Correlations between Socionics and Enneagram types (old discussions)

[Phaedrus]

INTj seems about right, although I'm a 9(I have a very strong 5 component, though.)

Seeing such obviously false statements is starting to get on my nerves. You absolutely cannot be a 9 if you are an INTj, MS. You have constantly described yourself as an irrational type ever since you joined this forum, and yet you continue to believe that you are an INTj. That is such a crap, simply put, that I urge you to wake up. Realize that you cannot be an INTj under these circumstances. It is so incredibly obvious. Choose one of the irrational types, I don't care which one as long as you stop this nonsense about being an INTj.

[MysticSonic]

Well, it's actually possible for me to be a 5w6, too(and at times makes more sense internally.) It's just something I've never been able to come to a full conclusion about. Type 5 just always seemed far too impersonal for myself to be, so I just opted for 9, but I suppose very people are really as neurotic and introverted as the 5 is commonly described.

[Phaedrus]

you don't seem to listen. He said he's a 4w5 ISFp-Si.

And I say that he is not. There are no ISFps in the group of 4s.

What basis do you have to doubt him besides that his information doesn't match your model?

Let me remind you that it is certainly not my model.

[UDP]

I doubt ISFps would ever be 1s, and I think their incidence of 9ness far exceeds the times that you would find them as 2s(though 2 would undoubtedly be the second most common type.)

ISFps are much more 2w3 than 2w1, IME.

[MysticSonic]

"ISFps are much more 2w3 than 2w1, IME."

Yeah.

[Joy]

agree with Ezra (except about LIE 8's, as always)

Indeed. But I just can't imagine an 8 with weak Se, even if they value it. Can you? If so, how? Please, enlighten me.

No. I've already done so too many times.

[FDG]

No ISTj can be a 9.

I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.

It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.

This is a blanket, unproven statement. I know an ISTj 9, reality>your head.

[FDG]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

[Ezra]

I'm interested as to why you can't see an ISFp-Fe as a 4w3? I remember your own enneagram/socionics correlation thread and agreed with the majority of your correlations so this one interests me (i.e in your last thread you attributed INFjs and INFps to 4 and I believe the same) I attribute 4 to introverted and ethical types. I didn't explain what I meant in the previous post by "artistic" image and can see how that didn't make any sense now. By that I meant that ISFp-Fes are prone to be moody (high ups and low downs), emotionally expressive, and prone to using art as an outlet for their repressed emotions... as well as being prone to excessive self-indulgence when unhealthy - and this all seems very 4ish. Admittedly I haven't typed enough ISFps in real life to be completely positive of this and so I'm open to new information!

Since you're a 4 yourself, you probably understand them more. But I personally can't see 4s being that good with Si. I'm pretty sure Ni is dominant in every 4.

I know at least two LIEs that are clearly 8s: a friend of mine IRL, and Expat.

Have you ever met Expat? He doesn't have an 8ish vibe at all, and he is certainly not "clearly an 8".

It is statements like the one you just made that proves beyond reasonable doubt that you have completely misunderstood what and are about. Back to the study chamber, Ezra!

Ti is about systems and organisation of information. This is what you value, and what you are adept in.

you don't seem to listen. He said he's a 4w5 ISFp-Si.

He's wrong. Phaedrus is right.

ISFps are much more 2w3 than 2w1, IME.

I'm not sure there is such a thing.

No. I've already done so too many times.

No you haven't.

reality>your head.

The same could be said about you.

[Ezra]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

[Christy B]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

I agree that LSI probably would not be 9. My dad is LSI 1w9, and I have known another 1w9 LSI with a very strong wing- which made me at first belive he was 9. It is true in my experience that the 9s I have known have had pretty weak Se:
3 isfp, 2 infp, 2 enfj, 1 estj, 2 istp, 1 esfj (I think?)

[Phaedrus]

No ISTj can be a 9.

I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.

It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.

This is a blanket, unproven statement. I know an ISTj 9, reality>your head.

A subtype of a type should never be so different from the core type that it becomes unrecognizable. If we allow that to happen, we would turn typology into something resemblant of astrology. We can either choose to regard the IP temperament as the "essence" of type 9, or we could perhaps choose to regard IF as its essence. But why should we allow any IJ type to join that group? What would be the purpose of such a "generosity"? I can see no point in that, since in that case we would have departed too far from what is considered typical traits of type 9.

An ISFp (which is the most typical 9 of the socionic types) is simply too different from an ISTj, in my opinion. What do an ISFp and an ISTj have in common that is also a typical characteristic of type 9? Wouldn't it always be possible to find a better explanation of such a hypothetical similarity if the ISFp and the ISTj were put in different Enneagram boxes?

[TangoxOfxSin]

A lot of confusion can arise if we ourselves or people we know happen to be the rarer Enneagram demographic for each Socionics, or at least that's my view about a lot of disagreement. Reading through, there hasn't been much mention of ENFp 2s, and I'm pretty solid in the fact that I'm an ENFp and I haven't left any Enneagram test without it telling me I was some sort of 2. It seems like I'm most likely a 2w3, but that doesn't say I didn't have a strong presence of 7 and 9 in my results. For those who have looked deeper into the Enneagram, aren't there other links to other types, like 'lesser wings' so to speak? I thought I read somewhere that the types are influenced by some other variable as well as the wing. Might clear up where there seems to be a lot of odd throw in for Enneagram match ups, besides the difficulty that already comes with matching up two systems already so different.

[Phaedrus]

Since you're a 4 yourself, you probably understand them more. But I personally can't see 4s being that good with Si. I'm pretty sure Ni is dominant in every 4.

That is questionable. I know an INFj who fully identifies with type 4. She is the perfect 4 in every respect in both her own and my opinion.

Have you ever met Expat? He doesn't have an 8ish vibe at all, and he is certainly not "clearly an 8".

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

Ti is about systems and organisation of information. This is what you value, and what you are adept in.

That is comparable to saying things like "Ni is about time and imagining things". And you think that such considerations are enough to understand the functions correctly!?

[Joy]

No. I've already done so too many times.

No you haven't.

Sorry, I should have said "I've already attempted to do so too many times".

[Hitta]

Since you're a 4 yourself, you probably understand them more. But I personally can't see 4s being that good with Si. I'm pretty sure Ni is dominant in every 4.

That is questionable. I know an INFj who fully identifies with type 4. She is the perfect 4 in every respect in both her own and my opinion.

Have you ever met Expat? He doesn't have an 8ish vibe at all, and he is certainly not "clearly an 8".

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

Ti is about systems and organisation of information. This is what you value, and what you are adept in.

That is comparable to saying things like "Ni is about time and imagining things". And you think that such considerations are enough to understand the functions correctly!?

The 4 is probably INFp(example of people mixing up J/P). Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

Ti is about order and disorder, Ni is about the new and the old. Ne is about absolutism and relativism.

[machintruc]

These correlations are based on experience (i.e. persons I have known and typed, and some expectancy), and have some accuracy (I think).

ILE 5 9
LII 5
ESE 2 3
SEI 4 9

SLE 7 8
LSI 1 8
EIE 2 6
IEI 4 9

LIE 3 5 6 7 8
ILI 4 9
SEE 2 7 9
ESI 6 8

LSE 1 3 8
SLI 5 9
IEE 2 9
EII 1 2 5 6

[Phaedrus]

The 4 is probably INFp(example of people mixing up J/P).

No. I have investigated that particular problem in depth in her case, and she is not an INFp. She is definitely an INFj in every respect too. The arguments for INFj > INFp are very strong in her case, and by that I mean all aspects of her type.

Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

Well, if you start questioning Expat's type, there is no point in having a discussion about this. No one has any reason what so ever to be in doubt about Expat's type. Take his ENTj-ness for granted, and if that assumption leads to a contradiction somewhere in your understanding of the types, then the mistake is most likely yours and you should try to find where you have made a false assumption or inference.

Ti is about order and disorder, Ni is about the new and the old. Ne is about absolutism and relativism.

Such phrases are almost totally meaningless without concrete examples relating to the types.

[Ezra]

A lot of confusion can arise if we ourselves or people we know happen to be the rarer Enneagram demographic for each Socionics, or at least that's my view about a lot of disagreement. Reading through, there hasn't been much mention of ENFp 2s, and I'm pretty solid in the fact that I'm an ENFp and I haven't left any Enneagram test without it telling me I was some sort of 2. It seems like I'm most likely a 2w3, but that doesn't say I didn't have a strong presence of 7 and 9 in my results. For those who have looked deeper into the Enneagram, aren't there other links to other types, like 'lesser wings' so to speak? I thought I read somewhere that the types are influenced by some other variable as well as the wing. Might clear up where there seems to be a lot of odd throw in for Enneagram match ups, besides the difficulty that already comes with matching up two systems already so different.

There are a lot of different factors. Besides your two wings, there are stackings to consider, making a huge total of different types.

That is questionable. I know an INFj who fully identifies with type 4. She is the perfect 4 in every respect in both her own and my opinion.

What I meant was that Ni is stronger in the 4 than Si is.

But then you could ask yourself why someone who places so much value on Ni would devalue it.

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

You didn't answer my question. Have you met Expat in real life?

That is comparable to saying things like "Ni is about time and imagining things". And you think that such considerations are enough to understand the functions correctly!?

No, but if you read the Ti base function description on wikisocion, it describes you perfectly. Although I disagree, I understand exactly why Slacker Mom thinks you're an LSI. I can understand why she thinks you're her conflictor. I could easily see you as my conflictor. Complete clash of values.

No. I've already done so too many times.

No you haven't.

Sorry, I should have said "I've already attempted to do so too many times".

Okay, fair enough. Sorry we couldn't come to an agreement. Nonetheless, I'd really appreciate it if you found any of the topics in which you attempted to explain to me how an 8 can have weak Se. Adequate or not, I want to see if you've done so.

The 4 is probably INFp(example of people mixing up J/P).

Or not. People don't just mix up two socionics types like these two. Either you have Ni and Fe ego block, or Fi and Ne ego block. People who mix them up are using dichotomies to determine their type, and in socionics, that is not the correct way.

Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

And you call yourself an ILI. Where's your Te?

These correlations are based on experience (i.e. persons I have known and typed, and some expectancy), and have some accuracy (I think).

ILE 5 9
LII 5
ESE 2 3
SEI 4 9

SLE 7 8
LSI 1 8
EIE 2 6
IEI 4 9

LIE 3 5 6 7 8
ILI 4 9
SEE 2 7 9
ESI 6 8

LSE 1 3 8
SLI 5 9
IEE 2 9
EII 1 2 5 6

For Alpha, I don't really see ILE 9, and you know my response to SEI 4. For Beta, I don't have any qualms, although I think perhaps 3 is very likely for EIE. For Gamma, I think you're quite off the mark with most of your stypings. I have difficulty seeing an EJ 7, and hence an LIE 7. 8 I'm still unsure about. I also have major problems with ESI 8, and SEE 9, and minor problems with SEE 2 and ILI 4 or 9. ILI I think is much more suited to a 5. For Delta, I'm not too fussed.

[Expat]

Also, I've never been convinced that Expat is an ENTj. I mean he may be, but I don't really get the vibe from him for some reason.

*whew* I'm very glad you think so. I wouldn't want to be the kind of person you describe "ENTjs" as being.

[Phaedrus]

Expat is still an 8. Ask him if you don't believe me. He, in fact, comes across as very similar to my real life ENTj friend, who definitely is an 8.

You didn't answer my question. Have you met Expat in real life?

No, but I have met my ENTj friend in real life many, many times, and I can tell for sure that he and Expat are the same type by the structure and content of Expat's posts. There is no lack of information on Expat's person, and what there is is more than enough to enable me to reach that conclusion.

if you read the Ti base function description on wikisocion, it describes you perfectly.

1. That is incorrect.
2. Even if it was correct, you wouldn't be able to determine that.

Although I disagree, I understand exactly why Slacker Mom thinks you're an LSI. I can understand why she thinks you're her conflictor. I could easily see you as my conflictor. Complete clash of values.

Such arguments are total crap. And what Slacker Mom may think of my type is of course totally uninteresting and irrelevant.

[Ezra]

No, but I have met my ENTj friend in real life many, many times, and I can tell for sure that he and Expat are the same type by the structure and content of Expat's posts. There is no lack of information on Expat's person, and what there is is more than enough to enable me to reach that conclusion.

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

Such arguments are total crap. And what Slacker Mom may think of my type is of course totally uninteresting and irrelevant.

If you're her supposed Mirage, why do you clash so much?

[FDG]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

Wikisocion isn't the ultimate source for every description - and you lose even more credibility if you think a description that names such things as "LSIs do not share information they think is valuable. Often this means they will not share the amount of money that they have or passwords to their computer." <--???

"Unlike their territorial mirror (LSE), the LSI enjoys creating a comfortable,"<-- LSE mirror??

"Failure to meet these goals causes the LSI to express anger and lose control of his emotions in the form of a seemingly childish tantrum."<-- childish tantrum? that can't be type related, please

I'm not going on.

[Ezra]

9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.

Why do they lack aptitude in Se. Se is not necessarily about getting other people to do things for you, but also about self-control etc etc. It's very hard to argue with somebody that, knowing nothing, acts like he knows everything. We should save some money, build a socionics asylum, and put you, phaedrus, and machintruc all day arguing in there.

Fabio, read this, then - using it to pull out quotes to prove that LSI and 9 correlate - try and convince me you know an LSI 9. If you still argue with me after seeing this, there is seriously something wrong with your ability to accept facts. LSIs cannot be 9s.

Wikisocion isn't the ultimate source for every description - and you lose even more credibility if you think a description that names such things as "LSIs do not share information they think is valuable. Often this means they will not share the amount of money that they have or passwords to their computer." <--???

"Unlike their territorial mirror (LSE), the LSI enjoys creating a comfortable,"<-- LSE mirror??

"Failure to meet these goals causes the LSI to express anger and lose control of his emotions in the form of a seemingly childish tantrum."<-- childish tantrum? that can't be type related, please

I'm not going on.

Okay, as far as I can go to agree with you is by using this:

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/chwings.htm

The description of the 9w8 on there.

But really, I would honestly like to know how this guy can be 9 with strong Se, when 9s are characterised by weaker Se.

I would like to agree with you, I would. But I just can't see how I can. It makes no sense in my head at all. Make it make sense, and you might convince me.

[Expat]

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

What I find interesting is that you only look at the reasons why I can't be an 8 in your view, but pay not attention to the many reasons why I can't see myself as 5 or 6. I find it much easier to agree that I am not an 8, than to agree that I am a 5 or 6.

[Ezra]

I don't give a shit about your friend, but I've met Expat, and I find it hard to believe he's an 8. I won't doubt LIE, because there's no reason for me to do so. But there is for 8. 1w9, 5w6 and 6w5 I see as possibilities for him.

What I find interesting is that you only look at the reasons why I can't be an 8 in your view, but pay not attention to the many reasons why I can't see myself as 5 or 6. I find it much easier to agree that I am not an 8, than to agree that I am a 5 or 6.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

[Joy]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

[Expat]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Yes. Because, as I have already mentioned, Fives are directly derived from Jung's Introverted Thinking type. This is painfully obvious if you read Jung's and the Enneagram texts. That is why both LIIs and ILIs fit into it, because if you read Jung's description through socionics eyes, he was describing real-life LIIs and ILIs -- "thinkers who are introverted".

The description of 5 is inconsistent with EJ temperament.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

Then either

- you don't really understand me and my motivations
- your own version of what a 5 is, is different from what is described in even very lengthy profiles online.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's not helpful to look for it reading 5 or 5w6 profiles.

Te may be a 5 "thing", but a 5 is not a Te EJ.

[Ezra]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Actually, after having talked to Salawa briefly just now, I've decided you're probably right. Not only that, but that there is a distinct Ti > Te preference in many if not most.

[Ezra]

Five seems much more about IxTx than Te, to me. I can sort of see some IxFx's fitting it to, perhaps.

Yes. Because, as I have already mentioned, Fives are directly derived from Jung's Introverted Thinking type. This is painfully obvious if you read Jung's and the Enneagram texts. That is why both LIIs and ILIs fit into it, because if you read Jung's description through socionics eyes, he was describing real-life LIIs and ILIs -- "thinkers who are introverted".

The description of 5 is inconsistent with EJ temperament.

But Te is the ultimate 5 thing. And why don't you believe that you have the motivation of acquisition of knowledge? Isn't that what Te is about? And it's what the 5 is about. Everything about the 5w6 chimes true for you in my eyes. Your demeanour, your posts, your methods and your general vibe. It fits perfectly.

Then either

- you don't really understand me and my motivations
- your own version of what a 5 is, is different from what is described in even very lengthy profiles online.

If you really want to know what makes me tick, it's not helpful to look for it reading 5 or 5w6 profiles.

Te may be a 5 "thing", but a 5 is not a Te EJ.

Okay, fair enough. What about 1w9 or 6w5?

[Expat]

Okay, fair enough. What about 1w9 or 6w5?

I've already addressed 6 before.

Look, 6 corresponds well to ESIs. To the extent that LIEs share functional preferences with ESIs, there will be similarities. Especially in the case of people who have Fi as PoLR, a Fi dual-seeking person may appear as a 6. But that doesn't change the fact that if you analyse what really motivates LIEs and where they are strong and/or weak, it's not the same as 6s.

Just like I don't share the weaknesses or strengths. If you try to understand me - as I really am - using 6, you won't get it right.

1 makes more sense but I won't address now the problems I see with it. Later.

[FDG]

Te is the ultimate 5 "thing"? Is it purchased in a videogame store? Or maybe in the new preppy mall?

Seriously now, I agree with Expat that the 5 description is a direct translation of Jung's introverted thinking. I personally don't have any problem seeing Expat as an 8w9 after having met him, actually I can't see him as a 1 at all - zero nervous energy, and no uptightness - plus, as another point to subtract to that hypothesis, 1s in my experience strongly tend towards being skinny.

[Phaedrus]

If you're her supposed Mirage, why do you clash so much?

That's an interesting question I have thought of myself more than once. None of the ENFps I know IRL irritates me nearly as much as she does.

[Dioklecian]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

[machintruc]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

These correlations are actually just a newbie trap.

[Dioklecian]

By the way, I like the design of your website, simple yet sophisticated. (@hitta)

[Dioklecian]

I find the two versions for each confusing. I find the correlations at PTypes very good.

These correlations are actually just a newbie trap.

How come? I find that they correlate ok with the emotional state of the types I have observed.

[Ezra]

Okay. I can see 8w9 for Expat now when I really think about it. Obviously not 8w7, but 8w9 I can see. Okay. I concede.

[Hitta]

For some reason I get the "economical" ESTj vibe from Expat.

[Dioklecian]

Hitta I have been trying to ask this question elsewhere, if imay ask again, what do you base your type descriptions on?