Correlations between Socionics and Enneagram types (old discussions)

[UDP]

Mmm, 9w1 Fi subtype EIIs

[Ezra]

That your ideal, Courage?

[Ezra]

My dad is an SEI 4. Really and truly. The other SEI I know is definitely a 9 but my dad is a 4.

No, he isn't. It is totally impossible for a SEI to be a 4. Every 4, without exceptions, is an intuitive type.

Well my dad likes to feel special so he'll be glad to know he's the only SEI 4 in the world!

I have to agree with Phaedrus here. It simply wouldn't make sense to have a sensing 4. The 4 is characterised by intuition. It is what makes them believe they're individual and it's what makes them actually individual when they are; you take away a 4's sense of vision, and you take away the heart of the 4. Your dad is an SEI or he is a 4. He cannot be both.

[Gilly]

What you believe is also irrelevant. Only truth counts,

lol

[Minde]

INTjs and INFjs will often leave things to the last minute, because they have strong Ni.

So... you're saying strong Ni can lead to procrastination?

[UDP]

That your ideal, Courage?

I cannot really say

But I know Fi subtypes are very nice, IME.

We will see

[Gilly]

INTjs and INFjs will often leave things to the last minute, because they have strong Ni.

So... you're saying strong Ni can lead to procrastination?

Only if the goal is to put it off as long as possible. The point is that they will do it because unlike, say, an ESE or LSE, they have a comfortable estimation of how long it will take them, and can let it slide for a little while without feeling like it's getting out of hand or potentially not getting done.

[Minde]

INTjs and INFjs will often leave things to the last minute, because they have strong Ni.

So... you're saying strong Ni can lead to procrastination?

Only if the goal is to put it off as long as possible. The point is that they will do it because unlike, say, an ESE or LSE, they have a comfortable estimation of how long it will take them, and can let it slide for a little while without feeling like it's getting out of hand or potentially not getting done.

I meant Ni in general, not just INxjs.


Actually, I was thinking specifically of ENxjs

[eunice]

That your ideal, Courage?

I cannot really say

But I know Fi subtypes are very nice, IME.

We will see

yeah.
What is your opinion about Ne subtypes? Just to hear the opinion of an ESTj.

[Expat]

I also have difficulty with the concept of a SEI being a 4.

Sure, if you stretch the concept of subtypes, you could say that a SEI-Fe would identify with a 4 - but then the question is, why would he not identify with 9? 9 is all about Si + Fe. I'd expect a SEI-Fe to be torn between 9 and 4, at the very least.

[Expat]

1 Ni, Ne
2 Te, Ti, Se
3 Ni
4 Te, Ti, Se, probably Si
5 Se, Fe, Fi
6 Compatible with every function I think
7 Probably Te, Ti
8 Fi, Si, Ni
9 Se, Te, Ti

Is out of the question.

That doesn't look too bad.

The one that I think is weakest is Ni for 3. 3s -- "the Achievers" - are about Fe + Se + Ni, and imo they are most typically EIEs of the "yuppie" sort, a very, very common kind of person to meet in large corporations. So, it doesn't seem impossible to me that some IEIs may also adopt something like a 3 personality - although, of course, it could be argued that those are actually 4w3.

[Expat]

For what it's worth, in my case:

Types where I can see something of me:

- 1, 5, 8, perhaps 6, and a bit of 7

Types where I can see very little of me, or near nothing:

- 2, 4, 9

3 is a special case -- I can identify with the behavior, but not if the core motivation behind the behavior is emotional validation from others.

[Ezra]

For what it's worth, in my case:

Types where I can see something of me:

- 1, 5, 8, perhaps 6, and a bit of 7

Types where I can see very little of me, or near nothing:

- 2, 4, 9

Then it makes very little sense that you should think of yourself as an 8w9. 8w9s aren't 8w9s because they're not 8w7s; they're 8w9s because they show traits of 8, 9 and 7 respectively. For example, while an 8w9 remains and 8, they will be quieter and more gentle than the 8w7 (at least it would be very hard not to see a quieter, gentler 8w9). There will be a variety of other traits that reign true with the 8w9 but not the 8w7, who is an altogether different breed.

My guess, Expat, is that you are a 6w5 with either 1 or 8 in your trifix, as well as 3 (you identify with neither 2 or 4).

3 is a special case -- I can identify with the behavior, but not if the core motivation behind the behavior is emotional validation from others.

Most people should be able to identify with 3, 6 and 9 to some extent; at least more than they would the other types. This is because these are the traditional three ways of being as humans.

[Blaze]

Being ILE is a condition?

actually in some ways, it is lol.

[Expat]

I think this bit:

8w9s aren't 8w9s because they're not 8w7s; they're 8w9s because they show traits of 8, 9 and 7 respectively.

Is not very consistent with this other bit:

For example, while an 8w9 remains and 8, they will be quieter and more gentle than the 8w7 (at least it would be very hard not to see a quieter, gentler 8w9). There will be a variety of other traits that reign true with the 8w9 but not the 8w7, who is an altogether different breed.

8 and 9 are very different types; so I don't really see how a "pure" 8 could identify with a "pure" 9.

I understand, as you put in the second quote, that an 8w9 is "quieter and more gentle" than an 8w7; but not that any 8 could really see himself in the "peacemaker" 9.

[Ezra]

I think this bit:

8w9s aren't 8w9s because they're not 8w7s; they're 8w9s because they show traits of 8, 9 and 7 respectively.

Is not very consistent with this other bit:

For example, while an 8w9 remains and 8, they will be quieter and more gentle than the 8w7 (at least it would be very hard not to see a quieter, gentler 8w9). There will be a variety of other traits that reign true with the 8w9 but not the 8w7, who is an altogether different breed.

8 and 9 are very different types; so I don't really see how a "pure" 8 could identify with a "pure" 9.

I understand, as you put in the second quote, that an 8w9 is "quieter and more gentle" than an 8w7; but not that any 8 could really see himself in the "peacemaker" 9.

No, but an 8w9 would feel more affinity with a 9 than with a 7. Also, an 8w9 sometimes doesn't look like an 8 until you get to the heart of them.

[machintruc]

I also have difficulty with the concept of a SEI being a 4.

Sure, if you stretch the concept of subtypes, you could say that a SEI-Fe would identify with a 4 - but then the question is, why would he not identify with 9? 9 is all about Si + Fe. I'd expect a SEI-Fe to be torn between 9 and 4, at the very least.

secondary is not exactly like primary. I have known enough SEI-4 girls to deduce this.

For example : SEI aren't as sociable as ESE, and I don't think I'm as creative and imaginative as ILE.

SEI socialise mostly because they find pleasure in it. Besides, SEI are as cold as ILI.

[Phaedrus]

secondary is not exactly like primary. I have known enough SEI-4 girls to deduce this.

For example : SEI aren't as sociable as ESE, and I don't think I'm as creative and imaginative as ILE.

SEI socialise mostly because they find pleasure in it. Besides, SEI are as cold as ILI.

Such a reasoning is totally irrelevant. Type 4 is so clearly described as an intuitive type that we are entitled to say that type 4 is defined as an intuitive type. Therefore no SEI can be a 4. And every argument that leads to a different conclusion is necessarily incorrect. Your reasoning are necessarily based on false premises, and it is time to correct those.

[Expat]

secondary is not exactly like primary. I have known enough SEI-4 girls to deduce this.

For example : SEI aren't as sociable as ESE, and I don't think I'm as creative and imaginative as ILE.

SEI socialise mostly because they find pleasure in it. Besides, SEI are as cold as ILI.

Even if that were true - and I dispute a few bits - it may account why a SEI would identify with 4, not why they'd prefer it over 9. 9 is not about being sociable, it's about disliking negative emotional environments as in confrontations.

[Gilly]

Besides, SEI are as cold as ILI.

Say what?

[redbaron]

Anyways, OCD is about seratonin and norepinephrine... not type. Some types are more likely than others to seem OCD when they're unbalanced, but true OCD can occur in an ILE just as easily as any other type.

(I know there are a lot of people who would disagree and say that brain disorders are type related... to them I say once again... Some types are more likely than others to seem OCD when they're unbalanced.)

Have you guys read this:

[web:b82d1a9537]http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtTina.asp[/web:b82d1a9537]

[aestrivex]

Anyways, OCD is about seratonin and norepinephrine... not type. Some types are more likely than others to seem OCD when they're unbalanced, but true OCD can occur in an ILE just as easily as any other type.

(I know there are a lot of people who would disagree and say that brain disorders are type related... to them I say once again... Some types are more likely than others to seem OCD when they're unbalanced.)

Have you guys read this:

[web:680c8d5f32]http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtTina.asp[/web:680c8d5f32]

this is such a load of BS.

[redbaron]

Just wondered if anyone had read it. I have no opinion about whether or not it's accurate.

[Ezra]

this is such a load of BS.

Why? It's perfectly plausible.

[Joy]

I agree it's BS. There's no category for someone with low dopamine, norepinephrine, and seratonin. Lol.

[Ezra]

I agree it's BS. There's no category for someone with low dopamine, norepinephrine, and seratonin. Lol.

That's because they don't exist. If you didn't have that, there's something wrong with you; i.e. you are inhuman.

[Hitta]

Took a crack at enneagram correlations, although I think theres a few things that may need changing.

Enneagram Correlations

Alpha
ENTp-5w4, 4w5
INTj-5w4, 5w6 (rarer)
ESFj 1w2, 2w1
ISFp 2w1, 1w2

Beta
ESTp- 8w7,7w8
ISTj- 7w8, 8w7
ENFj- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5
INFp- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5

Gamma
ENTj-6w5, 5w6
INTp-5w6, 6w5
ESFp- 7w6, 6w7
ISFj- 6w7, 7w6

Delta
ESTj 8w9, 8w9
ISTp 9w8, 9w8
ENFp 9w1, 1w9
INFj 1w9, 9w1

I had to look a lot of the descriptions up, hope these are correct.

[munenori2]

How strong of a correlation do you think these are? For INFj, it sounds roughly about right. I think 2w1 sounded like it could fit as well. Are certain enneagram types impossible (or the height of unlikelihood) for a given socionic type? Not that I know much at all about this stuff.

[redbaron]

ISFp Si-subtype can be 9w1
ISFp Fe-subtype can be 4w5

Some may disagree but I've experienced those correlations to be accurate.

[Ezra]

Alpha
ENTp-5w4, 4w5
INTj-5w4, 5w6 (rarer)
ESFj 1w2, 2w1
ISFp 2w1, 1w2

Beta
ESTp- 8w7,7w8
ISTj- 7w8, 8w7
ENFj- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5
INFp- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5

Gamma
ENTj-6w5, 5w6
INTp-5w6, 6w5
ESFp- 7w6, 6w7
ISFj- 6w7, 7w6

Delta
ESTj 8w9, 8w9
ISTp 9w8, 9w8
ENFp 9w1, 1w9
INFj 1w9, 9w1

With the exception of 4w5 for ILE, 1w2 to SEI, LSI for 7w8, IEI for 3w4, ESI for 7w6 and IEE for 9w1 and 1w9, I'd say you haven't done too badly.

Quadrically, I think most:

Alphas will be 2s, 7s and 9s
Betas will be 3s, 4s and 8s
Gammas will be 1s, 5s and 6s
Deltas will be 1s, 3s and 9s

[Joy]

I can't see a healthy LIE as an 5w6 or 6w5. I mean, I'm sure it happens. I just can't imagine how.

[Danielle]

Why not Joy? Where is the conflict?

[Expat]

Not EJ.

[Phaedrus]

The ones in bold are impossible. They absolutely cannot be true. I think there are probably more impossible combinations in your list, but it's a start.

Alpha
ENTp-5w4, 4w5
INTj-5w4, 5w6 (rarer)
ESFj 1w2, 2w1
ISFp 2w1, 1w2

Beta
ESTp- 8w7,7w8
ISTj- 7w8, 8w7
ENFj- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5
INFp- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5

Gamma
ENTj-6w5, 5w6
INTp-5w6, 6w5
ESFp- 7w6, 6w7
ISFj- 6w7, 7w6

Delta
ESTj 8w9, 8w9
ISTp 9w8, 9w8
ENFp 9w1, 1w9
INFj 1w9, 9w1

And people should learn once and for all that many ENTjs are 8s. That fact cannot be doubted.

[Expat]

Alphas will be 2s, 7s and 9s
Betas will be 3s, 4s and 8s
Gammas will be 1s, 5s and 6s
Deltas will be 1s, 3s and 9s

My most obvious disagreement has to do with 7 -- I think 7's best correlation is with the EP temperament, rather than with quadras or even particular functions.

[Phaedrus]

My most obvious disagreement has to do with 7 -- I think 7's best correlation is with the EP temperament, rather than with quadras or even particular functions.

Definitely so. No IJ can be a 7.

[misutii]

Some qualms...

ENTps can be 8w7s. 4w5 doesn't make sense

ENFjs aren't 4w5s. Maybe one subtype is 9, not sure about the other.

ISTjs = 9w8 or 9w1 or 1w9... not completely sure but definitely NOT 8s or 7s

INTp-Ni subtypes tend to be 5w4

I don't think any INFps are 3w4s.

ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe

INFj-Ne subtypes are 4w5

[Phaedrus]

No ISTj can be a 9.

[Ezra]

The ones in bold are impossible. They absolutely cannot be true. I think there are probably more impossible combinations in your list, but it's a start.

I totally agree with you.

And people should learn once and for all that many ENTjs are 8s. That fact cannot be doubted.

Why can't it be doubted?

My most obvious disagreement has to do with 7 -- I think 7's best correlation is with the EP temperament, rather than with quadras or even particular functions.

I think perhaps the ESE looks quite like a 7. Most would be 2w3s or 3w2s. But the best fit for an ILE is easily 7w6.

ISTjs = 9w8 or 9w1 or 1w9... not completely sure but definitely NOT 8s or 7s

8s can easily be LSIs. Saddam Hussein is the best example. 8w7 LSI.

ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe

Believe what you will - there is no sensing 4. This is the same likelihood as an IJ 7.

No ISTj can be a 9.

Absolutely right. It is fucking ridiculous to assume that the 9 can ever be an LSI.

[misutii]

ISTjs = 9w8 or 9w1 or 1w9... not completely sure but definitely NOT 8s or 7s

8s can easily be LSIs. Saddam Hussein is the best example. 8w7 LSI.

ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe

Believe what you will - there is no sensing 4. This is the same likelihood as an IJ 7.

No ISTj can be a 9.

Absolutely right. It is fucking ridiculous to assume that the 9 can ever be an LSI.

Is Saddam Hussein actually the best example of an 8w7 LSI? Why not SLE 8w7? 8w7 and 7w8 seem to utterly contradict introversion.

ISFp-Fes are often confused for INFp-Fes and vice-versa, certain ISFps seem to have an outwardly "artistic" image. This points to 4. I think you're placing too much value on the effect of sensory/intuition and enneagram type... I see the types as blending into one another based on temperament.... so i.e.

IPs~~~~~~~~~~
ISTp-Te: 6w5
ISTp-Si: 9w8
ISFp-Si: 9w1
ISFp-Fe: 4w3/3w4(maybe)
INFp-Fe: 4w3
INFp-Ni: 4w5
INTp-Ni:5w4
INTp-Te: 5w6

I'm not completely certain of all of these but see what I'm getting at?