, not Eights. It's probably more correlated to E8.
SLE-3 : This is possible, but SLE's are more likely to be E7, because dominant types are impulsive by their nature.
SLI-7 : No introtim can be E7. This is impossible. Sevens produce too much neurotransmitters.
SEE-7 : ok.
SEI-7 : The worst correlation of that webpage. SEI's produce very few neurotransmitters. It's confusing E7 with E9. Another n00b trap.

[Dioklecian]

I agree to a point, in particular with your observation about ILIs. Personally I am anxious all the time, but I hear that other ILIs are not.


I will add more in a minute.

[MysticSonic]

PTypes' correlations don't work with Socionics, as some of the Keirseyian descriptions(especially in Understand Me II) do not correlate exactly with Socionic descriptions. So, essentially, they're describing different individuals(individuals with different character.)

[Dioklecian]

Again I will agree to some extend, however I think that the ptypes has a good grip especially on the correlations with the personality disorders (to a point). The problem is more general, with the Enneagram itself, because it only has place for 9 types, not 16.

[Ezra]

For some reason I get the "economical" ESTj vibe from Expat.

No, Expat is not an LSE. He doesn't give a shit about Si. I've seen him.

Seriously, hitta, do you truly believe you're an ILI?

Hitta I have been trying to ask this question elsewhere, if imay ask again, what do you base your type descriptions on?

His vibes, obviously. Or his own personal system, Hittonics.

[Hitta]

I follow my system because it explains things the best, the day you through something out that explains my system better than it does I'll drop my system for yours. But, empirically my system is more accurate than the old one.

BTW I'm LII not ILI.

[Dioklecian]

Where do you get the personality traits from, do you deduce them or do you induce them?

[Hitta]

Got them from a model I saw on socionics, and from Victor Gulenko, and I've expanded on it a lot.

[Dioklecian]

Do you use your own observations at all?

[Hitta]

in developing the function descriptions i have

[Dioklecian]

The reason why I ask is that I am looking to construct an inductive method for studying type and I am looking for others that share this interest.

[Ezra]

I follow my system because it explains things the best, the day you through something out that explains my system better than it does I'll drop my system for yours. But, empirically my system is more accurate than the old one.

BTW I'm LII not ILI.

I don't have a system.

[machintruc]

Some people try to correlate both systems to each other.

Although it may appear a "socionic enthusiast" white logic-excessing thing like extensive use of Reinin's dichotomies or Model T or even the +/- thing, I think it's very useful to master both systems. Why ?

The answer is actually very simple : there's several styles for each socionic type, and not knowing them may lead to mistyping an information metabolism type.

But what's the difference between Enneagram and Socionics ?

Is it the number of types ? from 9 to thousands depending to schools, as compared to 16 up to 256 if however you're actually believing subtype theories. But I'm retaining 27 and 16 for some reason I'll explain later.

Is it the elements of model ? 3 as compared to 8 or 16 ?

Is it the esoteric nature of the model ? Some retarded Myers-Briggs-like occidental rednecky capitali$$$tic model that explains 16 excuses to discriminate someone you don't like, as compared to some wise oriental-like esoteric thing that explains the beauty of individuality, and 9 paths that lead to Allah. BTW, I'm tempted to say "discriminating an ESE is not that bad because they're retarded" but I just won't.



But the most important difference is :

Enneagram is a PHYSIOLOGICAL model which evaluates levels of neurotransmitters. i.e. chemical styles, dominant moods.

Socionics is a COGNITIVE model which evaluates the way we tend to input, process, and output information, in mental, verbal, and physical ways, i.e. ways of thinking, talking, and doing.

Cognitive means how we see reality, which aspects (hence "information aspects"). They are 16. And how, by means of amount, quality, complexity or such. It types cognitive content.

Physiological means what kind of brain activity we have, and therefore, the emotional content of people or inanimate things such as music or video games. The Three main neurotransmitters are : Serotonin, Norepinephrin, and Dopamin.

But remember the biggest lie is : "mental disorders are caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain". You can be mentally healthy and moody, but by learning to accept and "use" moods. Otherwise, only Social Ones would be healthy, because it's the only "balanced" type.

Serotonin level determines how we're likely to see the world, whereas Dopamin level determines how we're likely to deal with it. I'll explain on Norepinephrin later.

Therefore, you'll be likely to develop some information elements rather than others. For example, High Dopamin level is often related to . I'll explain later.

There's a table which explains on it : www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtTina.asp

Serotonin level is Low for types 4, 6, and 8 - Moderate for types 1, 3 and 5 - High for 2, 7, and 9.

Dopamin level is Low for types 4, 5, and 9 - Moderate for types 1, 2 and 6 - High for types 3, 7, and 8.



I don't agree with Norepinephrin levels. I have recently done research. I know for example :

- Fours which aren't anxious at all, with deliberate thinking
- Sixes that aren't phobic or counterphobic, but rather resemble soft Eights
- Anxious Nines that are like idiosincratic Fives
- contained Threes or Sevens which are more like Ones or even-tempered Eights
- Eights that are as nervous as counterphobic Sixes and therefore may be confused with them
- Shy-looking Fives which can be confused with Ones, Fours or Nines
- Contained Twos that may be confused with Ones

Classical definitions may lead to mistypings. For example, I typed an LSI priest I know first as E8 - but he was even-tempered, he couldn't be E8. He seemed - and is - energitic as an E8, then I retyped him as E1. But E1 aren't. I believed E3 Introtims didn't exist. He was actually a Preservational 3 LSI. That may sound retarded. Remember Metallica-like bands. You may have an idea of the mood of E3 Introtims. And this is no joke. Quit retarded n00b-eysenckian-keirsevian-myersian-like typings. We're dealing with socionics, not MBTT.

Classical definitions are : Intimate for types 2, 3, and 7 ; Social for types 4, 6 and 8 ; Preservational for types 1, 5, and 9. That usually makes someone think : "types 2, 3, 7 and 8 statistically extroverted and types 4, 5, 6, and 9 statistically introverted.

I've done some research. E/I is not only related to Dopamin level, but to the overall neurotransmitter levels.

It's more easy to explain like that : here's the approximate percentage of Extrotims for a type :

One - 50&#37;
Two - 70%
Three - 70%
Four - 10%
Five - 30%
Six - 30%
Seven - 90%
Eight - 50%
Nine - 50%

You see. I added serotonin and dopamin stuff. 891's are actually ambivert. NO JOKE. You were lied. Despite the official descriptions, Eights are as lively than Nines, Sixes are as lively than Fives, and Twos are as lively than Threes.

I call this the "liveliness" of the type.

Very High : Type 7
High : Types 2 and 3
Moderate : types 8, 9, and 1.
Low : Types 5 and 6
Very Low : Type 4

I supposed there was a law of golden proportion. A Lively type has 62% probability to be an Extrotim whereas a Non-Lively type has 62% probability to be an Introtim.

But then, the Norepinephrin level !? I think it's related to subtypes.

Preservational subtype = Norepinephrin Low - having deliberate thinking, adapted for survival
Social subtype = Norepinephrin Moderate - having concentration, thinking on responding to slightly intellectual situations
Intimate subtype = Norepinephrin High - having restless thinking, therefore thinking on expanding - more craintive than other subtypes


Think of an E6 :

As Low serotonin, therefore he's moody.
As Moderate dopamin, therefore he's lightly energitic and can deal with most situations, but usually not responding by competing.

Intimate subtype : typical Counterphobic - seeking security in an aggressive manner. Conquering to world, intimidating others or even desensitising oneself. But fear is still present.

Social subtype : typical Phobic - seeking security in a compliant manner, tries to respond to social situations. Avoiding deviance.

Preservational subtype : not phobic or counterphobic - seeking security in a withdrawn manner, tries to defend already got security.


I think Norepinephrin level is related to the Process/Result dichotomy. Most Intimate subtypes are Result, whereas Most Social subtypes are Process. Preservational subtypes have 50% of each.

I mean, Process Introtims look more "introverted" than Result Introtims. That'd explain why some Introtims are so "outgoing" and "expressive" or "reckless". They are usually more lively than Process Introtims. LII's are usually more lively than ILI's, whereas SLI's are more lively than LSI's. SLE's are more than LSE's and so on. For each quasi-identical pair, the Result type is usually the most lively and usually initiates on conversations, i.e. playing the role of the extrovert. With other Introtims, I tend to do so.

Let's add neurotransmitters again. We now have 7 levels.



Where *i means Intimate, *s means Social, and *p means Preservational.

For those who don't like the Enneagram itself (personnally I don't too much either), there's an alternative :

Let's call it Model Φ (or Model Phi).

There are three variables : Serotonin, Norepinephrin and Dopamin. Here's a formula for an Intimate Five like me :

S0 N+ D-

zero means Moderate, plus means High, and minus means Low.

To make it more simpler, just omit the letters :

0+-

Therefore, I'm a LII 0+-. You may start a website called "the27types.com" or such.

You see, it's pretty much like colours. Blue for S, Green for N, and Red for D.

To finish this study, or expos&#233;, no matter how you're calling it, I'll make a TIM-Enneatype correlation table. However without subtypes to make the thing much simpler to understand.



Green means : "I have at least seen one real-life or fictional case".
Yellow means : "I don't have examples yet. I think it MAY be possible. Please send me cases."
White means : "I have an hard time to imagine that. Please send me cases, I'd be quite intrigued to know the existence of such oxymorons."

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[FDG]

Since I still get to be the type that has the highest score in everything, I like it lol

btw ESIs can't be 7s

[Gilly]

How come you have all EPs as 7s other than SLE?

[Gilly]

btw ESIs can't be 7s

Agreed, although I'd be willing to bet most Se subs are 6w7.

[machintruc]

Since I still get to be the type that has the highest score in everything, I like it lol

btw ESIs can't be 7s

That's what I thought for a long time until I remember an ESI +-+ classmate.

But +-+ is more typical of SEE. A +-+ girl would be a typical "femme fatale".

BTW, Catherine Zeta Jones has been typed LSI and E7, though she may actually be E1 or E2 or E3.

There's still a chance (20-25&#37 for a preservational 7 to be an Introtim, but a +++ (intimate 7) Introtim would be almost impossible : theoretically less than 2-3% of intimate Sevens or .05% of human population, and pratically never seen a single case.

preservational Sevens (+-+) produce as much neurotransmitters as intimate Nines (++-).

How come you have all EPs as 7s other than SLE?

for example, ILE-7 may be an impulsive geek...